Episode 128: The Broly Trilogy

[00:00:19] Speaker A: On this episode of Odd Trilogies, Logan and Andy prepare themselves for a threat unlike they've ever faced before. An anime trilogy whose total runtime is less than three hours. Can they match the runtime of the films with this episode? [00:00:39] Speaker B: If we go as long as these movies put together, that's too much. That's too much time. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Too much. It's more than they're worth. [00:00:46] Speaker B: It really is. I feel like we've made some contentious points over the years about our opinions on certain films. I would hope that the first film, what we talk about today and our opinions of that is not considered a hot take in 2026. [00:01:01] Speaker A: But unfortunately, this is Dragon Ball Z fans we're talking about. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Just anime fans in general, and especially now. That was it. I mean, we're all. We're both Dragon Ball Z fans. Like, we're all like, what, 60? So, like. [00:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:01:16] Speaker B: we have lived through it. We have lived through how many video games? How many different interpretations of the same stories you've seen countless times? [00:01:24] Speaker A: How many transformations? [00:01:25] Speaker B: How many transformations? [00:01:26] Speaker A: How many different hair colors? How many times can Krillin die? [00:01:30] Speaker B: Not enough. I think in. Yeah, Rest in peace, Toriyama. But I think his answer to that would be not enough. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:01:41] Speaker A: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:01:42] Speaker B: And not Odd Trilogies. We take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, thematic elements, or just numerical order, and we discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding each film. And originally, this slot was for an episode for the Mononoke trilogy, which is a Japanese animated trilogy that starts in 2024. There's a film in 2025, and then their third film is out in 2026, but it's only out in Japan at the moment. [00:02:09] Speaker A: We're done goofed on that one. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah. The other two films were kind of a Netflix original exclusive for the States. [00:02:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Netflix at least marketed them as a exclusive global release. They had already released in theaters in Japan months before. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So we just assumed, which we shouldn't have, that it had already been out in Japan a few months prior. And then the May release was going to be for Netflix. But no, the Japan release was late May. [00:02:36] Speaker A: Yep. [00:02:37] Speaker B: We found out in one hell of a way of just like, oh, I think I just looked at it and I was like, well, what do we want to do instead? And we decided to fill this slot now that we've, you know, just discussed the rise of Spielberg, and we have plenty on the docket for July and August, we thought in between all of our guest stars as well as tie in big filmmakers. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:03:02] Speaker B: We thought to kind of replace Mononoke for the time being, we would pick something that is easy, that is silly, fun, and is tied to both of our childhoods in some way, shape or form, but also is a bit of a blind spot because we really hadn't seen these films in a while or just hadn't seen them at all, which. The films in question today are Dragon Ball Z's Broly Trilogy, which, if you don't know, Dragon Ball Z, a very popular manga and anime series that the Anime ran from 1989 to 1996 in Japan and then around 1998. 1999 is when the English dub got picked up by Cartoon Network's Toonami Block. And that basically propelled Dragon Ball Z into more of a global stardom. [00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah, probably. I would guess at least culturally, if not financially, the most successful anime in the West. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Certainly like one of the only anime you could drop the name of. And the average person would be like, oh, yeah, I know what you're talking about. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Like, to put it this way, like through the 2000s post, you know, Dragon Ball Z getting towards its end of its dub run. [00:04:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:13] Speaker B: You know, the Shonen Jump magazine. There's gonna be a lot of things that like, hopefully are not too confusing when we discuss Dragon Ball Z. Yeah. [00:04:19] Speaker A: There's only so much context we can lay. [00:04:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we will give, you know, just prior conversationally, this trilogy takes place like basically halfway to the kind of the latter half of the series. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:33] Speaker B: So we will do a quick rundown of what you should expect. But just for example, of just Dragon Ball Z's popularity in the 2000s, there was a thing called the. The big three of like manga and anime at the time, especially with Shonen, which was basically one piece, which is still going. Yeah. Bleach, which, you know, came and went for a while, but now is back [00:04:55] Speaker A: huge in the 2000s. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Yes. And it basically didn't get to finish its anime run, but now is currently. And then Naruto, or most people might know him now as Boruto's dad. But when those three were coming out and were considered the big three of Shonen Anime usually, if anyone said. But what about Dragon Ball Z? Dragon Ball Z was in its own category. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. It's kind of like separate. Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker B: There really wasn't anything else in Shonen at the time Dragon Ball Z was going that felt like it could really go toe to toe with it. Yeah, especially during the height of its popularity. Yeah, it's a lot like what Pokemon was for. It's kind of like subsection. [00:05:32] Speaker A: While Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z subsequently didn't really invent the shonen genre. [00:05:38] Speaker B: No. [00:05:39] Speaker A: It popularized many of the tropes that we see in all kinds of popular anime today. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:45] Speaker A: And just the sort of like that whole power scaling dynamic and levels and transformations and multi episodic fights. Multi episodic fights. Villains with multiple forms. Yes. Yeah. Dragon Ball kind of kicked a lot of that, particularly with Z, which marked kind of a change of genre from the original Dragon Ball anime, which we won't really get into. [00:06:12] Speaker B: But yeah, another thing too, in case you might not know, because I think a lot of there's good, good chance a lot of people don't. But like, Dragon Ball Z is a sequel series to a series called Dragon Ball which wasn't very sci fi heavy. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it was kind of more like a lightly fantastical martial arts series. [00:06:27] Speaker B: There are dinosaurs, there are cat people, demons, a bunch of different types of martial arts and mag kind of power level. The powers in that are not the same as what Dragon Ball Z would ultimately become. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Dragon Ball Z becomes like a galactic superhero show kind of. [00:06:43] Speaker B: It becomes. Aw shit. His color is technically more powerful than my color. I'm fucked. I mean, that's Dragon Ball Z. Whether that doesn't sound right or not. That is actually. And yeah, we just thought, you know, in terms of, you know, Dragon Ball being kind of a series that even right now, when it comes to popularity wise, I think is like, it's already been talked about that like the sequel series to Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball super is coming back in some way, shape and form as well as the fact that it's also getting a little bit of a remake on top of that. [00:07:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:20] Speaker B: And also the fact that like this year marks the 30th anniversary to the end of Dragon Ball because it ended in Japan in January of 96. It just kind of felt like, you know, a good replacement for Mononoke. Because we have such experience with Dragon Ball and also these movies, you know, at the best case scenario is that most of these films are barely more than an hour. Broly is actually one of the. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Andy noted the second longest Dragon Ball [00:07:47] Speaker B: film and 72 minutes. [00:07:50] Speaker A: 70. I think just. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah, which is crazy because you know, you would think they would get a Titan 90 out of something with Dragon Ball, but no, usually most of them were like 45, 50 minutes. And Broly is the one that is like the longest. And honestly, it makes sense because when most people talk about Dragon Ball movies, Broly is usually the one that pops into most people's heads because. [00:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, go ahead. [00:08:14] Speaker B: I was gonna say because I can go right into just trying to quickly go through the history of like the. Where the arcs are and what, you know, story wise, where we're at. But, like, is there anything else we get into that deep dive? [00:08:28] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I guess, yeah. Just to contextualize, Dragon Ball was doing movies every year, or a couple of them a year for most of its run, starting in like, I think as early as the Sand Saga, which is kind of the first arc of Dragon Ball Z. And these were mostly. I mean, most. Most of the movies kind of boil down to being kind of lengthy filler episodes, especially since, like, they're non. They're considered non canon. They don't affect the main events of what's going on in the show, and they often kind of conflict with the timeline, you know, at hand. But it's basically these movies are just kind of an opportunity for, you know, people to see characters in a diff that they like in a different kind of environment and maybe with slightly better animation because it's a. A theatrical film or an ova instead of. Instead of a weekly episode that's on a time crunch. [00:09:29] Speaker B: And also, if you're like currently watching the show at the time, but you might be behind a few episodes, the movies usually don't really discuss what's going on in the actual show. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah. While the movies take place, they don't tie in whatsoever. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So you can almost certain films, you could probably just jump in blind. [00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:48] Speaker B: And probably enjoy it in some way, shape and form. [00:09:50] Speaker A: Really. Like the main indicator of where the show is at. Like where roughly the movie probably quote unquote takes place, if it exists in the same timeline, would be who are the main characters and what transformations do they have? [00:10:07] Speaker B: Yes, honestly. Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker A: Because those are kind of the distinguishers, particularly in this trilogy. Because we start this trilogy with the first film in, which is basically in the midst of the Cell saga. And I think the last. The episode that aired right before the movie came out was basically a filler episode about Hercule, the kind of Chuck Norris riff character. Yeah. Basically joining the Cell games and testing his mettle in the fight. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. It was just before, I think the Goku Cell fight happens in the Cell games. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker B: And yeah. As a quick recap too. And again, if you don't catch all this the first time, that's fine. If you don't even catch it all. It's just. So we do our ground at work with this, at least to me. And Andy can interject as well if he disagrees. But like, Dragon Ball is like kind of comprised in my head is five big arcs. The Saiyan arc, which is the very beginning of the show, which at that point, there's no Super Saiyan. There's just Ko Ken, which is like just a red aura kind of rage energy and a Great Ape form. Because something that gets tied over from [00:11:20] Speaker A: Dragon Ball, the Sand Saga is basically just like introducing this concept that the series will run with that like, oh, Goku's an alien and there are others like him who are violent killers and they're a threat to this planet. [00:11:34] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, basically, if you are an invincible fan, very much the Viltrumites take, I think, a lot of inspiration from Saiyans. And if not, I don't believe it. There's no way they don't. [00:11:45] Speaker A: If not, you're lying. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't believe it. But yeah, the Saiyan. The Saiyan arc is introduction of a lot of big players. It makes the whole story go more sci fi and cosmic in a way. [00:11:56] Speaker A: Those who are fans of Intergalactic King Edgelord Vegeta, he is introduced as the main villain in the Saiyan arc. Yep. [00:12:04] Speaker B: And then that leads into the Frieza arc, which is basically the whole team goes into space. And when they go into space, they head onto a planet called Namek and then they basically run into the alien that eradicated the Saiyan race. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:19] Speaker B: So it becomes a thing where Vegeta, a classic Shonen trope. Vegeta, who was the villain in the last arc, has now become an ally. And then they have to fight Frieza. Introduction of Gold Hair Super Saiyan Goku. He's the first to ever do it at that point. And then the movies that we're talking about today, at least the first film takes place in the back half of the Android Cell saga, which basically, after they fight aliens and they're in space, they come back to Earth and they basically have to fight androids that are technically stronger than all of them and are constantly learning and getting bigger and badder. And that ultimately leads to the meanest and greenest of the androids, Cell, becoming the main villain of the series. And while he is basically preparing a tournament to fight everybody to show how powerful he is, around the time that's happening in the show, like on television, is when Broly is supposed to be that comes out in May of 93 or March of 93. Because the three films we're talking about today is Broly, the Legendary Super Saiyan from March of 93. Broly the second, coming from March of 1994. And then Bio Broly July 94. So in the span of a year and some change, almost a year and a half, we get a whole trilogy. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Very fast turnaround interrupted by only one non broly story. [00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:44] Speaker A: BoJack Unbound three in a series of four movies. All about Broly. Because he's that much of a hit. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Because at that point with the films too. Because another thing, by the time Dragon Ball Z stops making films for the series, it is about just under 20 films. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:03] Speaker B: And then I think when super, the sequel series starts up, it originally starts up with films to tie into it, and now we're kind of 20 plus. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Film 23. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Because it's like three Dragon Ball proper films, and then there's like 15 plus Dragon Ball Z, and then like three, maybe technically four Dragon Ball super films. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the first two films that kind of jump started the super arc were actually. They were titled Dragon Ball Z Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. But really, they're telling the first couple arcs of [00:14:39] Speaker B: Super's story because hilariously, when super finally gets put on television, it is just redoing those two films. Intelligently. [00:14:48] Speaker A: Redoing it worse. [00:14:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:52] Speaker B: I also really started strong with selling these films. [00:14:55] Speaker A: I misspoke earlier when I said that this first Broly film, the Legendary Super Saiyan, is the second longest. I think it's the second longest of the original run of Dragon ball from the 80s and 90s in the super era, the modern era, where they've done more movies, Those have been longer. [00:15:13] Speaker B: 90 to 2 hours. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Most of the original run of movies was between 45 and 70 minutes. [00:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah, they're just glorified spirit special episodes. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:23] Speaker B: That you can pay to go see in theaters or we're OVAs. Like, you're basically released in video. And by the time that Broly is coming out, they have done like, at least. At least five or six films. They actually already had a villain that got his own sequel, which. His name was cooler. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:42] Speaker B: He comes back as Chrome cooler, actually. Just cooler in general. But by this time, they are just like, usually a Dragon Ball Z film. And it still happens even after Broly and hell, during Broly, it basically happens where the. The Z. The Z fighters, which is our Dragon Ball Z team, our iconic, you know, protagonists, they're kind of doing Something very mundane, kind of doing everyday life. And then suddenly this completely new force comes out of nowhere. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:09] Speaker B: They have to take care of it. 9 times, 9.9 times out of 10, they take care of that threat by the end of it. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:16] Speaker B: And it's never discussed again. [00:16:18] Speaker A: They do some super Attack or push themselves to their next level and defeat him. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Goku finds a Deus ex machina in his pocket and goes, I can do this because of friendship. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:29] Speaker B: And that's pretty much what a Dragon Ball C film is. Pretty much from the past to the present with Broly to after that. And Broly kind of stands out as like one of the more iconic ones. Because of the villain himself. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Because at this point, a lot of the Dragon Ball Z villains in the films are other aliens, other races. More kind of maybe sometimes mystical, maybe more just like, you know, since they're going through the Android Saga. The last film before this film was about an evil Android called Android 13 who's just. I think he's called Super Android 13. If you watched it like me, if you watch the dub growing up on like VHS or DVD, they gave Super Android 13 like the worst southern accent. [00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, he's like a trucker. [00:17:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he kind of dressed like a trucker for some reason. But at that point, like they. There was no villain they were fighting that was basically like, this is a Saiyan. [00:17:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:17:31] Speaker B: So this is the very. [00:17:32] Speaker A: Well, they did have Goku's cousin or something. Turles, the guy who looks like gout. [00:17:39] Speaker B: True. Yeah, I forgot about Turles. [00:17:41] Speaker A: But they had yet to, I think, create a villain for the movies that had like maybe broken through in fans minds as like an iconic villain. [00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:53] Speaker A: None of them really stacked up to Vegeta or Frieza or even Cell. Yeah. Until Broly. [00:18:01] Speaker B: Because Broly. Yeah, because Broly's whole thing while Turles. Yes, you're right. They have done a Saiyan, evil Saiyan before in the films. Broly does something that none of them had really done yet, which is basically introduced the idea of a movie villain having the. Having the capacity to go Super Saiyan, but go to a level that we haven't seen and you ultimately will never see in the show, which pretty much as the Cell Android Saga is going. The big thing about that is that Super Saiyan as a form, while it was such a big deal, the last arc in the Cell Saga, it is a big deal, but it also. They're now fighting characters that actually can take them on in that form. Y so as the series is going on to that point, and before they go to the next level of. It's a crazy name. You might forget it. Super Saiyan 2. Before they get to the point of Super Saiyan 2, Broly gets released and basically introduces a version of Super Saiyan called Legendary Super Saiyan. [00:19:02] Speaker A: And he's distinct because he has this odd kind of greenish tinge to him, rather than the golden yellow that Goku and Vegeta and their kids have. [00:19:12] Speaker B: He's like a crazed madman. [00:19:14] Speaker A: He's kind of a berserker. Ra. He's massively muscular and gets that way when he takes this form. He kind of triples in size and his hair turns green and he's got very distinct green Ki blasts that nobody else in the show has had. [00:19:29] Speaker B: He's so buff, you can't even say he's taking steroids. Steroids are taking him at that point. He is just the level of how just detailed and puffy his whole body is, because every single. I think his wrists have abs. It is kind of this crazy thing of, you know, Goku, Vegeta, the team that even can't even do Super Saiyan all look incredible in terms of, like, they're jacked. They're at physical fitness and whatnot. And then you see this guy who's like, Jacob Elordi sized, like in relativity, [00:20:02] Speaker A: in his base form. [00:20:02] Speaker B: In his base form, and then becomes like the buffest, craziest, like, gigantic version of any kind of person you've ever seen. And the reason why he does that is one, he has a vendetta against Goku because when they were chilling, the reason why. Andy sighs is because the big emotional, like, tie as to why Broly is a villain really in this is because, one, his powers just drive him mad. It's like a prophecy that he's like, the legendary Super Saiyan. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah. He was born with an insane amount of power. And the insinuation, I guess, is kind of just that, like, anybody with that much power innately flowing through them would be driven mad. And, yeah, they talk about how the quote unquote, Legendary Super Saiyan only comes around every thousand years or something. And so Broly is prophesied to be that. [00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Which Goku was previously prophesied to be the legendary Super Saiyan in the Frieza saga, when it kind of seemed like, you know, they were kind of setting up for his Super Saiyan transformation. They're like, oh, Goku, he must be the legendary Super Saiyan. And he goes, super Saiyan. And fans at the time, were probably thinking, oh, yeah, he is the legendary Super Saiyan. And then, lo and behold, everybody else can also become a Super Saiyan. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Broly kind of brings credence back to that prophecy by being on a totally different level than other Super Saiyan. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Hilariously brings up the power levels discussion. Because early in the series, Vegeta and other Saiyans that would pop up in the show would have these scanners. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Power scanners. Or whatever. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Scouters. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Or whatever. Scouters. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And an iconic Dragon Ball Z meme early on in the series, Vegeta. [00:21:47] Speaker A: What does the Scouter say? [00:21:49] Speaker B: It's over 9,000. Like, Goku is considered a threat in the early series as an adult, when his power level is apparently over 9,000. Broly, apparently as an infant, was at a 10,000. [00:22:03] Speaker A: He was born at level 10,000. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Born at 10,000 power. So of course, as an adult, he is whatever higher that is. Scanner can't even get it. So he already is out the gate way stronger than I'm pro than any of our characters at base level. [00:22:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker B: But the true emotional tie is even though he has this mad crazed power that ties him. [00:22:25] Speaker A: It wasn't enough. [00:22:26] Speaker B: That wasn't enough because apparently he hates Goku. Mainly because our protagonist Goku, everyone knows and loves his Orange Ki. Yeah, he's this, you know, happy go lucky. Every time, you know, the world needs saving, he's there to save the day. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Dopey Superman. [00:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah, he's the dumbest version of Superman we think we've ever had. Basically, when they were children, they were set next to each other in cribs, and Goku would not stop crying, to the point where Broly has never forgotten his cry. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah, Infant Broly was traumatized by infant Goku's. [00:23:05] Speaker B: I want to also set up again. Child Broly is such a threat that you actually get to see Vegeta's father, who is King Vegeta, who is just [00:23:16] Speaker A: Vegeta with a goatee. [00:23:17] Speaker B: One of the dumbest designs. He's so funny. It's just so funny how it's just Vegeta with a goatee, is so scared of what Broly could become that they actually stab infant Broly and nearly leave him and his father Paragus to death. And Broly survives. And yet, none of that seems to be as traumatic as the fact that Goku kept him up at night when they were both infants. And it's hilarious because Goku, being as dumb as he is, has no idea why he's mad. In fact, the only reason why he's fighting Broly is because Broly is just mad. And also, he wants to fight the strongest being in the world, in the universe. And he's found it with Broly. And then so basically, the Z Fighters get pulled into this, you know. Vegeta, we need you to come back to our new planet. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah, the. The inciting incident is basically this guy named Paragus shows up on Earth. The Z Fighters are chilling, and he's like, hey, Prince Vegeta. Or maybe I guess King Vegeta now, because King Vegeta's dead. Hey, we're with the Sands. You need to come to our home planet and save us from this issue. [00:24:34] Speaker B: He's trying to rebuild. [00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And basically, Vegeta, being an arrogant asshole who loves the idea of being the Prince of all Sands, immediately takes the bait, and so do all the other Z Fighters. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Because at this point, once Vegeta loses in the first arc in the first saga and he comes back, he basically is second fiddle to Goku for the majority of. He's basically Buzz to Goku's woody for a lot of ways. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Vegeta for the majority of Dragon Ball Z, and even to this day, kind of just has this perpetual chip on his shoulder over the fact that he was born the son of the King of all Sans believes it to be his birthright to be the strongest sand. And yet he is always playing second fiddle to this country bumpkin. And here's the thing who got left [00:25:20] Speaker B: on Earth, just because that's basically how he is the entire show, doesn't mean there's not great writing for him. And I'll see. [00:25:25] Speaker A: But that is at his best. His profile. [00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He's at his best throughout the series when he is constantly being undermined because he's too confident. Some of our best moments, at least for both Andy and I, when it comes to Vegeta, are like in the latter half of the series, where at this point, Dragon Ball Z is kind of coasting to the end. [00:25:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:44] Speaker B: But they still find ways to give Vegeta some of the best moments of, like, the later, later arcs. But yeah, it's basically, yeah, Vegeta finally being like, ah, yes, no one really knows about Goku, so I can be top dog now. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Ye. [00:25:58] Speaker B: He goes into space, they go to, like, New Planet Vegeta, I think, is what they call it. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker B: And you basically find out, surprise, New Planet Vegeta doesn't exist. Paragus wants to get revenge for the fact that King Vegeta tried to kill him and Broly. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Paragus is, in fact, the only. Well, Paragus and Broly are, in fact, the only Saiyans here, and they've enslaved the population of this planet to work for them. [00:26:20] Speaker B: Which look like tiny, green. [00:26:23] Speaker A: They're little, like, bug people. [00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Little Muppet people called, like, Shigoans or Shiboyans. [00:26:31] Speaker B: Shiboyans. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Because they kind of look a little bit like. Who's the wizard that brings Boo to life? [00:26:37] Speaker A: Babidi. [00:26:38] Speaker B: They kind of look like Babidi with less wrinkles. [00:26:41] Speaker A: Not the last time we'll reference Bobbidi this episode. [00:26:43] Speaker B: No, not at all. [00:26:44] Speaker A: Bibbidi, Bobbidi. Boo. [00:26:46] Speaker B: But, yeah. So basically, you know, the Z Fighters kind of get roped up into this. So a lot of characters who really weren't interested in coming to space end up going to space. Goku is doing his own thing. Goku hilariously is introduced, going to basically, a parenting conference interview and then has to leave because, you know, planets are dying. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:06] Speaker B: And he hates wearing a suit. So he says, yes, I'll leave immediately, and goes and finds, you know, as everyone's showing up on a spaceship, he teleports from across the universe to a planet that is desolate. Desolate. [00:27:22] Speaker A: Yes. Notably, Goku is also basically the only character in Dragon Ball Z who can teleport. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, teleport to the degree that it's [00:27:30] Speaker A: like, teleport across galaxies. [00:27:32] Speaker B: Of course, this man would never need to learn how to drive or fly a plane or anything, because this man can just teleport anywhere. Because he also can teleport, like, between dimensions. He could basically teleport from at a certain point by the end of the series, can teleport to heaven or hell, if he would. [00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah, that's pretty much. He can teleport wherever. Like, anywhere he can imagine. As long as he's, like, tracking an energy source. Yes. [00:27:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:58] Speaker A: Or maybe that's just the only reason he teleports is to track energy sources, because he wants to fight strong people. [00:28:03] Speaker B: And keep in mind, he's not even overpowered yet. I guess, in the show at this point. [00:28:09] Speaker A: No, actually, at this point in the show might be the most balanced Goku ever is. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Which is why I think so many people like the Cell Saga, at least moving forward. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Because at this point in the show, like, half a dozen people are Super Saiyans. Two of them, Vegeta and Trunks, have a slightly enhanced version of Super Saiyan or a slightly stronger version. And then Goku's son, Gohan, is about to become Super Saiyan 2, which is [00:28:34] Speaker B: one of the best moments in the show. [00:28:35] Speaker A: One of the best moments in the shit. So this is probably the only time for the rest of the series that Goku is kind of like just a warrior among warriors. He is stronger and more skilled in certain ways, but, like, he's not head and shoulders above everyone else like he is for decades to come. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Well, what's funny too, is, like, I think later on, especially with, like, you know, a great example of why I think the later films, especially like, Battle the Gods and even A Resurrection F has its issues. They both, you know, make it work a little bit better, is the fact that, like, in the movies, usually the best way to kind of handle your new villain in terms of, like, what the power level kind of feels, is that you kind of throw the lesser Z Fighters at first for target practice, and then slowly build your way up to Gohan, Trunks, Vegeta, Goku, maybe even Piccolo if you're nasty. And then just like, at that point, you're like, okay, so they have to bring in Goku for this because they're kind of fucked. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Hilariously, with Broly, it starts immediately with Goku. [00:29:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Goku is kind of straight to the the most elites. [00:29:45] Speaker B: And then at some point, Broly gets kind of like, pushed aside to fight Trunks, Krillin, and Gohan. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Pushed aside? Yeah. [00:29:55] Speaker B: And then when that happens at that point, it's like, Goku's having trouble. How are the three of these gonna be able to do it? And they don't like, the big thing that's so funny about Broly that, like, you know, makes sense as to, like, back then, what people like all things. I love Broly so much. He just beats the shit, everybody. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:10] Speaker B: The thing is, is that that's all that he does for like, a solid half of the film. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I mean, that's really all he does. That's not the only thing that happens in the film, but that's about all he does is eat the tar out of everyone, which is distinct in at least in the movies, if not also the show. In that, like, you're saying, like that this formula of. Of let's start with the Z Fighters, work our way up to Goku, is kind of how things always proceed. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:40] Speaker A: And in this movie, not only do we kind of start at the top with Goku, but also Goku and everyone else, even when even with their forces combined, are just getting their asses handed to them by Broly. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:51] Speaker A: So it does feel I can, you know, you can Kind of understand, like, watching this at the time and being like, oh shit, this is different. Broly is just kicking ass. [00:31:00] Speaker B: Broly only wants Goku. [00:31:02] Speaker A: Like, so like, even Frieza was like, terrified of Goku half the time. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Like, oh, I got to pull out a new transformation if I'm going to win this. [00:31:09] Speaker B: No. [00:31:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And Broly is just like, from the get go kind of like, now, fuck you, I'm stronger. Eat concrete. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it also kind of establishes the reason why Goku gets involved is because he's told that there is a being destroying planets in a Fargo galaxy. And then it's like, what is this being that's attacking galaxies and ultimately is a Saiyan. [00:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:31] Speaker B: And it's like, why is he doing that? Because he's mad. He's just a mad crazed saying that. Just like, when he's at full power, he just has nowhere to let it out. And so he just like, lets it out on planets and ultimately destroys them. And yeah, they go straight into him wanting to fight Goku. And it becomes this whole thing of like, while there's this kind of build up as to like, you know, Paragus is telling, you know, Vegeta, haha. I brought you here just to trick you. You're an idiot. My son is the legendary Super Saiyan you've heard so much about. You're so screwed. You can't take him on. And while Paragus is being so cocky, Broly is just mowing down just everybody that comes in his path. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:15] Speaker B: And it keeps happening. They will get back up, go. I didn't hear no bell. And they'd go again. And the thing too is like, I don't. Yeah, it makes sense as to why of the Dragon Ball Z films, you get this crazy design for a Saiyan that is bigger than our iconic Saiyan protagonist, and immediately out the gate overwhelms him. And you're just like, holy shit. I haven't seen this at all in the show. Because at this point, you have a slender. A buff but still slender green Insect man who is just like the villain of the show with La Cell or Perfect Cell. And it's like, even Perfect Cell is like a third of the size of Broly. So to go from like the show proper having Cell to a man who basically fills the entire screen with his abs pretty much is like a very. Just, Just a complete dissonance in the most, you know, unique way. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Where it's like this kind of suddenly Hulk is the villain. [00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. But the thing is, I think the issue with Broly now is that ultimately what would make the movie so much more interesting is if Broly had an actual character. [00:33:31] Speaker A: No character. [00:33:32] Speaker B: Because the thing is, the movie, I think, is, to me, the movie is about a three out of five. It is very much like it gets to that point because the animation is great. There's some great. I guess the best way to put it is aura farming moments. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah, they do some cool stuff with the fights that you don't see in the show. Just. Just some really interesting. You know, the. The first Broly film is like, in the Dragon Ball fandom. It's like, guaranteed to be in every Dragon Ball amv. Yeah, like, it always gets clipped because the fight scenes look really cool and they do cool shit and. And make a bunch of craters and walls. [00:34:10] Speaker B: Because he's also. Yeah, because Broly's also doing like, you know, the Thanos thing now where it's like Broly just basically shoots a moon and destroys it. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:17] Speaker B: The backdrop by the end of the film is that a comet is falling onto this planet that is going to destroy the whole planet. If they can't fight Broly fast enough, they'll all die. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:28] Speaker B: So you have this glaring blue comet coming down as they're fighting Broly. So there's a ticking time clock aspect to it. But ultimately, by the time you get to, I think the meat and potatoes of the fight, Broly doesn't have anything. [00:34:44] Speaker A: He's not a character, really. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah, he is. Basically he's considered, like, whimpering and, you know, very snippy when he's in, like, his, I guess, normal form. But when he is in full jacked up, I'm gonna fuck up everything in front of me mode, he cackles. He says, kakarot. Because Kakarot is Goku's Saiyan name. That's all he knows him for and constantly says that and just like, boasting that he's going to destroy Earth and he's gonna destroy the planet here. Like, probably like the. The raddest, like, fucked up thing that like, Broly does early on is that the aliens that Annie was talking about earlier, like, the slave, like, the aliens race has been enslaved. [00:35:24] Speaker A: The local race that has been taken [00:35:26] Speaker B: over to basically put on the show to trick Vegeta and Cool Gohan, Goku's son and bunch of entrunks who's Vegeta's son, and Krillin, who's a family friend, basically the uncle to everybody. [00:35:39] Speaker A: Krillin family friend. [00:35:40] Speaker B: Krillin family friend has Died plenty of times. Has genuine charisma, despite the fact that he has no power. Love that for him, they basically befriend the alien race and they get to find out more about Paragus and Broly and kind of like, more of like why they're in this position. And then when you get to the point where Broly realizes that the aliens are still on the planet, he just throws an energy blast towards the alien race and basically eradicates all of them, if not most of them, in one fell swoop. So he's just overpowered out the gate. He is absolutely mad from the beginning. And there's no real. There's no fun conversation or kind of engaging conversation. It's just Goku getting madder and madder and then more desperate as fights go on. [00:36:34] Speaker A: Yeah, a huge part of the fun. Like Dragon Ball Z in particular. I won't say all of Dragon Ball, but Dragon Ball Z. A lot of it. I mean, it kind of classically gets clowned on for being a stupid, brainless show that's just like power levels and fights and stuff. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. [00:36:52] Speaker A: That's. I think as fans, we would both say that's a little reductive, but also kind of an earned reputation. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:58] Speaker A: But even at that, most of the major villains of the show, Frieza, Vegeta, Cell, even Buu, in kind of a different way, they all have like winning personalities as well as God. Like, they're so colorful. So, you know, they have these shit eating grins and these really devious monologues and you know, they're classical villains in a very fun way. And so Broly has none of that. All he has is his strength. And his strength is impressive. [00:37:32] Speaker B: Yeah, his catchphrase is Kakarot. [00:37:35] Speaker A: That's really all he says. Screams a lot. Like a lot of his screams are very good. Very well done. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Well done, son. Very good screams. Keep it going. [00:37:48] Speaker A: I will stay quite my claim, though. I said this while we were watching and I hold to it, I think a. I think a not insignificant portion of Broly's intrigue to fans the world over. Because Broly remains to this day an iconic character. Despite the fact that he has no personality and only until recently showed up in non canon films in the 90s. He. He remains kind of a staple character and a character that fans are always clamoring for and asking to be brought back and stuff. I stake my claim that a significant portion of that is because he turns green and has green lasers. And his. His laser blasts look unlike anything else any other Saiyan or any other enemy has in the show. Like, he just has a very unique look about him. Yeah. And the fact that he is Super Saiyan, but different. The fact that he has this berserker rage and the fact that his laser blasts, like, change the color of the entire world around him when he, like, charges them. [00:38:56] Speaker B: When he charges it, it. Clearly you can see the light be basically being. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Sucking the light out of the air and replacing it with green light, which is a really cool effect. And they milk the shit out of that in this trilogy because why wouldn't you? [00:39:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And they also reuse a lot of the animations in this. 4, 2. And I think a little bit in. Yeah, yeah. Again, listen, Dragon Ball Z is a show we both love and we both grew up with, and we basically. It's one of those things where we both. If you've always wanted to jump into Dragon Ball Z, I have good news for you. Considering the fan base and, you know, the attention that the TOEI has put into this over the years, there are multiple different ways you could watch this in terms of just like, fan recommendations, versions, most people. Now, I think we'd recommend Dragon Ball Z Kai because that's basically just cutting most of the filler out of a. And it sounds like a lot, and it is usually but like a near 300 episode show. But to be honest, like, for other. It's funny because, like, you know, Naruto and others are like, triple that at a certain point. But yeah, at a certain point, like Dragon Ball Z. I would say towards the end. Towards the end of Cell Saga basically goes, well, we. You know, what if we find a horse that people really like, we're gonna just keep on beating it. Yeah, we're just gonna keep like, you know what you like, transfer. You liked how Goku looked at the end of the Frieza saga. Guess what? Everyone now looks like that. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:26] Speaker B: Now they've all become Yellow Cell Saga. They're now buff. [00:40:29] Speaker A: Cell Saga, by and large, kind of marks the end of narrative innovation for Dragon Ball Z as a franchise pretty much. There are still choices that you and I both love in the Buu Saga and even beyond. But for the most part, the show kind of remains a static version of itself for decades shortly after this movie comes out. Not. Not. We're not saying because of this movie, but, like, what's going on in the show is kind of the series. Like, some people would even say is like kind of the spiritual finale of the show. [00:41:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Because a lot of the Things it [00:41:05] Speaker A: was kind of intended to be. [00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the end of the End of the Cell Saga, it kind of has this energy that Gohan was going to be. If there was going to be more. Gohan was going to be the protagonist. [00:41:15] Speaker A: He's Boruto. [00:41:16] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately. Don't. Don't say that. [00:41:20] Speaker A: Gohan equals Boruto. [00:41:22] Speaker B: That actually hurt. That was a good joke. And then also kind of hard to hear. It's so funny to hear you say that when I know you haven't watched a lick of Boruto. I think any of Naruto. [00:41:33] Speaker A: I have seen, like, the first season of Naruto. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:37] Speaker A: But I'll never watch anymore. [00:41:38] Speaker B: But. Yeah, right at the time in the series when they thought, oh, Gohan was going to be the new lead, they find a way to bring back Goku as the protagonist. And then they do the thing where they go, oh, Super Saiyan 2 is probably the hot. Oh, there's Super Saiyan 3. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker B: And you know what? Not everyone can do super Saiyan 3 because they can't be as cool as Goku. But you know what they can do? They can fuse. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:00] Speaker B: So fusions become a big part of the Buu Saga, where people realize that they have similar energies and they do a little dance or they wear very. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Earrings. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah, earrings. Very masculine, very platonic, not gay earrings. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Heterosexual earrings. [00:42:16] Speaker B: They confuse with each other. And that's what kind of doubles their powers when it comes to an enemy that's much stronger than they are by themselves. And then you're like, okay, Buu ends Dragon Ball Z. Like, the Buu Saga ends Dragon Ball Z. So, like, you know, are they going to keep doing that if they even come back? And, well, there. There was a sequel series that came out after Z that is not canon anymore, called gt. And of course, their response to that was, here's Super Saiyan 4. And when that didn't become canon anymore, the. The. The true canon sequel series, Dragon Ball super, they also go, yeah, we. Super Saiyan 4 was stupid. Instead, we're gonna do Super Saiyan God. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:57] Speaker B: And they're red, Right. Or they'll be, well, in the Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker B: Which is now just Super Saiyan Blue. Because Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan is stupid. And it's blue. And then, you know, you run into other Saiyans in that series that, like, have other colors. And then also it just is like, yeah, it just sells. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Actually, as of the latest Dragon Ball series that came out last year, Super Saiyan 4 is back. [00:43:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Because Daima does bring back four. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Canonizes Super Saiyan 4, which is so stuff. [00:43:29] Speaker B: Which is wild. Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker A: But at this point, it's like, yeah, whatever. [00:43:32] Speaker B: Because here's the thing. Because, like, what's so funny is when Dragon Ball Z. Dragon Ball Z ends and GT starts. GT is considered like a bastardization. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:40] Speaker B: I can't believe it's kind of a black sheep. It's. It's darker. It's darker in tone than Z. Yeah. Basically drops the Z Fighters almost entirely to focus on Goku, who is a kid. [00:43:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker B: And then like Trunks and then Goku's granddaughter. And then everybody else is just kind of there. They either get attacked or killed or get mind controlled. And that basically goes on for way too long. [00:44:09] Speaker A: Correct me if I'm wrong. GT is not. There is no manga. It was just an original anime. [00:44:13] Speaker B: I believe so. Yes. I don't know. I do know that I think around the time that GT either ended or maybe right before, like, I know the GT animators did do a recreation, almost like a compilation film of the early Dragon Ball era. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That's. Yeah. Path to Power. [00:44:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:35] Speaker A: Path. Yeah. [00:44:36] Speaker B: And that looks really cool. I like the little. The look of that. But like, yeah, basically a Dragon Ball has been around for so long that, yeah. It's now at this point of like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:46] Speaker B: And if you're not a fan of that, totally fine. To be honest, because of Dragon Ball Z, it has basically forced future Shonens to find unique ways, if not hopefully better ways to build off of a power level system where it's like, you know, you're at a point where, you know you have more of a magic system. Or if you're like Jujutsu Kaisen, it's not. It's just absolute nonsense. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Yeah. JJK avoids that problem by just having total diversity where every single character has a different power set. That doesn't make sense. And it's okay because it looks cool. Yeah. [00:45:19] Speaker B: Of course, my hero academia has, like, quirks because it's superhero powers and Black Clover exists. I don't really know much about that. But basically Z is the standard that so many Shonens kind of built upon. And it's fun to watch broly and basically just see when they were at kind of a golden age of the show. And just to watch the golden age of the show, all the golden age characters just get their ass beaten for a solid 30 minutes. And it's at this point where the narrative takes a Complete halt. Whatever narrative that was there. [00:45:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:51] Speaker B: It's now just non existent. Vegeta, who I think would arguably is the second strongest of the Z Fighters, gets basically is a coward for the [00:45:59] Speaker A: majority of the film. He's kind of oddly completely incapacitated by just shock and fear. [00:46:06] Speaker B: By the prophecy itself. [00:46:08] Speaker A: And the prophecy. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:09] Speaker A: And so he just sits there kind of crying and shaking while Goku and the kids get their shit rocked. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Goku, Vegeta. Yeah, Vegeta's kid and Goku's kid. Yeah. And Krillin. And also Piccolo, who. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Yeah, Piccolo shows up, who's one of his greatest entrances. [00:46:27] Speaker B: Just fantastic. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Arguably no notes when Piccolo shows up. Yeah. In a movie that has, I think, very few greatest moments for any of these characters as hide from Broly, Piccolo gets a top tier entry. [00:46:40] Speaker B: Listen, there's a reason why a few years ago when they made a 3D CG 2D style. [00:46:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:49] Speaker B: That say that five times fast dragon Ball Z film, when they focused on Gohan and Piccolo, my initial reaction was, oh, thank God we're giving other people time to shine. And also Gohan's true dad. And they hilariously enough, even with that, they basically give both of them another. Oh, new color. [00:47:10] Speaker A: Yep. New transformation. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Hey, you know what? I'll take it. Yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker A: Anymore if they ever reference that again, it'll be great to see them going maybe toe to toe with Goku. [00:47:22] Speaker B: It would be great. It would be wonderful. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Because it's like, if the only way we can get other characters relevant is by giving them new transformations, I'm all for it. Yeah. [00:47:29] Speaker B: At this point, it's. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah, but give Krillin a super. Superpower. [00:47:35] Speaker B: Make a superpower. Just get more hair. [00:47:38] Speaker A: Just. Yeah, he gets like Samson. [00:47:40] Speaker B: Yeah. He looks like the. He looks like is it thing from Adam's family. And that's how powerful he gets, is the amount of hair he has. [00:47:46] Speaker A: He parts the hair to show his face to do solar flare. [00:47:49] Speaker B: And it's just his eyes are completely white. He's all seen. [00:47:52] Speaker A: His solar flare blinds the earth. [00:47:54] Speaker B: Yeah. But Broly, the reason why we're going on these tangents so often is because, like, even Broly is the best of the three films. And even that is saying a lot. [00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Because by the time we get into the actual, like, fighting everyone versus Broly fight narrative takes a halt pretty much every time. Like, one person goes, I'll take on Broly. And then Broly hits him right in the face and they get thrown off. And next person shows up, does that, and they keep doing that back and forth, back and really. [00:48:24] Speaker A: Yeah, there's really no power struggle like back and forth to the fight in this, which is again kind of what makes it distinct in Dragon Ball Z. And that like there is no like Goku and anybody else never really get the upper hand on Broly until like the very end. It's just literally just them getting the shit beaten out of them. [00:48:44] Speaker B: There's not even like a beam struggle really. It's just like. It's so funny because the big iconic move that is basically what every Shonen would want to have people do for years and years on end is Goku's Kamehameha, which was introduced in the original Dragon Ball, but became iconic in Z because of the slow build up into the attack happening. And he doesn't even do that until like I would say halfway through their fight. And at that point, it's so useless. [00:49:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. [00:49:16] Speaker B: Again, a lot of the things that they do in there is really cool in concept. And if I was 12 years old watching this, which I think the last time I watched this, I was probably like 9 or 10. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker B: Seeing Goku with a Kamehameha throw it in Brawley's face like just point blank and it doing nothing. [00:49:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:34] Speaker B: Would probably be like, holy shit, that's rad. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:37] Speaker B: But now especially that we're in like super era, where to be honest, the last two Dragon Ball super films have been like incredible cinematography wise and choreography wise. The fights have been, yeah, really cool design fight wise. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that Broly was so popular, they kind of had to innovate from that. And they did. [00:49:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:58] Speaker B: But that also means when you have to go back to the base and you're like, yeah, this is fun but not great. [00:50:09] Speaker A: You're right. I agree that the legendary Super Saiyan is the best of the Broly films, which I love that we're declaring that. And we haven't even gotten to the others, but the other two feel like [00:50:19] Speaker B: it would just be a faster description. [00:50:21] Speaker A: But it's still not really a good movie. I mean, granted I have not seen all of the Dragon Ball films, but the ones I have seen, there aren't really any stunners among them. There are some fun ones. This is not top tier among them, but it's def. It's not the worst. There's a lot of mediocrity in the Dragon Ball movies. Like most of them are just kind of like 45 minute quick filler bullshit. Here's a new Villain. They're in a new place. They get their ass kicked for a little bit, and then Goku wins. It's just usually basically a very condensed, reductive, more boring version of the arcs in the show. [00:51:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:06] Speaker A: And Broly is not that much different, aside from, like we said, the fact that he's so dominant in the movie. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Because usually there'd be a bit more talking or a little bit more time to take in between the fights and more of a plan. There's not really a plan other than, basically, Paragus taking the. The leash off of his son accidentally and being like, go nuts, boy. [00:51:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:28] Speaker B: Which ultimately leads to Paragus getting killed. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Yeah. In kind of a fun, brutal way. [00:51:34] Speaker B: Yeah. He gets like a curate. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah. He tries to get in his escape pod and gets crushed inside it. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Squished like a bug. And then Broly thrown into the sun [00:51:43] Speaker A: or into the comet. Yeah. [00:51:45] Speaker B: Which is a rad way to go. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:46] Speaker B: I got squished by my son and get thrown into a comet. Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's just like, at this point when I think most people talk about the better of those films, I think, Andy, you've seen one of them, which is Fusion Reborn, which is like the last. [00:52:00] Speaker A: Yeah. That's probably my favorite of the ones [00:52:03] Speaker B: that I've seen of the Z proper. Then this one's just an iconic one because of what we've been talking about. But yeah, most of them are just kind of like, pretty formulaic and pretty much just like, do you like Dragon Ball Z? Here's more. Dragon Ball Z. Yeah. And when you get to it, like, Broly just, you know, it gives you that Dragon Ball Z. If you haven't watched the show in a while, you can just pop into Broly and be like, you know what? Fun time. But it is missing, especially that it's coming out around the Cell Saga time. It is missing a lot of the oomph that the series had at that point. [00:52:37] Speaker A: The stakes are narratively there. The characters, character arcs are not there whatsoever. [00:52:42] Speaker B: No. But the outfits are. And Trunks is horrible. Straight hair. [00:52:47] Speaker A: It's a bad. It's a bad period. [00:52:49] Speaker B: His mop head. [00:52:51] Speaker A: Mop head. In the show, he's wearing Vegeta's sand armor. It looks terrible. I don't like that. Yeah. [00:52:57] Speaker B: If you like that out there, good for you. But I just don't. [00:53:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I like Goku. Gohan look kind of good in the sand armor. [00:53:04] Speaker B: Go. Yeah, they do. [00:53:05] Speaker A: They wear that armor. [00:53:06] Speaker B: I'm. I am a person who believes that Gohan looks Looks his best at the end of Cell Saga in his dark purple look. [00:53:15] Speaker A: Yeah. His piccolo. [00:53:16] Speaker B: But I. I would argue that he doesn't look that good in that same Gi in. In the Buu Saga. [00:53:23] Speaker A: Oh, when he's an adult. [00:53:24] Speaker B: Yeah, he looks great in Superhero. [00:53:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:27] Speaker B: When they put him in that back. Actually in Superhero, they put him in the full piccolo look again. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Yeah. They give. [00:53:32] Speaker B: And it's kind of funny. The shoulder. Yeah. The. The. The robe. But yeah, it very much is. You get what you come for, which is just a little over an hour of just Dragon Ball Z mindless action. And if that's what you're looking for, good, you'll get it. [00:53:52] Speaker A: The longevity of Broly's popularity as a character speaks volumes about the fact that that is in fact what people want. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Before. Before. [00:54:04] Speaker A: A character who just kicks ass. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And honestly, when it came to a lot of the products outside of the show and the manga, where it basically was just like only doing the canon characters, you know, once they started to like, branch out into like non canon for like video games or this and that, Broly was usually like the first big, like, I want this guy in a game. [00:54:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Even though it has nothing to do with what the game is doing narratively. [00:54:27] Speaker A: Or is Broly going to be in the game? Is Broly going to get a figure [00:54:30] Speaker B: and these in the Budokai games, which is like one of the early, like, you know, PlayStation 2 era. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:35] Speaker B: And then of course, they basically. It gets to a point, if there's a Dragon Ball Z game, it would be foolish not to put Broly in it because people are just gonna be like. And just love it. And you know what? They loved Broly so much. In just a year's time, they had BoJack unbound as a film in between. [00:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:54] Speaker B: Which is like the. One of the only Dragon Ball Z films to not really have Goku as a protagonist for the longest time and has Gohan prominent for the most part. They still find a way to suck Goku into this, even though he's dead. Spoilers for the end of Cell saga. But he is in fact in heaven at the time. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Well, Goku is also the main character in the final two Dragon Ball films, even though he is dead at that time. [00:55:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes. But going into March of 94, with the second coming of Broly, it basically takes place early on in the last saga of the series, the Fusion Buu saga. And it's now seven years have passed because between the end of Cell and the beginning of the last saga, of the series. There's a seven year gap. Gohan is now an adult. Most of the remaining Z Fighters have moved on to do other things or have basically just been in a moment of peace for seven years. Are just kind of like itching to fight like Vegeta Trunks in the first film. We didn't even specify until now. The Trunks in the first broly film is a future version of Trunks. [00:56:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:05] Speaker B: That is a prominent part of the Android Saga. And once the Cell Saga completes, future Trunks goes back to his earlier time. His actual timeline. Yeah, yeah. And then as that happens, you know, Trunks is born in our timeline. And by the time we get to the second film we have Kid Trunks I think is what is normally known. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Now the present day version of Trunks has grown up into a child. [00:56:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Shonen man, you got all else to tell you. [00:56:37] Speaker A: If anybody's curious where exactly we are in the show when this second movie comes out. We're early on in the Buu Saga. Buu has actually not yet been revealed. [00:56:50] Speaker B: No. [00:56:50] Speaker A: Because the last episode that airs before this movie comes out is the Wizard's Curse in which the Z Fighters are trying to stop Babidi's goons from basically summoning or resurrecting the evil Majin Buu basically just. [00:57:08] Speaker B: I think they just drained Gohan of some of his power to put into Boo. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:14] Speaker B: And then that's. Yeah. That leads to the Deborah. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Majin Vegeta, which is honestly some good Vegeta. Good Vegeta shit. [00:57:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:57:24] Speaker B: Better than this movie. [00:57:25] Speaker A: Very early in the Buu saga. [00:57:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's a seven year gap. The Trunks we'll be talking about from this point forward is modern day seven year old Trunks. [00:57:34] Speaker A: Right. Child. [00:57:35] Speaker B: Child Trunks little boy. And he is best friends with Gohan's younger brother Goku's youngest son Goten. So it's Goku Gohan Goten. [00:57:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And their mother Goten looks just like Goku as a kid. [00:57:49] Speaker B: Wears the exact same gi but long sleeves. Yes. He's got like a little. It's almost like a little bit of the Gohan Goku kind of vibe where the. The main piece is the. The orange, but he gets a dark blue undershirt like his brother. But yeah. And their mother's name is Chi Chi. [00:58:08] Speaker A: Chi Chi. [00:58:09] Speaker B: It's not also a G name. But second coming starts with Trunks Goten. And at the time Gohan's will they won't they. They ultimately will. Girlfriend Videl, who is the daughter of a character in the show is most notably known as Mr. Satan. But in the dub, in the English translation, they told him Herculean. Yeah, he basically imagine Hulk Hogan. [00:58:37] Speaker A: Yeah, he's a Hogan kind of pro wrestler Chuck Norris kind of amalgamation is the big bravado, sort of American ish fighter. [00:58:47] Speaker B: He's basically. He's a loser that plays a winning fighter. He's actually. He's actually given credit for fighting for killing Cell in the series. [00:58:57] Speaker A: Even though he did some shenanigans. And he ends up taking the. Taking the credit, which is great. Which I think he's like known even before Cell. He's known as like the world's greatest fighter because he's like done these championships. [00:59:11] Speaker B: Well, he also lives in Satan City. Yeah. [00:59:14] Speaker A: I mean, it's all rigged. Yeah. It's not real. He's not that powerful. [00:59:18] Speaker B: He lives in a city named after him. [00:59:19] Speaker A: He is kind of purported as the world's greatest fighter, but he's an entertainer. [00:59:24] Speaker B: Could you just imagine living in a real like. Again this. The real world is wild as it is already and just a hellscape at times. But just could you imagine we. We did live in a real world where like Cody Rhodes got so big. We get like Rhodes Town or like Rhodes City. Yeah, just like Batistaville or something like that. Yeah. Just now think of all the other wrestlers that are. [00:59:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Cena City, Rhea, Ripley City, Ripley City. But yeah, so it's Goten, Trunks and Videl are searching for the Dragon Balls because hilariously, I'm looking at the time now. We are about an hour in. And we have not described any reason as to why the series is called Dragon Ball Z, which is basically in the original manga, the first Dragon Ball, it was basically a whole series. Kind of the inciting incident is finding these starred Dragon Balls throughout the. Throughout this globe. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:27] Speaker B: And if you find them, you get one wish from the Dragon Shenron. [01:00:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:31] Speaker B: And then you take that wish. The Dragon Balls disperse. You can't use them for a year [01:00:36] Speaker A: back over the world. [01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:37] Speaker A: It's kind of this perpetual search of find the Dragon Balls, summon Shenron the dragon, make your wish, rinse and repeat. Or the villains are trying to do so and your goal is to stop them. [01:00:49] Speaker B: While in the original manga of Dragon Ball the first series, they use a lot of the Dragon Balls as a way to make sure villains don't get them to make evil wishes or also just to make wishes to kind of help their friends here and there. Dragon Ball Z kind of uses the Dragon Balls in a way to be like Here, please bring my friend back to life. Because he just exploded. And then later we find out there are Dragon Balls across the universe. Because there's the Namekian Dragon Balls. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Other planets have Dragon Balls. [01:01:17] Speaker B: When GT was still considered canon in a way, there was the Black Star Dragon Balls. So basically, at a certain point in Dragon Ball Z proper, despite its namesake, the Dragon Balls kind of become fifth six Fiddle. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:32] Speaker B: Like, it becomes a point where like they basically find them off screen. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah. They're constantly presence, but not really relevant to the stakes of the events. [01:01:40] Speaker B: And in this, Goten, Trunks and Videl are about to find the last of the Dragon Balls. They end up in this random little village where they hear that there's this monster terrorizing them. But the only way that they feel like they have to stop this monster is to sacrifice a firstborn or a virgin or something. Classic old timey bullshit. But they decide, hey, we're Saiyans. We could probably take this on. So they go, they find out it's like a red dinosaur that's easy to fight. They kill it, turn it into meat to feed the village, and everything is fine. But in the process of trying to find the dinosaur and try to trap it and help the village, at a certain point, Goten. I think it's. Yeah, Goten gets like smacked by Videl because Goten's misbehaving. [01:02:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And he starts crying. [01:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And that crying sounds a lot like Baby Goku's cry. And wouldn't you know it, it turns [01:02:40] Speaker A: out the village is on a lake, and buried beneath the lake is inexplicably Broly. Because the film begins by sort of introducing this notion which does not line up with the events of the first film at all. In that when Broly was defeated and the planet was essentially destroyed right by the comet, Broly was actually. There's an escape pod. Yeah, he got into a pod, or was put in a pod and was launched into space and sent to Earth, [01:03:12] Speaker B: even though he made a paragus wrap with the last pod. So it's like, I don't know where that pod would have come from. [01:03:18] Speaker A: Yeah. He magically gets a pod, ends up on Earth, falls unconscious at the bottom of a lake, and it's free frozen over on top of him until Goten starts crying. [01:03:28] Speaker B: Yeah, Goten. [01:03:29] Speaker A: Baby Goku. [01:03:30] Speaker B: Yep. So Broly wakes up. Broly now to change. Because the end of Broly the First the first film, Goku, for some reason, just decides he has enough power to take him on. His all of his friends, give him power Vegeta finally helps. [01:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:45] Speaker B: Goku actually is able to handle Broly for some reason, but ultimately ends with him shoving his fist, punches a hole in Broly, shoves a fist in his chest, and then uppercuts wall in the chest to make like this big, huge kind of gash going from the middle of his chest up. It technically makes Broly almost implode into the Comet initially, but instead he just kind of gets a huge scar on his chest. [01:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah. The end of the first film and the circumstances of his return in the the second film don't really make any sense together at all because he's basically like, gutted and obliterated by Goku at the end of the first film and then is all in one piece when we see him. [01:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And also, spoiler alert, Bio Broly is worse with that. [01:04:31] Speaker A: Yes. [01:04:31] Speaker B: So, like, this is a trilogy that is really on a. The smallest of reasons why this, like, the most minute, kind of like, ridiculous reasons. [01:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. They were like, I don't care how we do it, we just need more Broly. [01:04:43] Speaker B: They want Broly. The kids want Broly. We will give them Broly. God damn it. And so Broly wakes up the majority of the film, which I'll have to say this too. When we watched all the. We watched all the films together, and we all watched them all in one night because again, the films are under, like, three hours altogether. So we thought, you know, fuck it, let's go through all three of them. Might be. It might be fun to go back to back to back. And it was until we got to Bio. Yeah. When we got to Bio, Broly, it really became a struggle, despite that being the shortest of the films. But at a certain point, you know, after we watched all three of them, you know, it had been a while since I had, like, listened or like, heard other opinions surrounding the Dragon Ball films because we're now at a point, again, Broly is now canon in Dragon Ball. They found a way to bring him in, and arguably we will maybe talk a little bit about later. Better than any of these three films. [01:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. It all much. [01:05:37] Speaker B: Yes. And honestly, like, we're at a point with Dragon Ball Z films or just Dragon Ball films in general, where it's like, we're in no rush to get another one, but at the same time, if there was another one, we'd be kind of fucking pumped to see what it could be. And so, you know, I was curious about hearing people talk about it, so I found like, a random video of somebody I follow. I believe his. It was a YouTuber named Totally Not Mark. It's a video years ago. [01:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I followed him before he does [01:06:02] Speaker B: a Speedrun, basically, of all the films. And hilariously, I kind of just listened mostly to like, Broly Onward because I wanted to remember the latter half of the films are. And he said, and I quote, broly, the Second Coming has probably the worst opening to any of the Dragon Ball Z films. [01:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:18] Speaker B: And to be honest, it's pretty fucking stupid. It's really fucking bad because it really just like Goten Trunks characters. I love Videl, who I like. Videl doesn't get a lot to do in the Fusion saga. Basically. Videl is one of those cool characters who is like, sees herself as super strong. And she is strong for a human. But like, a lot of what made her very interesting and how she was falling for Gohan without knowing what kind of person Gohan was. And then really having a good camaraderie together. But then all honestly, when she finds out about the Saiyans and the Z Fighters and stuff, she kind of gets pushed to the wayside. Like, unfortunately, most of the cast at a certain point. But yeah, the beginning of Second Coming is like, really boring. It's really dumb. It kind of just like it's. It's kind of silly to watch how long it takes to get to the Broly of it all. Because Broly, basically, it's introduced at the very beginning in the frozen lake. And then there's like nothing for a while. And then. I'm not shitting you, I have not seen the second one. I have not seen this one. I was telling Andy the legendary Super Saiyan was like the only one I'd seen in these three films. [01:07:21] Speaker A: Same. [01:07:21] Speaker B: And also that was the only one I've actually, that was the first time I was introduced to the Japanese cast. Because when I watched that film originally, I think it was a pirated, ripped version of that film, but they only had the Japanese for it. And so the first time hearing an old woman or at the time was probably in middle age woman play Goku for the majority of Goku's run in Japanese. But so, you know, that's legendary. Super Saiyan was the only one I was aware of. And so going into Second Coming, it was like, you know, God, it would really be stupid. But I have no doubt that Goten is going to wake up Broly because of his cries. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:00] Speaker B: And wouldn't you know it, that's the inciting incident of Broly's return. And when Broly shows up, it basically he looks at Goten, goes Kakarot. And the film goes, yep. [01:08:12] Speaker A: Like, it really just fights from there pretty much. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Because another thing that I think is interesting about the Second Coming and definitely Bio Bro Broly, is the fact that I feel like this. The team realized once Broly was such a hit, when they were thinking about a second film, they kind of realized we kind of shot ourselves in the foot in a lot of ways. One, the first film, Broly fights all of the Z Fighters pretty much at that point. Well, all the ones that are wild [01:08:40] Speaker A: Super Saiyan, plus Piccolo. [01:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And they all could not handle him except for God Goku. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:45] Speaker B: And now Goku is dead canonically. So in terms of Broly fighting any of them, the fight is not going to be on equal ground unless they find a way to bring in Goku or maybe a way to basically, spoiler alert, bring in Goku most the time. But. So they shot themselves in the foot there. Another thing that shot themselves in the foot is that narratively, if you're introducing new people to Broly, if you don't have someone who already knows who Broly is, you can't really introduce to these new characters who Broly is, because no one really knows his backstory except for Vegeta. Yeah, because during the, like, the whole Broly backstory that we get is mostly through Paragus in the first film telling this all to Vegeta. So, like everyone else who's actually fighting and getting their ass kicked, they never [01:09:34] Speaker A: figure out they don't know who he [01:09:36] Speaker B: is except his name and that he's a legendary Super Saiyan. So when you get to this point where it is Broly versus Gohan's human girlfriend who can fly, and the two kids, it becomes a film of just these two kids thinking this could be fine, getting their asses handed to them. Videl, Weirdly enough, again, Videl, in this actual proper series, once she starts to fight people with superpowers, she's like, no match for them. But she's able to dodge a Broly attack at one point point in this movie, which is insane, but she gets knocked out pretty early on. It basically becomes Goten and Trunks trying to get the Dragon Balls together in hopes to wish for something to maybe stop Broly. And then in the process of that, also fighting, they go Super Saiyan, both of them, because they can. And then they try to fight him, and it doesn't work. And basically going through a lot of the same motions the first film does kind of loses a lot of steam about halfway through until just by happenstance, Gohan gets introduced. Gohan's back on the scene. Gohan goes, holy shit, that's Broly. And the kids go, you know who that is? And it's like, yes, he's a legendary Super Saiyan. He fought dad. Dad killed him. But I guess we're gonna have to try and kill him ourselves. And honestly, some of the best stuff is when Gohan shows up because the fight between him and Broly is now less of a gap. There's still a gap there because again, Broly is way too overpowered out the gate. But there is some good little choreography moments that I don't think were even in the first film. Some good hand to hand stuff. Some good little back and forth. It's not just Gohan standing in front of every beam that Broly shoots. Like in the first film, there's a genuine fight here and there. But ultimately Gohan gets to a point where he's. He just can't handle it. He can't. You know, even though at this point he's considered the strongest warrior on planet Earth. [01:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, he just can't. [01:11:38] Speaker B: He just can't handle Broly. And so it gets to a point where they do a beam struggle, where of course, Broly is stronger than he is. And then Goten and Gohan have to work together as brothers and it's not enough. And then Goten accidentally wishes that their father was there to help them. And so we basically get a father and two sons. Kamehameha, which ultimately leads kind of a [01:12:02] Speaker A: spiritual follow up on the end of the Cell Saga, where Gohan kind of had the spiritual presence of Goku on his side to fight Cell. [01:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah, struggle. Not only are they reheating Broly leftovers, they're also reheating some of the best of the Cell Saga as well. And so their beam is strong enough, they fight back. Broly. Broly gets turned into mincemeat and gets sent into space into the sun. He gets shot into the sun and burnt up. And that is the end of Broly for the time being. And then the Dragon Balls all go away. Goku just like shows up for five seconds and leaves. And the movie is 20 minutes shorter than the first film. So we're done. [01:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, like, it's just kind of. I mean, I wouldn't say it's like significantly worse than the first one. [01:12:57] Speaker B: No. [01:12:58] Speaker A: But I think it also. It gains a lot of grace by being only 50 minutes long and not really having much plot to chew. And so it's maybe A little bit better paced just by virtue of the fact that they're both dumb. So one is shorter, so it's less dumb. [01:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I'm. I'm a bit. I will. I will miss. I'm a bit biased because I'm one of those people that loves Gohan to the degree that when I watch one of the films. And this also applies to other films, I'm talking about you, Resurrection F. When they use Gohan in a way where they almost forget that he's supposed to be either one of the strongest heroes in the world, or they just say, oh, you haven't trained in a while, so now you're just way too weak. And they just kick the shit out of him. I get annoyed. Yeah, I get annoyed. And I think, thankfully, with Broly Second coming, there's a little bit of good there. And you can argue that, like, since it's before in the show, we get, like, the real prophecy stuff. He doesn't get the Z Sword yet. Yeah, he doesn't become Ultimate Gohan yet. But yeah, there's such thing as Ultimate Gohan. I'm just saying these things, like, everyone who's listening probably knows this, and there's a good chance they might. [01:14:07] Speaker A: I've always really liked this specific, like, kind of. It's a really brief window in the series, but, like, this sort of era of Gohan. [01:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I do too. [01:14:18] Speaker A: It's. It's pre. Supreme Kai, Mystic, Ultimate Gohan. Shit. It's. He's. He's grown up. I mean, he's a college student, I think, or like, just out of college or something. Late high school, early college, going into college. Because that's what Goku's up to and the. At the beginning or whatever. So he is kind of visually adult, but still feels sort of scrappy. And he's not, like, he's not top dog. He's not a laughingstock. He's just like a really solid, cool warrior. And I like. I like when he goes Super Saiyan in the piccolo outfit. [01:14:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree, I agree. Like, I think, like, this is an era of the show where, like, Gohan is trying to be. He's the only Saiyan who actually wants to try and be somewhat normal. [01:15:08] Speaker A: Like, have a normal life. Have a life on top of. Yeah. [01:15:11] Speaker B: Nobody in the Z Fighters, truly, besides, like, Krillin, Yamcha and maybe Tien. Really? Yamcha and Tien have normal lives because they're not that powerful anymore. [01:15:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:23] Speaker B: But basically, of the Z Fighters, Gohan is the only one who is like, incredibly strong, but also wants to have a social life, which has constantly been berated by everybody else in the show for wanting that. Which is wild. Actually. No, it's not wild. It's just silly to think about. Goku has no right to say because Goku's a bad dad. No one should have. We should not have any conversation about that. Goku is a lovely guy. He's a bad dad. Piccolo is Gohan's real dad, whether he knows it or not. But Gohan is just such a fun character that he does feel like at a certain point, they. They just decide to not abandon him, but just like, abandon the idea of him being the now de facto protagonist. [01:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:07] Speaker B: Because fans clearly didn't want to let go fully of Goku. And so, of course, when he comes back, fans cheered, hollered shit themselves. And then it became like the Goku show. And then super becomes the Goku Vegeta Show. [01:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:21] Speaker B: Which is. [01:16:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it's still mostly the Goku Show. [01:16:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Has its own issues on its own. Right. But like, yeah, it's. I'm always a fan of trying to use Gohan in some way, shape and form, and actually having fun with his power dynamic. But yeah, in this, it just has the classic. Like, he can hold his own at a certain point, but also, it's almost like pretending like he hasn't gotten any better since the last film. And it's like, no, he's Super Saiyan 2. My guy. Let him go. Super Saiyan 2. But yeah, second coming is. Yeah, it's not a huge downgrade, but I mean, if I gave the first film a three out of five, this is like a two and a half. [01:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm a. I think I'm a two and a half on both of them. [01:17:03] Speaker B: That's fair, honestly. But we both are on probably at least a one, maybe even a zero. [01:17:10] Speaker A: I give it a one. [01:17:11] Speaker B: I probably get it. [01:17:12] Speaker A: It's not interminable. [01:17:14] Speaker B: It's. It's. But it really tries to be. [01:17:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:17:17] Speaker B: As we get to the third film. Because just four months later, we get the third coming, technically. But really, it's a little bio broly action. And what that means is, in this film, it is now it is a Hercule or Mr. Satan story with Android 18, which is Krillin's wife. [01:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. That was not AN Ugh at Android 18. It was an ugh at a Hercule [01:17:45] Speaker B: story, which Hercule's fine. I think it's like a single episode comic relief character. Character. Yeah. [01:17:52] Speaker A: Does not need to Take center stage. [01:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Basically the narrative of the third film is that Mr. Satan, aka Hercule, has somebody from his past who says he's a coward and a fraud. Because it actually plays into the BU saga at the time where, like in the BU saga at the time there was a world tournament. [01:18:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:14] Speaker B: And Android 18. Yeah, which. That is her name. Just to clarify. She was. She was. She was a bad guy during the Android saga. Now she's a good guy. [01:18:24] Speaker A: But they never fell in love with Krillin. [01:18:26] Speaker B: Who doesn't? I mean, he's. You just see him and he's like, this is the sex appeal the Z Fighters need. But yeah, basically in the BUU saga at this point, Android 18 basically faints an attack and pretends like it hurt a lot. And then Hercule 1 the championship. [01:18:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:45] Speaker B: And so the film is basically about Android 18 pushing him for money for the. For pretending to lose the match. [01:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. She threatens to out him to the world as a bedwetter. [01:18:55] Speaker B: Yes. Well, his. His old. His old crony, like, childhood friend. [01:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:01] Speaker B: Is it Jaguar? [01:19:03] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. [01:19:04] Speaker B: Count Jaguar or something like that. [01:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:08] Speaker B: Basically, you know, Mr. Jaguar. [01:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:11] Speaker B: As Android 18 is trying to get money from Hercule, Mr. Jaguar is trying to blackmail him into becoming to his private island to prove that his Jaguar's biological warriors, bioweapons, are much stronger than Hercule in every single way. So of course hercule goes, hey, Android 18, if you come with me, I'll double your payment. So of course she comes along because she's like, I don't trust that you're not going to give me my money unless I'm with you. And as they do it, Goten and Trunks are like sneaking around watching everything that's going on. So they come with them. So it becomes like a Goten Trunks Android 18 story. As they get to Count Jaguar or Mr. Jaguar's island, they meet all these giant Bio warriors which just look like fleshy, multicolored, fleshy monsters. [01:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah, they're gloopy people. [01:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah, they're Ken Dolls, basically, but like an a. Like an alien kind of weird gloop. [01:20:08] Speaker A: They kind of look like the Monstars. [01:20:11] Speaker B: Yeah, they do jacked monsters naked for some reason. [01:20:15] Speaker A: Naked jacked. [01:20:17] Speaker B: Look that up in Google. But it really. Yeah. When they show up, it is very much like, okay, they're just gonna fight all these bioweapons, these Bio Warriors. Cool. But here's the thing. He has a lot of Bio warriors, including a Bio Warrior that's based off of the blood of a certain legendary Super Saiyan that apparently the shaman from the second film. There's the shaman that was trying to [01:20:41] Speaker A: sacrifice a virgin village leader. Yeah. [01:20:43] Speaker B: Who is. I don't like his dub voice, but that's what it is. Sounds like a parody dub. Sounds like a Team four Star kind of. Not in a good way. And again, Team four Star highly do great work. Great work. Love their. Apparently a lot of people, when they think of the Broly movies, they think of their version of the. I think after. [01:21:02] Speaker A: I haven't seen it, but I've. I've heard it's way better. [01:21:05] Speaker B: We should watch. That'd be fun. But yeah, the shaman from the second film got a bunch of crusty old blood from Broly's pod and gave it to Mr. Jaguar. And now they have turned one of the bioweapons into a clone of Broly. Hence Bio Broly. This is a 42 minute film that feels like it's 90 minutes. And it ultimately becomes go 10. Trunks at Android 18 fight all the Biowarriors and it's a piece of cake. None of them can phase them in whatsoever. And they go, fuck it. Release Bio Broly. They release Bio Broly and they go, fuck. Wait, go back. That was a bad idea. And then Bio Broly comes out of his pod. And then the rest of the movie becomes Goten and trunks and Android 18 trying to defeat Bio Broly. And here's the thing. When I was kind of reminding myself of when these came out and kind of doing a little research, of course I'm seeing the posters for each one of these movies. Hilariously enough, when it comes to Bio Broly, I don't remember if Broly himself is on the poster for this. I just remember it being mainly Goten and Trunks in the forefront. And I thought, that's interesting that it's a Broly film, but they're using like the Bio warriors and Trunks and Goten as like the leading. [01:22:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just. It's. Yeah. Trunks and Goten in the foreground shooting ki blasts, Android 18 behind them shooting a Ki blast. And then in the background, in a kind of shadowy, you know, goo tank, is a floating figure with Broly's hair. [01:22:40] Speaker B: There's a reason why that is the version of Broly they use on the COVID Because Bio Broly, once he gets out of his pod, he goes immediately from looking like Broly in the pod to coming out of the pod and then looking like the Swamp Thing covered in manure with like a little bit of Broly hair. [01:23:05] Speaker A: He's Swamp Thing with a mullet. [01:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And a beating heart. He has, like, a giant chest piece that is clearly opening into where his, like, heart is. [01:23:14] Speaker A: Right. [01:23:15] Speaker B: And it's a horrendous design. [01:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:17] Speaker B: I don't know what the fuck they were thinking about doing that for. Broly. [01:23:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:21] Speaker B: Because, like, it's hilarious because when we started watching the movie, we were both like, oh, so it's gonna be like a. It's just gonna probably be a green colored Broly. He's probably just gonna be green. [01:23:30] Speaker A: They've got all these bio warriors that, like, kind of pretty much look humanoid. [01:23:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:35] Speaker A: Their skin is kind of funky and they. They're colored. Weird. [01:23:38] Speaker B: They kind of look. [01:23:38] Speaker A: They look like people. [01:23:40] Speaker B: They kind of have like a cooler design or at least like the. The angular kind of. [01:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:45] Speaker B: Just the. The bald head. [01:23:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:47] Speaker B: The slender body for a lot of, [01:23:49] Speaker A: like, a lot of the characters that you see in Hell in this show, where they're just kind of like jacked, roided up people. Or if you watch funny colors or [01:23:57] Speaker B: if you watched on Toonami. Hfil. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Yes. [01:24:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Or if you played in the video games at the time, they can never, never say Hell. [01:24:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:04] Speaker B: So they never really called it Heaven either. [01:24:06] Speaker A: Right. [01:24:08] Speaker B: But yeah, it just. Once Bio Broly shows up, he's just a sloppy mess that ultimately leads to, like, this evil goop taking over the whole plant. And so it becomes like Goten and Trunks's arc, which they don't really have an arc in the last film, but apparently this arc is like, in this film is to be more like heroes. [01:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, they're like. [01:24:28] Speaker B: Goes like Trunks is whole. Trunks's whole thing is that he keeps wanting to fight Broly regardless of the civilians around them, while Goten is being heroic and saving people who are in trouble. And then by the end of the film, Trunks is doing his best to save people in the way, while also saving Goten in the process. [01:24:46] Speaker A: And Android 18 is kind of in the mix. [01:24:49] Speaker B: She's there. [01:24:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:50] Speaker B: Hercule is also there who's just like. Basically he's like, I'm gonna fight Broly. And then it's like, oh, Jesus Christ. Then nothing comes of that other than him being scared the whole time. Yeah, he. [01:25:02] Speaker A: He. [01:25:03] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. He introduces the idea that later on, this big, huge goop starts coming from the facility and it starts to eat everything around it, including the island, I guess, called Jaguar Island. I don't know. Wouldn't surprise me if it was called that. [01:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:18] Speaker B: But basically, once it starts to take over the Island. There's a doctor who in the dub is played by the same voice actor as Vegeta and Pixar. Piccolo. Because since neither one of them are in this, at least give him something to do. Chris Sabat. He basically says if it gets into the water supply, it'll like, poison the ocean. [01:25:37] Speaker A: Right. [01:25:37] Speaker B: But as soon as it touches the water, it turns to stone. And it's introduced through Hercule trying not to die while in the water. [01:25:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:45] Speaker B: And so that's what introduces the characters. Oh, water will kill this thing. [01:25:49] Speaker A: Turns to stone. Yeah. [01:25:50] Speaker B: And then at that point, you know, Bio Broly has died. But no, just kidding. He's come back. Then he dies again. [01:25:56] Speaker A: Yeah. He turns into a giant sludge monster. And the sludge monster sets foot in the ocean and turns his stone. [01:26:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:02] Speaker A: And then crumbles apart, if I'm remembering. [01:26:04] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:05] Speaker B: Bio Broly, I think, is widely regarded as one of the worst of the Dragon Ball Z films. [01:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:09] Speaker B: It is very much a. Because from this point forward, I think you have, you know, they're like, okay, we won't just rely on Broly anymore. And that's when we get Fusion Reborn. [01:26:19] Speaker A: Yeah. They get a little more creative. [01:26:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's another one that comes after that that is like an entirely original character, I believe is the character that introduces Trunks to his sword. [01:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Wrath of the Dragon. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Wrath of Dragon, apparently is also really good. [01:26:32] Speaker A: Tapion. Yeah. Fusion Reborn and Wrath of Dragon were staples for me growing up. I had those on VHS tape. [01:26:39] Speaker B: Well, look at you having the better films on vhs. Well, I had Cooler. Overtuner of Cooler. [01:26:46] Speaker A: Supers aren't that good, but Cooler is cool. [01:26:49] Speaker B: And I'll say I want. They weren't my movies, they're my stepbrothers. [01:26:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:53] Speaker B: And you know what? It was fine at that age. As long as you had any Dragon Ball fine. [01:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, Bio Broly is a weird one because it feels like maybe more than any of the other Dragon Ball Z movies I've seen. Feels like the. Like Dragon Ball Z, only in like the most bare minimum way. It's like, oh, here, let's pull second string characters into a movie. Let's pull five second string characters, second or third or fourth string characters that have almost no connection to each other. [01:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:30] Speaker A: Make them the main characters of the movie. [01:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:33] Speaker A: You know, because, like, I mean, we both really enjoyed Superhero, which was the latest Dragon Ball film. [01:27:39] Speaker B: Honestly, the more I think about Superhero, the more I just to want to rewatch it. [01:27:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I had a blast. I think Fans in general are kind of. And even at this point in the 90s, were a little bit starved for, like, you know, stories centered on other characters. [01:27:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:54] Speaker A: So, like, maybe that was their thought process, but, like, this is a story about other characters in the worst way, because it's about characters that you're not really clamoring for development. It's not interested in developing them. It's picking a weird smattering of characters that don't really have a connection, and it's a really bad Frankenstein version of an iconic villain that has no arc. [01:28:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Because at this point, the only people that know about Broly in this film are Goten and Trunks, and they only know about him in the sense of we know what he looks like, we know who he sounds like and what his name is. [01:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. We don't know that. Just happens to look like him. [01:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And thankfully, he is weak enough that it doesn't take too long to really take him out. He's still a pain in the ass, [01:28:46] Speaker A: but he's not nearly as, like, imposing or dominant as proper Broly was in his films, though. But you kind of lose that magic factor. [01:28:54] Speaker B: But what is so funny, though, is that with the first and second film, there is no hint at we're gonna keep doing this. But hilariously enough, Bio Broly ends on a stinger of, you know what? Goku just. I mean, it's crazy. Broly is causing so much havoc in Hell. I think you might have to go down to Hell to stop him. And to be honest, hilariously enough, that has the most interesting concept. Yeah. Out of all them. Because the. [01:29:22] Speaker A: I mean, if that's what Fusion Reborn was like, that would be an interesting premise, because Fusion Reborn take takes place in Hell. [01:29:28] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [01:29:29] Speaker A: It's Goku and Vegeta have to go down there to end the throne. [01:29:31] Speaker B: They're, like, finding they're fighting Frieza. [01:29:35] Speaker A: Frieza and Cell show up. [01:29:36] Speaker B: That's the one where Goten and Trunks fight Hitler. [01:29:39] Speaker A: Yes. [01:29:39] Speaker B: Yes. They fight Hitler. [01:29:41] Speaker A: A bunch of the people in Hell get released to the living world because it's. [01:29:46] Speaker B: Is it. It's not Dodembra. Do you know who I'm talking about? [01:29:51] Speaker A: Janemba. [01:29:52] Speaker B: Janemba. That's right. [01:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:54] Speaker B: Those are all real. Janemba's real name. [01:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:57] Speaker B: I promise you we're not. And he's really cool, actually. I do like his design. [01:30:01] Speaker A: So cool. [01:30:01] Speaker B: I like his design. He's actually a lot of fun. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:04] Speaker B: Honestly, a lot of the movie designs, I think I like BoJack's design. [01:30:08] Speaker A: BoJack's cool. A lot of the villains in the movies have really cool designs, whether or not they are actually interesting, because at [01:30:14] Speaker B: the end of the day, even at its weakest time, like, you know, again, rest in power, fucking Akira Toriyama. His designs were so specific and iconic, and genuinely, even his weakest designs had something very fascinating about him. And, you know, and that's. Again, it's one of the things that. It's such a shame that if. If Bio Broly's design is a Toriyama decision, that might be my least favorite Toriyama design. [01:30:41] Speaker A: It's pretty fucking bad. [01:30:43] Speaker B: It's really. Yeah. It's just a slop monster, and he just, like, dies, and then they hint at maybe we'll see Broly again, and then you don't. You actually, for 23 years, never hear no more Broly until Dragon Ball super does a film called Dragon Ball Super Broly in 2019. Yeah. So, like, yes. Of 15, 25 years later. Yeah. And basically. Yeah. It's in the late 2010s. [01:31:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:13] Speaker B: Basically making Broly officially canon through Dragon Ball Super. [01:31:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:19] Speaker B: Making Broly an actual character, making him genuinely interesting. [01:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:24] Speaker B: Making the fights around him actually less of a dog pile and more of a badass. [01:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:30] Speaker B: Kind of interpretation. [01:31:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Kind of maximizing the formula of Dragon Ball Z, where it's like kind of this ramping up, this one upmanship of transformation and fusion and all the stuff. And Broly is at his most insane, unhinged. [01:31:47] Speaker B: He's also at his most empathetic. [01:31:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Because he's actually a character. Broly in the original film should be an empathetic character because he's manipulated by his father, and he's a slave to his emotions, like his rage and cursed by his power. And the Super Movie actually does that. [01:32:09] Speaker B: They kind of treat him like Tarzan almost, which, honestly, is the best way to handle Broly. [01:32:14] Speaker A: Yeah. He's like a man, a feral child. [01:32:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Instead of being, like, actually stunted to the point that it's a child in the most muscular man possible, it is just, like, truly a man who has never been taught how to live outside of just, like, a horrendous situation, which is basically being eradicated by an evil [01:32:36] Speaker A: white monster, which I didn't realize, even though we had both seen Broly, the legendary Super Saiyan, many years ago, I had. I had totally forgotten that. The super film in 2018 is, like, basically a remake of the original, the first in this trilogy. It's telling the same story. You got Paragus and his son and his son is insanely powerful, and he has him kind of shock collared into submission, and Broly breaks free and causes havoc and. [01:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:33:07] Speaker A: So it's basically a recanonizing remake of the first film in the series, and it makes for the best Broly story we've ever gotten. [01:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, truly. [01:33:16] Speaker A: And probably one of the best Dragon Ball films we've ever gotten. I would. Yeah, certainly one of the prettiest. [01:33:22] Speaker B: Oh my God. I mean, honestly, it's so pretty and handles the 2D animation so well. It's no surprise that the next film after that tries to go in a different role with the 3D approach. And honestly, I think does really well. [01:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:35] Speaker B: But yeah, basically with this trilogy, I think we would both recommend giving the first one to watch. If you are curious and regardless of how you feel about that first one, I think we also would just recommend if there's even a little bit of legendary Super Saiyan that you like, we would recommend giving the Dragon Ball Super Broly film a watch. [01:33:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:55] Speaker B: Because that. [01:33:56] Speaker A: That would be. My bottom line is like, if. If Broly seems like a cool character to you, or you remember Broly from when you were a kid and you're like, is there any good Broly shit out there? Like, just go straight. Oh, the 2018 film. [01:34:11] Speaker B: Because it also basically makes the Bardock film canon. Because. Yeah, because another thing I think makes the legendary Super Saiyan a little bit weaker than it should, is that there's less about the past of the Saiyans relative to Broly. You get a little bit. You get the King Vegeta telling someone to stab a child, stab Paragus. But like, it's in the Super Broly film. You get a whole. The whole narrative kind of through line is initially with Goku's dad, and then find the way that it ties into Broly and Paragus. [01:34:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:47] Speaker B: And King Vegeta. [01:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah, super. Super. The Super Broly film basically, like, in a way, it kind of proves as like a little bit of an entry point. Like, if you're curious about Dragon Ball Z and don't know much about it, but you kind of just want to jump on. Like, they sort of briefly kind of set the stage for what Dragon Ball Z is. They don't give you all the details of every character that you're going to see, but like, they. They kind of give you a speedrun of the lore. [01:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:15] Speaker A: And then they're like. And this is where they've ended up. It's like, fuck, okay. [01:35:20] Speaker B: It's the kind of Film where literally we've talked through all three of the original Broly films. But talking about Super Broly right now has actually gotten me the most jazzed to go back and watch some movie. Watch the movie. [01:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:33] Speaker B: And be like, fuck, that movie is really good. [01:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm kind of at a point where I watch that film every few years, because I'm just like, yeah, this is kind of what I want from Dragon Ball at this point. [01:35:43] Speaker B: Friend of the POD and future collaborator Evan, at one point for the ifja, was, like, pushing that film. [01:35:49] Speaker A: Yeah. He really tried. He might have succeeded in getting it nominated. I can't remember which good. That was before my time, before of our times. [01:35:56] Speaker B: But, yeah, for. But when we're doing Rise of Spielberg, we talked to Matt about this trilogy, and he talked about how Evan was constantly pushing for that movie and how I think either Matt tried at that time or maybe later tried to watch it and was kind of confused. [01:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, yeah. [01:36:11] Speaker B: Because again, yeah, like, it's. Dragon Ball Z is just an iconic franchise that has so much that you can, like, really dig your teeth into. And we would recommend that if you want to watch the movies while you're watching the show or maybe if you think a movie might be curious to give a try and then watch the mainline series, I wouldn't recommend the Broly films to be the initial point for that. [01:36:38] Speaker A: There's other, better movies to jump into. [01:36:40] Speaker B: But I will say that the Broly films, at a point, do show kind of how, at a certain point in the era of Dragon Ball Z, how even just a little bit different was enough to gravitate so many people into the idea of, like, wanting more of this. [01:36:56] Speaker A: I mean, it gave Broly. [01:36:57] Speaker B: It made him canon later. [01:36:59] Speaker A: Broly has a legacy in the franchise for a reason. Like, even though, like we said, he's barely a character in those first three films, he's. He stands out because of how tough he is and how loud he is and how angry he is. [01:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:14] Speaker A: And just a great fan. Spent the next 20 years begging for him to come back. [01:37:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:19] Speaker A: Finally got. [01:37:20] Speaker B: And they even made his design even better in super, in my opinion. I love his design in super, but, yeah, that's the Broly trilogy. It was honestly, you know, even though Bio Broly was a slog towards the end, it was funny how it went from, like, you know, us being very engaged with legendary Super Saiyan to the point where I think with the third, with Bio Broly, pure silence in the living room. [01:37:42] Speaker A: We just kind of sat through that [01:37:44] Speaker B: it's not even like hatred either. I mean, again, it is a one out of five. So there's probably a little bit of hatred, but it's more just like. It just feels like the most. Scraping the bottom of the barrel. [01:37:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a movie that kind of makes you feel nothing, which is in some ways the worst kind of movie you can watch. [01:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:01] Speaker A: Not to say that this is one of the worst movies I've ever watched, but it's like I'm. I. We watched it last night, and it was already hard for me to remember. Story. [01:38:10] Speaker B: Yeah, the first film is solid, and it. You can. We can definitely see why it was popular at the time, but at this point, why we say at the time is because we've gotten better since second Coming. Feels like we're heating nachos in a lot of ways, and then Bio Broly just shouldn't exist. [01:38:28] Speaker A: Why are we here? [01:38:28] Speaker B: Yeah, why does this keep happening? [01:38:30] Speaker A: But, I mean, you know, I will take pretty much any opportunity to drone on and on about the Dragon Ball franchise. You know, it's one that has been near to me since I was very young, and I think the same for you. So, you know, I think this was a good. A good audible last second pick in the void left by Mononoke. So glad. Oh, glad we had an opportunity to talk about Dragon Ball on the pod, because probably not a lot of opportunity for trilogies there, I would think. [01:39:05] Speaker B: I guess if we want to do in the future the Dragon Ball feature films, because those. There's only three. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And same team, too. Bio Broly is not good, but it's not Dragon Ball evolution. And I can give it that. [01:39:19] Speaker A: Not offensive. [01:39:20] Speaker B: Not offensive in that way. But going into July, we have two big episodes. A loaded July, we have huge episodes in July. But the first one is actually the return of Matt Hurt, who's coming back after Spielberg episode. [01:39:37] Speaker A: Our last guest is also our next guest. [01:39:39] Speaker B: Yes. We are discussing a director who at this point in his career has. I said, I think for the longest time, we would agree that this man has had a blank check career, it felt like for the last decade. And now he is releasing truly his biggest, blankest check I think any modern director has been able to do. And we are discussing, in honor of his newest film, the Odyssey. We are discussing in July, the rise of Christopher Nolan. [01:40:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:09] Speaker B: We are discussing his first three films, which are following Memento and Insomnia. [01:40:15] Speaker A: And if, you know, if the average person's gonna recognize any of those, it's probably gonna Be Memento. [01:40:21] Speaker B: Yes. [01:40:22] Speaker A: Because that is kind of what put him on the map as a. As a sort of director to watch. But following an insomnia. Those are films where he's working with major actors. Like they're not tiny little indie films. [01:40:37] Speaker B: Pacino and Robin Williams. [01:40:38] Speaker A: Robin Williams, respectively. Yeah. And all of that is before Batman. [01:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:45] Speaker A: Before Inception and Interstellar and any like, any of the things that make him the name. We know he's. He's doing these little genre thrillers. [01:40:55] Speaker B: If you. If you're like me, your first Nolan film was Tenet. No, I'm fucking with you. For a lot of people probably out there, their first Nolan film was like Me, which was Batman Begins. I don't know if that was your first one too. [01:41:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:08] Speaker B: I mean, so like Batman Begins is for a lot of people. They just kind of think of it as like, that's the beginning of Nolan. [01:41:13] Speaker A: Right. [01:41:14] Speaker B: When he in fact had three other films. [01:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Well. And interestingly also, I think Memento is kind of for a lot of people our age and around our age was probably like one of the early films that people like us were like when they were first discovering cinema as like an art form was. [01:41:36] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:41:36] Speaker A: Oh, the guy who made the Batman movies made this really weird. [01:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:41] Speaker A: Non linear crime thriller, Memento. And it's really fun. [01:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah. This is not a stick to Memento as a film because by the time we're recording this, but it is yet [01:41:50] Speaker A: to watch Baby's first like cinephile movie. [01:41:52] Speaker B: It is a college poster. Like a poster on a college room. [01:41:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:56] Speaker B: Kind of film because. Yeah. It's got Guy Pierce, Carrie Anne Moss. [01:41:59] Speaker A: Right. [01:41:59] Speaker B: It's in its version of telling a narrative is very fascinating. [01:42:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:42:04] Speaker B: So much so that there was actually, I think a re edit that they released later that is, you know, notoriously worse because it's just not as interesting. Yeah. And so it's like, you know, it's interesting to kind of go back to those three films because at this point, at least for me, and I think. I think for you as well, these three are going to be the. The biggest blind spots for Nolan because I pretty much, from Batman Begins on. [01:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:42:26] Speaker B: Have seen his stuff. And you've seen Momento. [01:42:28] Speaker A: I've only seen Moment because I've yet. [01:42:31] Speaker B: I've yet to see any of these. But Memento is again. Yeah. Like Andy said once, kind of the ide. The idea where like the word kino was getting thrown around. [01:42:38] Speaker A: I think in a way, Memento served as like a sexual awakening for a lot of cinephiles. [01:42:45] Speaker B: I mean, probably, you know, in the [01:42:47] Speaker A: sense of, like, oh, I know what movies are now. [01:42:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:49] Speaker A: Because again, in the same way that, like, Slaughterhouse Five was, like, somebody's first. Like, I love books now. [01:42:55] Speaker B: Yes. You know, and considering Nolan after the Dark Knight becomes the man that made the Dark Knight, Memento ultimately becomes the film where it's like. I actually think Mementos is best. [01:43:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Right, right, right. [01:43:06] Speaker B: Dark Knight's a little overrated. [01:43:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's the real cinephiles favorite Nolan. [01:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:43:12] Speaker A: And then. [01:43:12] Speaker B: And then you just hear like a. Just hear a smack. Like, stop it. That's enough. And, yeah, it just. I'm excited to go through it, especially with Matt, because I think Matt has only. I think he's, like. He was only seen. Momento. [01:43:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:25] Speaker B: Because. Yeah, it's. Following is the one I know the least about because it's his earliest. [01:43:29] Speaker A: I know nothing about that film. [01:43:31] Speaker B: And Insomnia I'm very fascinated by. Because if. Not only is it like, Nolan working with Pacino, but Nolan working with Insomnia, [01:43:39] Speaker A: I think Insomnia is Robin Williams, but [01:43:41] Speaker B: it's also Robin Williams. It's Pacino and Williams. [01:43:43] Speaker A: Oh, is that okay? I thought one of them was one. [01:43:46] Speaker B: No, because it's. Yeah, I think. Double check for me. Now you're making me scared. [01:43:49] Speaker A: Well, no, I mean, look, I said I knew nothing about following, and I guess I meant it. [01:43:54] Speaker B: Okay. Following. I don't. I think it's. [01:43:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, no, you're right. It's Pacino and Williams in Insomnia. [01:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:00] Speaker A: I'm sorry for slowing everything. [01:44:02] Speaker B: No, it's fine on everybody. No, but it is kind of fascinating. [01:44:05] Speaker A: Everybody's turned off the episode because of God. [01:44:08] Speaker B: No, it was when we said it's. When we said Dark Knight was not as good when they just, like, kind of cut it down. [01:44:13] Speaker A: Like, I'm done with these guys. [01:44:15] Speaker B: They didn't hear. But, yeah, it's. Yeah. It's just fascinating to think of, like, Nolan now being like. I think we actually, as we were recording this, there was a piece that just released where it turns out that Robert Pattinson was the only person to not immediately say yes to the Odyssey. He's the only one who read the script when offered. So now, at a point, it's funny to think now this is where people are with Nolan to go back. [01:44:36] Speaker A: I also don't think there was a part for him when he read it, apparently. So, yeah, like, created a part for him to be. [01:44:43] Speaker B: To take on, but apparently Nolan was also, like, no one asked to read the script until you. Which is so funny. Their whole relationship is fascinating, and I love that for them. But, yeah, this thing, like, now we're at a point where, like, no one could say yes to Nolan. No one can say no to Nolan and then go back to an era where, like, he's working with Pacino and Robin Williams. [01:45:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Before he's even, like, a known director. [01:45:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Like two or three years before. In a super serious film. Because they're, like detectives, I believe. [01:45:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just. It's gonna be very fun to go through it. Maybe it'll be enough of a fun time. It'll, you know, distract both of us from the fact that we can't probably get 70 millimeter Odyssey tickets for probably a fucking month. [01:45:26] Speaker A: They went on on sale a year ago. [01:45:28] Speaker B: So ridiculous. That's so ridiculous. And no, I'm not gonna see Brand New Day in spite. I will see that because I want to see Spider Man. [01:45:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [01:45:37] Speaker B: But I'm not gonna go see that in spite of the Odyssey getting boycott [01:45:41] Speaker A: Christopher Nolan support marginalized Marvel films. [01:45:46] Speaker B: But, yeah, tune in on the 4th of July when we talk about the rise of. Of Christopher Nolan with Matt Hurt. But as always, I'm Logan Sowas. [01:45:56] Speaker A: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:45:57] Speaker B: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.