Episode 115: Robert Zemeckis' CGI Trilogy

[00:00:19] Speaker A: 3, 2, 1. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Are you shitting me? Oh, God. We get. We had one cold open on our previous episode. No, Logan's creative juices are flowing. [00:00:36] Speaker A: No, these are both Christmas themed trilogies in December. I mean, we got this in Silent Night, so I thought, it's true. They're both Santa related in some capacity. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, you committed through two hoes. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Well, it's different when you're looking right at me being like, what the fuck is this gonna be? So it's worthwhile enough. That was worthwhile enough just to have you go, are you fucking kidding me? Well, yeah. Ho ho, ho, everyone. Welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. [00:01:08] Speaker B: I'm Logan, so Wash. And I'm Andy Carr. [00:01:09] Speaker A: And not Odd Trilogies. We take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, thematic elements, or just numerical order, and we discuss the good, the bad and the weird surrounding each film. And we got it. Like I said, we got two Christmas trilogies lined up for the Christmas season, so what better way? [00:01:26] Speaker B: We got it. [00:01:26] Speaker A: We got it. We never ever let it cool. And so the only way we could really get into the spirit of things is, of course, me to flop on my ho ho hoes and talk about our first trilogy of the month, our penultimate trilogy of the year. A trilogy that feels like a no brainer just with how we usually talk the movies we talk about in the oddities surrounding the film, especially with how these films are shot. So. And I decided just because I try not to pack too much of one thing for Andy in terms of like, unless we have to, like, we. If it was our first few years, like where I was like, we're gonna do Christmas, Christmas Christmas film. I like giving Andy a little wiggle room. And I thought this trilogy maybe could give him a little wiggle room. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Beowulf is my wiggle room middle film. [00:02:17] Speaker A: But our penultimate trilogy for the year is our first Christmas trilogy, which is the Robert Zemeckis CGI trilogy, which is 2004's The Polar Express, 2007's Beowulf, Andy's favorite Christmas film, and 2009's A Christmas Carol. [00:02:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:36] Speaker A: What Delightful. Delightful all around. A reminder of how far we've come technologically. [00:02:43] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:02:44] Speaker A: In many ways. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Conceptually, politically, religiously, everywhere. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Polar Express makes you really think of the geopolitics of that era. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:54] Speaker A: When you're listening to the Hot Cocoa Song. But yeah. In case you don't know or it's been a while for you to remember, we really haven't talked about Much about Robert Zemeckis on the pod, excluding maybe talking about him with Flight. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Yeah, Flight. [00:03:09] Speaker A: I know there's probably some people out there who are wondering why we've not done Back to the Future yet. But that would be a classic Robert Zemeckis trilogy. His most iconic trilogy, if anything. But the man has spent the majority of his career making some bangers, but also pretty much making it pretty clear that he is very much invested in technological advancements in specific ways. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah. His career. [00:03:36] Speaker A: He'll cast away Forrest Gump with the like, not deep fake, but the putting forest in historical footage. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Like that kind of advanced compositing and things like that. [00:03:49] Speaker A: I got a pee with jfk. And also Death becomes Her, I believe, also, which has, you know, Meryl Streep. Goldie, is it Goldie Hawn is in that. [00:03:59] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:00] Speaker A: And then Bruce Willis. That's a Zemeckis film. And that's very effects heavy. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:04:06] Speaker A: And of course, the fact that Back to The Future Part 2 led to a whole lawsuit with Crispin Glover over the fact that they were trying to make a man look like Crispin Glover without hiring Crispin Glover. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:18] Speaker A: But also the effects of, you know, like doubling someone in a scene. And he's been very much. Since he's been able to get the ability to do these kind of crazier effects, he's been always wanting to get more and more advanced to the point where we're now talking about the first film in our trilogy, which is, I guess, the first time it is what. I guess I considered a full CG film. Like, it's not anime, it's not a full. It's not a Pixar animated film. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it was motion actors. Was it the first fully motion capture film? I think that might be the qualifier. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Because I think Guinness, like two years after this film came out, said it was like, qualified it as the first one. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:01] Speaker A: To do that. And I mean, Polar Express is a film that. I think going into that, you either know. Exactly. You probably. It's either you've seen that film a thousand times or you are like sick of it. And you hate the fact that people are still talking about how it's still as good as. People love it as it is now because it's. [00:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Polar Express was the first feature length, fully motion captured. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Because it is something where it's like. It's like with. It is a. It's a film that. I mean, it hits us when we are eight or nine years Old. I didn't see this in theaters, even though I probably would have been the prime age to do so. [00:05:41] Speaker B: No, if I did, I don't have a memory of seeing it. [00:05:43] Speaker A: This was a DVD rotation consistently during Christmas time because my parents enjoyed this movie. I think my mom still enjoys this movie. [00:05:53] Speaker B: I kind of associate this movie with like kind of free days at school or like school related functions or like. [00:06:02] Speaker A: You know, near the end of the year. [00:06:04] Speaker B: And yeah, I feel like people would, they would put it on in schools or like in. I was in like several after school programs growing up because my mom was a teacher. Yeah. So I would, you know, have need to hang out somewhere until she was done working and. Yeah, I just feel like it would get put on in those events because it's a completely inoffensive movie, you know, like. No, obviously it's. Is it rated G or pg? I don't know. I think it's pg, but it's like. I don't know, it's. It's exciting and cool, but also kid friendly. [00:06:39] Speaker A: It's probably PG because of thrilling images. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Because of the roller coaster sequences and the Hobo. [00:06:45] Speaker A: The Hobo, yes. [00:06:46] Speaker B: Mainly the Hobo. [00:06:47] Speaker A: 1 of 17 roles Tom Hanks has in this film. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah. But dark Tom Hanks. Yeah. This was. [00:06:53] Speaker A: So with this trilogy we wanted. I mean, you know, we have three. Chris, we have two Christmas classics in here with this and the Christmas Carol. Not particularly saying the adaptations per se, but the stories. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Right. I mean, Polar Express, iconic book and A Christmas Carol. Yes, an iconic story. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Iconic story that I would argue, which we'll talk about more with that film is probably if. If A Christmas Story is the most overplayed film on cable or. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Sorry, yeah, I said A Christmas Story, didn't I? [00:07:25] Speaker A: No, but. No. Yeah, but if A Christmas Story is the most overplayed Christmas film on cable, A Christmas Carol I would say is the most over adapted Christmas story. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:37] Speaker A: And it is. And we'll get to how I think that pertains to the downsides of that movie when we get to it. But yeah, the Bowler Express is this interesting thing where I think it's very similar to around the Time because it also was like Zathura was around that time where Zathura is based off of a book written by the guy that did Jumanji and they turned that into a film. And then of course Jumanji being a novel as well and just have this like children's books getting like these kind of. This brought into kind of the pulp culture space. With their film adaptations. And the Polar Express being, of course, this film where a train is going from, say, Middle America and going all the way to the North Pole in some ridiculous way. All the way to get to the North Pole. You have to do the North Pole. Santa elves. It's a situation where with each one of these films, it's a fun question in your head where you go in 2004, is there a possibility of being able to do this film? Not like this. Not with full motion. Yeah. [00:08:41] Speaker B: Whether you do it live action sets. [00:08:45] Speaker A: Still with cg, you have to do this with cg. Be insane to think how you do this movie without cgi. But it is curious because Zemeckis is in this kind of space where he finds the right time for Polar Express to come out because it becomes such a huge hit and it becomes like this. Oh, my God, you can do this now. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's. [00:09:05] Speaker A: I can't believe you could do this with a movie and, like, Tom Hanks. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:09] Speaker A: And all these children, they'll never age. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Yeah, but he was pretty. He's never. It's timeless. [00:09:17] Speaker A: It's a timeless film. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Ageless. But Zemeckis is pretty adamant that, like, you probably couldn't do this feasibly in live action. Like, I think that was one of his bones with the studio at the time was because they were like, let's just get this thing made, get your cast and we'll shoot it, you know, and he's like, no, it'll look like shit if we do this live action on, like, green screens and stuff, you know, which, like, you know. Good read of the technology of the time in that regard and considering where. [00:09:49] Speaker A: He will go later in his career. [00:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:52] Speaker A: Post A Christmas Carol. It is interesting to hear a Zemeckis say something like that. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Oh, Pinocchio. [00:10:00] Speaker B: We have talked about Zemeckis twice. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Zemeckis, Gray Star Studio, Tom Hanks, Zemeckis combination. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker A: But, yeah, it's interesting going into this being like. I understand. Because. Do you think this would have been. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Impossible in 2004 in live action? Yeah, I mean, it certainly would have been. I don't know. In some ways, I think it would have ended up closer to the book by necessity. Just because you couldn't have all the crazy, ludicrous set pieces that this has, which are not in the book. I mean, the book is very subdued. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Yes. Was this movie also in 3D at the time that it came out? Yeah. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. All three of these movies were like, 3D craze movies, which I think is part of their, like, I don't know, part of the. Part of the downside of them is that they were so married to that format. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I will say, I do think. I mean, me asking that question in my head, I. This is the only one in the three where I don't think of it as a 3D movie. It does not surprise me that it is, because there are moments. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah, Beowulf and Christmas Carol definitely lean more on those. Like, we got to hit the audience with whatever's on the screen. [00:11:12] Speaker A: Chris. Ms. Carol, for sure. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Like, yeah. I mean, Beowulf has some pretty showy moments of like. Oh, yeah. I remember when would pop out of the screen at me, but not really, because when he. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Like when he was naked and his ass cheeks hit nearly at the top of the screen, like, whoa. [00:11:28] Speaker B: I was thinking of the tip of the spear. But, yeah, no, that's. [00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But it. No, yeah, it's because I think hilariously, out of the three of these, even though probably 2004, that was the one where that was gonna hit the. That's funny too, because 2004 is right where it's still probably blue and red glasses. Like, it's. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I don't know when they stopped doing that, but 2009 was Avatar, and I don't remember having to wear red and blue. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Transition happened. [00:11:59] Speaker B: Christmas Carol might have had the. Just the dark shades. [00:12:03] Speaker A: They gave you Scrooge glasses. [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:06] Speaker A: You said to have a nose. [00:12:09] Speaker B: Nose required. [00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah, the Scrooge nose. [00:12:11] Speaker B: It's like the Begonia screenings. You have to have a large nose. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Either have to walk, or we'll give you one. You have to walk three miles on the long walk or you don't get to finish the film. And you have to have a shaved head. For Begonia. [00:12:22] Speaker B: What do you have to do for the special Beowulf screening? Slay sea monsters? [00:12:26] Speaker A: No, sit naked. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Oh, you have to be naked, but you have to, like, carefully hide yourself behind another object. [00:12:33] Speaker A: You have to. [00:12:34] Speaker B: You have to be perfectly framed. [00:12:36] Speaker A: No, I was gonna say you always have to make eye contact. You can't look at anyone else's genitals. If you look down even the cinema, you're out of the movie. [00:12:45] Speaker B: The Eyes up here screening. [00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Beowulf, that's gonna be wild to talk. [00:12:53] Speaker B: About. [00:12:56] Speaker A: But Polar Express is this kind of this interesting thing where, you know, I've probably seen the film, I have to say, like, 10 plus times, mainly because of cable showings. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I've probably seen at least a half dozen. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Like, this is like, this is a film that I feel like, if anything, during the Christmas time, this was a. My mom is doing laundry and it's on Freeform or ABC Family and just would throw it on. [00:13:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:27] Speaker A: And it's like Old School Express. No one in this house hates this movie really. So it's like, we'll just put it on. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Walk around and it's. [00:13:37] Speaker B: I mean to say this is probably like this podcast is probably the first time I have watched the film because I sought it out. Like, I sat down wanting to watch that. I'm not necessarily wanting to, but like with intent to. Rather than it just being put on by somebody else or whatever. [00:13:54] Speaker A: No. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:55] Speaker A: I've. It's one of those movies where when it came to Christmas time, like, it's at a point now and again, my. My relationship with Christmas is different than most people's because my busiest time is basically Halloween all the way through January. So, like Christmas, I'm experiencing Christmas from like mid November to mid January almost. And so like, you know, when I was growing up, it was like, you know, it was Christmas time. My parents would be like, all right, if we're watching movies, it's going to be one of the five. And if we're sitting down, it's like, you know, never watched Christmas Story, I think on our own volition because we'd be like, we would just put it on TV Christmas Day and then just have it running. But like, you know, Christmas vacation, the Rankin Bass animated stuff and whatnot. And I think a Polar Express at one point was when my siblings were at that age and I liked that movie and like, it just would be another rotation. [00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Polar Express. And yeah, I don't. I think I ran into somebody a few years back who just like loved that movie. Just absolutely unabashedly one of their favorite Christmas movies. And I'm like, that's awesome. But okay. Like, it's like because. Yeah, because to me it's like watching it now, I would probably say I think it help. It holds up in the right ways in. But not in every single way. Like, I think in terms of like the mad, the Christmas magic, the Christmas spirit energy, the Sylvester, the Alan Silvestri score. [00:15:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, really strong. Who. He also does Christmas Carol. Does he do Beowulf too? [00:15:32] Speaker A: I would assume he does Beowulf, probably. Especially with that. But. But another interesting aspect of these three films that is a prominent question that I would have watching them because I'm like, one of the other reasons why I would say, out of the three of these movies, even though it's not technically my favorite, is probably the most easily rewatchable. And that is the question of who is the. Who is the star kind of leading the charge in this fully motion capture. Because this is a move. These are movies where you can technically do them without huge casts. You can technically do them without. You don't have to have, like, Chris Pratt, Robert Downey Jr. You don't have to have, you know, Emma Stone in this. It's like you can basically have. If you have one actor, genuinely, if you have one actor who can really hold their own and even play multiple roles if need be. And it's an actor that everyone loves to an extent, you can basically just have him be the lead. And then everybody else is talented, but, like, doesn't sell tickets. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: And Polar Express, unsurprisingly, gets. Is the one that gets away with that the most. Because of Tom Hanks. Because Tom Hanks is the father of the boy. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:52] Speaker A: He is the older version of the boy who does all the narration in the beginning and the end. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:57] Speaker A: He's the conductor. He's the hobo, he's Santa. And he also was the motion capture double for a lot of the boy. Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker A: So Hanks was involved. [00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, he's all over this movie. [00:17:13] Speaker A: And there was, you know, kid actors that were involved in the lead. In the lead character role. The boy is credited as being played by Daryl Sabara, who was, you know, most known as Juni from the Spy Kids films. Also is known as Meghan Trainor's husband. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Because that's just true. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Yeah. True fact. True facts with Logan. So. [00:17:34] Speaker A: So he. I think he did some of the motion capture, but also, apparently actor Josh Hutcherson is also accredited to some of the additional photography in motion capture. And besides that, there's, like, I think one or two other names I kind of know off the top of my head that I saw in there. I think the. The biggest name past Tom Hanks is Steven Tyler. Because he plays a rock elf. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah. At the very end, they get the concert. Yeah, they do the little concert bit. Pretty much out of place. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Out of place. But all the prominent adults in the movie are pretty much played by Tom Hanks. [00:18:12] Speaker B: Yeah, just about. [00:18:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker A: So it's in. And Hanks, being the way that he is in his talent and how he knows how to be used and how him and Zemeckis have a strong relationship. [00:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:25] Speaker A: The man, I would say, out of everybody in this movie rarely misses. He is I think the most consistent part of this movie where the most iconic moments. Line wise, emotionally he is tied to those moments. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Like I think I was telling you when we were recording the Oz trilogy because around that time we were watching these movies and I just like I haven't seen this movie, I think in a solid few years. But I can still remember the first time I saw the trailer because that's the scene where he goes, well, you're coming. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:03] Speaker A: This is the Polar Express. Like every. The ink, like the, like the inflection, his hand movements, his acting in that scene. It's like that trailer was the perfect encapsulation of selling it. Yeah. And he is the best part about this movie, I would say. And arguably shows that when you don't have someone like this to really take the brunt of the movie as like the star. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker A: You start to like have. You know, they're Beowulf and Christmas Carol. Technically have that with both of them. Christmas Carol more so than bear. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Beowulf still had a lead. [00:19:45] Speaker B: Amazing man. [00:19:46] Speaker A: Yeah. But they used one specific actress in Beowulf to really. [00:19:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:19:52] Speaker A: In a way that is so hilarious now that actually seen them. Yeah. But Hanks really just brings that Christmas magic in a way where I feel like when most people think about how this film. Because most people who like this movie will say the same thing. Yeah. I know it probably doesn't look the best now. Which is really genuinely an understatement. [00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:14] Speaker A: It has some true jank. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Particularly facial animations. And it will just, I guess people movement in general. There's a lot of like arms that look strange. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And they get away with it in a sense because it's all pudgy, soft faced children. [00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:33] Speaker A: But it is still the dead eye. The thing that we now know is like when it comes to animation, it's the dead eye kind of effect. [00:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Where it's just like the eyes are the. Like the. The gateway to the soul. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:46] Speaker A: And they. You have to either like find a way to use that in the performance or you have to animate it in a way that really can convey and which. [00:20:53] Speaker B: And I do think that eye issue progressively gets better over the course of this trilogy. [00:20:59] Speaker A: It does. [00:21:00] Speaker B: It's not, you know, perfect. But I do think that they were paying attention to that and started to figure that. [00:21:07] Speaker A: I would say the best moment in Christmas Carol does pertain to how much that has evolved from this movie to that in terms of the Expression in the eyes and the face. But, yeah, I mean, I do think the movie is hilariously way longer than I remember it being. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's probably Flowers is kind of wild. Biggest beef with this movie, like, it's a short little picture book. Basically. Not much happens except that a kid gets taken to the North Pole and has his faith restored in magic. [00:21:40] Speaker A: If I'm correct, we spend about 90 minutes on the train and then I believe the final 30 is North Pole. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. [00:21:51] Speaker A: Maybe 45. 45. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:52] Speaker A: Maybe, if being generous. And half the movies there. [00:21:56] Speaker B: And I think that kind of bloating of the runtime, not specifically how long it is, but the way we get there kind of underscores my biggest problem with all three of these movies. In that maybe Polar Express most obviously, but also especially A Christmas Carol. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Zemeckis seems. I don't know if this is Zemeckis call or if this was a studio thing or what, but he seems to want to make these movies. Roller coaster rides in Polar Express, almost literally, because there's a scene that basically the train tracks turn into roller coaster tracks. [00:22:36] Speaker A: But yeah, and also the ice lake. [00:22:39] Speaker B: And the ice lake. But yeah, there's. These movies are just punctuated by all these sequences of, like, really intense kinetic movement. Particularly this and Christmas Carol where it's just like, you know, the source material is so well known and beloved that it's like. It is wild that you are doing this in this adaptation. Like in a Polar Express movie or in A Christmas Carol. Like, this feels. It does feel kind of like a byproduct of like, oh, these were 3D movies at a time when 3D was huge, or at least was in its last legs or whatever. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Then it's clearly like, if anything, we. [00:23:21] Speaker B: Gotta make it pop. [00:23:23] Speaker A: That could have been the driving force as to why he was constantly pushing for the motion capture angle, where it's like, yeah, this is not in the book. But he had these set pieces in mind. [00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:33] Speaker A: And those are the things you probably couldn't do in live action as you want it to be. And so he's. Because, again, I think one of the biggest popping 3D moments now that I'm thinking about it is probably when the train goes from the ice lake back on the tracks and is coming up the mountain right into the middle of the frame. And it's like, yeah, you've got that. It also is funny because the film basically is like, there's a little boy who's a little wary about Santa about whether he exists or not. He gets invited on the Polar Express. He's a bit of a doubter. He gets on the Polar Express. They do a hot cocoa song which is very catchy, very, very fun. Even though that is probably the. Very much like a. Oh, look, motion capture. [00:24:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:14] Speaker A: Is those scenes right there. But still fun. It becomes this funny thing where he meets a little girl. Little girl gets a cup of cocoa. Because there's this little poor boy that gets like. Was about to get left on the train. The hero helps him get on the train. He's in the very back of the train. The little girl goes to get the cocoa. Little girl loses her ticket. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:37] Speaker A: The boy admits that he tried to help get the ticket and he fucked up the little girl. The conductor takes the little girl to the back of the train. The little boy goes to get the talk to them because he finds said ticket. Because the ticket has this grand journey where the ticket gets pulled out of the train. The wolf pack blows it back into the air. This is the most, like, we couldn't do this in live action. That I think out of everything. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah. The. The shot. Yeah, the ticket shot is kind of the first of this type of shot that gets repeated over the course of this trilogy and this film. But it's kind of like Zemecka seems to be like, really into the. I was thinking of it while I was watching it as like the journey of the object. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Kind of shot where it's this long, elaborate tracking shot of, in this case, the golden ticket flying around in the wind. And it goes up and down the length of the train and it gets caught in a window and flutters. And then the kid in the background runs up to try and grab it and it flies away again. And then it goes into the woods and then it lands by a pack of wolves and the pack of wolves runs by and then it goes over a waterfall and gets eaten by a bird. All this shit. And the other two movies have similar shots too. They're not as elaborate or long, but that seems to be a huge. A major fixation of Zemeckis in his visual storytelling in these movies is like, oh, yeah, let's do these insane tracking shots of inanimate objects or of objects in motion or whatever. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Because I feel like with those two, the latter two films in this trilogy, the reason why it's not as flashy in some of those scenes, even though there are scenes like that, is because he has more to prove on the narrative side where he's like. He Can't. He has to worry about making sure people don't go, don't up these stories in this way. Well, Polar Express people are like, how. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Are you going to make, how are you making it? They're already. Yeah. How am I sitting down for a two hour Polar Express? [00:26:47] Speaker A: You're just like, oh, okay, this is how we're going to get today. Because it's like this hilarious. The hero boy goes to the back of the, the train. The conductor in the little girl, instead of coming through the inside of the train, goes above the train all the way to the front. [00:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker A: The boy goes all the way up, goes up on top of the trains and that's when he meets the hobo. [00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:07] Speaker A: Who is I think the most pudgy looking Tom Hanks out of all the pudgy looking Tom Hanks in this movies. Because it's like him. [00:27:13] Speaker B: Even though he's probably the skinniest character that Hanks plays in the film. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:17] Speaker B: But there's just like a strange softness to him. [00:27:21] Speaker A: And then they do a little sequence where they, they ski on top of the, the train. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:27] Speaker A: And then he gets thrown into the coals. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Then he meets the little girl. And then this is all happening, I think in the span of like 30 minutes. [00:27:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:35] Speaker A: It's just, it takes its time. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:38] Speaker A: Because there's almost this weird energy that the, the real like the, the threat is, oh my God, the conductor's gonna throw the little girl off the tree. Yeah. That is the, Is this the childlike feeling of like, oh, no, we fucked up. [00:27:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Adults are gonna ruin our lives. Yeah. [00:27:55] Speaker A: And then ultimately the conductor's like, what? Why are you here? And then they just come back. They just come back through the train back to that part. And that's what leads to, I think the ice, it leads to the ice lake and all that kind of stuff. And it leads to the, the, the caribou. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Caribou. [00:28:12] Speaker A: It's like all these little set pieces that are like very cute. And I think arguably kids will get, always will still get a kick out of it regardless of the era. You can see this. This definitely feels like babies will enjoy this to an extent. Little kids will probably love the shit out of it. And then the older you get, you're just kind of like this. A little off. [00:28:33] Speaker B: Yeah. It's kind of vapid. Despite wanting to be kind of sweet and heartwarming, which I'm not saying it doesn't succeed on any of that, but yeah, it is a little. [00:28:42] Speaker A: Which is the man who did Forest. [00:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:44] Speaker A: So that's the thing. This man could do schmaltz and get Oscars out of it. I feel like he is very much so keyed in on what I like a Christmas film. Most people are expecting. They're not expecting a Christmas film to make them really rethink this. All the consumerism of it all. It's like. No, it's like this is a film where it's about the big internal conflict of this child is, do I. Do I really. Can I really believe in Santa unless I see him? [00:29:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:14] Speaker A: And then, of course, the resolution is, is that he starts believing in Santa. And hilariously, when he starts believing in Santa without seeing him, that's when Santa first pops up. And Santa is like. The design of Santa is like this. The glow and the look and Hanks's acting. It's like you're looking at the Coca Cola Santa right out of an ad. [00:29:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Like this, the most classical, almost ethereal version of Santa. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:42] Speaker A: In that kind of like consumerist way. And. Yeah, it is kind of like, I think in a modern sense. I've never heard anyone say this, but it's what my brain goes to now if, like a modern example of like a lot of these scenes are like the. The dung beetle scene in the Jon Favreau Lion King. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Where it's like in the original Lion King, when Rafiki gets like the whiff of Simba's hair and he's like, simba's alive, the king's alive. It is literally, you see a breath of wind go into the air and then it just cuts like a normal movie to Rafiki getting a little whiff in the air because he's connected to the world. But Favreau's film, it has to be like, well, you have to. People are paying, what, $20? [00:30:24] Speaker B: Explain it. [00:30:25] Speaker A: Yeah. You have little pieces of hair get pulled into a dung beetle. Dung, like gets rolled into a roll of shit. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:32] Speaker A: And then now you're watching a 200 plus million dollar film, or nearly that of Disney, watching a roll, like a piece of shit, literal piece of shit, roll in the air and then get sucked in and whatnot. And then ultimately, five minutes later, Rafiki finally gets like a piece of shit. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:49] Speaker A: Simba's in it. It's like, at the time, it makes sense in 04, but it is one of those things are like, if you're watching a film now and they're doing that, you're like, everyone, the theaters going, come on, just fucking just. Yeah, get to it. Movies Are. To most people, movies are too long to. And it's like, this movie does have that. Hilariously. It is. It is, I think, genuinely too long. I think it's still good. I like this movie. I like this movie. And I would be like. I could see myself in the future being like, you know, showing this to kids. I'm really. Yeah. Polar Express is an easy film. Sure, it's cute. But I would also be like, if I'm showing this to kids nowadays and kids are like, why does this look weird? I'll be like, well, son, it's called time. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:35] Speaker A: Time doesn't. Time heals all wounds, but it does not heal special effects. State of the art effects from 2004 is what happens when you spend your entire film being like, the computers in 2003 will no doubt be able to run against the computers of 2024, 2034 and whatnot in the future. But it's still a fun time. I understand the nostalgic nostalgia surrounding the film and I have no doubt that the film. At one point, people have had avid debates about how the movie is still good, even though it looks extremely janky and pudgy and very soft in places. [00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Of the trilogy, I think this was like, the. The easiest watch for me personally, because I was just like it. Again, it is. I have seen this enough times that I'm just like, you can throw this on. And whether I'm engaging or not, you never lose track of where you are. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Which is, I guess, a benefit of a film that is just trying to be a roller coaster ride. [00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I totally see that. I might have actually had the opposite experience in that this was probably the hardest for me to sit through, just. Just because I think the familiarity of it. I've seen this one more than the other two. I've never been the biggest fan. Like, I've never. I don't hate the movie by any means, but, you know, I've always just been kind of like, oh, yeah, that's that, like, tech demo Christmas movie they made that doesn't look that great anymore, which is ultimately kind of how I feel about it. I don't think it's bad. It's like, moment to moment, it moves. I do think it kind of slows down in the last. When it gets to the North Pole, I'm like, checked out. But yeah, I think that's my biggest issue with it is that, like, a lot of the narrative and emotional underpinning feels like it's playing secondary to showing off this technology that we're using, and it's kind of like, okay, well. [00:33:32] Speaker A: And again, in terms of, like, when we talk about Christmas classics, too, it's hilarious because Christmas classics don't happen until about a decade after the film is out, usually where it's like, Elf is around. Elf is literally, I think, a year before this. And I don't think that film becomes a Christmas classic until what, a decade later? A little bit less. And then with Polar Express being, as, I think, as financially successful as it was, as well as, I think enough critically, people are like, yeah, I see the appeal to this. People enjoy this. And the audience has really enjoyed the movie that Zemeckis was able to basically go like, here, here's my pitch. Full motion capture people, I think would really be like, we can do this with stories we never thought we could do. [00:34:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:16] Speaker A: And he succeeded in showing a studio fucking. That works. All right, what do you want to do next? [00:34:22] Speaker B: And means Norse mythology. [00:34:25] Speaker A: Norse mythology. I mean, again, Zemeckis is the kind of guy that like. Of his films that he does with Image Movers Digital, which is his company that ultimately, I think, does a total of four films. I think every film they kind of had in production, in genuine production, there were five of them, and four out of the five of those movies got made. The fifth film being. I don't think they actually got full animation through, but they. I think they had gone through most of pre production. Which is Zemeckis's Yellow Submarine film. Yeah, he really wanted to make a full CG Yellow Submarine movie. Which is such a boomer thing. Yeah, such a fucking boomer thing in a way where it's like, you know what? It would have been very more. I would have been morbidly curious around that time if it had actually gone through now. Would have been Nightmare Fuel. There's a good chance. Yeah. I mean, you can look. [00:35:21] Speaker B: The original film is Nightmare Fuel, and. [00:35:24] Speaker A: You can look at the designs. There are actually. They have released what the designs were at that time, and it was. It was a big passion project for them. But the four films that I for Image Movers were, you know, the full Image Mover films were Polar Express, Beowulf, Yeah. Christmas Carol, and then Moms Need Mars Needs Moms. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Yeah, Right. [00:35:42] Speaker A: If you're surprised by that last film, don't be. No one saw it. I watched it out of curiosity once because I was like, I wonder if this is a film that deserves to be the end of Zamus's Run. And it does. It is. A film that deserves to be the end of that run because it really is the most cookie cutter. Like, yeah, we're. The. The appeal that Polar Express built up is pretty much already run out by the time this movie is out by Martin's mom's go. But before we got even to that point, we're taking all the. The high point from Polar Express. Is he going to keep making Christmas films with the CGI efforts at the time? No, he decides, like Andy said, he's going right into his next film, which is Norse mythology, particularly a classic Norse tale that I think by this point, out of all three of these films we're talking about today is probably the least adapted. [00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't name another adaptation. [00:36:47] Speaker A: I guess Polar Express. Yeah. Only has the one adaptation. But in terms of like the conversation and. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:53] Speaker A: I mean, it is iconic. [00:36:54] Speaker B: The average person doesn't know what Beowulf is. [00:36:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:58] Speaker B: I think the average person could tell. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Could they heard the name. [00:37:02] Speaker B: Pick Polar Express out of a lineup. [00:37:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Like it's. It is something that is like, oh, in the era where 300 is thriving, or at least people, people. There's these rumblings about like, you know, maybe you can do a sword and sandals epic, but hear me out. You don't have to do Ridley Scott or fucking Troy levels. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Of Gladiator. No big huge budget of sets, shooting on location. [00:37:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:30] Speaker A: What if it was all motion capture and it was all digital animation? I can only imagine that the, the green light, the fucking light bulb at his head being like, why not just do the. The classic Norse mythology tale. [00:37:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Of Beowulf, which is three or three years after Polar Express. It is, I would say, his most. Honestly, I would probably say out of the three of these movies is the most talented ensemble one of these movies has had. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Like most prestigious, like serious actors filling out the role. [00:38:08] Speaker A: Anthony Hopkins, Robin Wright, John Malkovich, Brendan Gleason. Brendan Gleeson. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Crispin Glover. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Crispin Glover. But the other two, I will wait because one of them is Ray Winstone, who, if you don't know off the top of your head, is a character actor who, if you've seen the Departed, he's one of the. He's Jack Nicholson's right hand man in the Departed. Isn't he? [00:38:33] Speaker B: Isn't he in a war movie? [00:38:36] Speaker A: He probably is. [00:38:37] Speaker B: I feel like I've seen him in a war movie, but I can't off the top of my head. [00:38:40] Speaker A: He is a Brit, right? He's not. [00:38:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Or maybe even Scottish. No, he's English. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Okay. He's an English actor who is an actor you've definitely seen. Seen before. Oh, he is. We have talked about him. He is in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. [00:38:57] Speaker B: That's right. He's the traitor. [00:38:59] Speaker A: He's the. He's the triple agent. [00:39:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Or. Yes, the triple agent. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Mac. He's a. He's a character actor who's been in a bunch of big budget films. He's in a bunch of small films. He is a talented actor through and through. I like Ray Winstone. [00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:15] Speaker A: And I really genuinely like his performance in this movie. He is. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I think he's. [00:39:21] Speaker A: He is. I. It is the benefit to him that I think they are not using his likeness for Beowulf. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Yes. I actually think this movie gets an advantage from that. I mean, obviously, you know, no offense to Ray Winston, but. But if Beowulf looked exactly like him, it would be a much sillier looking film. Yeah. But I think he gets the freedom to play around a little more, and the model doesn't have to, you know, be exact to him. Although it is interesting. Like, I don't know if this is necessarily a credit or a demerit, you know, a criticism to the film or if it's just an interesting observation about motion capture. But it's cool how you can still see his face come through just in his expressions in certain moments where it's like, yeah, this character model looks nothing like Ray Winstone, but when Ray Winstone does a Ray Winstone thing, you see it in Beowulf's face, and that's always cool to me. [00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, I think Beowulf does show that. That benefit of having fully CGI character models, because you can do something like that where it's like, you can have. You don't have to be distracted by the fact that Ray Winstone doesn't look like what most people would think if you describe Beowulf to them. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:43] Speaker A: What he looks like. [00:40:44] Speaker B: But conventional action hero. Yeah. [00:40:47] Speaker A: But it is funny to think that the film still has the opposite effect because everyone else looks just like. Excluding Glover, because Crispin Glover. Grendel. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Grendel, He's a monster. [00:40:59] Speaker A: He's an abs. Is just a. He's. He's a slop monster. Horrendous to look at. [00:41:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:08] Speaker A: It does a great job. Even though he is, like, constantly screaming, and that's the only thing that's, like. [00:41:13] Speaker B: Most of his performance. [00:41:14] Speaker A: And then he speaks. Does he speak actual Nordic or does he try to. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think it's Old English or Germanic or something. [00:41:25] Speaker A: Which is the most fucking classic Crispin Glover thing to do. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It was probably his idea. Like, I'm not saying these lines is just like, okay, as long as you keep screaming. [00:41:37] Speaker A: I'm just glad the lawsuit's been lifted and you're not mad at me anymore. Yeah. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Because. Yeah, it probably is old English or maybe Germanic, because Beowulf is actually. It's an Old English poem set in a Norse world. Like, it's not actually from Norse culture or Nordic people. It's an old English thing. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Andy threw me off last episode because he started reading the Oz books without. [00:42:04] Speaker B: I did not read Beowulf. I was wondering, because I thought about. [00:42:07] Speaker A: It, because Adam and I were watching Beowulf and we both looked at each other and I realized I knew all. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Besides certain characters, I didn't know the narrative well. Yeah. [00:42:17] Speaker B: I don't. [00:42:17] Speaker A: I didn't know he knew the basics in terms of, like, the back half. [00:42:22] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:23] Speaker A: I think, because he was like, do you even know how the story goes? And I went. I'm gonna be honest, Adam. I don't know what the fuck the next hour of this movie is. Because this is another two hour film. I think it kind of. It finds a way to make that more acceptable compared to. [00:42:39] Speaker B: It maybe makes more sense as a two hour film than Polar Express. [00:42:42] Speaker A: More of a. It's more of a tragic hero's tale that spans decades. [00:42:48] Speaker B: I do think it still. Maybe all three of these films lose a little steam in there. Like kind of latter thirds, maybe. [00:43:00] Speaker A: I would agree with that. [00:43:01] Speaker B: But I do think it's a little bit better balanced than Polar Express. [00:43:05] Speaker A: But Brennan Gleason and Ray Winstone, I think, are given enough of a redesign in their faces that they don't look. Exactly. Because Gleason at this point hasn't blown up as much. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:18] Speaker A: As he already, at this point, I think, had done Mad Eye Moody. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:22] Speaker A: Or is about to be mad. Around that time. [00:43:26] Speaker B: When was azkaban? Azkaban was 2007, wasn't it? [00:43:30] Speaker A: I think it was before that. I think. Goblet. [00:43:33] Speaker B: Goblet goblins 2007. So. And he's in that. I think. Yeah. [00:43:37] Speaker A: And then Bruges is around this time as well. [00:43:39] Speaker B: 2005, I think. [00:43:40] Speaker A: I think so. And so he's. So maybe it was. Maybe he already popped off a little with Mad Eye. [00:43:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:46] Speaker A: But those two actors are able to really, I think, act their asses off without being distracting. While as everybody else. I mean, Glover. Exception. But like, anytime Winston would be on screen. There'd be some solid, really good Beowulf moments. And then it would hard cut to just at the time. Photorealistic Anthony Hopkins. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Like, the most distracting to me was John Malkovich. [00:44:15] Speaker B: Oh. [00:44:17] Speaker A: Because he looked like. He looked like he was wearing shitty fantasy makeup in cgi. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:23] Speaker A: But he wasn't wearing that because they clearly added that afterwards. [00:44:27] Speaker B: The other weird thing about God. What is his name? It's like Unferth, I think, is his name. Yeah. Yeah. The other weird thing about Unferth is he. He has a weirdly large head. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Yes. [00:44:42] Speaker B: And like, I mean, I've never really studied John Malkovich's anatomy, but I don't know. I don't think of him as having an abnormally massive head, but the character does. And it's like he's the only character in the cast besides Grendel, who has a disproportionately large head. He's like, why he looks like a cartoon. [00:45:03] Speaker A: He also is kind of painted as a conniving. Almost like a. Could be. [00:45:07] Speaker B: He's like the Saruman's right hand in Lord of the Rings is how he feels. [00:45:13] Speaker A: Really shows where our brains are at. Because I agree with you. But he also had starscream energy to me where like he was gonna come back and try to take the throne. [00:45:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:22] Speaker A: Ultimately doesn't do that. Which I'm. I. He does have a good moment where he's like, I apologize for being an too Beowulf. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:45:30] Speaker A: And is very. Being a genuine man. [00:45:33] Speaker B: And it kind of sound like you kind of think that that is him being like, you know, conniving again. But he's like. No, he's actually just apologizing. [00:45:43] Speaker A: He's like, you literally just fought Grendel butt ass naked and took his arm off. So you are truly a hero. [00:45:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Speaking of the nakedness, this is a. I mean, this is a really horny movie. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:57] Speaker B: An unusually horny movie. [00:45:59] Speaker A: And we both watched the unrated version of this. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I believe so. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Which. I believe this film was PG 13. [00:46:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [00:46:08] Speaker A: I don't know how this movie makes any money above $10 million if it's. [00:46:12] Speaker B: Rated R. Yeah, well. And you know, to be honest, the unrated version is not like, probably wouldn't even have gotten an R. It's like. I guess it's like it's PG13, but maybe a couple extra seconds of shit. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Mikay like almost Mikay esque. Like blood spurt. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:29] Speaker A: Just like a. More. More added. Just like it doesn't cut away when it probably cuts away in the PG13 version because Grendel wrecks shit. It's probably the most gory part of the movie is when Grendel shows up and is mowing people down. [00:46:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:45] Speaker A: I think he at one point punts a woman. [00:46:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he punts a woman. He rips a dude in half. [00:46:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:52] Speaker B: Throws guys onto their spears. [00:46:54] Speaker A: But even him throat ripping that guy in half. They do. [00:46:56] Speaker B: They cut away. [00:46:57] Speaker A: They. [00:46:57] Speaker B: So that's like the piece of aspect. Yeah. [00:46:59] Speaker A: So like I think there's a part of it where the film was probably initially the scripts. The script is written by Gaiman and one of. [00:47:06] Speaker B: Yeah, Neil Gaiman and which makes. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Doesn't surprise me because Gaiman has spent a lot of his career, especially with like. Like the American Gods of it all just really focusing and researching Norse like mythologies across the world and writing novels. I think Gaiman even has an orthopedic novel. But he. I mean it's no surprise that I think is their script. I would not be surprised if it. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Was Hard R probably. [00:47:33] Speaker A: And then they were like, listen, we love a Beowulf that is hard R, but if we want to do it the way that we want to do it, we ain't going to get money if we do Hard R. So we're gonna have to cut around a few things. [00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:46] Speaker A: And it gets away with it being. I think still for a PG13 film being kind of intense and at a certain age, if you're like 12 or 13, seeing this probably still be a bit horrifying when Grendel is screaming at the top of his lungs in like. [00:47:59] Speaker B: Yeah. This movie isn't in an interesting space like content wise in terms of like its rating because it wants to be adult via the violence and the ex. Excessive horniness of the. Of the way the film. Yeah. [00:48:19] Speaker A: It's clearly trying to get that aspect of it being. [00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, we gotta have a shot of a, you know, cleaning ladies bouncing boobs. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Which I'm pretty sure is Amicus's wife. [00:48:29] Speaker B: That's. [00:48:30] Speaker A: I'm pretty sure who I. I believe also I don't know if they were married by the time Polar Express was out. But I believe she's also the motion cap actor actress for both the hero's mom and the Polar Express. I think she's the actress for both of them. [00:48:46] Speaker B: She is. [00:48:47] Speaker A: But yeah, I'm pretty sure if I remember correctly, the one thing I did know about Beowulf is that there's one character who is constantly being ogled at by the jiggle physics built into this woman. And that it was, I believe, some mechanism which is like, hey, man. [00:49:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:03] Speaker A: I'm glad you love your wife enough to be like, look how beautiful. Look at my smoke show digitally. [00:49:09] Speaker B: That's Boomer right there. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Yeah. But it's also, like. There's also a scene where she nearly gets assaulted. [00:49:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:49:15] Speaker A: It's like, okay, I get it. It's nurse, but don't do what you do. You don't. [00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:20] Speaker A: You're trying to be like, oh, this is hard. This is gritty. This is also real to the. The original text is. That's the energy the movie has that is trying to be like. We are trying to be authentic to the original text, whether that means the English story based off of the Norse hero or just more like trying to incorporate more Norse energy to an English poem. But it is kind of, you know, it's a film that does have that energy of, like. I would say while I do agree that the latter third, a lot of all three of these latter thirds are kind of like, loses some steam, I do think out of the three of. [00:49:59] Speaker B: These movies, does some carries at the best. [00:50:03] Speaker A: I mean, it does. And I also think when it's not until when Beowulf finally shows up, which is like 15 minutes in. [00:50:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:09] Speaker A: Like, I'm. I'm like, I'm in. This man is so full of vigor, and he's absolutely just not giving a fuck about being in the eye of a storm. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:21] Speaker A: And be like, the gods won't kill me today. That'd be a shitty death. And be like, this man. Yeah, we're doing a movie about this guy. And then when he shows up, what's all this, like, fun, weird things where it's like. You're like, is this guy full of shit? [00:50:34] Speaker B: Right? [00:50:34] Speaker A: And they're like, no, this guy's genuinely just. [00:50:36] Speaker B: He's got it. [00:50:37] Speaker A: This is the Beowulf story. [00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker A: And we're gonna tell it. And then it kind of gets to this point where I think about halfway through the movie, I bet if you were in theaters watching this movie, that you were all thinking the same thing, because I was thinking this while I was watching it. If you remember at all, at the time this movie was coming out, in the advertising for this movie, Ray Winstone was not pushed as the lead, even though he is. Hopkins was probably pushed. The cast is probably pushed to a certain extreme. But there was one cast member in particular that was pushed the most, and that is Angelina Jolie as Grendel's Mother Angela and Jolie. I would. I was completely shocked when she popped up. I was like, she still looks good. Like, the animation around surprising holds up pretty well. It is hilarious how her design is this weird. Like, I always kind of assumed her because she's a dragon. [00:51:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker A: She's like a gold dragon. And we never really fully see her gold dragon form. We see her head in a reflection. [00:51:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:41] Speaker A: And then it's mainly sexy Jolie version. [00:51:43] Speaker B: Yeah. She's nude. Julie. [00:51:45] Speaker A: So I was thinking, like, well, this is going to be PG13. She's clearly going to be like, she's going to come out of the water, quote unquote, naked. [00:51:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Because Adam. [00:51:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:54] Speaker A: Because Adam brought this up to. Yeah. If you're. If you're a horny teenage boy or just, I guess a horny man at the time and you're just seeing, like, CGI Jolie asscheeks and like a PG13 Beowulf. [00:52:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:06] Speaker A: I guess you're just going to like, wolf whistle like a cartoon and be like, holy. Oh, my gosh. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:11] Speaker A: Well, how they're getting away with this. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:13] Speaker A: And it's so funny to watch it now and be like. I think Adam was like, I remember trying to look up Angelina Jolie just for this shot. Yeah. And I'm like, how does it feel? And it's like, it's just there. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:25] Speaker A: But it's funny how our design is weirdly like, we can't show any nudity, but we're just going to have just enough gold on her body that it'll stop around her breasts. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:35] Speaker A: And we can't show her breasts, but we can show where her nipples are. [00:52:40] Speaker B: Yeah. We can show the shape of her nipples. We just can't show the color. So we're going to hide it in gold, but you're still gonna see the outline of her nipples. [00:52:48] Speaker A: Zemeckis. You don't why. Maybe that's an unrated thing. It'd be hilarious if the unrated version added the nipples. [00:52:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. The nipple dimension. Yeah. [00:52:57] Speaker A: It was so funny if the PG13 one just completely got rid of it. [00:53:00] Speaker B: Well, and it's so. It's funny, their workaround for that, because that first shot, like, the first shot of her kind of full frontal is like she's coming out of the water and the gold is kind of running off of her, like paint. [00:53:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:15] Speaker B: And it's like running off of every part of her body and, you know, kind of slows down on the runoff right at her nipples. And then there are several subsequent shots of her where the, like, the gold is still kind of running off, but it somehow never runs off in those two areas. [00:53:35] Speaker A: And it's just like, guys, come on. So horny. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:38] Speaker A: And I will say it's funny because it's like. It is funny to watch the movie and be like, Angelina Jolie's part of the movie is crucial because it does play. Yeah. [00:53:48] Speaker B: Pivotal character. [00:53:49] Speaker A: But she's in three scenes. [00:53:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Fully. [00:53:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:54] Speaker A: Like, technically four. Because, you know, when Grendel finally comes back after he loses an arm is I think we finally see or hear her voice. And then we see, like, her dragon form in, like, reflection. But, like, she's visually, she's. She's in three shots. Three or four shots, and then it's like. It. Yeah. [00:54:14] Speaker B: And her biggest scene, in terms of, like, when you see her face on screen is in the middle of the. [00:54:20] Speaker A: Movie is the scene where we see it in every trailer. [00:54:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:24] Speaker A: And it is the scene, again, it is the scene where it's supposed to sell you on the fact that Beowulf is going to make a very bad decision and fuck this Angelina Jolie dragon lady. But I will say, even in 2025, when I watched that scene, I went intrusive thought, I get it. [00:54:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:43] Speaker A: I. If it. If you're a monster fucker. If you think it's okay. I guess that's the case. But it really. It does sell it, I think this, the film. I will say I was very surprised by this because I really wasn't expecting anything either there with all the things. This is probably my favorite of the three. [00:55:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I had the most fun. [00:55:01] Speaker A: I had the most fun with this one. And I think this is the one that, like, has the most fun with the fact that, like, you know, the whole, like, you. You brought it up earlier, the Beowulf fight sequence where he's naked and they're almost doing an Austin Powers using. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Candle holders of cheese. [00:55:17] Speaker B: And then he's behind a barrel. Yeah. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Yeah. They hide his. They hide his. They, like, hide his nutsack. They hide his dick. [00:55:23] Speaker B: I think at one point a person dies and falls in front of his nuts. And so, like, he's. He's. He's covered up by a corpse. [00:55:30] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like it. But it's like, it still doesn't take away from how badass it is to see him just, like, really. Just literally full hog. It just, like, swinging around. [00:55:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Fighting a giant monster by, like, grabbing it from behind and just like. [00:55:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And doing. Doing, like, somersaults in the Rafters and. Yeah. Which, like, that's. That's probably the closest the film gets to, like, kind of losing me in the same way that the other two films in this trilogy kind of go roller coaster mode. Yeah. You know, that's kind of where it teeters on that. But it. I think this film gets by a little bit better because it's like, well, what's the alternative here? This is an old English poem that is inaccessible to most people from a reading standpoint, is probably boring by the modern audience's standards. You know, have fun with it. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Yeah. If I've ever tried to read this poem, like, if we ever were Tried to make, like, forced to read it in school. I do not remember. [00:56:29] Speaker B: I've not read it. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So, like, it's. [00:56:32] Speaker B: It's. [00:56:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's one of those poems. [00:56:34] Speaker B: And I don't think. I don't think I ever knew of this until the movie. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Oh, okay, fair enough. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Like. Like in 2007, when the movie came out, I don't think I knew what Beowulf was. [00:56:49] Speaker A: I think I always kind of, like, thought because again, I was. I don't know if it's brought up on the pot at all. I was a. I'm. I was a very. Was a giant whore for Greek mythology growing up. I still am. Like, that's why you see something like Assassin's Creed, Odyssey, and I'll put 100 plus hours in it because I love kind of that old ancient Greek. The mythologies, the kind of the. The architecture, the. The character, like the people of interest at that time and when they get statues. Of course. [00:57:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:18] Speaker A: That's what I really meant. But Norse mythology was something where it's like, I know Thor, Odin, low key. And Beowulf kind of almost seemed like it was like this, like. Oh, it's kind of like Hercules. [00:57:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:30] Speaker A: In a sense. And it's like, oh, I kind of get that. [00:57:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:33] Speaker A: And it's. And that was about it. [00:57:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Like, in terms of, like, how much I knew about him. And it probably wasn't until the movie where I was like, oh, there's enough about him that we could just spend a lot of money to just do this. And I. It's interesting to hear that, like, the. The. The more action. He kind of took you out of it a little bit more in the movie, because I think I was the inverse. Because in my opinion, the weakest part about the movie is the slower, more emotional moments. [00:58:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I'm not. I'm not saying those more acrobatic Crazy parts were, like, low points of the movie or anything. It was more just like I was saying that was. Those are where the film comes closest to having those issues that the other two films had, where it's like, okay, we're going way over the top with the crazy action here. But I agree with you. There's still fun sequences. And, yeah, when we're not doing that stuff, the film is not terribly interesting. [00:58:33] Speaker A: Because it's the most fun. Fun when Beowulf is just showing off, like, the first part of the film where he's with his boys, being like, I'm gonna tell you this story about how I lost the swim. I lost the swimming race, only because I killed nine sea monsters. And it's like that I stopped to kill monsters. Yeah. And then, like, there's the naked fight with Grendel, which is really well done. And then it's like the energy of him. It's like the most engaged bear wolf is as well as the character, because it's also like him trying to gain, you know, respect from the king, but also trying to make it clear from the king that he's not trying to fuck his wife, even though he clearly wants to fuck the queen. And, you know, the whole aspect of Brendan Gleason being like, I can see that from a mile away, brother, you need to slow your role. We are guests. And then when the halfway point hits, when Hopkins realizes that Beowulf fucked Grendel's mother and made the exact same mistake that Hopkins made, because we get a reveal that Grendel is actually Odin's character's son and that Grendel's mother. [00:59:39] Speaker B: Oh, Hopkins character. [00:59:41] Speaker A: Did I say Odin? [00:59:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:43] Speaker A: 4. It's hard not to. It's actually. It was funny. Adam was like, fuck, yeah. Like, every time I look at him, I was like. I think at one point he was like, yeah, Hopkins is one works with Norse mythology. And then he went, odin. Literally three years later, he's Odin. And it's like. But, like, when. Yeah, when Hopkins is like, well, you know, you made the same mistake as I have. And you know what? I can't. I can't live with that anymore. You become king now. I'm gonna kill myself. And in the back half of the movie, Beowulf is an older man, understandably, not as boastful as he used to be. But I would argue, you know, one of the best Beowulf moments is when he basically is asking an invader to kill him to be story. Very well. [01:00:27] Speaker B: Again, another incredible. [01:00:29] Speaker A: Like, a great windstone scene. There was genuinely a scene in this movie. It was during the sea monster story where it's a close up of Beowulf's face. And the amount of detail, it was the closest in any of these three movies where I went. That actually still looks like a real person's face for a brief moment. But it's insane that this movie is nearly 20 years old. [01:00:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:00:54] Speaker A: And the rest of film has, like, that pudgy kind of, like, weird kind of dead eye ness. At times, that scene felt very much like, God, that still looks phenomenal. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Well, the goddamn. The hair and the, like, skin textures in this movie are really good and like, still hold up. I think, honestly, maybe better than A Christmas Carol, even though that was two years later, a bigger budget. [01:01:20] Speaker A: Like, I do think this movie looks better than Christmas Carol in my opinion. [01:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, maybe. Yeah, at least. Certainly what stood out to me was, like, the skin and hair because, like, every character is like, you know, they're in depressing ass, old English land and, you know, Scandinavia. Everybody has, like, rain on their face and the, you know, wet droplets running down their face look really good. And the hair looks, like, shiny, but not too shiny and just moves really well in a way that, like, I don't know, I feel like movies still struggled to do for years after this. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's kind of like, fascinating to have that moment in a movie where I was like, these movies are not gonna wow me. Like, I'm not gonna be mean to these movies any more so than just being like, yeah, I'm kind of out of it. But that was a moment where I was like. I was like, wow. [01:02:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:15] Speaker A: Settle down. [01:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:17] Speaker A: And to be honest, like, you know, that was like, I think the best anime, kind of the best moment of the visual effects in the entire movie. Because after that, the movie still looks good. I think the dragon finale is a lot of fun. It's very engaging. But to get to that point is a lot of them. It's supposed to be very much a. Much a lot of emotional moments about Beowulf, you know, being an old grouchy man who realizes that now he's at a point where he's like, fuck. The last time I. I'm about the age, or I'm supposed to be about the age of Hopkins's character, and he whiffed it off a cliff last time I saw him. So I guess it's almost my time now. But there's like, this they introduce, which I believe is in the original. I wouldn't know, but there's a love triangle aspect of him. His wife, who's very. She never says outright that she's aware of the curse and that she fucked Grendel's mother. But he. He fucked Grendel's mother. But it's pretty clear that she knows. [01:03:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:19] Speaker A: Because she says at one point, like, what? Because there's him, her, and then there's what they call his bed warmer. Ursula, played by Allison Loman, who we've talked about on the podcast, because she's the lead. She's the lead in Drag Me to Hell. [01:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah, the Raimi film. And there's a moment where they're talking and they're very cordial with one another, even though it's pretty clear that they know each other's relationship with Beowulf. And then at one point, she asked the queen, you know, he still clearly very much loves you. Why is there such animosity? And then she says, too many secrets. And that's pretty much it. Like, there's not, like, the emotional aspect of the narrative that should really be like, fuck, I just want Beowulf to make it out of this. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:02] Speaker A: It doesn't hit the way it probably should. So when the film ends, and spoiler alert, you know, Beowulf dies in a triumphant act, a valiant act to prove that he's still the warrior that he once was by killing his son, a gold dragon. Ultimately, like, losing, like, his legs and up both his arms, right. In order to save his wife and his mistress. And his best friend becomes the king. There is a. It honestly kind of feels like, oh, we're done. We're actually at the end now. This is the finale of the film. Oh, okay. [01:04:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:42] Speaker A: And then the ending of the movie, I would say, has probably the best kind of stinger of any of these movies, where basically, you know, Polar Express ends on this moment where, like, you know, Tom Hanks is being like, the hero. Boy gets the silver bell. And it's like, even when everyone else couldn't hear that bell, I still hear it every single Christmas. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:02] Speaker A: A cute little ending tap on that movie. Well, as Beowulf ends in this really interesting way of, like, Brendan Gleeson's character becomes king. They give Beowulf Viking death. And then Beowulf's ship basically gets pulled into the sea faster than expected because his corpse, Grendel's mother, is now reclaiming him because she gets on the boat. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:26] Speaker A: Falls into the sea with him. And then Grendel's mother is now just watching from afar Almost waiting to see if Gleason will make the same mistake that Beowulf made, which is like a. [01:05:37] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. [01:05:38] Speaker A: It's no reason to end like that, but I'll take it. I think there's. Again, if there's anything I could say about these three movies before we get to Christmas Carol is that there's. There's not. There's never been an intent in these films. Any feeling that Zemeckis isn't putting his all. [01:05:56] Speaker B: No. [01:05:56] Speaker A: As the. As the. As the. As the director, as the auteur. The kind of. The idea of what he wants the. These movies to look like there. You cannot phone in these movies or it's really just going to look like dog shit from the get go. [01:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:11] Speaker A: And so like clearly all three of these movies have an intention in terms of their design, their execution. The use of the 3D. Of the three of them especially, like, even though Polar Express didn't pop out to me as much, I'm bringing that up because Christmas Carol is probably the most. The biggest offender of those three. [01:06:29] Speaker B: Offender in terms of what? [01:06:30] Speaker A: The 3D? [01:06:32] Speaker B: Sure. [01:06:32] Speaker A: Because of that. Oh, I just pushed the mic off. I was getting too animated. Was recreating. [01:06:39] Speaker B: I guess a CG should be a motion capture performer. [01:06:42] Speaker A: It'd be obviously kind of fun. I'm not against that at all. But it is kind of interesting going from Beowulf that in a two year span we're getting to our final film. [01:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:53] Speaker A: Of the trilogy, A Christmas Carol. And before we get into that, I do want to ask Andy when it comes to A Christmas Carol. [01:07:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:02] Speaker A: Considering I could ask you the question, when did you read the book? The first time. But you are the same age as me and you are as much of a fucking nerd as I am when it comes to movies. So like, what was the first adaptation that I saw? Yes. Probably a better description. Like a. [01:07:21] Speaker B: Probably the George C. Scott version. [01:07:26] Speaker A: Really? [01:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Which I think is just because I have old parents. Like my parents were older than most kids my age's parents. [01:07:34] Speaker A: That didn't surprise me to hear that. [01:07:36] Speaker B: A lot of my references growing up are like 20 years older than my peers. [01:07:41] Speaker A: And you know what? Your parents showed you a. I would say a great adaptation. [01:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, It's a good one. [01:07:46] Speaker A: George C. Scott. I've only seen that adaptation once. It was for school. But that adaptation is still stuck in my brains as I watched it. [01:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that was also the version I saw and I probably saw it in school for the first time. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:58] Speaker B: No, my parents Showed me that. But then it did. That was like when we read it in school. That was the version we watched. [01:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:05] Speaker B: Which. Because that was probably before the. I probably read that in school before the 2009 film came out. [01:08:13] Speaker A: You probably aged out when they showed Luke a black and white silent film version. No, but you will. You will not be surprised to hear from me. With my parents, my first version was the Disney. The ebenezer Scrooge. Scrooge McDuck as Ebenezer. [01:08:29] Speaker B: Oh, the Scrooge Duck version. Okay. Yeah. [01:08:31] Speaker A: That was the first ever Christmas Carol I had ever watched. [01:08:35] Speaker B: Was that feature length? [01:08:38] Speaker A: It's. I would say it's. It should be. I would say it's about as long as this movie is. Because most Christmas Carol adaptations are about in the 90 minute range. I would say. [01:08:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:48] Speaker A: Roughly. Because it's not that long of a. [01:08:51] Speaker B: Story and it's got a pretty defined, like. [01:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:56] Speaker B: Arc. [01:08:57] Speaker A: I would say the only one I could think of that is probably past that is Scrooged. [01:09:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:09:03] Speaker A: Scrooge is like two hours. And it might be a hot take to say this. I can change my mind in the future for sure. Not a big fan of Scrooge. [01:09:10] Speaker B: Fair enough. [01:09:12] Speaker A: Not a bad movie. Just. I remember when I watched it for the first time and it just was, like, didn't really do anything for me, sadly. But. But that movie, I think, is two hours. It could just be just an hour. [01:09:23] Speaker B: I'm seeing. Is it Mickey's Christmas Carol with. With Scrooge McDuck as Ebenezer Scrooge? Yeah. That's 26 minutes. [01:09:30] Speaker A: Are you serious? [01:09:32] Speaker B: Which I can relate to this because growing up. Growing up, I mean, my favorite version of the Grinch to this day is the old cartoon, which, like, I always thought was a whole, like, hour and a half movie or whatever. [01:09:46] Speaker A: And it's me too. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Like 20 something. [01:09:48] Speaker A: 20 something? Yeah. It's the Karloff of it all. It gives it this epicness. [01:09:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:54] Speaker A: Yeah. That does not surprise me that my childlike memory of that. My child memory of that means I thought it was 90 minutes. [01:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:01] Speaker A: But, yeah. That version of the film is what. That version of the story is what stuck out to me the most because it's specific parts. Which we'll get into more when we talk about this because it's also not the first. This is. I don't. [01:10:12] Speaker B: We will be going beat by beat over this film and comparing it to the Scrooge McDuck version. Well, Logan will tell us why it's better. [01:10:19] Speaker A: Oh, the Scrooge McDuck version is, I would say, miles better. [01:10:22] Speaker B: Okay. [01:10:23] Speaker A: Because it gets everything across. You get every character you. You want out of your favorite Disney characters. And also, I would say one of my biggest things about this version of Christmas Carol, I'm not really emotionally invested in really anything that's going on in the narrative. And I think a lot of that is because of the character design choices as well as the rollercoaster aspect. [01:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I would agree with that. And also add to that perhaps a misallocation of Jim Carrey. [01:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Because this film follows in the spirit of Polar Express in making its leading man play several characters. [01:11:02] Speaker A: It's just three, right. Or is he also Cratchit? [01:11:05] Speaker B: Well, he plays. He plays. No, Cratchit is Gary Oldman. But he plays. I mean, of course he plays, I think, every version of Scrooge, and then he plays all three spirits. And I think, no, Gary Oldman played Marley and Cratchit. [01:11:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:25] Speaker B: So I think it was just the. The versions of Scrooge and the spirits, but, man, at least the Ghost of Christmas Past, really bizarre choice there. It. [01:11:40] Speaker A: I appreciate the fact that, if anything from Beowulf, because the thing about Beowulf is I do not think Beowulf was a success financially. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it made, like. It was, like 150 million budget and made less than 200 million. [01:11:52] Speaker A: So, yeah, it wasn't panned critically, but I think most people were like, okay. I mean, do you really need to do this story in full cg? I mean, it's cool, but I don't know. Is it really good? [01:12:05] Speaker B: Is it really worth it? The reviews for all three of these movies from the time read very much the same, and a lot of them just boil down to, firstly, people kind of not resonating with the animation, because even at the time, the animation was criticized for being too lifeless or Uncanny Valley. And then on top of that, not enough care put into the narrative. It was kind of like. Like I said earlier, kind of a tech demo of, like, you know, there's all these cool, cool animated rollercoastery things and not enough, like, meat to it. And that's kind of reiterated in the review, the contemporary reviews of all three of these movies. And I think I get the impression that, like, by the time A Christmas Carol comes out, it's like, okay, this is the third time we've done this. Zemeckis. Yeah, let's get with, like, come on, man. [01:13:01] Speaker A: But did it. Yeah. I was wondering. [01:13:03] Speaker B: Now you're doing it with an iconic Novel. [01:13:06] Speaker A: And it's a Disney film that has a lot of money pumped into it. It's a 3D release around Christmas. Did this make enough money back? Because I don't know Christmas Carol. [01:13:17] Speaker B: Yeah, Christmas Carol was. So this is the most expensive of the three. Not by miles. It's made for about 200 million. Beowulf was 150. Polar Express was a little. Was like 165. [01:13:31] Speaker A: Wow. [01:13:31] Speaker B: So Beowulf was actually the smallest budget. But okay, Christmas Carol made just 325 million. So not a massive success. I mean, maybe not even breaking even after marketing costs and stuff. [01:13:48] Speaker A: They quote, unquote. You know, industry math is that you have to. [01:13:52] Speaker B: You double the recorded budget. Yeah. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Because it doesn't come from marketing stuff. So yeah, like 400 was when people would be like, oh, it actually made money. Yeah, so it did make. [01:14:02] Speaker B: Which is weird because I, I mean I, I did not have my finger on the pulse of the box office in 2009 as a 14 year old. But I remember feeling like this movie was a really big deal. So I'm a little surprised that it didn't make more money than that. [01:14:18] Speaker A: So I have a silly story as to how I got introduced to this version of Christmas Carol at our local theater back in Columbus. It was an AMC at this point, they used to make the people that work there, they used to have aprons that were sometimes advertising films that were coming out. So certain studios would send certain types of aprons. Disney had aprons for pretty much all their hit animated films that were coming. [01:14:45] Speaker B: Out at the time. [01:14:46] Speaker A: I remember at one point they were people wearing Princess and the Frog aprons for the longest time. And that was the first time I had heard that they were making. I was like, oh, that's wild. I didn't expect to see AMC Workers Apron be the first time I hear about this. And then I think months after that, maybe even a year after, because I can't remember relatively when those, both those movies came out. I remember seeing someone have Disney's A Christmas Carol on their chest and being like, there's already a Disney's Christmas Carol. What the fuck are they doing? And then I remember looking it up and being like, oh, it's CG Jim Carrey. [01:15:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:21] Speaker A: Because at this point when this movie is coming out, if you are Christmas Fiend, like a lot of families can be, you've probably already seen either you have a version of A Christmas Carol that you've seen ad nauseam. [01:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:34] Speaker A: Or your family has been like, you know what? We're gonna be crazy. We're gonna watch a different version of A Christmas Carol. [01:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:40] Speaker A: Because my family's version of A Christmas Carol that they loved. They showed me the. The 28 minute one of them. But my. My father, or my dad is a. Is a lover of the Muppets. He's a lover of Muppets. So of course he has the same favorite Christmas Carol to his friend of the pod in front of our real life Austin Webster has, which is A Muppet Christmas Carol, which I would probably say now is my favorite as well. [01:16:04] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [01:16:05] Speaker A: I love that version of the Christmas Carol. And I am more emotionally invested with those puppets than anything in this movie. But I remember just like, by the time this movie is coming out, I think most people are like, do we need another one of these? [01:16:21] Speaker B: Sure. [01:16:22] Speaker A: And the answer usually is no. But at the same time, years after this movie, we still get, literally, I think two to three years ago, Apple tv. Apple produced another version of the Christmas Carol Story. That is a musical with Ryan Reynolds, Octavia Spencer and Will Ferrell. That is you. I know, but you know what I'm talking about. [01:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:49] Speaker A: You've seen. [01:16:50] Speaker B: I can like, pick. Picture it. Yeah. [01:16:52] Speaker A: But that is A Christmas Carol because it's like, I believe that's Ryan Reynolds. That's Ryan Reynolds, I believe, as the Scrooge type character. [01:16:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:59] Speaker A: And then Will Ferrell is the ghosts and they just do the. They just do the thing again. And that was in 20. That's in the 2000s. [01:17:05] Speaker B: Yeah. That was not long ago. [01:17:07] Speaker A: We're still doing a spirited, spirited. Yeah, we're still doing Christmas Carol mod like adaptations in the 2000s. [01:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, hey, we've got one ahead of us in the 2000 and twenties, which I completely. I am very excited about. Cautiously, very excited about. [01:17:25] Speaker A: I am excited of the. The Tramell Tillman of it all as the Ghost of Christmas Present, our boy from Severance, who is going to be the Ghost of Christmas Present in the film. [01:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:36] Speaker A: Wait, we're talking about the Ty west one, right? [01:17:39] Speaker B: No, actually, there's another one. You know about this. You may have forgotten about this, but. But Robert Eggers is developing A Christmas Carol. [01:17:48] Speaker A: I. I keep thinking of the Eggers projects that he's developing. It's Labyrinth 2 and a Christmas Carol. And I forget. I always think of Labyrinth 2. [01:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:56] Speaker A: Because I kind of want. I just want Eggers so badly to make Nosferatu Werewolf and then go right into Labyrinth. Use all of his good graces to get Jim Henson Creature Shop, the Money they need for a leprechaun. [01:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah. No, the. I have minimal enthusiasm for Ty West Christmas Carol, but okay, that makes more sense. [01:18:19] Speaker A: I'm excited in that version of TI West. Just for the Tramill Tillman. [01:18:23] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. [01:18:24] Speaker A: Ian McKellen's a good choice too. Johnny Depp as Ebenezer is the one. [01:18:28] Speaker B: Thing that I'm like, wait and see where I'm going with this. But I'll take just a brief aside to go over my excitement and hesitation about A Robert Eggers Christmas Carol. [01:18:42] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [01:18:43] Speaker B: Because in many senses I think he. His sensibilities as a filmmaker are kind of perfect for A Christmas Carol. Because what I have always felt was lacking in every adaptation that I've seen is the like kind of the depth of the horror of it. [01:19:04] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [01:19:05] Speaker B: Not that I want a full on horror film. Depressing, bleak, scary, violent, whatever. I don't want all that. But it's always felt to me and there's a lot of good reasons for this. Like almost every adaptation of A Christmas Carol pulls its punches in like the darkest scenes of the story, the most horrific scenes. And so none of them have really given me the chills that the book gave me. And obviously Robert Eggers, great horror filmmaker. Yeah, he's got the chops there. The last reporting on this, which was months ago, was like Willem Dafoe was in talks for Scrooge, which like, also perfect because I could have been a. [01:19:47] Speaker A: Millionaire if I had just been on that. [01:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah, right, right. [01:19:50] Speaker A: Because that's easy money. [01:19:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And Defoe obviously has the chops and has. Has, you know, shown in the past he can be the evil miser and your coolest uncle. Yeah, like, and so he's kind of perfect to play that range of Scrooge because by the end you have to have Scrooge be a nice guy. What I worry though is Eggers is going to be tempted to make it like the most depressing thing imaginable and it's just not A Christmas Carol if it doesn't end on a really positive note. [01:20:30] Speaker A: I agree. [01:20:30] Speaker B: Like, that's the whole fucking point. And I, I know Eggers probably knows that, but I'm. My concern is that he will just want to make it all super fucked up. [01:20:41] Speaker A: It's funny that you bring it up because I agree with you that I think the. What a lot of the adaptations, understandably so, yeah. [01:20:48] Speaker B: They all have good reasons for not going there, like full bore. [01:20:51] Speaker A: Yeah. But at the same time it is interesting how a lot of those versions still have found ways to sprinkle it in in specific, in little ways. Like, I think Muppet Christmas Carol. [01:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:02] Speaker A: I think even gets away with some of their puppet designs. Yeah. I always remembered, for some reason, the Ghost of Christmas Past and the Muppet Christmas Carol rubbing me the wrong way. Like, the design, like this weird kind of ethereal fairy. And I was just like, you're so small, so weird. [01:21:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:20] Speaker A: And then, of course, you know, the Ghost of Christmas yet to Come. [01:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:23] Speaker A: I always think, like, the thing that really got me as a kid when I watched that Disney version is the way that film, in 26 minutes, gets through the story, but also introduces the idea of Tiny Tim dying in that movie is a shot. It goes straight from the end of Present yet to Be. Take Scrooge, if I remember correctly. They go straight to the cemetery, and then it's a wide shot of a lone Mickey next to a gravestone. Sad. And then Scrooge goes up, sees its Tiny Tim, and then they see his grave, and they shove him in the grave. And as a kid, you're just like, they killed the little boy. Oh, my God. But, like, I do remember, like, the George C. Scott version as well as. Because around that time, we were reading the book to prep to watch the movie as well, because it was around that time where, like, it was probably October, November, we started reading as a class, that book. And then, of course, by the time we got to winter break, we were watching the C. Scott version. I remember certain lines reading that book being like, I've never heard a version really push, you know, the line that always sticks in my head is like, well, they should go ahead and do it and decrease the surplus population, which is something most versions barely touch on. Or they, like, kind of push aside. But I remember the George C. Scott version really nailing that in. [01:22:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:44] Speaker A: Because the Christmas Present, when he brings that back up in that version, it is like listening to that man stab Scrooge in the side, like, really trying to really dig it into him. And, like, also the. The biggest part of that book, which I think the Zemeckis version really tries to make horrifying, because the Zemeckis version does try. [01:23:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:04] Speaker A: But it also is, like Andy Said is constantly battling between the whimsy, the roller coaster aspect, which of all these adaptations, the 3D blockbuster, I would have to say, understand again, I understand. It's the only reason why this movie got off the ground. A Christmas Carol does not need to be a fucking roller coaster. It's supposed to be a very intimate, emotional narrative. About an old man who is bitter, who realizes that it is never too old to be a good person and also enjoy a fucking holiday. [01:23:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:38] Speaker A: It is really when you take the God, the Yet To Come shit in this movie where he becomes really tiny. [01:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:45] Speaker A: And he's trying to run away from. [01:23:47] Speaker B: It's really frustrating because there are basically two sequences in this film that I think kind of define how misguided that roller coastery 3D blockbustery philosophy is in these movies, particularly this one. And that is the Ghost of Christmas Present sequence in which the floor of the ghost's room becomes a glass bottom and we soar over England to all these different locations. It's like, why. Why is this literally a, like, indoor video ride at an amusement park? Like, that's what this feels like. You're sitting in the car and the car shakes and the screen, you know, you. It's the Spider man ride at Universal or whatever. [01:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [01:24:36] Speaker B: And like you said, the Ghost of Christmas yet to Come sequence, which comes off the heels of what might be the scariest part, the creepiest version of the character that I've seen in any of these adaptations, because you get this really great, basically, silent sequence. [01:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:58] Speaker B: Right after. First of all, the Ghost of Christmas Past decomposes in front of the present, decomposes in front of Scrooge, and he's horrified by that. And then the yet to Come shows up as just a silent shadow. And, like, that sequence where he evolves from Scrooge's shadow and then is just silently pointing at things. Stuff is so good. But then they have to go and make him, like, pop out of the shadow as this, like, physical black. I don't know. It's like this black, shiny Tar Man. And then. Yeah. It just. It becomes. Yeah. Him chasing him all over London and he shrinks down and he gets chased by the horses and he has to go down a drainpipe and onto a roof. And. Yeah. It's like, come on, you had this great little. Like, this creepy. Because of how quiet and still it was, especially amidst this movie that's always moving and crazy and colorful. [01:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:59] Speaker B: Then we get this calm moment and you throw it away because it is. [01:26:03] Speaker A: One of those things where I think the biggest moments, the three key things I think is Cratchit and his family, the interpretations of the ghosts themselves. And then really digging in deep the Scrooge's past. Because once you really. Because the whole thing about the Ghost of Christmas Past aspect. And this is why I love the Muppet Christmas Carol version of it is, I think, Michael Caine in that version, even though he has a tiny little fairy puppet with him the whole time, there is a genuine sense of anguish and sadness when he has to relive losing his lost love. [01:26:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:44] Speaker A: And there's this energy where it's like, all right, now you're really depressed because you're old as shit and you'll never be able to have her. It's time for the next ghost. [01:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:52] Speaker A: And in this, like. In this version, because like Andy said, every version of Scrooge is played by Jim Carrey. It just really. You're not really invested as much as you probably should be. [01:27:04] Speaker B: Well, all of the. All of the, like, flashbacks in the, like, the past, and this is also an issue in the sequence with the present. But all of the flashbacks kind of feel like obligations. [01:27:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:17] Speaker B: Like, I mean, I went and saw a community theater production of A Christmas Carol last year, and granted, I knew the guy who was playing Scrooge, so I was personally invested there. But, like, even that version, a humble community performance, felt like it was putting a lot more care and emotion into depicting Scrooge at a happier time in his life. And, like, how he threw that all away and how that hurts him to see now and how he doesn't really get it. Like, he doesn't get that it's all his fault and it was. That it was avoidable. And in this movie, you don't feel all that because you're. You just kind of hop from one to the next and the sequences happen basically as written, but just like, nothing more. [01:28:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:28:11] Speaker B: It's very, like, okay, we said the line. Now he moves on to. When he, like, loses his girlfriend. [01:28:18] Speaker A: He goes to Fenny Wicks, which is. [01:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:22] Speaker A: Which is the. Probably one of the last role, if not the last role of Bob Hoskins before he passes away, who is just delightful in this movie. And they don't even try to hide Bob Hoskins character. But it is like you. Like you said, it is. At a certain point, it does feel like the flashbacks, the real meat of the film does have this energy of, like, we're doing this beat. We're doing this beat. Yeah, this beat. Because in my head, it's like the past stuff hits the hardest when you really have this energy of this man who at this point is just a stone wall. And you start to see the cracks show in the regret, in the feeling of understanding that he doesn't believe he. This is unavoidable when it always was. [01:29:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:09] Speaker A: And just realizing that that's the whole point. Because now you can make a difference later on. [01:29:15] Speaker B: Right. [01:29:15] Speaker A: And then. But I'll let present talk about that and then like you get that aspect. But in present. Because in my opinion. Or yeah. Like presents. My favorite part. [01:29:24] Speaker B: I love of this movie. [01:29:25] Speaker A: Yeah. No, or of the story. The story, sure. I don't really like anything in this movie. I don't hate it. Here's the thing. My least favorite of these three, Polar Express is very easy for me to watch. Adam and I were having like moments of hooping and hollering at random times in Beowulf. A Christmas Carol is 30 minutes or 90 minutes. It took me two hours to watch this. I kept falling asleep. And this is a story that I like. I really. You know, if it's A Muppet Christmas Carol, I'm locked in. [01:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm fucking in. Because I love my. I love Michael Caine. I love the puppets. I. Again, I'm biased. [01:30:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Because when Fezziwig is fucking Fozzie, I'm down. [01:30:07] Speaker B: Fozzie wig. [01:30:08] Speaker A: Fozzie wig is fantastic. But like in this one, it's just like, Gary Oldman is a phenomenal actor, but, man, I do not like the ye old, clearly Dickens inspired designs for everybody. I don't like the design. [01:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, they're. They're all. [01:30:27] Speaker A: They're nasty. Yeah, they're old. They're nasty. And I really think it. That layer, the design plus the animation of it all adds multiple layers between the performance of the actors in the final product. [01:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:42] Speaker A: That I feel like the only time I think Oldman is really able to. To give Cratchit the love and the appreciation that character should have where you just love this character so much you want Scrooge to stop being an asshole and help this man. The only time that works is an aspect from the book. I don't think most films have really done the way that this movie does, which is the aspect when he goes up the stairs and locks eyes with Scrooge. Like. [01:31:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:14] Speaker A: And did like, goes up to see Tiny Tim's dead body. [01:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:17] Speaker A: Like, that's the part I remember from the book. Because I think in the book they even talk about, like, it isn't like. It's just almost a brief moment where they lock eyes. It's almost like he can see him. And that scares the shit out of Scrooge because he's being seen for the first time this entire whole thing. But like, yeah, the Ghost of Christmas Pass. The design is like, I fucking hate. [01:31:41] Speaker B: The ghosts of Christmas. [01:31:42] Speaker A: I get what you're doing. But he's so light spoken. He's so weird and I just. [01:31:48] Speaker B: It's the fact that. Okay, so like you. I don't mind the design for the most part. Like, I. Like, he's a candle. He's a candle. His face is flame. So why am I looking into this flame and seeing literally just Jim Carrey's face superimposed onto. [01:32:07] Speaker A: We have to show the kids. Jim Carrey's doing it all, baby. [01:32:11] Speaker B: Like, ah. It's the. I mean you see it a little bit in present. You can kind of see Jim Carrey's face in that. But like past is so much more egregious I think because it's. The physics of it don't make sense because it's like it's a flame, so it's emitting light. So why does he have like three dimensional shadows on his face? And why is it literally the exact same shape of real life Jim Carrey's face? Like, come on, make it look different. [01:32:42] Speaker A: The design should be that the. The flame is so hot. [01:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:46] Speaker A: That it's flickering in a way that it almost looks like his face. [01:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:50] Speaker A: Because it really is just like taking a 3D model and plopping. [01:32:54] Speaker B: Sticking it on to. Yeah. So funny and non corporeal form. [01:32:58] Speaker A: It's funny that you say that about past because that's my. That's probably. That's also why I hate present. Like a present. When he shows up, the design looks like what you think present is. [01:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah. From a distance it looks good. [01:33:09] Speaker A: But he will not stop laughing. [01:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:13] Speaker A: He is so jolly in a way that it feels so fake in a. [01:33:17] Speaker B: Way it's like insidious. [01:33:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:21] Speaker B: He seems evil. [01:33:23] Speaker A: And it's funny because the whole thing about the most scary. Like in my opinion, the scariest part of the book when you're reading it is the, you know, it's at the end of the present aspect. [01:33:32] Speaker B: Oh, the two children. [01:33:33] Speaker A: The two children. That's supposed to. Because the whole thing about President is that he should be genuinely jolly for the majority of it. Until you get to the point where he starts to be kind of nefariously bitter and mean towards Scrooge. And you're like, hold on. This man's wearing like. He's such a sweet man. He's wearing a robe. [01:33:53] Speaker B: But it's like, oh, he's a reflection of our reality. [01:33:56] Speaker A: And he show and he like when he does the. When he does the decreased surplus population throwback, it's of a supposed to really be like, whoa. He's throwing it back. And then the end when he's just like, this is ignorance and want and they're under my. And he just pulls back and these two children that turned into like. Like a nasty old man and then. And a prostitute. [01:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:34:18] Speaker A: And it's like that part should really be like, oh, my gosh, this man has betrayed me almost. [01:34:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:24] Speaker A: I've. I thought this man was super jolly and was supposed to be super helpful. And he is helpful, but way more sinister sense. But at the very beginning, Carrie is playing it sinisterly. [01:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:36] Speaker A: There is an energy of him going way too hard. Almost like the Grinch is jokingly laughing. [01:34:42] Speaker B: Yeah. It's maniacal. [01:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:44] Speaker B: It's not earnest. Yeah, It's. [01:34:47] Speaker A: It's in my head. If you have a Christmas Carol version and two out of the three versions of the ghosts are not very. They don't really work. [01:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:56] Speaker A: That's not an adaptation that I really need to waste my time on. And, like. And, yeah, the ghost, I agree with any of the ghost yet to come is a rad design. And I think they commit enough that it's like, that's. That's. That's really cool. I like how you did that until you get to the 3D ass. [01:35:12] Speaker B: Yeah. He just becomes a chaser. [01:35:15] Speaker A: He gets a rad ghost rider, carriage of ghost horses. And. [01:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:19] Speaker A: You know, goes from being a shadow that is, like, not trying to be menacing to almost being like, I'm gonna fucking get you. Random point. And it's like, no, he didn't have. [01:35:29] Speaker B: The fucking headless Horseman. [01:35:30] Speaker A: I'm gonna get you. Regardless. He doesn't have to chase anybody. He'll always be there. That's the whole point. It's. It's. It is inevitable. And it's like this whole thing of. There, at least this version is inevitable unless you take these lessons to heart. It's like this, like, this whole thing of just like. This version, I think, is a fine enough adaptation of the book in its, like, foundational aspects of, like. Yeah, if you read the book, if you. If you are in classes now, if you like. Or if you're like, hypothetically, it's like a middle school and you read this book and then you go and watch this version of the film. You'll probably go like, oh, yeah, that's the part where the population. It's as when his nephew comes over and he's mean. [01:36:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:23] Speaker A: Which is another part from the other versions that I kind of miss where, like, I swear, in the other version of the Christmas Carol. They. When they bring Scrooge into his nephew's Christmas party, they. They. They lull you into a sense that everything's all nice and dandy. And then they do the whole game where they make fun of Scrooge. [01:36:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:43] Speaker A: Because in the Zemeckis version. [01:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:45] Speaker A: As soon as he shows up, they're already playing. [01:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:36:49] Speaker A: And they're playing that game at the very beginning of their party. Yeah. And it's like, I remember, I think in the George C. Scott version, it's like one of the last things they do in that scene. So it gives you again. Christmas Carol as a story should lull you into a sense of like, okay, we're in a flashback. [01:37:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:05] Speaker A: Scrooge is happy. Everything should be okay. And then it gets sad. Oh, well, maybe present will be a little bit nicer. [01:37:12] Speaker B: Her. [01:37:12] Speaker A: And it's like, oh, my gosh. [01:37:13] Speaker B: Presence Worse. [01:37:15] Speaker A: Bob Cratchit is such a sweet man. His family's so great. Tiny Tim is the sweetest boy in the world. Hopefully that limp fixes. And the presence just goes. I don't know. Then that's when you're like, oh. And then that's when yet to Come is. Like, yet to Come is not going to give you any. So false sense of hope. [01:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:32] Speaker A: Yet to Come is where you get the parts in the book where it's like, I stole his drapes, I stole this blanket from his dead body. Like, I stole his clothes from his dead body. And then you get the Cratchit scene. And it does the book for what I remember it doing to a degree, but not in a way that it feels like, oh, this is. This is what I expected when I read in my head. Pops out. No, it really is just like a late 2000s, 3D version of a Charles Dickens novel about Christmas. And it is like, I remember. I think my mom still really enjoys this adaptation. If I need to talk to her about if she still does or not. But I think a lot of it is in her head. I think it's because it is. Because I think it's dedication to the kind of vocabulary, because it does pretty much do the book verbatim. [01:38:25] Speaker B: A lot of the lines are carried through. Yeah. [01:38:28] Speaker A: But I would argue watching it this time, like, especially with Scrooge. I just think Carrie's version of Scrooge is so comically mean that all the goo. All the lines. [01:38:40] Speaker B: Go ahead. [01:38:41] Speaker A: No, but he is. He is mean in the book. Yeah, but it's like, that he should decrease the surplus population. It's Like, I get it, man. Compared to, like. Like, to me, I feel like it's like, that's why I always go back to, like, you know, Michael Caine's version where there is. There is a. He doesn't seemingly feel like the meanest man in the world until you talk to him. [01:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's just the Jim Carrey of it. He's hamming it up beyond belief. [01:39:10] Speaker A: He looks like a witch from fucking Roald Dahl's the Witches. [01:39:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:13] Speaker A: Looks so decrepit. [01:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:17] Speaker A: Which is. I mean, which I think is like. [01:39:18] Speaker B: And he's. It's like he's being silly in his depiction of Scrooge's meanness. And it's like, there shouldn't really be any silliness there. [01:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:29] Speaker B: He shouldn't feel like a caricature. He should feel like a bitter old man. [01:39:33] Speaker A: Like, I do like the like. And it's clear that, like, when he gets to become, you know, you there, boy. What day is it when he becomes that Scrooge? That's where you get the most fun Jim Carrey stuff. Because that's where he's Scrooge and he's fucking with people. [01:39:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:49] Speaker A: But he also. It's also where, like, you get that scene that is, in my head, the most, like, motion capture scene scene where he's like, I'm not. Too late. I'm not. He's jumping up in his little robes and he's doing a little dance. I'm so holly and jolly and limber because it's CGI and I don't have to worry about anything around me. But it is like. But by that point, the story is done in, like, 10 minutes. [01:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:10] Speaker A: So it's like, it doesn't really. It's like, it's more fun. Like, it gets to a point where it gets to, like. Is one of my favorite moments in the book, in any kind of adaptation, is when he pretends to be mean because he thinks that it's funny to fuck with Bob. [01:40:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:25] Speaker A: I love that scene in most adaptations of it because it is kind of like, oh, my gosh, he really has gone full circle now. He's making fun of himself. [01:40:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:40:34] Speaker A: I love that. [01:40:34] Speaker B: Parodying himself. [01:40:35] Speaker A: Yeah. But, like, since Carrie is so animated and over the top for the last, like, 10 minutes while he's trying to, like, redeem himself. [01:40:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:43] Speaker A: When we get to the final scene in the movie, which is the final scene in the book, of just kind of like, coming in the next day and being like, I'm gonna be so mean to Bob, and it's gonna fuck him up, and it's gonna be so silly. And then I'm gonna give him a raise. By the time you get that, it almost has that, like, it's not as fun, to be honest, too. I also think it's because I like the interpretation. A lot of adaptations where that doesn't happen the next day. That happens Christmas Day as he's going to their house. Because there are. Because I think of the Muppet Christmas Carol, if I remember correctly. I thought there's. There's certain adaptations where he buys them the Christmas turkey, the ham. [01:41:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:21] Speaker A: Buys it. That it gets sent to their house. He does everything else with, you know, family members and whatnot. And then the film ends with him going to Cratchit's house with all the family. [01:41:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:41:35] Speaker A: And then you have the whole family being scared of Scrooge and then Scrooge being like, no, I'm here to just, you know, be like, not only am I telling you you're getting a raise, I also bought you this hand because I want to spend. I think you would have a great Christmas. And then they ask Scrooge to eat Christmas with them. [01:41:50] Speaker B: Right. [01:41:51] Speaker A: And then, of course, Scrooge becomes more of a part of the family, because that's. The story is that he becomes more of a second father to Tiny Tim. [01:41:57] Speaker B: Right. [01:41:57] Speaker A: Who. I think Tiny Tim in this version is, like, even though there's barely anything there, he's barely there in this. In a story where he's already pretty small. [01:42:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:42:06] Speaker A: But I think he's more important than other adaptations. And so, like, it ultimately becomes a version of the story where, like, I would understand if you enjoyed this version, but if you told me. If you told me this was your favorite version of the story, I would. I would have a fun conversation. I'd be like, explain why is this your favorite version? Because I think there's, Again, this is the most overdone story that is, like, Christmas story that has been adapted to so many different, like, yeah. Television episodes. There's a Looney Tunes Christmas Carol. [01:42:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:42:39] Speaker A: It's, like, straight up to, like. [01:42:40] Speaker B: And, yeah. [01:42:40] Speaker A: It's special. And, like, every. [01:42:42] Speaker B: And this version just kind of marks, like, how spectacular can we make Christmas Carol? If I had a. [01:42:49] Speaker A: If I took a shot for every sitcom that probably had a Christmas Carol episode. [01:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:42:55] Speaker A: I'd be dead. Like, it would. There is. It is. It is a story that we all know will to wear well to. Well. Yeah. I'm not just trying to think. I Was like saying sitcoms. And then my brain was trying to think of all the sitcoms I would have seen that would have done it. But we're all too aware of the story, especially as Americans and when it comes to like Christmas stories and whatnot. And it is like, it's such a classical, like, you know, is now at a point where I feel like it is not enough now to just make a film that is just a Christmas Carol and then be like, money, you gonna go see it? Yeah, it's like nowadays, especially nowadays where it's like, I mean, again, if anything, I'm glad a Spirited was decided to just be streaming only because I feel like that would have been a full blown bomb. Because at that point it's like, yeah, who is. You are now gonna be asking people to spend $20 on a story that at this point has been beaten into. Most Christmas lovers heads to the point where they probably have their top three favorite adaptations of this. [01:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:06] Speaker A: So you really have to do something, which is why I understand the, and understand the excitement around the Eggers version that could really mix it up a bit where it's like, you know, a new version could just be. Why don't we just make it a little bit spookier, like actually commit to the spooky narrative nature of that. [01:44:26] Speaker B: Well, like he is also somebody who could commit to the, the desolate state of impoverished England of the time. You know, he could really dig into that. I just, I just hope he doesn't lose the silver lining of it. [01:44:46] Speaker A: You know, it'll be interesting. Maybe Ty west will have Johnny Depp do it in a funny accent. That'll be enough. [01:44:53] Speaker B: Oh, you mean Johnny Depp's voice. He already speaks in a funny accent. [01:45:00] Speaker A: And he was so smug when he said that. It was so funny. Oh, man. I mean, yeah, I mean that's Christmas Carol, Polar Express, Beowulf, that's. I mean the Zemecka CGI trilogy is one of those things where I think will be kind of like this. These footprints in the, you know, in the history of filmmaking where it's like understandable why in this five year span and if you even had moms, Mars needs moms in like the first like decade, that decade of why, you know, you were like. Zemeckis tried to use these to kind of stand out in a unique way and really show people that, you know, animation, computer generated imagery and animation can have a, like have a friendship and a relationship that can do something like this consistently. And I think a lot of that Conversation has led to studios taking note of that, but also using that in smaller bites. [01:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:00] Speaker A: Focusing on specific types of that tech. Which is why, I mean, a lot of that you see in Zemeckis is, I think, a trailblazer. And a lot of that tech, even before these movies. But it's pretty clear as to why when we talk about that tech and if we talk about Zemeckis with that tech, it is kind of that, like, yeah, Zemeckis did really help in this conversation, but these movies have not aged perfectly. [01:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It's also, I mean, an example of, I think, just getting kind of lost in a fixation on the tech a little bit. [01:46:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And it's a fixation that he doesn't even fully let go of because literally two years ago, there was. He got really into doing the aging with here. [01:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:52] Speaker A: A film that, if I could find a way to force Andy to watch it, maybe I'll try that. But that also means I have to watch it. But that was. That was his, like, right. Like post Pinocchio, his first film after Pinocchio. [01:47:06] Speaker B: It wasn't that last year. [01:47:07] Speaker A: I thought it was two years ago, but it was like a film where, you know, you are in one spot in America for millions of years. And so it kind of cuts from, like, you know, the age of dinosaurs, cavemen, to the 1700s, 1800s. And then you follow, you know, a family's life tied to this one specific house. And it has Tom Hanks, Robin Wright, Paul Bettany. [01:47:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it came out a year ago. It was a year ago November of last year. [01:47:36] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Well, it felt like two years ago, actually. I think I probably have a text to this. I probably asked you, do you want to go see this together? Out of morbid curiosity? And you went, no. Yeah, because of course I didn't see it. And I listened to people talk about seeing it, and I heard one podcast talk about it and almost lose their minds talking about it. And I'm like, maybe when it's free, which I think it might be on Netflix and stuff now still. But, yeah, it is. Zemeckis and CGI is a very interesting relationship that I think has led to, you know, my opinion, a mediocre, fine adaptation of A Christmas Carol. An understandable but very dated and flawed Christmas. Modern Christmas classic. [01:48:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:26] Speaker A: And a take on a Norse mythology, like a mythological Norse creed, like, hero that I feel like is, you know, has more to offer than you probably would expect out of the gate from, like, its trailers and Its poster. [01:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:40] Speaker A: And the era it came out of. So it means again, I got. I came out of it with a surprise at a Beowulf. [01:48:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:49] Speaker A: Knowing that I still kind of enjoy polar expression extent and got pretty. I got at least three or four naps while watching A Christmas Carol. So it was small naps. I just know that when I was watching A Christmas Carol, when we got to Christmas Past, I felt like I blinked and we were already at Christmas yet to Come. And so I went back to Christmas Past, watched that whole shebang. [01:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:49:13] Speaker A: And then when I got the Christmas present, I blinked and went to Christmas yet to Come. And so I had to go back to Christmas Present and to rewatch. I basically watched it in YouTube clips. And then I went the old ways. I went, oh, man, this movie feels longer than Polar Express and it's technically 30 minutes. But yeah, this is a Mecha CGI trilogy. Part one of our happy Holidays Christmas duology. I guess, because our final trilogy is, you know, filled with, you know, sheer Christmas, you know, Christmas good tidings as well as blood, gore and good old slasher goodness. [01:49:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:00] Speaker A: To really. To really mix it up. So, you know, Andy wasn't worried that I was gonna try and pairs a Mecha CGI trilogy with a free cool on Santa Claus's season two. [01:50:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:12] Speaker A: Which will never do. Yeah, we'll never do. I thought it would be fun that we end the season off with something that is quite uncommon. And we dabbled in this about a few years back with the Black Christmas trilogy, talking about three different versions of the same narrative. But this time we are talking about a Christmas. A horror Christmas franchise that, surprisingly this was not intentional. Does have a new remake coming out this Christmas season, which is being pushed by the studios that brought you Terrifier. [01:50:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:50:50] Speaker A: Which is really shows we've gone from this series being known as like, almost bringing the government in on, you know, just the film industry because of just how heinous it is that we have a horror slasher film to now getting to a point where Terrifier is being used to sell a remake of this after terrifier 3 was an absolute hit. [01:51:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:15] Speaker A: Last year, which is also a Christmas slasher. [01:51:19] Speaker B: Wild. [01:51:19] Speaker A: But to finish out the year, we have a special guest with us that is going to be talking about the Silent Night Deadly Night trilogy, which is 1984. Silent Night, Deadly Night, believe 1987 or 88. Silent Night, Deadly Night part two. And then we have Silent Night, Deadly Night three. Better watch out. [01:51:44] Speaker B: Right. [01:51:44] Speaker A: Or part three better watch out yeah. [01:51:47] Speaker B: 84. 87. 89. [01:51:48] Speaker A: 89. Yeah. [01:51:51] Speaker B: Better watch out. [01:51:52] Speaker A: If you're a slasher hound, you probably are like. But wait a minute, Wait. There's five films in the original series and there is, but the thing is, is that the first three films follow loosely, follow a continuous story. [01:52:06] Speaker B: Yeah. They're all focused around the Chapman brothers. [01:52:10] Speaker A: The Chapman brothers, yeah. It's focused. Basically, the original film, in case you don't know, Deadly Night was basically an early 80s slasher about a boy who was traumatized on Christmas. And when that trauma becomes too much to bear for him, when he becomes 18, he dons a Santa outfit and goes on a rampage. A film that at the time was deemed heinous and was going to rot the. You know, rot society and ultimately almost got the government involved. Despite the fact that it is pretty much a Halloween knockoff. We will definitely get into it when we talk about it, but we're not doing it alone. Like I said, we have a first timer guest on the Odd Trilogies podcast that I'm super excited to have on the show, and I'll have Andy introduce him for you. [01:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah. We will be joined by ODD Trilogy's rookie and good friend, Mitch Ringenberg, who is active writer over at Midwest Film Journal. He's our third or fourth MFJ contributor that we have harvested onto ODD Trilogies because it's Evan. Yeah. Evan Dawsey, Nick Rogers, Sam Watermeyer. Yeah. Matt Hurt has also written for mfj, but that's not his primary outlet. Yeah. So we're happy to have Mitch back on. Mitch is a big, huge horror hound. Loves, like, grisly grindhouse. He shit from the 80s, so. And I'm pretty sure he's seen all of these movies multiple times, but. So he'll be an asset as we explore this. [01:53:55] Speaker A: I'm excited to see if he has seen all of them because my goal by the time we get to that episode is to watch all of them. [01:54:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:02] Speaker A: Not the remakes. If. If Adam. If Adam persists. If Adam bats his eyes at me and really wants to watch at least the first remake, because the second remake, I believe, is not out yet, or at least if it came out around this time, it's limited release. [01:54:19] Speaker B: Right. [01:54:20] Speaker A: But I. My goal is to get at least all the original series in because it would be fun to hear Mitch's take on 4 and 5. Because everything I know about 4 and 5 is that it's batshit. [01:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:54:34] Speaker A: And it's technically in the same universe, but is dealing with vastly, vastly different topics. But you haven't watched any of them. [01:54:44] Speaker B: I've not seen. [01:54:45] Speaker A: Okay. As of our recording this, I have watched the first two. And man, oh, man, the second film is iconic. Notorious. I will say for specific things, there is a very early Internet brain rot that came out of the second film. And let me tell you what, that doesn't even hold the candle to what the fucking film actually was. Losing my mind. I can't. I cannot wait to hear your thoughts on it. I'm excited to talk to Mitch about it as well, especially when not seen 3 yet. I do know what the premise of 3 is, and 3 is fucking batshit. It is a. It is a series that is insane to have as many films as it has, but also watching them, it is kind of funny to be like, I kind of see why it doesn't have more than this so far. But yeah, so that will be right after Christmas, December 27th. So tune in on December 27th when we team up with Mitch to discuss our final trilogy of the year. Silent Night. Deadly Night trilogy. But as always, I'm Logan Sowash. [01:55:49] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:55:50] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.