Episode 129: The Rise of Nolan (with Matt Hurt)

[00:00:19] Speaker A: This would be the one episode where I could just say it and say it's Memento style and just cut it into, like, 18 different pieces and just, like, rearrange it as he. [00:00:32] Speaker B: I did that on Obsessive viewer. Yeah, like 12 years ago now. It was ridiculous. I was proud of it at the time. It was really good. But then again, that was early days of the podcast, so I will never go back and re listen to it. But basically we recorded everything chronologically, and then I cut it to where it was in Memento order, and that was. [00:00:59] Speaker A: It was. [00:01:00] Speaker B: It was a fun experiment. I think it would have been better if we were better, but it was like the 13th episode of the podcast and, you know, still finding our bearings. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Hey, I mean, look at us now. Back to Memento. If you do another obsessive viewer episode on Memento, for some reason, just make it even better than that. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yes. This is the cold open, Andy. I can see it in your face. [00:01:25] Speaker B: This is. This is what? The cold cough. [00:01:27] Speaker A: For a brief moment, I saw his eyes glaze over and wondering if this is what it was. And because of that, we're gonna jump into it. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:01:40] Speaker C: And I'm Andy Khan. [00:01:41] Speaker A: In Odd Odd Trilogies, we take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, thematic element, or just numerical order, and we discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding them. In June, we did the Rise of Spielberg in honor of his newest film, Disclosure Day. And as to start off July, Specifically on the 4th of July, in honor of truly one of the biggest blank check directors we have to this day in terms of his current run for, like, the past, I'd say three to four years, we are getting to his newest, biggest epic that Truly could go either as. As a recording. This could go either way in the zeitgeist. It feels like. Yeah, with every new trailer, every new thing we learned about this, we have people that are crazy about this new film and other people that are really, really hesitant about what this will become. I am, of course, talking about the Odyssey, because today we are doing the Rise of Nolan. We are discussing Christopher Nolan's first three films, which are 1998's following 2000's Memento and 2002's Insomnia. And we're not just doing it alone. We have somebody here who just couldn't stay away. He was here a month ago talking about Spielberg and his favorite film of all time, the Sugar Land Express. And now he's back to talk about Nolan and what I assume is his favorite Nolan film, Interstellar. We're not talking about that today, but maybe you'll find a way to get in here back into the pod. We're so excited to have you back, Matt Hurt. Matt, thank you for being back. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you guys so much for having me. I'm so glad that. I'm so glad that the episode where we're talking about three Nolan movies is on July 4th, when we talked about Jaws in the last one I was on. [00:03:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:32] Speaker B: But no, yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. It's. It's a pleasure and it's always it. I was excited to revisit these three because I haven't. I hadn't seen any of these three since, I mean, over a decade ago, probably. So. Yeah, yeah. [00:03:49] Speaker A: That's another thing, because this is the first time I'm seeing all three of these. And for Andy, this is the first time you've seen following an insomnia. [00:03:56] Speaker C: Correct. Yeah. So we've got a. We've got a diversity of perspectives, a diversity of virginity going. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:03] Speaker A: And when it comes to Nolan, there's a lot of going around, [00:04:08] Speaker B: and I'm the only one. Like, I'm. I'm the seasoned slut here. [00:04:13] Speaker C: You're downright Nolan. [00:04:15] Speaker A: You had such a cheeky little grin on your face when you said that. [00:04:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:04:22] Speaker C: All right. Does this make you a Nolan nympho? [00:04:24] Speaker B: O. I. I would say, yeah. [00:04:28] Speaker A: An Emma. An Emma Thomas Tramp. Well, of course, in case you don't know for some reason who Christopher Nolan is, he's a director, writer, who is most notably known for the Batman trilogy, Chris, The Christian Bale films, as well as the prestige Interstellar, most recently Oppenheimer, and has had one hell of a career from 1998 on. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Words. [00:04:55] Speaker A: So what better way to honor the fact that this man is bringing the Odyssey on 70 millimeter on the big screen than talking about his humble beginnings? Because Nolan, who's born in Westminster and in the UK in 1970, his first film comes out when he's, you know, 27, 28. It is, I think, made about $10,000. Is the budget. [00:05:18] Speaker C: Like, it's not a huge budget is what I read. But yeah, it's tiny. [00:05:23] Speaker A: It's a tiny budget. Not obsession amounts. All right. I know it is much less than that, but it is fascinating, you know, knowing where he goes in his career, especially right now, going back to truly a humble beginning with a black and white non linear narrative with very few actors. Actors. Actually, the lead actor. I didn't know this until I looked into it more. The lead actor of the following is in other Nolan films as well as the. The love interest. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker A: The love interest, I believe, is in Batman Begins. The guy that plays Cobb, I think is only in Following. He's not in any. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, he's not like, he's not in anything. Like, that's his only acting credit. I think he's like an architect or something. [00:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah, but. [00:06:13] Speaker B: Which is a shame. I like not to jump ahead or anything. But I really liked his performance. [00:06:18] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Like, I think he could have been, you know, something. [00:06:22] Speaker A: I honestly could not stop thinking that he had Pattinson energy compared to the rest of the cast, which is a good job. There's just something about him that just feels like, you know, very. To a degree, almost very similar to how I felt where I saw Pattinson and Tenet, where I'm like, this is odd. I don't know why. This is, like, not perfect in my head, but I'm really liking what's going on in this moment. [00:06:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:49] Speaker A: But, yeah, following is 70 minutes. It is black and white. It is about, you know, a man just down on his luck, depressed, is a writer, hasn't written anything in a while, and decides to get inspiration just to begin following people. And ultimately just follows, I guess, to a degree, the best and worst people to follow. And then hijinks ensues, and one of those people end up becoming. End up being a burglar who just does it for the thrills. His name is Cobb, which I'm assuming he is the inspiration for the name of Leo's character in Inception. [00:07:27] Speaker C: Right? I would. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I would think so. [00:07:30] Speaker C: Like, there's a spiritual lineage there, because, [00:07:33] Speaker A: I mean, how many cobs have you both run into? Very, very specific. [00:07:39] Speaker B: I've only. [00:07:40] Speaker C: All the time. [00:07:42] Speaker B: I've only run into two, and they're on my scre [00:07:47] Speaker C: cop trilogies. [00:07:51] Speaker A: But, yeah. Guys, what did you. So I guess start off with Andy, with your first time watching, Following? What was your first impression like, going into it? [00:08:01] Speaker C: Well, you know, I mean, in, like, conceptually, it felt to me a little bit like, you know, kind of first pass for something. Like Memento is like, clearly a guy who was intrigued by the idea of nonlinear narrative. And how do I, you know, how do I tell a story out of order that feels like this is the only way it should be told? And, you know, I think for a, you know, first film amidst all the other firsts that come with Making your first film, I. I thought it was pretty impressive that he kept it relatively coherent and compelling throughout. Is it something that's like, beyond the kind of the admiration I have for the achievement of it at a relatively green point in his career, I don't know that it's something I'll really revisit. I found the characters to be a little, I don't know, opaque, kind of vague and. I don't know, there are times where it feels like it's kinda not killing time, but like where it's kind of suddenly a mood piece rather than like, you know, advancing whatever story it's trying to tell. Which is fine. It's just not. I thought it was. I thought it was a fine movie, a good a. An impressive first attempt. Not something I will probably really want to like, pour over many more times. [00:09:44] Speaker A: No, I'd agree with you on that. At least for again, being my first time watching this, I was. I couldn't let go of the fact that just his first film out the gate is non linear. [00:09:56] Speaker C: Like I just fucking with it. [00:09:58] Speaker A: Yeah. A man who literally will later in his career, career, when he doesn't have to go non linear, just decides, ah, why not? It's just funny to think that from the beginning it's because this is just what he likes to play with. Like, clearly the Nolan sandbox is just non linear when it comes to what's going on. [00:10:18] Speaker C: Well, and like, I appreciate that that ambition was there from the start. Not just in the final film, but like that He. He wrote the film intending to tell a nonlinear story. He like wrote out the whole story in chronological order and. Or he wrote the whole script in chronological order, then reordered it the way he wanted it to play in the film. Which I thought was cool. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:41] Speaker C: You know, it's not like something he found in the process. It was like, right, this. The idea I have in my head only works if I fuck with the continuity of it. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Matt, how'd you feel going through it? So [00:11:00] Speaker B: I saw this movie probably when I was like 16 or 17, [00:11:05] Speaker C: and [00:11:06] Speaker B: I've seen it a couple times since, but this was the first time seeing it in like 10 years or so. It's interesting to kind of chart my relationship with Nolan throughout the years. Like, I saw Memento when I was like 15. It was like my first like, you know, obnoxious teenager cinephile movie. And I thought, oh my God, this is. This is the most brilliant thing ever. And then when I eventually saw Following, I think it was just like one of those things where I didn't really. I didn't really get it, but it was more like, oh, this is Nolan's first. That's fine. But revisiting it now, I'm struck by a couple of things. Because over the years I've followed Nolan's career like everyone has, and I've gotten to the point where I feel like Oppenheimer was such a. Such a new thing for him in a way, because it is. I mean, it's still that nonlinear thing. It's still got a bunch of Nolan trademarks and everything, but it's telling a very deep story, deeper than I think [00:12:16] Speaker C: we've seen from him in terms of interior too. Like so much of it happening in the protagonist's head. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. And it has like a sense of. It's less about story because it's about an actual person. And so that was kind of like this eye opening thing, like, oh, he's still got it. Because I feel like over the years, as much as I love the vast majority of his movies, it just seems like each one is like he's trying to out clever himself. He's trying to do something unique. And like he plays with time and nonlinear structure and in like so many ways. And it's like, like you said, Logan, some of them, I don't need that, like, just tell the story. But it is interesting to see this as kind of a. Not proof of concept for his, for his, like, style, but it's an interesting way to tell a neo noir story through his own, in imperfect, in some cases, methods of storytelling. And I think that it holds up really well. Like, I would not be opposed to watching this again at some point. It's not one that I'll flock to or anything, but there's. There are just these little bits and pieces here and there that are really captivating. Like, even with the characters being kind of, kind of bland across the board, it. What kind of sucked me into it was that nonlinear thing like, oh, why is he choking on the. On the gloves? What? Like, how did he get like his face all messed up and everything? And there's some fun, like, tricks in the storytelling that he, that he employs in that. For that reason that feels like. It feels like the way that he tells this story and has it in that noir kind of feel. It's. It's to kind of draw a comparison to like Pulp Fiction. It feels like it is trying to do that nonlinear thing, but much less flashy. Like, it is so like just subdued and. And I think that really Works for the story being told because it's. It's as. As convoluted as it can get. It feels like it's. It's actually pretty straightforward in the end. Yeah. So I liked it. Yeah. [00:14:37] Speaker A: I think it also is fascinating too, that, like, this film, at least when it comes to main characters, at least for these first three films, is foreshadows that in terms of Nolan's interests, he seems to very much like the idea of a lead or just a protagonist that is trying to be something that they aren't like. I think all three of these films basically have a protagonist. While Memento, there's a reason why he's like that in terms of just like an actual medical condition. But like, with insomnia, with Memento and this, it is interesting how each one of these leads, like, the interesting aspect is the fact that they are tied to this idea themselves that isn't true, but they're trying to constantly evoke it into reality by playing the part or taking the tips and tools or just like, the perception that other people have of them and trying to use that as to their advantage. And I think it's. Right, it's interesting with this one because I think this definitely the lead. The man. Or is it just like he's not called the shaggy man. Right. [00:15:37] Speaker C: He's just like his. [00:15:38] Speaker B: The young man. [00:15:42] Speaker A: For a second I was trying to remember because it's just Cobb that has a name. [00:15:45] Speaker C: Cobb has a name. And. [00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah, the young man. The old man. [00:15:49] Speaker C: Titles. [00:15:49] Speaker B: Yeah. The blonde. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Yeah. It just like. It's very fascinating how, like, immediately you can tell that there's something going on under the surface with this guy that, like, we probably will never get. Because. Because why would he be honest about the fact that he's probably, you know, insecure about this or that. But there is, like, this energy that connects you to where it's like. Yeah, it is kind of a. Like, if you just follow somebody, that is kind of intriguing to see how other people live their lives, kind of go from that angle and then see [00:16:23] Speaker C: the product of it. Nolan has talked in interviews about how, like. So when he made this movie, he was like a bachelor living in London. I think he was living with his friend. I can't remember. I think his friend is in the movie. I can't remember which one he plays. But they were living in London, you know, and they were. They just like, got into people watching. Basically. They would just, like, watch people walk around and they were like, man, this is really cool. Like, you know, you can really entertain yourself. Just like immersing yourselves in the lives of strangers. And then somebody broke into their house right when that was their fixation. So it was like kind of this combination of, oh, I'm interested in people on the street. And also I'm traumatized by my own being. [00:17:09] Speaker A: Why would you do this to me? It's funny too. The thing of him is like, especially living that bachelor life, inspiring this film, especially when his future wife and at the time this movie comes out, his, you know, his new wife, like, is just freshly married with Emma Thomas, who is like his partner through everything from this point forward. She is like his project producing partner from following all the way to Oppenheimer. It is, it is fascinating to watch. Just see a bunch of names on that screen that, like, ultimately, as we go through these films where it's like, that is a Nolan regular. That is a fascinating. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:46] Speaker A: And speaking of like a Nolan regular, at least early on, David Julian was kind of surprising in terms of the components. [00:17:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:17:53] Speaker A: All three of these movies. [00:17:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Just being in my head being like, God, that's right. Why would Hans Zimmer score a six thousand dollar film? Like, right. He's got to start with somebody else. And Julian's score, I think, for this as well as all three of these films are just very fascinating. It's really cool to see the people that he's already. Nolan's pulling into his creative kind of endeavors so early. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Uniquely, too. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I, I was really. I mean, Memento's score is. Is one of my all time favorites. Like, it's just, it's so great in like, not again, not to jump ahead or anything, but like with Insomnia, I feel like that was kind of just a lot, a lot of the same kind of stuff. But I think of those of the three, like, Memento is clearly the best in terms of score, but. Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah. It is interesting to see him working with someone when his, you know, his future career is so dominated by like Hans Zimmer and, And some like, really powerful music. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And I mean, so I guess the question would be for both of you and just for the conversation, would you consider this your least favorite Nolan film? Because. [00:19:14] Speaker B: No. [00:19:15] Speaker A: No, I love that. No, I would probably say it's not my least favorite either. But now it begs the question, and again, we will talk about following, but I want to know what is your least favorite Nolan. Nolan film? I guess, Andy, if you don't know, I'm, I'm. I can see The Terror. [00:19:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it might be. Actually, for me, I, I didn't. I. I did not vibe with Dunkirk initially when I saw it, but on Rewatch I enjoyed it or I at least developed an appreciation for it. So I. Maybe this might be my least favorite, but I still don't dislike it. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Yeah, fair. Matt. [00:19:57] Speaker C: Oh, wait. Dark Knight Rises. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Oh, it's that you called mine. That's my least favorite. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Because. And again, I will even say, I think with that being anyone's least favorite film shows the signs of quality. Quality. Because as much as I don't like elements, I don't like a lot of elements of Rises. That film looks good. The actions, you know, really top notch in places. The score is good. It still has objectively good parts to it, but I would say at least following is 70 minutes. So that's why it's just above Dark Knight Rises. [00:20:30] Speaker B: I honestly, I. I love Dark Knight Rises. Good. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Not wrong, man. I'm not saying if you. [00:20:38] Speaker C: This will be. [00:20:39] Speaker B: You're kicking me off the pond, right? [00:20:41] Speaker A: He is only relegated to Curacao. [00:20:44] Speaker B: Yes. I've been demoted to what, you know. Yes. But my least favorite, Nolan. And this is maybe not terribly fair just because of the circumstances with which I watched this the one time that I've seen it, but Tenet, that is a movie. Yeah. That's a movie that on paper, I should have loved. It should have been like, I was so excited for it to be like an Inception esque movie and Inception is one of my all time favorites. But the circumstances that I watched, it was 2020. I was in the throes of like really bad Covid symptoms and watched it at home on like, like with it with a cold ass, like rag over my head for the fever. So it's possible that, you know, I could revisit that and get a new appreciation for it. But. Yeah, but I also feel like. And this gets a lot of play in terms of just general Nolan conversations, but the sound mix and like all of his freaking movies, like. [00:21:55] Speaker C: And that was kind of the zenith of that issue. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker C: Everybody was like, I had no idea what anybody was. [00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll be completely honest because Andy and I saw Tenant in IMAX when it was coming out. I didn't. I didn't end up because I. I guess I am a Tenant defender. But I'm also completely. I like Tenant where you're at, Matt. But like, yeah, it took me a second watch away from the IMAX experience to really enjoy that film because, yeah, that IMAX mix was migraine inducing. It was kind of. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The choices in. Yeah. And even Interstellar, I've. I've seen that two or three times. There is like at least one. One specific line of dialogue. Maybe it's in the docking scene when he's talking to tars, but there's like one line of dialogue that in. In the two or three times that I saw the movie, I have no idea what he says. Like, not the faintest clue. So. [00:22:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:56] Speaker B: So I don't know. He needs. I don't know. Nolan's trash. He needs to get his ears checked. Terrible. Terrible. [00:23:04] Speaker C: Well, it's interesting too that like, I mean, we're only one movie, one movie removed from Tenet. But like Oppenheimer at least as I recall, had like no issues. [00:23:17] Speaker B: Oh yeah, I agree. [00:23:19] Speaker C: It was just. It's like, okay, I guess he listened to feedback, but I remember him being like, you know, pretty defensive of the sound in Tenet when. When people were critical of it. Yeah, no, I was a little surprised that Oppenheimer was like so clear. [00:23:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean. Yeah, it is. Oh my gosh. It's. It's a hard hurdle to go to get people into Tenet, especially if their first time was the theater experience. Because of just everything. [00:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:48] Speaker A: But it is crazy just how because of Tenet we are at the point that we are like basically everything that was. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:55] Speaker A: For that film has ultimately led to this. But. [00:24:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Getting too far ahead of the future. Going back to following. I think one of the things that's kind of fascinating about following that, like I think we've all kind of known about him for a while, but I think it's fun to watch, especially being a little bit disconnected from his popular era, is that I love the fact that there's no feeling of pretentiousness with the non. Linear style. Like a genuinely feels. It feels like for the longest time there was a point when talking about Nolan that people talked about how if you liked Nolan, it's because you're smarter than most people. Because Nolan thinks he's smarter than everybody. What in reality, like, especially recently, I think from basically Tenant onwards, especially when he was talking about the process of. Of that film, we just kind of got to realize that Nolan, it is just a guy, like he does not see himself as like a high iq, kind of like I'm better than you kind of. He just genuinely loves laying in that sandbox and if he finds an interesting angle to it, he will commit to that angle. Even if it's not like with the Sound mixing, intent probably the best decision. But it is fascinating watching, following words like, yeah, the. The moment you brought up Matt with the. [00:25:13] Speaker B: The glove like that. [00:25:15] Speaker A: That happened so fast. Especially like later with like momento, there's so. There's constant fade ins and outs. So like your brain can. Following doesn't have that. So it's like, right. That early part of the film, it is like a shock where it's like, why the. Is he so beat up in the scene? And then it's like realizing. [00:25:34] Speaker B: And it's such an. And it's such an interesting just experience watching it. Because like I watched for this viewing, I watched it at like 1:45am on like Saturday night into Sunday morning. And like, I wasn't that tired or anything. But I'm watching and I'm like, yeah, this is 70 minutes. I can, I can knock it out. It'll be fine. And like I'm watching it and like there are moments where I'm like, okay, well, okay. I'm like, I wasn't looking at my phone or anything. I was like laser focused, locked in, as the kids say. And I was like, okay, well wait, did he have that? Then? Was it like, okay, when are we in the timeline here? But then I was just like, you know, just trust, trust the process. Like it's going to all kind of shake out at the end. And to be honest, this is not a hot take. But this is talking about like Nolan in general. That one of my pet peeves, one of the things that kind of grinds my gears is that kind of. Is the kind of pretentious film, bro, sort of attitude that comes with people who talk about Nolan movies, present company excluded, including myself. But like people that are like, oh, you know, like, like you said, Logan, like you didn't like this movie because you're not smart enough to follow it and everything. And like that. That is so like reductive. But I always think of like when I hear that kind of argument or that kind of like point being made, I just think about Inception, which I said is one of my all time favorite movies. It's. It is almost aggravating that every. Almost every single line of dialogue in that movie is explaining what's going on on screen. Like when, when he. When. When Cobb and Ariadne are like at the fortress, the snow fortress thing. And. And she. She's like, oh, wait, are we killing part of his. Part of his subconscious? Like, we're in the, in the middle of a firefight and he's like, no, they're just projections. It's like, we know, dude. Like we know the rules. You set it out pretty clearly. Like you don't need to have that. Like, it just feels like way overdoing it. And that goes from him becoming a blockbuster filmmaker and more like wide audience. Like you don't get that kind of dialogue in following or Memento or even Insomnia. It's more confident in the storytelling. And I think that that's something that I was really taken with when watching at least following Anne Memento this time around is like, yeah, this is him. This is him doing his story his way without having to make those concessions for the audience because he trusts the audience to follow, even if one of them is a dude sitting in his recliner at 1am trying to watch following. But it still tracks. And I don't know, as much of a blank check director as he is, I do feel like he still has those moments where it's like, okay, well you need to over explain things so that you know, the shareholders will be okay. [00:28:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And part of that too, I think though is that he's become more and more interested in. And this goes back to, I can't remember which one of you said it, but like kind of out that urge to outdo himself. Yeah, he, he gets increasingly, or has gotten increasingly interested over the course of his career with like really dense concepts and like, you know, this can't just be, it can't just be a heist movie. It's got to be a heist movie set inside people's dreams. And Interstellar can't just be a space movie. It's also a time travel movie and a Love is Science movie and all of these things. And so like that is, I mean that's kind of the most refreshing thing just about this trilogy in general is it's, it's going back to stripped down Nolan of you know, pretty clear cut story concepts and even the non linear storytelling still fairly, you know, direct and obvious plot structure in a sense just, you know, he's going back to his roots. And also on, on the whole pretentious Nolan fans thing. The thing I love about that love and hate is like the great irony of the fact that like all of those people who are constantly like, Nolan's the greatest filmmaker ever made. You know, if you don't like his movies, you're just stupid. It's like all of those people are like they're, they're an embarrassment to the student of film that Nolan is. Yes, like all of those people Nolan's probably like the only film, like, classy director that they watch. [00:30:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:38] Speaker C: You know, they're watching Marvel movies and Star wars and Nolan. [00:30:42] Speaker B: Yep. [00:30:42] Speaker C: And they're saying that Nolan is the greatest filmmaker of all time. It's like, yeah, great filmmaker. But like, oh, yeah, you know, quit putting people down when you probably know nothing about the art form that he loves. [00:30:53] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like, it's like, come on, guys, you know, put on a Kurosawa or two. Yeah. You know, broaden your horizons. [00:31:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And if you don't like it, you might just be too stupid. [00:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Watch all of Woody films [00:31:08] Speaker B: and if you really like them, then don't talk to me. [00:31:13] Speaker A: I will say, if you're somebody out here listening to this episode and you're not a Nolan fan, Godspeed that you're like 30 minutes in and you're listening. But I would just say, I know a single interview clip is not going to make you fall in love with a person 100%. But I have to say, if you have always been iffy on Nolan, I. His talk about his favorite films to watch just on television is the best, like the most grounded, normal shit no one's ever talked about. Where it's like, of course his favorite Fast and Furious film is Tokyo drift and his O2 TV film is Ricky Bobby. Like Talladega. It just. I never have forgotten hearing like the, the interviewer be like, Christopher Nolan. You can't be serious when you, you say you've seen Teledega 30 times and there's just a moment of silence and then in a horrible, genuinely horrible, like, hillbilly accent. Well, if you're not. Oh, no, like he just does that. He does the line. It's just like, oh, that's great. That's just. That's just delightful. And it's just like thinking about that and how watching this, it's hard not to. Yeah, it's. It is a little. It's fun to watch his version of like smashing action figures together in a sandbox in this way. Just kind of like. And also just love the fact that the non linear aspect in this movie feels less like how it does in Memento, where in this. It almost feels like. It almost feels like a man had a drunken bender and his kind. [00:32:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:41] Speaker A: Piece it all together these last few weeks. Compared to like Memento, where that's basically a man going through a pot. Like a possible medical condition that may or may not be psychological, but also. [00:32:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Clearly trying to be there to just like be a mystery aspect to It. While this one's more about just trying to coherently explain. This is the crazy up month I've had. There's this weird. There's this guy named Cobb who called me gay when I followed him. And then he took me to a house to rob and then he said I looked like I looked homeless, so I cut my hair. It is, it is kind of. Yeah, it's. I agree, it's very basic. It's very straightforward. But it is kind of. It is fun to watch the movie and clearly see him play with non. Linearity but it doesn't make the film feel like it's like a test film. Like he, he still kind of trusts in his writing, the, the placement of the scenes. And also his actors who I think, you know, the main, the, the young man I think is really solid. I do think Cobb. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:49] Speaker A: My favorite actor out of all of them, I think he just, he has the most fun to play with. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Yes. He, he gives the movie so much personality that I think without him. And that's why it's so like, it's so crazy to me that he isn't an actor. Like he. This is his only acting credit because like without him, if anyone else is doing that role, like it runs the risk of being that kind of. Not, maybe not pretentious art school kind of movie. But like, like just. It doesn't have the, the, the energy that he brings to the role. And I think that's something, something important to it. But also to your point about Christopher Nolan being, you know, a student of film and everything and knowing like he's like he's. He knows more than any of us will ever know. But I think because of that and because of that passion that he has for the medium and for art itself, that's why he is able to I guess get away with the nonlinear structure in like all of his frickin movies. Like I like. I mean, yeah, it gets a little tired here and there. Like I don't need Dunkirk to be like three different things. Yeah. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Where it doesn't have to be that it's Dunkirk. [00:35:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the trade off is, at least from my memory, there's no like over explaining dialogue like, oh, I'm Tom Hardy, I'm in a plane and this is World War II by the way. This is, you know, there's weapons on this plane, so there is that. But in terms of like structure and everything, he's able to, he's able to navigate nonlinear and just wacky weird forms of storytelling that way. Without breaking it, without. Without coming across as someone who's trying to out clever himself. Even though some cases he is. Does seem like he's trying to out clever himself. But at least in these early movies, it's like, there's a purpose to it. There's like, this following is a really good, like, noir story that is pretty basic and straightforward, but because of that nonlinear structure, we get like, we get some really fun bits that are like, oh, this is where the earring was. This is like, oh, now they're in. Now they're in the young man's apartment. [00:36:14] Speaker A: That is such a funny scene. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Oh, my God, it's so good. He just, he clocks them just perfectly. It's so good about this guy's apartment. [00:36:24] Speaker A: Is he handsome? Is he cool? Look at that typewriter. [00:36:30] Speaker B: No, he's a loser. He hasn't written anything. [00:36:32] Speaker A: And depression. He should have. He would have a word. I think he says, like, yeah, what about the typewriter? Isn't he a writer? And he goes, he. You're a writer. He had a word processor. [00:36:42] Speaker B: That, that line was so freaking good. Just. [00:36:46] Speaker A: And also the Batman. The Batman picture. Yeah, like the, the sticker on his door too. [00:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so good. [00:36:56] Speaker A: I, I genuinely had a lot of fun watching it. I was kind of just like. Because to me, I didn't figure out the non linearity. Didn't fully like really wrap my head around it until I realized the difference between young man in a suit and then shaggy young man. I think once I thought about, yeah, he's got a different long hair. Okay, so he's. Nolan's doing non linearity from the get go. Let's get go. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:18] Speaker A: From that point forward, it was kind of fun to piece it together. And unsurprisingly, it is much better in Memento. But I think with what they do in following is kind of a fun test drive of can the audience watch this out of order and still be engaged and not feel like, you know, because the last thing you want to do is do non linearity and be like, okay, so the answer is going to probably come to me in like 20 minutes. So I just have to like, right. Blindly watch until we get to that point. And yeah, not the case with this and this. I think you're just genuinely curious throughout the whole runtime. You're like, okay, you know, like, I'll get the answer at some point. [00:37:55] Speaker B: Do you, do you guys think that the. The reveal, the ending reveal, that kind of. I don't want to call it a twist ending? Because I. I mean, it's kind of a twist, but just like the. Do you think the ending justified, you know, the previous 68 minutes beforehand in terms of the nonlinear structure? Do you think that he told the story well? Or is it something that feels like it was all pointed toward, like, getting to that ending as a. As a gotcha thing? I. The thing that I kind of keep thinking is this. And not to disparage Shyamalan too much, but like, M. Night Shyamalan. Yeah. Like, his. His first handful of movies before he got into director jail were. They were written, like, they were, like, twist first. And there is some really good storytelling in those movies. But here with Nolan and following, it just feels like, oh, he. It feels more. More central to the story he's telling rather than writing toward, like, a surprise ending. Does that make sense? [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I think so. I mean, to be honest. [00:39:04] Speaker B: Okay. [00:39:04] Speaker A: I think if anything, because we. Because we don't. Yeah. We don't really cut back to the cop until the very end. It's at the very beginning. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:13] Speaker A: I feel like if there was maybe a little snippet of Cop in the middle, it would feel less like, as you're watching, like, all right. I think I've seen everyone come back at least two or three times in the last few minutes except for the cop. So clearly we're gonna end on that scene. And then it's like, well, what is. Yeah, I think at that point, it definitely is that energy of, like, okay, is there something more that we're not catching? And then ultimately, it basically just goes like, here you go. This has all been given to you, but you've just basically, like, the young man been riding along with it, not paying, I guess, either paid attention or just been like, ah, you got duped. You're going to jail. Like it is. Again, it's very solid. But I do think, like, yeah, it's. I. As. I was thinking M. Night, too. I was there as very much. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Well, here's this whole thing. I think of things that you brought up, the discrepancies. What about this card that has your name on it? And it's like, okay, I remember this. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Which. [00:40:18] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, the kind of, I don't know, flashiness or twistiness of the final minutes. Like, it's an easy ending to kind of point to and be like, yeah, that's that kind of thing. But also, like, I guess I felt like this kind of movie, the way it's structured, the pacing, the tone of it, you almost need something like, that in order, like, because the rest of the movie feels like seeds being planted or, you know, threads being kind of revealed or whatever. And you know, if this was just a 70 minute mood piece, non chronological mood piece of characters sitting around in other people's houses and things like that, you know, and then credits roll, it'd be kind of like, you know, was it all worth it? [00:41:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:13] Speaker C: And you know, it's. Is it a, you know, perfect or mind blowing ending? Maybe not. But like, I think, you know, I think it's earned or at the very least it's needed as kind of a bit of firm punctuation on what's otherwise kind of a sleepy movie. But not in like a bad way. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:33] Speaker A: You think ending on a shot of Cobb in the streets and then the next time you see the street, there's. You can't see him and it's like you can't follow him anymore. I think it's a good way. That's a good way too. Yeah. But at the same time it's like if for some reason the twist or like twist or just like the reveal more so of just like all the setups that have happened the whole time where basically Cobb has been over the young man from the very beginning, even before he was aware of it. It is kind of a nice little ending moment just to have like. Like just a solid just watching people walk by, getting back the idea. Because by the time you get to the end, the following aspect has kind of been pushed to the side. Because now. Oh yeah, wants to be a thief. He just. See now he wants to evoke what Cobb is going to put on to him in terms of his quote unquote training. And so it's kind of fun just to have a little moment of just like seeing Cobb. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Everybody else. And then just cut to black. [00:42:31] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. And having. Having the young man, having the protagonist be someone who is a loner, who doesn't have anything going on in his life. I think that with a. If the movie had more time, because I know that this was filmed over like months, like in very short spurts and everything. From what I read, if there was enough room to add on like 10, 20 more minutes to really dive into like what makes that the young man tick and everything, and why he's susceptible to manipulation and persuasion in those ways so that he can be set up for all of these things at the end, I think that it could have been a much richer movie. But I do want to mention that we do have here a like not only is it Nolan's first, like, nonlinear thing, it's Nolan's first Kill the Woman movie. So. Yeah, another. Another filmmaker trademark there for Nolan, [00:43:41] Speaker C: I will say. Also another kind of. I know some. Something that's nice to look forward to after following is like Christopher Nolan not writing all of his own dialogue. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:01] Speaker C: Because I think in Memento, he writes the script, but it's based on his brother's short story. And so, you know, I think there's an improvement there. There's still moments that we'll get to that are kind of like, yeah, okay, Grace. But I think Jonathan's the better writer of the two or becomes the better writer of the two. So then. [00:44:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker C: As they. As they become partners behind that, I think that is a boon to Nolan's career. [00:44:29] Speaker A: And then Insomnia, I believe, is the only scripts in his career where he's not credited, apparently. I think he did the Final Pass. [00:44:37] Speaker B: Yeah. That's what I read. [00:44:38] Speaker A: Wasn't credited for it. And. [00:44:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And not only is it, you know, not his, but it's also a remake of a Norwegian movie. It's a stone, which we'll talk about. [00:44:50] Speaker A: It's a Stalin film. It's a scar guard. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker C: But, yeah, following being a fully Christopher Nolan script is. Yeah, it's not terrible by any means, but there's a little bit of like, I don't know, Baby's first noir film or Baby's. Yeah, Baby tries French New wave type. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:11] Speaker C: Dialogue that's, you know, it's a little goofy, but that's also. It's a first film. [00:45:16] Speaker A: Apathetic, cynical characters. [00:45:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:19] Speaker A: This character thinks this is what's cool. [00:45:22] Speaker C: This should be cool. [00:45:23] Speaker A: And kind of. That kind of. Yeah. [00:45:25] Speaker B: It's also mid-20s dialogue. Really. Like, that's. That's what it kind of comes down to as well for me as an old. An old face. [00:45:39] Speaker A: I don't know why his name was revealed to be John following at the end of the film, but other than that. But I think. Yeah, following. I think we all have said that. It's like, it's solid. You know, there. There are worse ways to start your career. Yes. It's no duel, but at the same time. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:45:57] Speaker A: It really does show that, like, you know, from the get go. Go. I think it's fascinating, especially looking at the beginning of so many careers, just like that first movie kind of being like, this is what I'm interested in kind of generally. [00:46:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Whether or not I'll focus on it more in the next film. Or maybe there's an angle here that I didn't touch as much that I'll get into with the next one. This is just kind of like what my vibe wants to be at the moment. And yeah, going into that, like just to go for from 98 to 2000. Oh man. A genuinely huge jump and I think would argue is when people think of what Nolan's first film is in their heads. You know, if you're a big one, if you're one of those big. Nolan's one of the smartest man in the world. You probably think Batman Begins as his first film, but in reality it's 2000s. Memento, a film that I would agree with you. This was the film that would. When people would talk about or use the term Kino unironically, it would have a poster of Memento or talk about Memento and it's non linearity. And to be honest, like one of the best things about doing the POD is not only getting to just, you know, have you be a guest man, have a bunch of other guests talk about all these fun films, but it's fun just to go, yeah. Into a film that's had so much hype over the years. A film that I've always wanted to fully watch and never have, then to go into it personally and be like, fuck, it's hitting all the notes like I'm genuinely really enjoying this. I think this movie's great. This movie shows a lot of Nolan's strengths in following now seen very much so. Like the non linearity is a lot more interesting. I think instead of it being some guy trying to piece together the. The narrative to a cop, it's now a mystery tied to the non linearity, which is more fun. And they're a. A wild health condition where it's about a guy who's pretending to be a gumshoe detective in a Neo noir who has no ability of his short term memory so he cannot make new memories. And following his journey on how he keeps his mystery going, how he's going his investigation, his suspects are frank friends that are helping him. And as we're watching just constantly trying to take in it is a cinematic version of watching someone put a puzzle together. Like, it doesn't sound like that would be fun, but it's really fun. It's really. [00:48:26] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:48:26] Speaker A: To watch. And again, it usually would depend on who is putting the puzzle together. And my God, who could do better than Guy Pierce? [00:48:36] Speaker B: Oh my God, it's. [00:48:37] Speaker A: I texted Andy watching him and I was like this man and his American accent. Like, it's so good. And also, I'll put it on the pod because it doesn't have to be, but I want Andy to know I think Annie could pull off a Leonard. I think you could do that for Halloween. [00:48:53] Speaker C: A Leonard. Leonard Cosplay. [00:48:55] Speaker A: I think you could do it. [00:48:56] Speaker B: I could definitely see that. [00:48:59] Speaker C: I couldn't. I couldn't tell people I'm Leonard Shelby, though. I'd have to say, like, I'm Max Memento. [00:49:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:08] Speaker A: Lenny Guy. Have you ever seen that? That still of him with the Polaroid? That's who I am. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:49:19] Speaker C: But did you ever see this picture on the wall of a guy's dorm room in college? [00:49:24] Speaker A: You wouldn't forget that guy. Don't forget the poster. You can forget the man. But yeah. Matt, how many times? Actually, Andy as well. How many times have you both seen this? [00:49:34] Speaker B: Because it's. [00:49:34] Speaker A: This is my first. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Oh, God. [00:49:37] Speaker A: And you see it twice? [00:49:39] Speaker B: I've. I mean, countless times. Honestly. Like, I. [00:49:42] Speaker A: 15. You're now currently 19, so how many times? [00:49:46] Speaker B: Yes, I'm 19 and a half. No, I mean, countless. Countless times. Like, this was this movie I was obsessed with in high school. Like, I. When I was 17 or maybe 18, I don't know, the summer before my senior year, I worked in a movie theater. And this was 2004. And, like, I remember it was the summer that. Oh, my God, the time travel movie with Ashton Kutcher, the Butterfly Effect, came out. And, like, one of the, like, assistant managers who was a very nice guy, I saw the Butterfly Effect after a shift, like, the night before. And the next day, like, I was talking to him and I was like. I was like, yeah, I didn't really like it. I thought it was kind of. Kind of lame. And I remember, like, he was. He was like, oh, why? Because it made you think. And, like, in my head, in my head, I was like, motherfucker. My favorite movie's Memento. But no, this movie is, like. It is so freaking good. I own the DVD that it's the special packaging that makes it look like a medical file. And I even, like, I lost because I'd loaned it to my friend Tiny, who's also my co host on Obsessive Viewer. This is back in high school. I loaned it to him, and I think when I got it back from him, the little paperclip thing that's in the folder fell off and I couldn't find it anywhere. And so I stole it from the COVID box at Blockbuster the next day. So That I could replace it. Yeah. But. Yeah. The one year I went to college in Evansville at usi, I took a film class the second semester. And one of the movies that we started, studied and we watched was Memento. And it was just so cool getting to see Memento, like, in a lecture hall, projected and everything. And it was a blast. Even though the douchebags that sat in front of me, every single movie, they would turn to each other and be like, well, that's two hours of my life I won't get back. Yeah. Which just. Oh, anyway, this movie's brilliant. [00:52:18] Speaker A: I love it. Of Memento is accented by all the people around you in the past that said, oh, what a movie. Sarcastic. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:29] Speaker B: Every. Like. Like, my touch point for Memento throughout my entire life is people that have annoyed me. [00:52:35] Speaker A: You'll ever talk to me and my son Mr. Momento ever again? [00:52:39] Speaker B: Yes, Max. Memento. Let's. Yeah, but no. Yeah, this is brilliant. It's amazing. The nonlinear structure works perfectly because it is very much integral to the plot. It brings us into Leonard's experience in a very inventive way. And the way that Nolan plays with that, with having Mark Boone Jr. Recurring in random scenes, but him slowly. Us slowly learning, like, oh, shit, this is the wrong room. We're actually double booking you because we're fleecing you for money. Just those little bits and pieces there are really good. I mean, it improves upon everything that worked for me in following, which is honestly not that hard of a thing to do, but in the sense of creating a mystery, a central mystery, having it very much focused on a central idea that he's trying to do, but also giving us all of these breadcrumbs, like, with following, like the gloves in the mouth thing, the missing underwear, the earring and stuff, those are all little fun things that we come to learn as the movie progresses. But here, those little things, whether it be him drinking a beer in a bar that's been spat into or. Him being chased by a guy, these things all come together in such an inventive way. And each time that you get the context of what we saw before, it's always just so surprising and energetic and just really slick. And it made me question, like, this time around, like, Nolan could have kept going with, like, just noir stuff, like neo noir, like, but, like, he. Because this is, like, he did such a great job with these two. With these two movies that I would have been fine with him doing these types of, like, mysteries and stuff. But. But no, he had loftier goals so. Yeah. [00:54:57] Speaker C: But I love it well, too. And it's also like, part of me wants Nolan at the height of his power now, especially with the technical prowess. He has to go back to something that's like this simple but subversive and unique all at once, where it's like he could do this for a million dollars and he wouldn't. But like, you know, a concept so clear and. And not low stakes, but small in scope as this, but with. With all the power he's accrued now would be phenomenal. [00:55:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:55:35] Speaker A: He went back to this in terms of. Just scale wise. It would have to be. There'd have to be such an intention to the experiment as to why he's going like that. Whether it's to start something new. [00:55:47] Speaker C: There's got to be a way for IMAX to market it. Yeah. [00:55:50] Speaker A: You know, like, it's. I'm glad he's not the first guy to do the whole I'm gonna film a movie and then you're not gonna see it for a hundred years. Like what? [00:55:59] Speaker C: Robert? Yeah. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:56:00] Speaker C: Years ago. A movie that. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Yeah, the movie you'll never see. Yeah. [00:56:05] Speaker A: Which is I. [00:56:06] Speaker B: About bourbon or something. [00:56:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I never see it, but I bet it's a six out of ten. But it's. [00:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:13] Speaker A: I mean, to be honest, it's. It is just fascinating. Just, you know, because. Yeah, I think I agree with you, Andy. There is kind of this. There's an intrigue to. Like if Odyssey comes out. I think one of the craziest things that'd be kind of funny would just be whether right out after Odyssey or during Odyssey, like a trailer is just like. By the way, Nolan made a ten million dollar film with like these three actors. [00:56:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:37] Speaker A: I think at that point that movie. [00:56:39] Speaker C: So one room character drama. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Yes, One room character drama filmed entirely in IMAX busters. [00:56:45] Speaker A: On that. Like it's. It is a point. Like, it is kind of curious if he could even want to. Like the big thing to do after Odyssey. I would be curious is if he would ever want to do comic again, which I think would be. I would. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:56:58] Speaker A: And fine if he didn't. Because. [00:57:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Because. Yeah. I do think there's a part of me. I agree with you, Matt. Like, they're especially watching even the parts of Insomnia I liked. I think it's just like. Like he just could have. There is an alternate reality. Reality where he just does noir, Neo noir for the next 10 to 15 years. Or. [00:57:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:19] Speaker A: Maybe during the true detective twist term, he actually does Limited series. [00:57:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:26] Speaker A: The idea of, like, what if I have six little movies to tell a story? Just kind of build with that and. And I don't know, there's just like, considering this film is 26 years old, and I gotta say, thank God this movie didn't come out in 2001, because I feel like, you know, the funniest gag you can make, a Memento, is just telling Leonard that the towers fell after every loop. It's just like, your name's Leonard. Did you know the Towers fellas would just be like, I got him again. Any horrible tragedy that just happened. It is kind of wild how I. I think the one thing I was surprised. Surprised about with Memento that doesn't really show up until about halfway in is the sick sense of humor that the movie has. I think it does accentuate it later on, but I think it's like it happens at one specific moment. I think it's when halfway through the film, there's a guy in a closet and he cannot remember where that guy came from. And then he calls Teddy, or Teddy, played by Joe Giuliano, who's great. I think it's fantastic. [00:58:32] Speaker B: Oh, my God. So good. [00:58:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:34] Speaker A: And he comes in and then he's just like, yeah, we'll just use his gun. And he's like, that's his gun. It's like, do you think someone like me would have a gun? And he's like, God, I hope. Like, oh, yeah. Forward. I think it's like we start to see, like, more of a cheekiness through Guy Pierce's performance and through Teddy and as well as, like, even when we find out later that people are manipulating his short term memory issues to. [00:58:57] Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of funny. [00:58:59] Speaker A: It's kind of funny. It's actually. [00:59:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:02] Speaker A: In a dark way where it's like, I'm not used to Nolan being like. When I think of Nolan funny. I think of like in Dark Knight Rises where it's like. So that's how that feels like when. [00:59:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Little quippy things. Yeah. And like him and Dark Knight telling Alfred like, oh, I'm gonna tell. I'm gonna tell him it was your idea or whatever. Like, those are fun, like, cheeky, like, comic book movie moments. But yeah, there is like this. This vein of humor that runs through at least these first two films that I was. I'm a big fan of from him. [00:59:35] Speaker C: It's just a meaner streak. Like, it's. These movies have kind of an edge to them that I feel like is, you know, Maybe deliberately or maybe not. Kind of worn off. The bigger his movies get. And I don't know if that's a. You know, he's trying to reach a wider audience or he's just trying to tell a film that. Or tell a story that's, you know, not bogged down in. In the underbelly of society or whatever. Yeah, but, yeah, that is. It is something to appreciate, especially about this film, is just how rough it is. [01:00:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:00:11] Speaker A: The most unintentional funny moment, I think, is when the chase. Dodd's chase with Leonard starts when we have him pull him over and then it's just like, nice car. And he's just going. Yeah. And then immediately Dodd pulls out a gun, shoots. And I swear to God, in the edit guy, Pierce is already out of the car. Like, he's teleported on the other side of the car. Yeah, he. [01:00:38] Speaker B: It's really, really quick. It does show him getting out and everything. Like. Like, it's. It's so. It's so quick. And like, I do. I do think some of the editing in that sequence in particular is a little. Not sloppy, but it just felt like. Like when. When Dodd pulls up next to him and shows him the gun and like Leonard just looks forward and drives. Drives off. Like there's something to that. The way that it's edited, the, like, cut to the reaction shot from Guy Pearce. It just feels like a little like. It feels like, oh, this was like the fifth take or something. It feels like there's not. There's not the energy that's meant to be there. But. Yeah, that. I don't. [01:01:20] Speaker A: I can't think of a modern day Nolan doing the scene where Leonard kicks down the door to the wrong motel room. [01:01:28] Speaker B: Oh, that was great. Yes. [01:01:31] Speaker A: I was like, that is not what I think of when I think of this, man. It's just like. [01:01:36] Speaker B: That's right. [01:01:36] Speaker A: Almost Shane Blackie. Just a little. [01:01:39] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [01:01:40] Speaker A: Like, that is fascinating. But. But I mean, in terms of just like from the beginning to the end, it is. It is a film that. I think. So when you. Actually, I forgot to clarify this with Andy. So this was your second time watching Memento? When was your. [01:01:56] Speaker C: Yeah, second, maybe third. I've. I may have rewatched it in college or something. But, yeah, I think I first watched it in high school, either with my older brother Luke or at his recommendation. Because high school for both of us was kind of when we, like, I don't know, discovered film as an art form more than just like, you know, whatever big Pixar or Spider man movie was coming out, you know, and, Yeah, I don't really, really remember my first viewing, but it's one of those movies that I think for a lot of people, because it's kind of a gateway to Kino, as you said before, it leaves an impression. It's one of those movies that I just. When I think of movies, I think of Memento and I think of how it's structured and the black and white versus the color and the more extreme scenes, how intense they are, specifically because of the sporadic structuring of it and all of that. So, yeah, I don't have a distinct memory of my first viewing, but it was nice to watch it this time and just kind of feel like, yeah, this. This is what I remembered. It's great. [01:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah. No fear that it's gone down at any point. [01:03:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, or even that. Like, I mean, I always love when I watch a movie that I already love and I discover something new in it. [01:03:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:34] Speaker C: And ironically, I don't know that that really happened for me in this, but I think it's just because, like, it seared itself into my brain on the first watch and, like, kind of stayed there. Exactly. Not that I remember the whole movie beat for Beat or anything, but, like, you know, it just. It is the movie that I remembered it to be, and that was thrilling. There is. There is one scene that I had not really thought about since I last watched it, which is when. What's her name? The. [01:04:08] Speaker A: Carrie Anne Moss. [01:04:09] Speaker C: Carrie Anne Moss, yeah. She. [01:04:11] Speaker B: Natalie. [01:04:12] Speaker C: She's, like, trying to piss him off, and she's just calling him Slurs and like, calling his wife a. And he's a weak [01:04:23] Speaker A: trinity a year prior to go. Yeah, to that. I mean, great one, two punch film wise. [01:04:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, and she. She, you know, plays the hell out of that scene that's also like. That's a scene where it's like this. This is a Nolan script, I think. [01:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:42] Speaker C: Chris Nolan. This is the guy who wrote Following. [01:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:45] Speaker A: John, I need you to tell me, is this okay if I put this scene in your short story adaptation? John's just like, I. This is not in the short story at all. Why'd you put that? It just feels. Just feels right. I will say, though, the biggest jump between following and Memento, something we talked about off mic a little bit yesterday. Andy was the cinematography. Because we do want. Need to talk about one of Nolan's mainstay cinematographers up until Interstellar, from Memento all the way up to Dark Knight Rises. There was the introduction in this film of Wally Pfister. [01:05:25] Speaker C: I think that. [01:05:26] Speaker B: Yes, it's, It's Pfister. Would you, would you guys say that his, that his photography in the film was transcendent? [01:05:35] Speaker A: You know what's funny is when I think of Fister, I think about the fact that I do think of transcendence mainly because of the line of like the man who. The cinematographer of like Christopher or like, yeah, like the guy that helped with the Dark Knight. Because, like, if you look again, I, I hope he's, you know, doing fine and well, whatever. He's. [01:05:59] Speaker B: Yeah, he's. But if you look, he's directing tv, he's good. [01:06:02] Speaker A: If you look up his cinematography credits, at least on IMDb, I think the last two. One of them is the second. Nacho fries, taco Bell. Yeah, it is truly transcendence. Genuinely put a halt to certain aspects. It seems like they put him in director jail. [01:06:24] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:06:25] Speaker A: I've never seen Transcendence, so I can't, I can't say whether I argue with [01:06:28] Speaker B: whether he deserves it, honestly. Like, I saw it in the theater. I, like I was rooting for him. Like I wanted, like I obviously, I want, you know, as much really cool sci fi filmmaking just in general. But like the movie just left no impression. It was very, just. It didn't, it didn't really work that well. But I don't know if it. I don't know if it was bad enough to warrant being not only not only in director jail, but like he's like, he's like the Jack Nicholson caretaker of director jail now. Like he's always been there, like he's never coming out. [01:07:11] Speaker A: It's fascinating because again, this, like Minto is like his first real film. It seems like, like he does other things. [01:07:19] Speaker B: Yes. [01:07:20] Speaker A: That I was even telling on Andy. Like it is very funny how I've got. Of course, a man named Pfister is mostly known for softcore pornography from the 80s and 90s up until 2000 when he does Memento. And then from Memento, it's Insomnia, Batman Begins, the Dark Knight Prestige. Like this movie, Memento. I think a lot of the reasons why it stayed so much in the conversation about great films, especially with Nolan, or just in General the truth, 21st century, is the fact that this film nails what we think of for the longest time as the Nolan style from the get go. [01:07:56] Speaker B: Oh yeah, it looks. [01:07:57] Speaker A: There are shots in this where it's like. That feels like Batman Begins. That feels like prestige. That feels like this. It's like. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:08:06] Speaker A: It's like the colors, too. Striking blues and like, Pierce's eyes. [01:08:10] Speaker C: Oh, this is a very saturated. [01:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:13] Speaker A: Just like, as much as I like the cinematography and following, I think it gets the job done in that first film. It is such a shift where it's like, from this point forward. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Okay. [01:08:23] Speaker B: This is. It's one of the stars of the show. Yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Again, like you said, the score is great, but, Julian, it just really works well in the use of black and white in this movie, I think is a lot of fun. [01:08:36] Speaker B: Yes. [01:08:36] Speaker A: Gives it more of that noir energy from. A bit. [01:08:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. And it helps us. Helps keep us oriented to the story. Like, following had those bits and pieces thrown in and scattered everywhere here. It's like. Okay, well, it's being told in reverse. We get that. But there is this running thing that's, like, basically the beginning of the plot that's in black and white, that's all gonna converge at the end, which is actually like, the middle of the story. And then technically, the middle. I don't know. But anyway, like, all of these. All of these little pieces, like, it's very. It's very smart at guiding us through it. And then flash forward, you know, 20 years or so, and he's got Tenet, which. It should have been the same kind of deal, but isn't for me. I don't know, Matt. [01:09:25] Speaker A: I think Memento did need a temporal pincer movement, though. I will give it. [01:09:29] Speaker B: I. You know, that's what I was thinking of. And you know what? In Leonard Shelby, that's a great name, but I would much rather it just be the protagonist. Yeah. [01:09:41] Speaker A: That's my favorite part about Tenet is that John David Washington's name is just the protagonist. [01:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:47] Speaker A: There's nothing more to it. [01:09:50] Speaker B: And it's not. [01:09:51] Speaker C: I just think that at the end, right before Leonard kills Teddy, I think Teddy. Teddy should have said, I'll see you at the beginning, friend. [01:10:01] Speaker B: Yes. [01:10:02] Speaker C: And that would have really. Then I would have known. I had. You know, Wikipedia told me it was told out of order. I was just trying to figure out. [01:10:10] Speaker A: I will. I will. [01:10:11] Speaker C: I think if Teddy said that, I would have gotten. I will. [01:10:13] Speaker A: I will. Ask Matt, since you've seen this movie so many times, have you. [01:10:16] Speaker B: Yes. [01:10:17] Speaker A: Dared to watch it in chronological order? [01:10:20] Speaker B: I think I did once, like, a long time ago. Because that's another thing with that DVD that I have the, like, special edition. Like, it's. It's. This is such a, like, 2000s DVD release thing, but like, you can access the chronological version of it by, like, doing, like, some weird, like, up, down, ABAB thing, like, code on the menu, and then it unlocks the chronological order. But I think I did once. But it's in chronological order. It's. I mean, it's a fairly straightforward story. Like, the magic of it is, like, not knowing what's come before. And, like, I think that does that so incredibly well. Especially when you get down to the, like, heart of it is like, okay, you know, he has just killed this guy who is a drug dealer. And then, I mean, it's a fairly convoluted plot with Teddy, you know, manipulating things so that he can, you know, get money and everything. But to watch it in chronological order, it's like that mystique is not there. It's just like, oh, this is a story. [01:11:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I also imagine it would maybe at times be even more confusing because, like, the non linearity, the jumping past or forward to reverse color to black and white, those that really rhythm, and the way those scenes begin and end, where exactly they begin and end, cues you in to, like, oh, this is where. Not just where this takes place in the story, but this is how the scene I just watched ended up happening. Because, like, the spitting in the beer scene, you know, the scene before that just starts with him, like, drinking the beer and he's like, thanks, you know, and she's like, on the house or whatever. And it's not until the next scene that it ends with her spitting in it, you know, and that kind of. That is always. Really. Is like, you're kind of learning what's actually happening around him because he can't. He can't piece that together himself. He's physically incapable. And like, if you were to watch that chronological order. She spits in his drink and he accepts it and drinks it, and it's like. I guess I'm just supposed to assume he lost, you know, his memory. [01:12:46] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:47] Speaker C: Reset. Right then. [01:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, the magic of it is we're in his shoes. Like, we're. We're experiencing what he's experiencing. Yeah, yeah. [01:12:56] Speaker C: And like, with that third eye of, like, getting to see his memories that he can't see. [01:13:02] Speaker B: Mm. Oh, yeah. And, like, having. I think that if I were to watch, like, following in chronological order like that, it wouldn't. It wouldn't be as destructive, if that's the right word to that experience, than memento. [01:13:18] Speaker C: Yeah, it would. Yeah, it would be kind of fine. [01:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:13:23] Speaker A: I assume again, Nolan was fine with it, but I Think it just feels so disrespectful to do this film in chronological order. [01:13:29] Speaker B: Right. [01:13:30] Speaker A: It just had a certain point. It's just watching a bunch of people take advantage of a man's condition, what it feels like. And again, I think also the. The traditional final cut of the film does such a great job that every time we're in a new scene, there's not a lot of, you know, like, build up into the next scene. It's not like there's not even, like, five seconds of breathing time. It is as soon as we fade. [01:13:57] Speaker C: Right. [01:13:57] Speaker A: We're in almost like his brain's coming back on for a second. [01:14:02] Speaker C: Well, it's just. Right. And that's what I meant by like, cueing you in is like, if that was all continuous and chronological, you totally lose that. You lose the reset that goes on in his brain every time. [01:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it just. It just becomes a story of a guy talking on the phone for, like, 15 minutes in black and white, and then meeting. Meeting Teddy and then. And then him, like, setting him up to be the fall guy for. For, like, to be his new John G. And then the rest of the movies, like, building up toward the end. Like, with the. With the structure of the movie, we get, you know, the surprise ending of that at the end rather than the front. [01:14:45] Speaker C: I think it just becomes a really bad dark comedy film where the only joke is that this guy forgets shit. All this stuff keeps happening to him, [01:14:55] Speaker B: and he's like, okay, it reminds me, and this is a slight tangent, but, like, kind of like 50 first dates, which is a movie. I haven't, like, it's. I haven't. I haven't seen it in, like, decades. But just the thought that, like, at the end of that movie, you know, she wakes up every day and, like, they're married and stuff, and, like, they have kids now and everything, and she has to be reminded of that. I was listening to a podcast where they were talking about that, like, how much, like, what hell would that be for that woman to wake up during her pregnancy and, like, have no memory of having, like, being, like, morning sickness, like, having just like. That's a horror movie. That is a. That is a horror movie. So that's been in my head for a while. [01:15:41] Speaker A: Adam Sandler comes out like an old golden age Hollywood guy, goes, those are the pictures. That's what makes it fun. Don't overthink it. Rob Schneider just got a funny accent. Look at him. Yeah, this won't age poorly, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I. It's it really was kind of like. Because the only. Genuinely, the only scene I've seen in this movie going into it is when he's running away from Dodd or running towards. [01:16:09] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:16:10] Speaker A: Because, like, that was like the. For some reason, that was the only scene where he's like, is he following me? I should catch him. No, I am the one being like, it is. It was just kind of fun because again, I. As soon as we started getting Dead Wife Simulator 2000, I had a strange feeling, like, this is probably. It's going to end with him leading to, like, probably killing his wife on accident or something like that. And just like, ultimately that's what happens is that, you know, the whole Looking for John G. Is a noble effort, but it also is a noble effort that's already technically happened if we. If you believe Teddy. Because this is. I mean, that's the thing too, is by the time the film ends, it's just like. I don't know if anyone is telling the truth. I think the only person I trust right. Is the hotel manager. I think the discount guy's the only chill guy who's like, yeah, I'm overcharging. But, like, what are you gonna do? You've been here for like a few weeks now. Like, it's. It's like. It is fascinating just how much the film is giving you all that information out the get go. And I feel like the film isn't trying to hide its inspiration or even just hide the fact that, like, even though it's right, it's not an M. Night film. I do think there are a lot of tricks that Nolan does in this that just kind of have the energy of, like, going back into a mento another time being like, oh, so they did give that to us very early on. [01:17:30] Speaker B: Yes. [01:17:31] Speaker A: And that. And I gotta say, when it comes to the Steven. Is it the Stephen Jarcus or Jenkins? [01:17:38] Speaker C: Sammy. [01:17:38] Speaker B: Sammy Jenkins. [01:17:39] Speaker A: Stephen Jablowski. I have to give that man props. Oh, he's amazing character actor. The scene where he constantly gives his wife insulin. [01:17:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:52] Speaker A: Well done. He is so good. It's phenomenal how they use that as like, like, oh, how much of this is actually real? And this. And it's the test. And it. But also Thomas Lenon, another person. I was not expecting to see this movie. The guy that was testing Sammy when it comes to, like, the. The shapes. [01:18:13] Speaker C: And one of the who. [01:18:15] Speaker B: Who also appears in the Dark Knight Rises as the Doctor. [01:18:18] Speaker A: Yes, it is. [01:18:21] Speaker B: Same universe, maybe. [01:18:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:18:24] Speaker A: Leonard was in Dark Knight Rising. I mean, it's Just kind of like there is, I think, a very. A mean streak to this movie that I feel like is not, like, overwhelmingly, like, unpleasant. It just feels. It feels like. Again, I think Nolan throws career has not been the one known for being very optimistic and not because he isn't optimistic. I think a lot of his narratives are almost about just the folly of man, and especially when it comes to the folly of man in terms of just, like, how we perceive ourselves. And I think with this, it's just very fascinating to have a neo noir story that is a man who just picks, just basically decides to be a noir character because that just makes the most sense to him. [01:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's the only thing that will keep him. Yes, exactly. [01:19:15] Speaker C: Scenario where he has no. No means of creating purpose. [01:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:18] Speaker C: This is one thing he has. [01:19:20] Speaker A: I'll be honest. I don't know if this is a hot take. Again, I wasn't the biggest fan of how the final scene goes in terms of Joe, Teddy telling him everything. Like, I don't. [01:19:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:19:32] Speaker A: I feel like when that happens, it's like at that point, there is a little bit of following there where it's like, yeah, I kind of pieced a lot of this together. [01:19:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:39] Speaker A: But is this really how this. [01:19:41] Speaker B: So wait, you're. Yeah. You're saying that Christopher Nolan explained the plot to us. [01:19:47] Speaker C: Wow. [01:19:51] Speaker A: I. This is. I think Memento is a perfect example of a film that could have gone three, four hours, and if they kept its pacing and its intrigue, you would never check the time in terms of how much left in the film. And I think by the time there was, like, 15 minutes left in the movie, I think I just saw that there's 15 minutes left. And I was like, well, what the. How are we. How is there only 15 left? Like, how are they going to wrap this up? And so to get again the shot from black and white to, like, color Chef's kiss. [01:20:22] Speaker B: Oh, so good. [01:20:23] Speaker A: But I think just having Joe, just having Teddy in a dusty ass hallway be like, this is all on you. You've all. You are just doing this to yourself like that. It's not a bad ending. I still really like them. In fact, I think the final monologue from Pierce is incredible. [01:20:42] Speaker B: Oh, my God. So good. [01:20:44] Speaker A: Fantastic way to fully end. [01:20:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:20:46] Speaker A: But, like, especially because I think it's like a monologue that is really just, like, really emotional and actually really engaging. And then when you see Emma's tattoo sign show up and you skip into that scene we've already watched, your heart just sinks because you're like, yep, well, we know we're fucking ghost from here. [01:21:03] Speaker B: And just that the last. Like, now, where was I? God damn it. Yeah, Just magic on the page. [01:21:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:10] Speaker B: Just. It's so simple, so great. But having that one thing that I like, I'm always struck by when I watch this movie is a couple of things. One, just the whole idea that the end is, like, that he has. He has given himself a purpose, and it is to kill John G. And, like, he can't remember that he killed John G. So, like, him making the choice to be like, you can be my John G now and going after Teddy. I love the idea of this guy just, like, turning into just basically a serial killer in some. In some capacity. But also the thing that just sticks out to me, this is a nitpick, but I'm like, man, he is really, like. He's really shooting himself in the foot with this by having, like, the tattoo, like, going to get the tattoo of the license plate number. Because, like, that there's only one John G. That that could be. So, like, what happens after? [01:22:11] Speaker A: I mean. Yeah, it's. Gosh, the tattoos. Tattoos are such a great visual thing. [01:22:17] Speaker B: Like, so good. [01:22:19] Speaker A: The don't answer the phone tattoo is, I think, one of the best one. I also love how it's all different fonts. It's just a nightmare to look at his body. [01:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It's just so cool, guys. [01:22:32] Speaker A: I just wanted to go Comic Sans. [01:22:35] Speaker B: Yeah. The remember Sammy Jenkins tattoo always just like, both. Just the look of it is really cool for me, but, like, also just like, the way that he says, remember Sammy Jenkins? Like, with that. Just like. Oh, he's remembering it, like, something about it because it's repeated, like, four times in the movie. I'm like. It's just like. It's one of those, like, earworms that I'm just. I'm really fond of from the movie. [01:23:01] Speaker C: Becomes a vocal tick for you. [01:23:03] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [01:23:05] Speaker A: The same way that Lenny is like, Lenny, gosh, when he pops up in his car outside of Natalie's house. Who the are you? Look at your Polaroids. You'll see me. [01:23:19] Speaker B: Yep. He. Oh, my God. And like, his performance, man, just. [01:23:24] Speaker C: He's awesome. [01:23:25] Speaker B: Unstoppable. Unstoppable. [01:23:27] Speaker A: It really is. When you find out that, like, the three core supporting cast for this man, I guess four is dead wife discount in manager Natalie and Teddy. It's fascinating just why these four are so, like, gravitated towards him and how it's like. [01:23:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:47] Speaker A: Initially you think it's Genuinely to be helpful. And I think for one in particular, I think for, like, Teddy, I think it is trying to be somewhat helpful more than anything, but it is. [01:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah, he's just trying to get, like, his, his. His beak wet a little bit. And he's also. I mean, he's making him, like, kill people. Like, I love that line where he's like. Where he's like, I'm not a killer. It's like, I know. That's why you're so good at it. It's just like, God damn it, Nolan, I love you. [01:24:13] Speaker A: So funny how, like, by the time we get to that scene, we have seen him bum rush, dodge and fight him and just like, actually see him win, like, a little chase on foot and has, like, enough of an intimidating or aura that like, the very beginning of the film when he just blasts Teddy in the face, it is just like, oh, this must be what he does. And this is good at the very end and be like, no, he just like, because of his short term memory loss, he is so confident that you just tell him he can do it and he can do it. I guess he just feels like he can. Yeah, yeah, I get Joe. Joe island is just like on. On all cylinders. Is one of those things where you think like, oh, especially with this next film too. But it's like, oh, my God, I can't believe this guy got to work with Nolan. Like, it is like, oh, yeah. Fascinating because, like, like Guy Pierce, it just feels like it is a crazy. That Guy Pierce isn't just immediately an insomniac because it just feels like, oh, yes, Works on a Nolan level in a way that is like, they should totally just be together and everything afterwards. [01:25:15] Speaker B: Yes. I like, because he hasn't worked with him since. Right? No, no, he need, like, I would love to. I would. I would go. I would go apeshit if, like, it was announced like, oh, Nolan's next movie. Is Guy Pierce doing something? Yeah, Guy Pierce the movie. Guy Pierce is the protagonist again. Yeah. [01:25:40] Speaker A: I mean, it is just kind of like, you know, again, hit as much as I can. But, like, just if you. If you're out there listening, you haven't really jumped the gun on Give it to Memento. And of course, if you're listening this far, sorry we spoiled so much, but yeah, kind of on you at this point. Don't worry. It is. It is still such a worthwhile, exciting experience to watch this movie because it does feel like you're watching hilariously in a cinematic way. And this is going to be probably the most pretentious thing, like, history being made in, like, his career, because it just feels like it will fall. Following is definitely a solid foundation. Like, Memento practically gets the house ready for, like, whatever's about to come in next. Like, it basically. [01:26:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:26:22] Speaker A: Like, you can definitely see from this point forward, oh, whatever comes after this movie. He is not the guy that's made two films, one of them being following, one of them being Memento. He is from the director of Memento. Unless something else. [01:26:36] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:37] Speaker A: Which is, of course, which we won't be talking about this, but we may talk about in the future with Batman Begins and whatnot. But is there anything else you want to talk about with Memento before we get to our final film? [01:26:48] Speaker B: I'm good. [01:26:50] Speaker A: I'll just. [01:26:50] Speaker C: I'll just give a few more flowers to Joe Pantoliano, because I think, Logan, your criticism of the. The kind of Teddy explanation scene is totally valid. And it does stand out in the movie as being kind of the one moment where the film is actually, like, explaining shit to you. So it does feel odd. But I think. I think that scene has never bothered me. Largely in part due to Pantoliano's performance. [01:27:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:27:20] Speaker C: Because he spends so much of that movie imbuing Teddy with kind of every. Every facet where it's like, oh, he's a Weasley piece of shit. He's a conniver, a manipulator. He also kind of seems like somebody, like, I kind of want to be friends with him, you know, at times. Like, he's really good at appearing warm and friendly, and I can't tell if he is or not, you know, so. And part of that also, in addition to his performance, is the script and the editing, you know, developed the way it develops that character to the point where you get to the end of that movie, and it's like, you can totally buy also that Teddy's bullshitting most of that to fuck with. [01:28:02] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [01:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:03] Speaker C: With Leonard, it could entirely be that Teddy's. You know, because we. We get all those scenes with Natalie where she's fucking with him and, you know, and it's clearly spelled out that she's fucking with him. Then you're kind of. It's just as easy to go down the path of, like, well, Teddy's also just fucking with him. And, you know, and then you see the flashes of Lenny's. Leonard's memories, and it's like. It's almost. You could read the film as saying, like, this is how impressionable Memory is that somebody says something to you, and suddenly in your head, that memory's changed forever. And, like, oh, now I don't know what's real. Just because you mentioned it that way. It's like, oh, maybe I did kill my wife. [01:28:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love the way that he. That throughout the movie, like, he's using his instincts. Like he says, like, you know, it's you. You learn how to, like, react on instinct and everything. And, like, there's little touches here and there. Like when Teddy is basically talking to Lenny about. To Leonard about Natalie, and he's like, go right, write it down. Don't. Don't trust her or whatever. And like, he intentionally writes it in, like, wrong handwriting so that he can know, like, oh, this isn't serious. Like, I. I know that this isn't. Like, I don't believe this. So I'm not writing it with intention. Just, like, little bits like that. And I will say. I do feel like I will maybe go back and watch the chronological version at some point soon, until it slips in my mind. But because I do think to kind of go back to that, I do think that there is some interest to be gained from watching it in chronological order because it would be interesting to watch it, to see what. How much of a tone shift it is, because in that order, we get him killing Jimmy and taking his clothes. And then the rest of the movie, he's driving around in Jimmy's clothes in his car. He's interacting with Natalie, who is Jimmy's girlfriend. And like, just like, the bizarreness of that would be really interesting to see in chronological order. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. [01:30:13] Speaker A: I mean, I. I would now talk here and you talk about it. There could be a benefit to watching in Chronicle or just in a different interesting kind of angle to it. I do think whoever made it should be a little bit embarrassed because this implies that this movie wasn't already fantastic as it was. But right as it may, and I will, I will. [01:30:32] Speaker B: I wouldn't be surprised if Nolan did it himself. I'm. I feel like he probably did that. [01:30:37] Speaker A: He probably blamed on John Jonathan. And then if it was John, he'll have to deal with it. But, I mean. [01:30:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, brothers, to clarify. [01:30:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I don't hate the ending. I genuinely just. I think it is something that, like. I think it just throws me off immediately. And I think when I re. Watch the movie knowing, going into that scene, I think it'll be a lot more of a. Just like, okay, so this is where we're gonna. This is the final moment. But yeah, like, he. Yeah, Joe Pano was just like. Like, he's just incredible. [01:31:05] Speaker B: He's just absolutely. [01:31:06] Speaker A: And I think just like, you know, he actually showed up. And I just. I was just thinking, well, the last thing I saw him before this, and it was Wonder Man. He's in, like, a single episode of Wonder Man. He's a lot of. [01:31:15] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [01:31:16] Speaker A: So much fun in Wonder man. And he's playing himself. [01:31:19] Speaker B: Nice. And it's just kind of awesome. [01:31:21] Speaker A: Kind of this thing where it's like he just is one of those guys where it's like, he's like, this guy could literally do the. This is the katana monologue from Suicide Squad Quad, and I'd be invested. Like, he just. [01:31:31] Speaker B: Like. [01:31:31] Speaker A: I think they do. They find the right guy who is just fun and can play sleazy well enough that it is to be like, you're early on in the movie and you're like, okay, so we know he succeeds at what he does. Lenny gets the guy. And then halfway through, you go, hold on. This is a weird vibe. Like, this is not. [01:31:52] Speaker B: This is. [01:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah, seem like this guy killed and raped Lenny's wife. [01:31:56] Speaker B: Right? [01:31:57] Speaker A: And then by the time you get to the end, you're like, I don't think he's fully telling the truth. But at the same time, the biggest. I think the biggest question when the film ends is, is this truly psychological? Like, it is kind of an interesting idea where it's like. I think I was. When I was looking up the whole, like, how do people feel about the chronological order of Memento? I. I'd seen someone just, like, talk about, like, what. Do you believe Lenny is telling the truth? That this is like an actual. It's not. It's a mental. It's not a mental block for him. And I think it's just like. Honestly. Yeah. I guess it makes sense that, like, if he can't remember anything after the. The death of his wife, and then when the. They're the accident, then, like, technically there should just be a black screen. We should not be seeing anything that's happening. But it's. It's just interesting idea that, like, these snippets we're getting are just the only things that his sub. His brain, will let us see. Because ultimately, like, he is making memories. He just doesn't want to put the picture to picture together because it's just not. It's depressing. And yeah, it's. This movie is just so good that I feel like, yes, it would be hard to follow this up with anything. And I gotta say, for our final film tonight, I would have to say, I think this is the weirdest of the three. [01:33:14] Speaker C: The weirdest. [01:33:15] Speaker A: I. I would. [01:33:15] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:33:16] Speaker A: I would say in terms of just like, where Nolan is going post Memento, at least it's like my head, where it's like, all right, I know what we're getting next is insomnia. But it's just like. It does feel like going into insomnia. A lot of it is like, all right, people know who Nolan is. People want him to be involved in stuff, and they need somebody for certain projects. And apparently what happened was at least with this film being an adaptation of a 97, I think what you said, Matt, like a Norwegian. Swedish. [01:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:49] Speaker A: The man, the myth, the sex machine, Stellan Skarsgard. It was basically, they were looking for someone to fill that hole. And then, like, momento happened and they're like, that guy could do it. Let's get him into it. And so in the process, we now have him going from Memento with like, a really strong cast, but, like, you know, a lot of character actors still, like, a little either. Up and coming to four Academy Award winners, I guess five now with Nolan involved. Yeah. And just like, you know, Pacino, Williams, Swank, Steven Soderbergh and George Clooney as executive producers on this film, it is now going in to this detective drama that I just was, like, was just really surprising what the film ultimately ended up becoming. I think I was quite surprised with what the actual inciting incident to, like, the emotional aspect of the film, because, like, the film introduces you to the idea that it's just gonna be Al Pacino. And Is it John Donovan? Is it the actor? [01:34:58] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:00] Speaker A: Character actor who's been in Marvel, ndc, Jeff. [01:35:03] Speaker C: No, [01:35:05] Speaker A: no, gosh. [01:35:07] Speaker C: Martin Donovan. [01:35:08] Speaker A: Martin Donovan, who's. [01:35:09] Speaker B: Who's been. [01:35:09] Speaker A: Who's, like. He's. He's a. I think, a fairly well known character actor. His face has been in many, many films. [01:35:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:16] Speaker A: Pacino and Donovan as detectives, go into an Alaskan wilderness. [01:35:20] Speaker C: Like a. [01:35:20] Speaker A: Just a bum nowhere. Like the. Is it the fishing halibut capital of Alaska. [01:35:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:29] Speaker A: Or something like that Night. [01:35:31] Speaker C: Mute. [01:35:31] Speaker A: It's just trying to solve murder. And halfway through the film, a little, actually, I think about a quarter into the film, that doesn't become really the thing at all. [01:35:43] Speaker B: Right. [01:35:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:44] Speaker A: It becomes this very fascinating turn, which I will admit completely threw me off. Was not expecting this, where a tragedy happens in the process of trying to catch a killer that ultimately sends Pacino Down a spiral that inadvertently gets him connected to the killer. And then the rest of the film ends up being this weirdly fascinating narrative about like, trauma and, you know, the idea of a redemption, but also just the idea of like, you know, of who's at fault in situations like this one. An accident and perception and it is just I knowing, I guess. Is this the first time you're seeing this, Andy? Correct. If I'm. And then with Matt. How many times have you seen it? [01:36:37] Speaker B: This is probably my third time seeing it and the first time in like decades or like 13 years. Yeah. And I've got to say it, it's my least favorite of the three. And I mean, it's pretty, pretty down there with in like my Nolan ranking. And I. And I'm. It's interesting because I keep wondering, like, is that because it's arguably or maybe not so arguably the least Nolan Nolan movie. Yeah. And like, how much of like my not necessarily disinterest in it, but my just like unaffected by it ness is because, like, oh, it's not the Nolan trickery stuff. Like, it is. It is a really interesting, like, detective thriller and like going deep into like Pacino's characters, like, psyche and like his regret, his arc throughout the whole movie. That's really good. But it's also like, it also feels like it's just more a little too. Too much like conventional storytelling from an unconventional storyteller. And I chalk that up to it being not his script or like he. He did rewrite it and everything, but not being like, like him not being credited as the screenwriter. It's not like it's not auteur Nolan. It's, you know, it's, you know, taking a job. [01:38:08] Speaker C: Nolan a little bit for hire. [01:38:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:38:12] Speaker A: Just crazy to think and understandably this early in his career being in that point where he's at now. [01:38:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:18] Speaker A: It is kind of wild to watch this movie be like, honestly. [01:38:20] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:38:21] Speaker A: Weakest. It's one of the weaker Nolan films. Yeah. Because he just feels like he's doing a good job because they're asking him. [01:38:28] Speaker B: Yes. It's all. It's also very much like of the era. Like, it is an early 2000s detective thriller. Like it has, it has a lot of strong things with it because like you said, like, there's. There's Oscar winning actors and people behind the scenes that like, that are incredibly talented. But it does feel like, oh, it's. It's Christopher Nolan doing like, like one of the Alex Cross movies that was that. Of that Year, like the. The movie, like a movie that your parents had on dvd, like when you were a kid and you snuck downstairs to like, watch them watching it after bedtime. Because, like, oh, it's an adult movie. It's like, it's a detective movie with like adult people. It's not Ninja Turtles, but. Or Batman for that matter. But anyway, the, like, I would say that the only flourishes of Nolan that I get in this movie are in some of the like, quick like, shots of just like in Pacino's. In his psyche in his like sleep deprived state. Like, there's there's some really cool imagery and like there's even like a big jump scare toward the end of the movie involving like him driving that. It's just like, oh, yeah, that's. That's really. That's really cool. But. And like the. The foggy thing, that's the inciting incident and like the log chase over logs, like all of these are like, really cool. Like an extension of Nolan's like, noir roots at that point. But it just doesn't. It doesn't feel like a Nolan movie. It doesn't feel like Christopher Nolan because, like, after this he does Batman Begins. Like in between each Batman movie, he does like his own original thing that's like super interesting with each movie. And I don't know, it's just. It. This is the most forgettable for me. [01:40:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. I agree, Logan, that this film, at least in the context of this trilogy and the context of Nolan's career up to this point, this movie is surprising. But. But I think to me it's surprising for how like, unsurprising it is in a way. Like how conventional and, you know, run of the mill, I guess. Yeah, it is. It does feel like. It does feel a little bit for hire. It also feels like maybe Nolan didn't find like a thematic in to the story when he was making it. Like he was, you know, he wasn't able to find that angle that really made it exciting for him and therefore the audience and for the visual storytelling of the film. I think it's. It's a perfectly fine movie, I guess, but it's. It is kind of bogged down with many of the. The problems of most other 6 out of 10 crime dramas of the 2000s. Yeah, it's also funny because, like, it doesn't feel like a role. This is. This is probably a harsh way of putting this, but almost it doesn't feel like a role quite worthy of Pacino. Not. Not that he hasn't done, you know, Stinkers or middle of the road movies before. But like, the character that the lead character is just. There's not that much going on with the film, like, with it for him to. Where it just kind of feels like, okay, you got Pacino. I think. I think one of the popular reviews on letterboxd for this movie is like, first 30 minutes, this guy's really good at his job. And then the rest of the film. Wait, never mind. It is kind of like Pacino's presented as this very Pacino character. This tough as nails, like, super experienced veteran investigator. And then like the rest of the film, he's just kind of like moseying around this sleepy little town, you know, operating on. Running on fumes because he can't fucking get to sleep because the sun won't go away. [01:43:01] Speaker A: There's. There are multiple moments towards the end of the movie where he looks like a ventriloquist dummy without like a someone puppying him. Like, he just so out of it. [01:43:11] Speaker C: Yeah. And like, it's a good. I think a pretty good portrayal of the sleep deprivation that he's going through. I don't think the movie uses that in. To. To, you know, create a super compelling arc for the character. I do think this movie, his character lines up well with the protagonists of the other two movies in this kind of notion we talked about earlier of like, these are guys competing against the version of themselves that they want to be or what they think they should be. It's kind of. It's kind of an. In an imposter syndrome trilogy in a way. It's like, you know, they're there. These guys have this fantasy about themselves that they just can't actually live up to and that it causes a crisis. [01:44:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I will say I think Pacino, you might get my grieve. But I think Pacino because watching his performance, I'm like, I hope he gets at least a few moments, at least towards the end. End, where I'm like, that's There it is. That's the moment here. And I think his. Honestly, his last. His final moments in the movies luster scenes, I think has some of his better lines, his better performance, like, subtlety to it. Because his sleep deprivation at a certain point is very broad. It is very huge. And the most Pacino. It's like, you don't even have to pretend to be like, I wonder what Pacino looks like with sleep deprived. Because I think he really much just. You could see three miles away what he looks like when he sleep Deprived. [01:44:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:44:48] Speaker A: But I will say I think there was something. I think I saw on your letterboxd review. Matt. Yes, I read your reviews. Don't. [01:44:55] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [01:44:57] Speaker A: There was something I kept thinking watching the movie that I was like, this movie is not trying to be this other movie. However, there are similar scenes that I feel like maybe this movie could technically be a lot better if it was trying to rip off seven a little bit more. It's not the same. One of the ways they could have done that. I think the one thing they should have ripped off from seven is not have Robin Williams in the fucking poster or at the top of the Billy. [01:45:26] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:45:26] Speaker A: Because as soon as you are. Because to me, I go in thinking, like, I'm pretty sure Williams is supposed to be the killer, right? Like, I don't remember how I've heard this, but I'm like, okay, so we have Pacino as the head detective and Robin Williams as the murderer. That is a fascinating duo. Like that alone is watch. And then going into it, of course he's second billing. And it's like, all right, let's go. 15 minutes pass. No instance of Robin. 30 minutes pass. And it's like, okay, so he definitely has to be the fucking mercy murderer because he hasn't shown up 40 minutes in. His voice gets brought in because he calls Pacino. And then at the near hour mark of a two hour film, we finally get a shot of Williams and it's basically in a scene that is just a weaker version of the John Doe shows up at his apartment. Silhouette. [01:46:22] Speaker B: Yes. [01:46:23] Speaker A: And it's just like, oh, so this is how we're introducing him. And then for the rest of the film, I will have to say, and this is not indicative of the man as a performer because to be honest, he's. He was hilarious. He was a phenomenal draw. I think he's a great dramatic actor as well. I don't think Williams is entirely the best choice for this role. I think he's a lot. He's an interesting choice and I think if they gave him more to do do, maybe he could play with it more. But since he comes in so late and also kind of admits to it out the gate because it was. Yeah, like, I was like, I wonder if he's gonna be like with Pacino and just be like a local guy and be friends because they're both. And it's like, no. He just basically goes like, hi, I called you because you are blaming me for killing your. Your partner. By the way, I killed the girl. I just want to make that perfectly clear. But I don't know why you're trying to blame me for. I'm insulted that you're blaming me for your friend, and I'm like, this, man, just fucking outright. [01:47:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:47:28] Speaker A: It's. It's so out of the blue. [01:47:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Robin Williams is a really interesting choice for this role if the role had more to offer him. [01:47:39] Speaker A: Yes. [01:47:39] Speaker C: Like, the idea of a really bleak, you know, heady murder mystery crime thriller thing where Robin Williams is your sadistic killer. Love it. I'm on board. You know, when I once I knew that about this movie, I was like, fuck, yeah. How is this not gonna be awesome? And then. Yeah, his. He. He's. He has so little. [01:48:03] Speaker A: I think. [01:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:04] Speaker A: I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that at least from what I've read about the original film, there's just not really a gray area between the two. Like, I think the more. [01:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:13] Speaker A: Aspect would be because this movie basically has Robin Williams show up and go, we're not so different, you and I. And doing that. And the Pacino constantly goes, I'm gonna kill you. And that's kind of the premise for [01:48:27] Speaker B: the rest of the film. [01:48:27] Speaker C: That's their dynamic. [01:48:28] Speaker A: That's their dynamic. But apparently in the original film, Skarsgard is the Pacino character. And apparently there's a gray area where he almost gets to a where point. Point where he emphasized, like, he empathizes with, like, the sexual frustration of the murderer who was clearly using that to kill his victims. He ultimately does. [01:48:47] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm so close to this killer that I'm starting to like, yeah, he definitely does. [01:48:53] Speaker A: From what I. At least from the little blurbs I saw on IMDb, he does way worse things than his version. Than Pacino. [01:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah. From what I read, it's nuts. [01:49:02] Speaker A: It's crazy how it's like, oh, yeah, we're really diving. He goes full into hell with some of these choices. [01:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:49:08] Speaker A: But in the thing. [01:49:11] Speaker B: Sorry, the thing with Robin Williams in this movie is that, like, his character, he's set up as. Or maybe it's. Maybe it's baked into the audience that we are to believe that he is this demented killer because of, like, seven being, like, somewhat of a template or whatever. Like, it being so similar to seven in that respect. Like, oh, yeah, Robin Williams is gonna be fucking crazy in the movie. Like, kind of just goes the opposite. Like, it. It almost seems to, like, try to humanize him throughout most of the movie. And then at the end, he's like, oh, no, no, no. I'm gonna. I'm gonna like kill her and try to kill him and stuff. And like, I don't know. It's. It's like. It's a game of cat and mouse in the first, like, third. And then it's like a tangled mess of like two people who know something about the other and could use it against them. And then it tries to turn. Yeah. And then it tries to turn back into a cat and mouse game at the end. But it doesn't really fit that well as that anymore. [01:50:12] Speaker A: Well, it also doesn't help that I think. So I guess the big question that I would have for both of you is since this is an adaptation and clearly in the original film, the. The murder of the partner happens. And then of course, that leads to various reason. Do you really think that they need the death of the partner to make the dynamic interesting later on? Because clearly with the film it has this energy that without the accidental death, there really isn't anything that would make it that much more interesting with the dynamic. [01:50:42] Speaker B: Right. [01:50:43] Speaker A: Williams. What? In my head, I was like, I don't really know. But at the same time, when that happens, the whole dynamic of like, did Pacino mean to shoot him or not? By the time that question is asked, we have five minutes left in the movie. Yeah, I know what the answer is, is that it wasn't intentional, but he's so sleep deprived at this point, he can't be confident in his answer. [01:51:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:51:07] Speaker C: And I almost wonder if, like that. That him killing his partner shouldn't have been put put off till later in the movie to where that the sleep deprivation and his confusion about how his relationship with the killer is all weighing on his brain. And at that point he's already kind of become a different person. And then the death of his partner happens and it's like, did I mean to do that? Like, you know, when it happens so early in the movie, it really kind of feels like they're trying to make something out of nothing. [01:51:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:41] Speaker C: You know? Yeah. It's also like, it's. I think it's also an issue that Martin Donovan's character is so like cartoonishly. [01:51:49] Speaker A: Oh, the traitorous or whatever. The reveal of. Listen, I have to cut a deal scene. That scene. Right. Wally Pfister is back with Nolan in this. And honestly, there are certain shots, I think, if anything, the transition from memento in this, I feel like they definitely play with blacks and shadows. Shadows, like in this movie, a lot more than Memento. There is no shadowy Stuff in Memento. But there's just so many shots in here that remind me of basically, three years later when they do, like, the darker prison scenes and, like, Batman Begins or like, when. When his partner is telling him, hey, I'm actually gonna cut a deal with Internal Internal Affairs. That scene looks like the Carmine Falcone dinner scene a little bit. [01:52:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, there is some, like, color, [01:52:34] Speaker A: but it's like, yeah, Donovan just like, when they both show up, it is just like, you know, Pacino's walking in, doing finger guns at all times. And it's just like, well, you don't. You didn't see that. You didn't see that clue. Check your foreskin. And it's like, oh, my God, the clue is there. How did you know? And then Martin, like, Donovan's just going like, that's my guy. And then when the dinner happens, he's like, yeah, by the way, I'm gonna have to just rat. Like, I'm not gonna rat you out specifically. Specifically, but I have to talk about stuff. And then for, like, the next 10 minutes. Pacino is just such a. He is so mean to him. And it's like, yeah, he's like, hillary Swank, you're my new best friend. Let's listen. And, yeah, everything about this movie just has the energy of. It was sold to all of them. It's like, maybe for Williams, it feels like. Because I think the same year as this is one hour photo. Right. So we're getting two big, dramatic William swings from a man who's always wanted to really be in dramatic films after so many years. [01:53:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:53:36] Speaker A: A comedic God to so many. And then you have other actors who have won Oscars in the past and are basically, I think being sold this movie is like, this is an easy home run. Like, we're going to put all of you in this room together. You know, Chris, you. Chris, you've just got Memento. All get on this movie just like, it'll make money just from star power alone. And it's like watching this is like, yeah, I can see that. That has to be the reason why they're all here. Because I think Swank is underused. I think Chino's most interesting parts are at the very end, and it's a little too, little too late. And Williams just, like, there is inklings at moments of, like, I'm very curious about, like, his process and how he's playing this character, but then you listen to his dialogue, and he's basically just saying his. His intentions outright. The murder. Yeah, he's basically just. He's like, you can't catch me with any of this. And then later on, he basically goes, oh, they probably would have found me anyway. I was like, what the. [01:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:35] Speaker A: Why? It's really. [01:54:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it really takes the wind out of the mystery. Like, the beginning of the movie is so focused on like, oh, yeah, this young girl was killed. Like, we need to solve this crime. And then, okay, well, we solved it. Now let's solve the, you know, interpersonal issues of Al Pacino and did he mean to kill his partner or not? [01:54:57] Speaker A: Also, they add to Pacino like the whole. Because in the very beginning of the film, we get, I think probably one of the most Nolan shots of the film, which is like the. The blood on the. On, gosh. The sleeve. [01:55:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:12] Speaker A: And then he's like trying to get it out. And so in your head. Head, at least for me, it was like, oh, is this a Williams shot? And then, of course, later on you find out. No, it's. They add on to Pacino's story about how like the most famous person he's put away, he actually planted evidence. [01:55:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:55:27] Speaker A: And so this is being introduced like 10 minutes before the movie ends. [01:55:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:33] Speaker A: And it's being introduced to the lodge. The. The. The hostess of the lodge played by. Is it more. Yeah, yeah. It's just like when she shows up, it's just like when they have this moment, it's like, she's a good actress and he's a great actor. Why is she here? Why is this. [01:55:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Why is she the confidant? Like, what's. What's the deal? [01:55:56] Speaker A: It's not like I need him to sleep with her, but there is kind of an energy. [01:55:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:00] Speaker A: What is the vibe here? [01:56:02] Speaker B: Right. It's. It's funny going from following in Memento and like I, Like I said, I had not seen this movie for over a decade. Like starting it when it starts with him rubbing the sleeve and everything, I was like, okay, so Nolan did get to do a non linear story. I just immediately defaulted to that. And so I just assumed that that's what was going on. But no, that's not the case. [01:56:29] Speaker A: Yeah, there's just. Yeah. You can also tell, even though we've talked about how Nolan scripts can go either way if it's entirely written by him or just like in terms of adaptation. But like, there are just some lines here where it's just like when they're in the plane and they're like, I haven't seen a house in two hours and just like, this whole. Kind of. Like this whole banter back and forth where it's like, we're just good old chums, and it's like, yeah, this already doesn't feel that much like Nolan. [01:56:55] Speaker B: Right. [01:56:56] Speaker A: And like, if. [01:56:57] Speaker B: If he had just said, like, you know, it's. It's gonna be extremely cold for you, that would have been. That would have elevated everything. [01:57:05] Speaker C: You're a big guy. [01:57:06] Speaker A: I would. I would. I would even argue. One of the funnier moments, I think, in this movie, unintentionally, is when I think Hilary Swank discovers the nine millimeter that. [01:57:17] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:57:18] Speaker A: That Pacino has. And the way that she discovers that he still has it is that she [01:57:22] Speaker B: hugs him and she hugs him and touches. Yeah, that. [01:57:28] Speaker A: Yes. Such a weird shot. Very. It's so. It's like Hillary Swank got so close to grabbing, and she just grabs the gun hard. Yes. It's the most intense crab. [01:57:43] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. It's not discreet at all. Like, it's. I mean. Yeah. And my immediate thought is, like, oh, well, that. Why doesn't that break the movie? Why doesn't he. Why isn't he just like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, or anything? But it's. You can argue, like, well, he's sleep deprived. [01:58:00] Speaker A: Like, you know, and then before you have a random bar exchange with one of the cops where it goes, guess who's got two thumbs and loves blowjobs? This. It's like. Like, what is this? Yeah, I will clarify for everyone listening. I do like this movie. [01:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, it's solid. It's good. [01:58:20] Speaker A: And I do think that there is. [01:58:21] Speaker C: I think the more. The more we talk about it, the less I like it. [01:58:23] Speaker B: I can see. I can see your face. [01:58:25] Speaker A: I can see. [01:58:26] Speaker C: See. [01:58:26] Speaker A: It's like you're, like, slowly realizing, like, I just. It is a fascinating watch. And it's, again, one of the situations where, if this is your weakest Nolan film, understandably so in so many ways. But I think it's like, there are things here where, like, he clearly is trying with such a unique cast in such a unique location. Like, I feel like a lot of the shooting, like, the log scene as well as a lot of the locales, and it did remind me a little bit of just, like, almost like play testing for more location. Scotty, when he did, begins. [01:58:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:59:00] Speaker A: With that. And just like, you know. You know, the constant thing where Nolan. It doesn't feel like anything he's ever done in his career has been for nothing. And so I think it's very much so Just seeing can he play along with such a big probably amount of character and a lot of stardom and one film. And of course he can. And so much so that he can work with Christian Bale for four plus, like four films at least. And so it's. Yeah, I mean it is, it is kind of just fascinating to go from like following to just being momento, like momento and go into somnia. Be like, this is kind of what I expected in terms of like quality. Wasn't expecting. Wasn't expecting the story to not be. Be. Because when it, when it gets to the whole traumatic aspect of it about accidentally shooting his partner, it is kind of like it goes a different way that I was like, okay, like what, what. What is. Are we. Do we not care about the murder anymore? That's fine. I just want to know like what we doing. And then like when Robin Williams comes in, it's like now I have no clue what we're doing. I'm just like, yeah. [02:00:05] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [02:00:06] Speaker A: Because like when they get to like the interrogation scene and he's like, do you want to that 17 year old girl? And it's like, good. All right. That is. We're. This is not the scene to have. And it's got a great ass. This is not a. [02:00:19] Speaker C: Right, right, right. [02:00:21] Speaker A: What the is going on? [02:00:23] Speaker B: Yeah, like speaking of if I. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say if I hadn't known any better, like watching like watching this movie in the context of Nolan's entire career thus far, like if I didn't know any better, I would think like, oh, okay, well, he took this assignment so that he could do Batman like that. It just has that feel. Even though that's not the case. It just, it feels like like it like we said it for hire kind of job. [02:00:53] Speaker A: And I will say, just to clarify, because I was curious about this myself, this movie did make money. Like it was. [02:00:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:59] Speaker A: Like a $46 million budget and made about 120 worldwide. [02:01:04] Speaker C: It. [02:01:05] Speaker A: It has to be his biggest budget at this point. Like, it feels like it's like, like $6,000 to probably. What is it like 10. Is it even 10 million for memento [02:01:14] Speaker C: or Memento is like, yeah, it said like 6 to 8 million. This is 46 million. [02:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's like, I mean if another thing of just him trying to test himself to be like, now we're getting 40 extra million dollars for our picture. [02:01:29] Speaker B: Like, what are we doing? [02:01:31] Speaker A: And I think he succeeds by the end of Insomnia, while this is. Yeah. On the lower end of Nolan, for me, I do think it is kind of something where you can see again the inklings of that transition from Memento to Batman Begins, where it's like now, like, you could definitely see, like in Batman Begins, all the memento of it, but now the insomnia is the in between. Between you're like, okay, this makes sense as a jumping off point, I think even more, because now more of a studio holds now that he's done a film like, yes. Worked with, you know, big names, both in. Behind the camera, in front of the camera, and also just in establishing more the people he's worked with at this point. Even though Julian doesn't come back for Batman Begins, it is kind of having David Julian be in this and just be like, we got the guy that did Momento. He's doing it again. [02:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And like I said earlier, it really feels like the. The score is very reminiscent of Memento. And, like, I. I don't know if I'm saying that as a compliment or a detriment, but, I mean, it's good music, but yeah, it just. It goes. It goes toward making this movie, like, still not feel that distinct from, like, even movies of the era of the same ilk, the crime thrillers of the early 2000s. It just doesn't feel like there's enough unique in this movie to really stand out among Nolan's filmography. For sure. [02:02:57] Speaker C: Right. [02:02:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:02:59] Speaker C: Well, I got one more on the vein of goofy Pacino isms. We've talked a lot about his kind of weird scenes, performance wise. But I also think this movie is really weird for the number of, like, physically impossible things it has Pacino do, where it's like, clearly it's not Pacino, but his character. There's like all these bizarre stunts where he, like, he's in the killer's cabin and he drops down, like 10ft. Break his ankle. He would break his ankle, like, you know, but he's like, oh, yeah. He falls under the timber into the water and is struggling. It's like Al Pacino. This is, you know, almost 30 years ago. PACINO looks fucking old, you know, why is he doing all this stuff? [02:03:49] Speaker A: 60, 61, I think when they're shooting. [02:03:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:03:51] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [02:03:52] Speaker C: Running around. It's. It's like Denzel at the end of. At the end of highest to lowest, it's like, he's not doing that. [02:04:01] Speaker A: Definitely. It did. When it ended up being not. There's more to that finale, but to have the finale be one at one point, Pacino bum Rushing Robin Williams. Neither one of the men knowing how to fight each other. [02:04:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [02:04:19] Speaker A: Again, not. But Robin Williams winning that fight every time was always like, come on, There's. There's a fight in Pacino. I feel like you would always take. [02:04:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:04:28] Speaker A: But then again, the seat. [02:04:29] Speaker B: Preparation. [02:04:30] Speaker A: But, yeah, it was funny. It did have that energy of just like. Oh, yeah. At the end of the day, these are just two dudes in their 60s. Yeah. Like, doing a sloppy fist fight at one another. [02:04:41] Speaker B: Right. [02:04:41] Speaker A: Until they get guns. And then it's just kind of like a peekaboo. [02:04:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:04:46] Speaker A: And, I mean, I think there was even kind of conversations about not ending the way that it does, which, of course. [02:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:04:53] Speaker A: Ends with a shootout where Williams dies and. And, you know, Pacino gets hit and is able to basically tell Hillary Swank, don't let the job taint you or don't let this taint you. Just, like, be. Be. Be free. Be pure. Be yourself. Don't be like. [02:05:08] Speaker B: Which, again, earn this. [02:05:09] Speaker A: Earn it. I think it's like, don't like. Which could have hit harder had. You know, there have been more development there, but it's still, like, no. [02:05:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:05:18] Speaker A: Interest in that. And it's. I mean, it is. It is funny how I think out of all three of these films, when this movie ended, I did go, oh, that is how we're just gonna. That's. I mean, I guess. What else would there be? I don't know. What. [02:05:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:33] Speaker A: Like with Memento. Oh, yeah, Memento. It almost has that energy of like, yeah, this is the perfect way to end it. [02:05:37] Speaker B: But, like. [02:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, they're 20 and, like, with following, it's like, oh, that's a nice end little shot. You know, that's a fun time. And then, like, with Insomnia, it's just like. Yep, okay, that's. I guess. [02:05:49] Speaker C: Yeah, we're done. [02:05:49] Speaker A: I guess that's standing there sad. She watches her heroes die. [02:05:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And, like, both. Both following and Memento feel like. I mean, granted, because of the structure of both of those movies, like, the end scene feels like, oh, this is the final piece of the puzzle. This is a full picture that we're getting in here. It's like, yeah, it's a full picture, but it's not. It's not that sharp. It's. It's like. It's. It's not as finely drawn as. As, you know, the story and. And the characters of the other movies. [02:06:21] Speaker A: No, no, it's. [02:06:22] Speaker B: It's. [02:06:23] Speaker A: Again, I think it's a solid. I think I'm probably in the 3 out of 5 range for this I like it a lot. I like certain elements a lot but I think overall it's just kind of like like following. I think I'm in that like will I come back and revisit this in the next few years and it's like of other Nolan films, probably not. But I wouldn't be against re watching it just if I'm like a sure. I wonder if this has gotten any better, if my time has gone by. Memento rips Highly recommend Memento. Oh yeah, all three do so are we all on the same page that insomnias are at least Fair to Level [02:06:57] Speaker C: 3 or Andy, are you more yes for sure. No, I would say I like insomnia less, which is funny because I don't know why I didn't think of it when you asked at the beginning of the episode following your least favorite no, I was like oh yeah. [02:07:11] Speaker A: But yeah, that is the Rise of Nolan. Matt, thank you so much again for being part of another Rise of. [02:07:17] Speaker B: Thank you guys. [02:07:18] Speaker A: Don't worry if there's other curacawas down the pipe. We're not going to put you on Rise of. We'll put you. We'll put you back. [02:07:24] Speaker B: Nice. Yes, yes. [02:07:27] Speaker C: You've been booted from Kurosawa duty. Now you're now our little riser forever. [02:07:34] Speaker A: The Mail in terms of like right now with Obsessive Viewer, what is you know, would you like to plug and talk about? [02:07:41] Speaker B: Oh so yes, so I do a podcast, the Obsessive Viewer. Basically every episode is two reviews of new or recent release movies. I don't know what I like. I'm going to be doing the Odyssey at some point this month. But yeah, I don't know what's all in the pipeline. Recently I reviewed Disclosure Day and Office Romance on Netflix. So kind of that kind of brand. But yeah, it's fine. But anyway, yeah, that's the response was interesting. [02:08:15] Speaker A: I just thought it was. [02:08:19] Speaker B: You can find my stuff@ obsessive viewer.com I also have two other dormant but occasionally updated podcasts anthology where I talk about the the Twilight Zone as a first time viewer and other anthology shows of the sci fi variety. And also Tower Junkies where I talk about Stephen King and all things surrounding that just master storyteller. I also have a patreon patreon.com obsessive viewer where I post tons of stuff like immediate movie reviews, book reviews, Jesus comic book reviews. I've been doing some Batman stuff. I call it the Gotham Project. So yeah so there's. There's a lot of TV reviews. That's the thing I was thinking of. So there's a lot of stuff on my Patreon. So, yeah, so that's where you can find me if you are not tired of my voice. [02:09:12] Speaker A: Never. Never, Matt. Could never be. [02:09:14] Speaker B: Thank you. [02:09:15] Speaker A: I mean, honestly, we probably have. In my head, I can think of two other Nolan trilogies in the pipe. One Andy doesn't even know. [02:09:21] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [02:09:22] Speaker A: Talk about it later. But again, Matt, thank you so much. And thank you. [02:09:28] Speaker B: Thank you. [02:09:29] Speaker A: On this 4th of July. If you're listening on 4th of July with your family. Don't know why you're doing that, but very flattered. Tune in on July 18th when we talk about our next trilogy. One where we are not going too far away from Nolan and we're also not doing by ourselves. Andy, talk about our next trilogy. [02:09:47] Speaker C: Yeah. So the month of July is really all in service of the Odyssey. We opened the month talking about Nolan, where he came from, so that you can go into the Odyssey with a full understanding of the man himself. The other big giant piece of the Odyssey is Matt Damon as Odysseus. And who is Odysseus, but a man lost on a. On an epic journey, trying to get home in, some might say, in need of a savior, in need of salvation. And so, you know, Matt Damon's kind of made a career out of this. This is his biggest attempt at this archetype yet, but he's actually played, well, we'll say it, basically the same character three times before. A man lost on an epic journey, in need of salvation. And so we are doing our own curated trilogy, which. Which we've dubbed the Saving Matt Damon trilogy. It begins in the 90s with Saving Private Ryan, and then many, many years later, he becomes the damsel in distress once again in the Martian. And wait. Nope. Otherwise. [02:11:10] Speaker A: I did that too. [02:11:12] Speaker C: Yeah, he basically cameos. It's a glorified, glorious cameo in Interstellar, another Nolan film. And then, yeah, in. In the Martian, he's of course, stranded on Mars. So the man. The man needs help, and we're gonna save him. [02:11:31] Speaker A: But not by ourselves, right? [02:11:33] Speaker C: No. Oh, correct. Yes. We are joined by a first timer on the pod, Another. Another ifja colleague of ours, a frequent writer for Midwest Film Journal, and I believe, also a regular voice on the Medium Cool podcast, our good friend and colleague, Joe Shearer. [02:11:56] Speaker A: Joe Shearer, yes. About time we got him on the pod. And we're so excited. Yeah, I think when we. When Andy reminded me that Joe was on the next episode. We talked to him on our like, like, group chat about it and he was like, yeah, let's do it. Yeah, it's gonna be. It's gonna be a lot of fun because it's been a while since I've seen all three of these movies and I will see. [02:12:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:12:17] Speaker A: I mean, I've only seen Saving Private Orion once, but I. Oh, okay. But I love. [02:12:21] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [02:12:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:12:22] Speaker A: But I've. It's one of those, like, the first time I saw it finally seen in full. I've never kind of fully forgotten it hilariously did a double feature with that and Schindler's List, so truly was really going down. The six hour Spielberg, World War II, nice. [02:12:39] Speaker B: But that was a movie that I watched like every day after school in eighth grade, like ever, like clockwork, I would come home from school, put on the like, VHS and watch it. [02:12:49] Speaker A: So at least in our. At least in my, my family's household, they love. [02:12:54] Speaker B: We. [02:12:55] Speaker A: They watch Band of Brothers every year at certain points of the year and like, maybe for like Veterans Day or Maybe even for 4th of July just kind of have it on the background. [02:13:04] Speaker C: Right. [02:13:05] Speaker A: And so, like, I've seen Band of Brothers through many, many times and love that show. And I think for the longest time I was like, oh, that's right. Saving Private Ryan pretty much is the reason why Band of Brothers exists. [02:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:13:16] Speaker A: So I'm just kind of curious about, like, where it came from and just like seeing so many clips for so many years finally jumped into it and I was just like, this is a masterpiece. [02:13:24] Speaker C: But yeah. [02:13:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, Very excited now that we've talked about Nolan in this episode, to talk about Interstellar, because I seem to have hot takes for Interstellar that a lot of people either may have or may not depending. But like, it's a very. I have not seen that film in very, very long time. So I'm curious to rewatch. [02:13:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:13:43] Speaker A: And then especially with the project Hail Mary of It All, I'm very curious to go back to the Andy Weir adaptation that got everyone really pumped for, you know, more Andy Weir in the future that we didn't get until 2026. [02:13:55] Speaker C: Right. And I mean, I've seen all three of these films at least a few times, but. But never have I tried to explore them together through the lens of the Matt Damon of it all. Which is what really excites me about it, is like, okay, these are three very different uses of Matt Damon, all filling strangely kind of a similar role, but in very different capacities. And serving different purposes for the plot. [02:14:23] Speaker A: How much money is each movie's government willing to spend to save. [02:14:27] Speaker C: To save Matt Damon? [02:14:28] Speaker B: I love it. [02:14:31] Speaker A: And we'll find out with our Saving Matt Damon Trilogy on July 18th. And as always, I'm Logan Sowash. [02:14:38] Speaker C: And I'm Andy Carr. [02:14:39] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.