Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Howdy, folks. This is Andy of odd trilogies, and we're coming at you with a little new, different piece of content.
With our new website up, we are looking to kind of diversify the types of content we have here at odd trilogies. So today we've just got a review, and I'm here with my co host, Logan, of course, and our beloved guest, Adam Leclair. Hey, guys, how's it going to talk about our thoughts on the recently released Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes?
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so in case you didn't know, Adam was our guest on the Andy Serkis planet of the Apes trilogy episode. And so, you know, it was not required viewing. But of course, we doing that trilogy, it was hard not to want to go see it as soon as possible.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of the reason we did that trilogy when we did it.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So Adam and I saw it opening weekend in IMAX, and then you saw it a few days after. Did you see it in IMax as well?
[00:00:59] Speaker A: I saw it in Dolby.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You do love Dolby.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: I love Dolby.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Dolby's nice, but, yeah. Kingdom of the planet the Apes is stars Owen Teague, Freya Allen, Peter Macon, Kevin Durant, and is directed by Wes Ball, who is mainly known for Maze Runner, the Maze Runner trilogy, and also the mouse guard film that he is still trying his damnedest to get maze year.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: And he is attached to the Zelda.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Zelda film for illumination, I imagine, or.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Not live action, but Zelda film.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Or is it. Is it illumination and Sony? It's. It's a weird.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: It's some sort of weird, but yeah, but yeah.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: I mean, honestly, I'm excited for his Zelda after seeing Kingdom because, in all honesty, I think, you know, was great. Had a great time with it.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Kingdom is meant, as I understand it, to be the first in another trilogy.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: I think they're kind of envisioning at least two more trilogies, at least two more films. Okay. I'd heard that they were envisioning a nine film, kind of three trilogy arc with Caesar, this, and then something after it.
[00:02:08] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. No, I misunderstood. Yeah. No, that is what I've heard.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: Most likely at least two more films.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Including the Caesar films.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: The first series has been based off of Caesar, played by Andy Serkis. The second trilogy is probably mainly going to be about Noah, played by Owen Teague, who most people, it's probably their first time being introduced to him, but he's in, you know, it, chapter one and two. He was in the stand series that came out. He's done other stuff too, right? He's honestly, he's great as Noah in this film. I actually really like him a lot. And maybe the next trilogy would be about a gibbon named Jesus.
[00:02:46] Speaker C: Who's to say gibbons are name dropped in Kingdom of the planet.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: They are. They are.
[00:02:51] Speaker C: They are name dropped. So there's that.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a lesser ape.
[00:02:56] Speaker C: They are not a great ape.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: I will say that. The big thing that surprised at least Adam and I, and I think you probably are in the same boat is that going into this. A lot of the interviews with West Ball, we're talking about the fact that this is a distant sequel to the Circus trilogy. It's many generations. People have theorized that means at least 300 years after.
[00:03:14] Speaker C: Oh, they haven't theorized. They actually outright say the creators of the movie.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Okay, good.
[00:03:20] Speaker C: I forget if it was Wes or who, but it's like 200, 300 years after Caesar's death.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: That's fair.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: Which is an insanely long amount of time when you think about it.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: And so Wes talked about in his Reddit Ama being like, this is a distant sequel, but it's still a sequel and almost kind of feels like a distant prequel if it was to, like, the original 1968 film. But I did not expect this film to basically open on a coda to war. It's basically the fascinating thing.
[00:03:52] Speaker C: An epilogue and.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah, just an epilogue that really just, like, cements the fact that the circus era is somewhat dead in a way and that there's a new era coming.
[00:04:01] Speaker C: In, but in such a respectful, reverent way.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: Which is, again, before we get into the nitty gritty of it, I love this movie.
I.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: You're the biggest apes fan of the three of us.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:16] Speaker C: No, absolutely.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Both the movies and the animals, for sure.
[00:04:20] Speaker C: I mean, you want to know about bonobos. I can break it.
Oh, but that.
But, um, I really like this movie. I may even like it more than I like, like, we're the plan, the apes, but I need to watch both of them more before I really have an idea of that. But I know that I like this movie a lot, at least. And that being said, one of the things I think that it does so well is that it reveres the circus trilogy while also revering that original film.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:58] Speaker C: So much. And by original film, I mean the 1968. The Planet of the Apes.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: It reveres the new and the old in such a artistically striking and balanced way that makes for an aesthetically really cool movie.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I think if anything, my expectations going in, the lowest expectations were, it has to be better than beneath. If it's not, we live in a. We live in a hellscape, boring dystopia that we don't belong in.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: I wouldn't be on this podcast. No talking.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: You would have been locked up in your room since we saw kingdom. If it was that bad, I'd be.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Like, I'll talk to you about the circus films, but I'm going to beg after that, I'm done.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: No, but, like, I think unlike rise, which we talk about in our episode, I mean, has some boldness towards the end, but it's clearly just trying to do a lot of set dressing for better films down the line. Kingdom has a confidence out the gate where it's like, I don't really know what two and three look like, but I'm down compared to, like, how rise felt. Like it had to really build up a little bit to get to that.
[00:06:06] Speaker C: Good stuff to earn kind of.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, well, as with kingdom, it, like you said, it just gives a very beautiful, a very, you know, elegant kind of end to Caesar as we know it in the circus way, and then goes right into, this is our new era, and it doesn't feel like in a, you know, a classic rebooty way, it genuinely just feels like. No, like the world moves on. Caesar. Caesar is an important figure in ape culture, but he still is a mortal ape. He's gone. Yeah, we have. We have to go on to our next biblical character, which is Noah, the eagle ape, who is, I mean, again, like, I think one of the fascinating things this might be what starts kind of the not argument, but more of the conversation about the differences we kind of felt about the film. But, like, I was pretty impressed by kind of. There is a uniqueness to how they handle the effects in this compared to the circus film. In terms of just, like, the approach, there's enough of a difference where it didn't feel like they were forcing Weta to do the same thing again. Like, Westball even talked about, like, they shot the film differently. They used different lenses because apparently Weta was very big on, like, you need. Yeah, need, like, closer to fisheye lenses to really help with the effects in certain ways and kind of build it this way. And then west ball basically was like, we're gonna use, I believe, anamorphic. We're gonna shoot it differently. And, you know, Weta, I know you can handle this. And ultimately, it, like, it has a feel to it where it does.
Like, I don't think this film looks better than dawn in any way, but I do. I was impressed by the physicality.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: In a lot of ways, it kind of does, really?
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Okay. I mean, I'm not saying it's wrong in any way. I think it looks great.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: I think of the effects.
I think Don is shot better. Yes. I think Matt Reeves shoots Don so much better. But, I mean, there were so many moments where I was just going over to my girlfriend, who I was watching this with. It's long with you, and just being like, they look real.
Like, it was really hitting me the way that I had seen Dom the first time in theater. Because one of the characters, Noah's dad, you see the man ape's father in this.
He looks the least like a real chimpanzee. Out of all of the chimpanzee characters, he looks like an ancient homo habilis or something like an archaic human. He doesn't look like a chimpanzee. That being said, he looks real.
Yeah, he is fuzzier than everybody else. He's got a ton of hair. The way he moves and the way that his hair moves, I was like, jesus Christ. That is an actual thing that I'm looking at.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: If anything, there's a lot of characters like that.
[00:09:06] Speaker C: I mean, Noah's mom is also one of the better looking ones. I really appreciate that in these. This new movie, the chimp characters look more like chimps. Save Noah. Cause Noah is very intentionally supposed to look a bit like Caesar.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: I think there's more of Owen's face in the design.
[00:09:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And so many of the other chimps, they just let them look like actual chimpanzees.
And because of that, I don't know, I connected with it, like, oh, shit, this looks more like a planet of the apes.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: I think it's definitely was the physicality for me, because all the actors, again, like, it's. If anything, if this. If this doesn't. I mean, I would hope it leads to another, like the end of a trilogy.
[00:09:52] Speaker C: Oh, it will.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: If it doesn't lead to nine movies like they want, at least they succeed in making it feel like, you know, physicality. And visually, it can't look exactly like the circus films, but you have to make it believe that the gap between the circus films and the proposed, like, basically apes in human clothes, this feels like a natural in between of where they're going. And I think a lot of the physicality we are, but you still have to make it feel like there's a progression.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Like, a lot of that is shown in, like, Raqqa. I think Raqqa is, like, incredibly well designed. And Peter Macon's physicality is, like, holy shit. Like, his long arm, the way he walks, and the rock is character in the movie.
[00:10:36] Speaker A: Rock is the highlight for me.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: He is great. He is well done, and I want. He's part of best tape chat.
Rocket, Luca, all the best boys from the circus trilogy. But, Andy, how do you feel about the visuals? I feel like we haven't heard your take on it yet.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: About the visuals specifically.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: I mean, we talked about what we thought about it, so I want to.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: Get your take on it. I mean, I think it's a really good looking movie. I enjoyed watching it in, um, Dolby in the format that I did.
It's an incredibly clear, like, crisp movie, which I think, I mean, not that dawn and war aren't crisply rendered, but they're very textured. Like, very, you know, kind of naturalistic.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: And this feels so wet. Yeah. Dawn is like you're standing in the rain.
Kingdom is a lot more. I would almost describe it as fantastical. Yeah. The way the camera moves and the. The way the set pieces are shown off and that sort of thing.
And I liked. I liked that it was different. I was kind of worried that it was just gonna be, you know, the Matt Reeves aesthetic, but, like, zero calorie or something, you know, diet trying to do it. Yeah. And it really does feel more like it's kind of, you know, pushing towards its own thing.
I'll disagree and say I don't think it looks like, massively better than dawn or war, but let that chip in here. It does look distinct, and I appreciate that about it. And, yeah, also. Yeah. In addition to being the best character, Rocca is also just like Maurice.
Stunningly photoreal.
[00:12:24] Speaker C: He looks.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: And I've thought about it again since rise of the planet.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:32] Speaker C: Like, why does Maurice look so good?
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Why is it the orangutan?
[00:12:36] Speaker C: It ha. It has to do something with their hair. Right.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: I mean, their hair does look really.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: Real because you look at the chimps, and the chimps have hair more like, you know, humans. Like, but it's just over more of their body.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:53] Speaker C: And you are used to looking at that.
I think it's easier for orangutans because they've got these big billowing, you know, locks coming off of their body.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Speaker C: They're very long in their hair. Maybe that's easier to animate.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: Maybe so. I also think it's in the face. It's the face and maybe it's because they have. Their faces are darker.
[00:13:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: And very like, the texture of their skin is more like craggily, whereas chimpanzees are a lot more similar to human skin, at least.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: So there's a canny valley kind of going on.
[00:13:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: I think you can hide with rigid hands.
[00:13:35] Speaker A: It's almost like their face is made out of, like, sandpaper. You know, there's a ton of texture there, a ton of light, you know, reflecting in different directions, able to kind of distract your eyes.
[00:13:46] Speaker C: The color, like they. They've almost got the, like a deeper.
This color.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: Almost like your microphone.
[00:13:54] Speaker C: This microphone.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: It's a very similar.
[00:13:57] Speaker C: It's like it's verging on black, but not quite right.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: There's enough of an inhuman element still in them. And they. I mean, of the great apes still alive today, they're the ones that are the least related to us. So they are the most alien.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Yes. I think that's also a benefit of that.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: So animating them. And I do like that Rocca doesn't look like Maurice.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: No, no, no. Again.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: That's where the.
[00:14:23] Speaker C: That's another great.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: He's a totally different kind of.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: That's where, like, the evolutionary design, I think, really leads into, like, this. Because you see rock and you're like, I could see, like, 102 hundred years. Like, if they go.
[00:14:35] Speaker C: No. Okay. Okay.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: What what do we say? What are we saying?
[00:14:38] Speaker C: Okay, so are you saying that raka again, I'm about to get real nerdy.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: I know. Let me, let me hear what you were saying.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: So are you saying that, like, rocka looks like an evolved orangutan?
[00:14:49] Speaker B: No, I think it's. It's more just like, I think it's in terms of. Again, this is if it's. If the end goal in their mind is, like, in nine films, we kind of get to a point of, like, oh, they. You kind of have to believe that they get to a point where they wear clothes and they look like humans with orangutan, which I, which I do.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Believe that they do a lot with the designs, especially of, like, Noah's dad.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
Before you ape jumped on me, that's what I was basically trying to say. Like, with, like, Rocca, it's like, I was like, oh, I really like that. It's not Maurice. Like, I really like. There is some intention here in the design, in the performance. It feels very different in a way that I really enjoyed.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Okay. I almost went for you for some really nuanced bullshit. So you know how Maurice has got the big, big face?
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker C: He's got the big flames coming off. Yeah. So some orangutan males have those big growths coming off of their face called flames.
And not every adult orangutan has got those.
And Raka is one who doesn't, because Raka is implied to be older than Noah. He seems to be an older. Yeah, he is an older individual, but he doesn't have those flames. So he's a non flanged adult. I thought in my hubris that you were saying, oh, Rocca's design is just because he doesn't have those.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: I'm a dumbass. And I wasted a whole, like, five minutes of the podcast. I think it's trying to.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: No. Like, again, if you're. If you're going to stand out post circus, I think Rock is designed as a great example, and I think it's also proximus is a great example of that, too. I think. I mean, again, I love with Noah the fact that it's like, yes, he looks the closest. He is our Caesar surrogate, so he's.
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Made to look the most likely. I assume, that the movies are going to reveal that he is somehow descended or something.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: I would love it if not. I would love.
[00:16:53] Speaker C: I would love.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: It feels like the obvious route. I would hope.
[00:16:57] Speaker C: I would hope he was. He isn't. But he also has, like, you know how Caesar had that birthmark?
[00:17:03] Speaker B: He does. Yeah, that's true.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: And there's a bit of a patch on Noah's chest that is kind of lighter.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, maybe.
[00:17:12] Speaker C: I hope they abandon that. If they have that idea, I hope they abandon it. Just again, I'm a big last Jedi fan, so I would prefer him to be nobody.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I.
I like the fact that Owens performances Noah. A lot of it has to. It very much feels like he's wearing the burden of having to follow up circus.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: But ultimately, by the end of the film, it very much feels like so fucking narratively is so good as well as, like, narratively as well as, like, you know, diegetically and non diegetically in search of, like, his character. You can see how much Owen has become Noah in terms of, like, how he feels about the character, because, like, I love Owen says, like, one of the biggest things that circus told him is that your development and your emotion, it's all in the shoulders. When you're an ape, you use that to show if you're very tense, you're very worried about where you are in this world. But if you're very relaxed and you're very tall, you have more purpose, you're more confident. And I think by the end of buying such good advice, buying kingdom, when you get to that finale where he has. Because, again, it's another thing we talked about when we left the theaters. Like, Noah's not built like Caesar. I couldn't see Noah beat the shadow of Koba to save my life. Koba would kill him.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Oh, Kobo would tear Noah.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: So to have Noah be a clever ape and for other apes to use as almost like a derogatory term, but to show how intelligent he is, shows like, okay, so we're not getting Caesar again in a good way. We're getting an interesting different take on.
[00:18:48] Speaker C: Cause Caesar is really interesting in the sense that, yeah, he is so much smarter than everybody else.
But that isn't his greatest strength. No, his greatest strength is that he's just a good leader. I mean, again, he's very messiah in that sense, but, like, he's also a shit brick house. He tears people's asses up.
Caesar beats the fuck out of people again.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: Whereas Noah gets his ass handed to him a lot.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: I mean, again, I think it's because we. I think I was a little bit worried about the run time. I don't know how you feel about this, Andy, because we didn't see it together. But the fact that this is 30 minutes more than, like, pretty much the longest of the circus films, I wanted more. Which we might get.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Which we might get.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: We might get a three hour cut. The director's cut of the kingdom of the planet the apes hopefully will come out at some point. Because, like, when we hit. Because I was like, okay, the 30 minutes mark. We're getting into brave new world. Let's go into the big out, you know? And then from that point forward, it is. I will say it is kind of like, the ending, I think, is just, like, breakneck. Like, I was very shocked at how fast. When we finally get to like, oh, so this is the end, and we're still going, oh, shit. And again, I think it's. After watching war, it was like the opposite of what war was like. Whereas, like, war felt like it kind of bowed in the ground.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Then when it really got to the end, it got its stride back in the pacing laws with kingdom, it was just like, well, is there a bit of a break between. Oh, we're going to do that. No, we're doing this. Oh, we're going to do this. Like, it very much is like, okay. And again, it's not bad. It's just like, it very much was like, oh, okay. There's a lot of good stuff in kingdom that I really enjoyed, and I kind of wish there was a little bit more of which, hopefully, if they do a director's cut, I would like to get more of.
[00:20:36] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Because there's, like, there's more stuff with characters I would have loved to see more of. There is cool ideas that are touched upon.
[00:20:42] Speaker C: Love. Proximus.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Proximus is one character that needs more time because I think we were shocked. It just like, he makes an impression, but compared to, like, how much he's pushed in the trailer is kind of shocking the amount of screen time he gets overall.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: And especially with how Andy.
[00:21:00] Speaker C: Andy hates the movie.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: I have a good enough proxy. Look, I have resigned myself to the reality that you guys are going to eat up most of the. And that's totally fine because you guys are more on the same page about this.
I enjoyed this movie, but I do want to talk about, while we're talking about pacing, because it's a good segue into talking more about Proximus, our villain.
Yeah. I also felt like there were some strange timing and pacing choices in this movie. I mean, for one, it's two and a half hours. I personally really felt the length of it. I think probably more than you guys did.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: I mean, on a rewatch, I can imagine it feeling a little bit.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think a huge part of that is the fact that our villain does not show up until over halfway through the movie.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: And even once presidents there only shows.
[00:21:52] Speaker C: Up maybe, what, like 2025 minutes in.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:56] Speaker C: Like, when his raiders.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so, like, honestly, there's an argument to be made that, like, really, Noah's main antagonist in the movie is the gorilla. Like, troop leader.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: Like, yeah, the gorilla guy.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: I think it's Silva.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Gorilla who's chasing him the whole time and beating the shit out of it. Her?
[00:22:20] Speaker B: No, I thought Silva was the gorilla's name.
[00:22:23] Speaker C: Oh, they said her.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: No, no, it was like his.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: That was a silverback, man.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, no.
[00:22:29] Speaker C: Sexual dimorphism was not the charts with that thing. I saw his buttocks.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: He had a ray. He had a big electric stick. He was scary.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: But anyway. Yeah. Proximus himself shows up more than halfway into the movie, and it doesn't take very long before Noah and the human.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Character is it May Nova?
[00:22:55] Speaker C: May Nova.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: How much do we want to give away?
[00:22:59] Speaker A: It takes very little time when they. From when they first see Proximus to when they are like, all right, we're blowing all his shit up, and we know exactly how to do it.
And then we're on to, you know, that kind of climactic thing. And, yeah, Proximus, I felt, kind of got. Got shorted because I think what's his name?
Yeah, Kevin Durand gives a really cool, fun performance, dude.
[00:23:27] Speaker C: And there's so many moments.
[00:23:29] Speaker B: The lunch scene. And I'm sure.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: I'm sure a director's cut would highlight his performance a lot more. I would hope.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: I want him to read Vonnegut again.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: And, you know, I'm also plenty aware that, like, okay, we didn't see the body at the end. There's two more movies planned in this trilogy. We could see more.
[00:23:47] Speaker C: There were a few bodies we don't see in this.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a few. There's a few kind of teases for more.
So I'm. You know, we can.
That may be an issue that is remedied, I guess, but in the confines of these two and a half hours. Yeah, I kind of felt shorted on my interpersonal conflict.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Yeah, I can see. I will see it, because I think. I think while I was engaged, like, I was engaged the whole film, like, I'm having a great time emotionally. I wasn't fully engaged. I had a good time with everyone. But when Rocca, you know, takes a little dive, takes a little.
My brain. My brain wasn't like. Like, I was like, that's it. Come on.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Maybe there's a little bit more kind of strangely.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Speaker A: Abrupt or anticlimactic or something.
Yeah.
It was almost like, we haven't. I really loved Rocca already at that point, but I was like, it doesn't feel like these characters have spent enough time together to earn those, like, those lingering shots on their faces of, like, crying as he, like, goes down river. You know?
[00:25:01] Speaker B: I think the biggest issue in that regard, and I'm wondering if the director's kill will push more on, is I think Freya Allen's like, nova May. There's so many moments where it's just like, you're not going to tell me more about. You are not. You're just going to say, this shit's going to be said, and you just. It's. We're gonna cut away. And it's like, God damn it, there's so much here that could just be. We could spend 30 minutes really trying to dissect how the fuck this is where we are. Timeline wise.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Like your origin, because there's so much more. There's so much interesting stuff surrounding just her. Like, I think that's the big thing about Kingdom, and it's kind of its blessing and curse. There's so many phenomenal ideas and they're designed and they're developed just enough, I think, across the board that I think it's a great time, but I would love more of it.
[00:25:48] Speaker C: So hopefully sequel could do that for sure, because the.
What encapsulates all of those things, whether it be their successes or, you know, their shortcomings, Kingdom's ambiance is just.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:26:05] Speaker C: Dripping. It is finally a plan of the Apes movie that we've had. It's the first plan of the Apes movie since 1974 that we have. I won't mean since 2001, but screw that one.
It's the first one in a while that we've had that. It's like, actually a planet of apes.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
Like the planet has altered under this new rule. Kind of.
[00:26:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, there are characters, some who aren't of the more simian nature, who acknowledge that in this movie where they're characters who are like, yeah, no, the human's time has passed. But one thing I really enjoy, too is that because I'm a consuming fanboy who's just like, consume, consume, I guess.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Ape coomer.
[00:27:00] Speaker C: I'm an. I'm an ape coomer. If you will eat the banana, you will eat the banana.
And I ate the banana. And the reverence, again, I already said this partially in the episode about the Circus trilogy, but this movie's reverence for the original movie, the 1968 movie. Holy shit.
It is insane. It is wild in the production design, in the marketing, in, above all else, the music.
And I mean, Logan picked up on this, but I mean, so many other people who I was with, who I haven't subjected the classic apes movies on, they didn't get it. I mean, there are. So when you look at war and dawn, there's inspirations.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:01] Speaker C: In the score from that original movie in Kingdom, there are actual rips, basically, from lifted motifs. Yeah, exactly. The motifs are taken straight out, like in the scene where. And it's in the trailer. So I don't really feel bad just spelling it out. When the apes are hunting the humans.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: They pull out the iconic human hunt music and update it from that original movie because that is one of the most famous scenes from that original.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I wonder, I mean, has to be that, like, the motivation behind that, the increase in, you know, pulling things from the original is showing that we're kind of bridging that gap exactly back towards. Toward.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: What we saw.
[00:28:57] Speaker C: And the movie does it in so many ways, too.
I don't know how spoilery are we getting on this?
[00:29:07] Speaker B: I mean, again, leave, leave, leave, leave.
[00:29:09] Speaker C: I can shut up and we can.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Talk about vibes we have very closely skirted into.
How about we say, from this point on, let's do a little spoilers and then we can.
[00:29:23] Speaker C: We can kind of spoil a spoiler alert right here. So if you're listening and you don't want spoilers that are more blatant than.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: We'Ve already dropped, go watch the movie and then come back.
[00:29:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: So 54321.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: So there are actual references that are just flat out plot points.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:44] Speaker C: So you know the point where they find the human doll? This is mama.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:50] Speaker C: That is literally from the original plan.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: The apes.
[00:29:53] Speaker C: Doctor Zaeus is holding a human doll that makes that exact sound bite, like, the exact same sound bites as his mama.
And it's a huge thing. Cause it's like, why would a human make a doll that talks? What if they can talk?
There's that. The scarecrows, like the crucifix looking.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: So when, um, Noah Rocca and, uh, may are going cross or getting close to the bridge, you see all those weird, like, x shaped.
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:28] Speaker C: Cross things. It's from the original. They look pretty much exactly like the ones.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And then there's a nod in that and war with how the apes are kind of, like, crucified. Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:37] Speaker C: Just on that, which is an evolution of that, which is fascinating to me.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: With that and what shows to just kind of phenomenal, because, again, these are Easter eggs and these are not the original that I think in any other franchise they would be. You know, they would put way too much mustard on these, where it's just like, you roll your eyes and be like, I fucking get it. What's so great about the mama reference is the fact that, like, that is at the time when you're watching the first film for the first time, that.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: Is a no moment.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Yeah. That is considered to be the big moment in the film until the Statue of Liberty shows up and it's like, okay, there it is. So when that doll shows up and it happens, it's a good chance, like, you can get away with that Easter egg, because there's a good chance. A lot of people who even own statue don't know. They don't know it because it's like. Yeah, because both Adam and I are like. It sounds. It's the same fucking voice. It's also the same reaction. Like, of course, it's like when they see it. And.
And also the four Wayne reference with.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: With the Fort Wayne name drop.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Because that's where Charlton Heston's character is from.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: He's from Fort Wayne, which is.
[00:31:38] Speaker B: It's. It's. It's one of those things where it's like they are so blunt and obvious about him, but they do it with such a love that it's like it gets away with the member berry shit really well. And it works well with the story.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: Well, because it means something.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker C: And I'd say the references in this one mean something more than, like, the.
The otherwise forced references that you have a lot of. And rise. The plant lamps.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah, save.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: Take your stinking paws off me. You dance. No, that's. That's.
I won't argue that. That. That reuse of the line. Yes.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: That's the only line that I think. Yeah, this really works.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it works really well. But I mean, like, oh, there's the Icarus forcibly thrown in there. Like, there's the.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: The.
[00:32:30] Speaker C: The astronauts that are going up into space or, oh, the Statue of Liberty. It's like. Yeah, it's pretty.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: You really wanted. What you're saying is you wanted William H. Macy to say, don't be so touchy proximus.
You wanted like a.
[00:32:44] Speaker C: We were all slaves one way or another. Watch conquest of the Planet of the Apes if you want to.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: But speaking of characters that I feel like have really interesting starts but not really much finishes to. It is William H. Macy's character I like. But I will say.
I mean, yeah, but I will say it is fascinating to think if, since they are completely.
It is the fourth film to a degree, to watch may, like, purposely kill another human versus how Caesar accidentally kills winter in war really shows the dichotomy of, like, how each side is willing to sacrifice the accidental sacrifice versus, like, the purpose. I love how.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Although there are plenty of apes willing to kill apes in this.
[00:33:29] Speaker C: No.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Yeah, but I'm talking, like, lead. Lead character wise. Like, it's like. It's fascinating because, like.
[00:33:34] Speaker C: Cause Noah and his friends are just petrified when they're watching.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:39] Speaker C: They actually adhere to the law of, like, you know, ape. No, kill ape or all that, but eagle. And then they just see that shit and they're like, holy shit.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:51] Speaker C: How do we stop this? They're petrified.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: I also think the Silva. The Silva death. That whole kind of interaction where Noah cleverly gets around the pipes. Yeah, that's, I think, the best.
[00:34:04] Speaker C: He doesn't defeat this gorilla who could rip him in half.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: But that's. It's pretty fucking grim, though, how he just lets him drown. That's some war shit.
[00:34:14] Speaker C: A little bit hard again.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: And that's, I think, also where the. The effects shine in that scene as well.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Yeah, the water effects and the wet monkey effects. Wet monkey effects were really great.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Cause again, like, a big thing about how rise, I think, aged poorly is because of just how much more fully cg moments there are in rise. And then, like, with kingdom, it has fully cg moments, too. But they look so good. Well, they're time and effort and in the sets, but, like. Like, the whole Noah Silva thing is like, they didn't make a set of him sliding through those.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: I'm sure they did film them running.
[00:34:50] Speaker C: They have flooded a water treatment plan.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: I would fucking love that.
But no, yeah. It's just. It is kind of, like, as a start for a new trilogy that could ultimately lead to a seven, eight and nine, but, like, arguably, for a new trilogy, it's like, kingdom could be so much worse. Like, in the fact that as good as it is, I'm just happy about that.
[00:35:12] Speaker A: I could have a lot worse complaints than feeling like, yeah, walking away from this movie and feeling like, yeah, I'm on board for another trilogy. You know, like, maybe I didn't get all the, you know, development or exploration that I wanted in this movie, but I came out of it being like, I'm down for whatever's next. Like, I want to see more of this.
[00:35:38] Speaker B: That is the biggest question. How do you dawn this? How do you do? Like, what is. How. What is. What is their take gonna be of, like. Because now, like, they had to basically just be better than rise and they did it.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: I just had to get people on board with, yeah, well, you've got.
[00:35:51] Speaker C: You've got a hell of a setup.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: You do. You honestly do.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: And I think it feels like dawn in that way. I mean, rise sets a hell of a setup.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:06] Speaker C: You can go anywhere. After rise of the planet and after kingdom of the plan apes, you can go anywhere again. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Again, you shouldn't be listening right now.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Probably by now we're in spoiler zone.
[00:36:21] Speaker C: But that being said, spoiler alert.
After kingdom, I mean, you've got a kingdom that has collapsed in on itself. There are seemingly tons, God knows how many apes that were part of Proximus's kingdom.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
You also.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: How to mention the probably myriad different factions of apes out there.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: Well, you also.
[00:36:47] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. In clans and stuff like that. I mean, like, how. How does Noah move on? Does he reestablish it in a new way? Does he. He says that he's learned a lot. Does he change how his father ran.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: The clan and all this set up to be? He could very well be a very fascinating spiritual successor to Caesar in his position as kind of a revolutionary in his current story.
[00:37:15] Speaker B: I do think one of the big things will be for him is constantly thinking about, you know, rock, his interpretation of Caesar. I think a big thing about this trilogy to be more interesting is to have more people that have twisted and turned Caesar in unique ways from the start.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: They.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: From.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: They've. They've established it.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:33] Speaker C: Like, Proxima Caesar is literally the next Caesar. He's a false prophet. It's like we're opening up, banging into this.
We keep just, you know, being shown how Proximus is a false prophet and he's twisting the words of legacy. I mean, it's.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: Do you guys think he'll continue to be and the antagonist or do you think he's done?
[00:38:02] Speaker C: I would love for him to come back if you could make it not maybe forced.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: I mean, he did get absolutely fucked up, but I thought it was a choice to not, you know, to watch him fall all the way and then we don't.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: I mean, I love.
[00:38:21] Speaker C: Same with Rocca, same with rock, with.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: Kind of, you know, how sparing they were with him in this movie. I was kind of like, surely there's in my.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: In my head.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: I hope so, if they can do it right.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: I really love the fact that the, the basically the epilogue of war reintroduces. We didn't even talk about this in the fucking two plus hours. We talked about the circus films. But the window where that shows the window there. And then when it comes, then when we get to Proximus, is that window becomes an unsettling feeling because it's like now we've seen someone taint and turn.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: The word to attack.
[00:38:58] Speaker C: But not everybody.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: Not everybody.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: But I like it.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: No.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Gives it to Noah and Noah gives it to.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: But I love the fact that, like, the end, at least in my interpretation, the fact that the last shots we get are may looking up in hope for humans. And then you see Noah looking up almost in worry, worrying about the fact that he has now seen a world that he can't let go. He is now seen beyond his own place. He is seen in the stars, possibly Saturn or Jupiter. What was it again? It was totally. Yeah. And so it's like, he is now, like, how could I go back to just being eagle sun after all the shit I've done? And I would love the idea that, like, in sequels, if we do different antagonists, I would love you using the window as a way to be like, are you really friend or foe? Like, are you really following Caesar's words? Are you using that to taint it in your own way? Like, proximus kind of did.
[00:39:53] Speaker C: I would love.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: And I would love to see more Caesar esque, you know? You know, more proximus esque, you know, interpretations. Give Caesars words.
[00:40:03] Speaker C: Give me more Caesar. Radicals.
[00:40:05] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:40:06] Speaker C: Like, yeah.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Just different bastardization.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: One of the things I would.
[00:40:11] Speaker C: Legacy being tainted.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: I know it would be hard. I kind of. Maybe it wouldn't be fucking hard to do, but I would like a gorilla villain. I'd like an antagonist that is full blown a gorilla because that's one of the. One of the things I liked in battle that I remember is the gorilla dude.
[00:40:25] Speaker C: General Ursus is the best part of.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: I agree, and I want more.
[00:40:29] Speaker C: Aldo. Aldo's dumbass. Beneath the plan of the apes.
[00:40:32] Speaker B: Oh, that's right. That's right.
[00:40:34] Speaker C: The iconic general Ursus. He's got the huge headrest.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: That's right. Yes.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: I see your gorilla villain suggestion, and I raise you a gibbon villain.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: Oh, gibbons. Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker C: That would be so unique. Or baboon or something.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: It's a given.
[00:40:50] Speaker C: It's a given which they aren't apes. I mean, baboons aren't apes, but.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: No, I like. I just like the idea gibbons are.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: Kind of apes, so they're primates.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Because again, if, like, if you.
[00:41:02] Speaker C: If you like, they're lesser apes. If they, like, in the same.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: If they approach kingdom in a way where it's like, yes, this is technically number four, but we want people to also not be afraid to just jump in on this one. I love the idea of using Caesar's funeral as a way to reintroduce the window and then again, just being like, you see the window again. And even if you don't know what that window means, because you haven't seen the trilogy, there has got to be some uneasiness in a new audience being like, he's got the same. So, like, he has to know caesars, but, like, that doesn't feel, like, the same as, like, what we saw earlier. And it's like, I really would love more window perversion, perverting that symbol in a way where it's like, how dare you wear that symbol like a Harry Potter, like Noah.
[00:41:45] Speaker C: And I heard that from the audience. I heard that from the audience. I mean, when Proximus's army is like, pillaging the Eagle clan and. Yeah, you've got the gorilla say for Caesar.
[00:42:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:02] Speaker C: I heard multiple people around me be like, what? Huh? What? No. Like, they're like, no, this isn't Caesar. No, no, fuck you. It's like, this is. This is against what.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: I'm also curious to see if. If Wes is involved in the other two films as director or if they're. He's gonna be producing as well, helping with writing, and maybe because of the Zelda film, because, again, if they're going to follow the same time frame as the circus films, there's probably going to be a three year gap between each film and this trilogy. And so it's like, I'm just curious to see if they. If they bring in a new guy. What, visual stuff? Because we've seen the difference in visual style from. Why.
[00:42:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Will we see it evolve similarly?
[00:42:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And, I mean, I'm excited. I think it's just, in short, Kingdom has a lot of potential for a trilogy that is. Could be as good as the circus trilogy, but we'd have to wait and see. As of right now, it's a really, I think, a strong, flawed but strong start that I can't honestly wait to see again. Like, I think it's gonna be a lot of fun to rewatch. And I honestly think that, like, there's a lot of great actors in it that I hope, you know, even if it's the last time, I would like to see more of the characters we got. And, yeah, if I can't have. If I can only have Rocca or Proximus come back to the next one. I don't give a fuck about proximus. Give me Rocca. Like, if that. If it's that the two, like, I. I would take another villain that's Caesar esque, and then. But, like, have Rocca just be like, this is not the way. Like, I just want.
[00:43:27] Speaker C: Give me an orangutan villain.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: I was thinking that too. Like, that's. That's something where it's like.
[00:43:31] Speaker A: I mean, if we're talking about perversions, I mean, the most kind of wholesome characters in these movies are orangutans.
[00:43:37] Speaker C: Yeah. To get an evil one, the least background characters.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: I know.
[00:43:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: Give me Bryan Cranston. As an orangutan villain.
[00:43:46] Speaker C: Say his words.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: It's just king.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: From. Or scar king from.
But yeah, all around. A very solid, promising start to a new saga.
You boys both rated at four out of five?
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm an eight out of ten. I like war a bit more, but I think kingdom, I'm excited to, like, give it another rewind.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: I can't say which one I like more.
Yeah, I've only seen war twice, and I've seen this once. And I'll probably see kingdom again in theaters before it's out because. Yeah, I'm a nerd like that.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: I mean, I would. I genuinely. Cause after we literally talked about in our free calls about Rebel Moon, where it's like, I don't give a fuck about no director's cut on this bullshit.
[00:44:35] Speaker C: Fuck off.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: But, like, having. Having, like, something with, like, kingdom where it's like, oh, this is really good, but I wish there was more. And then westball being like, what if there was? It's like, oh, fuck. Okay, fine. I'm down. If there's a three hour cut of this fucking movie that's long, but I'll watch it. I want to see it. Like, don't fucking tease. I also want to see. Just to quickly bring it up, the gray pajama cut. The.
I was actually, when we were watching in theaters, I was like, God, I cannot wait to see what this looks like in the gray pajamas.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: Are they releasing a whole in?
[00:45:05] Speaker B: Apparently, on the home release, they are.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Going to release the entire film in great pajama without.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Gosh, I want to see how. Because, again, like, there's the whole overgrown, like, climb to get the eagle egg. Clearly mainly CGI. So I'm curious to see how they show, like, how they implemented.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that'll be interesting.
[00:45:23] Speaker B: It'll be interesting. I'd like to see.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Cool.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: But, yeah. And you gave it a three and a half.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: Yeah, three and a half. I liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Those are our thoughts. We'll do more of these. These kind of podcasty reviews of movies as they come out. We're not gonna try and do every movie or whatever, but, you know. And we won't always have Adam as a guest. What?
In fact, sometimes. Sometimes Logan and I might do. Might do solo reviews or solo reactions. We're just kind of trying out some other. Other things we can do with the website and that sort of thing.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Really just, you know, broaden the palette a little bit on there. And we're excited the website's out. So we thought we might try a few things.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: Yeah, please. If you haven't, check out the the circus planet of the Apes trilogy episode. And yeah, our next one is Chris Pratt's animated IP dynasty. Yep, it'll be out June 1.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: Yes, indeed. 20 fourteen's Lego movie 2023 is the Super Mario Bros. Movie, and this year's the Garfield movie. He gets bigger. La saga lasagna. Lasaga.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Thanks again, Adam, for joining us.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you.
[00:46:33] Speaker C: Thanks, guys.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:46:34] Speaker C: Always happy to be here in my own home.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: I was wondering why you're. Why you were staring at me like I made you do this.
[00:46:43] Speaker C: Because I live with you.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: You do. Andy gets to leave.
[00:46:47] Speaker C: Andy gets to break out of whatever's going on around here.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: All right. Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
