Episode 111: The TRON Trilogy

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:20] Speaker B: Welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. [00:00:22] Speaker A: I'm Logan, so Wash. And I'm Rinzler. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Sorry, I'm Andy, that's Andy Carr. And today on our Trilogies with Logan and Andy, we discuss trios tied by either cast and crew thematic elements or even just numerical order. And today we are discussing the Tron trilogy. In case you don't know what that is, that is 1982's Tron, 2010's Tron Legacy, and 2025's Tron Ares. Yes, that is true. We are taking a slot out of a possible spooky trilogy to talk about Tron. And there's reasons to that all around. We'll get to it more when we get to Legacy because Legacy is a very special film to me personally. But it's also the fact that the fact that we're even having this episode is kind of insane. Because Tron as a franchise is the type of franchise that shouldn't be a franchise. Let's put is something that has basically been the little engine that could its entire run as a franchise from every single installment, from every single spin off video game. I think video games probably only big profitable thing in terms of like the original arcade games that were spawned from the original film. But from video games to maybe comics to television series to cartoons, like, Tron is the franchise that could. And God damn it, it won't stop trying. And while there's a part of me that really admires that, it is also just. [00:01:55] Speaker A: It is a little bit like, why guys? [00:01:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it comes to that, that false definition of insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And thankfully these are not. While there are very much similarities through all three of these films, narratively, it's not basically doing the first film. Again, it is very much watching a franchise try to appeal to an audience that I don't think it fully understands what it wants. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, overall it's kind of a rare. The rare franchise that doesn't seem to like really have an audience. Like obviously there are. There are die hard fans of Tron. Yes, we see you and acknowledge you. [00:02:43] Speaker B: I mean, I. [00:02:44] Speaker A: All seven of you. But like, you know, there's never been, you know, Tron is kind of a franchise in spite of itself. Yeah, you know, none of. Not that none of the films have been successful, but they've never really taken root culturally. [00:03:00] Speaker B: No, it is. I mean, culturally it's hilarious to say that because it has in a technical sense, in terms of what it attempted to do in the original film and also its incorporation of certain tech in the second film. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:13] Speaker B: And we'll see. See if Aries has anything that it does to kind of like in whether it's improve or influence future blockbusters that aren't tied to a superhero or actual franchises that are more than just three films and spin off a few spin offs. Like it is a franchise that I think when Andy. Because Andy and I watched the first Tron together, Andy had never seen the original Tron. I had seen it a few times for the longest time. That was a good. I put it on the background and I go to bed movie when I was in high school. And you know, while we were watching it, I think there's this like I think I said to you, I think you have to have incredible resolve and patience to be a Tron fan from the very beginning. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:06] Speaker B: And to never lose hope. Because it is a solid nearly three decades between the original film and Legacy. And then it's a 15 year gap between legacy and Ares. And again, Disney tried after Legacy to get a little bit more content media out there. [00:04:28] Speaker A: Media. Yeah. And it. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And it led to nothing. It led to it really being. And there's other factors involved in that. We will get to that. But with the original Tron, in case you don't know, because this is also a very fascinating thing when I talk to people about Tron. When we were watching the original Tron, my roommate and friend Ray was coming back from work. While we were all watching it, it was Adam, friend of the pod. Andy and I and Ray sat down and Ray went. I had no idea this was a Disney movie. Tron is a Disney franchise. Tron is hilariously still a Disney franchise. This is not a franchise that they've tried to pawn off to other companies. This is not a franchise that it's. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Not a franchise they bought up after no Hilarious. Always been Disney. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Hilariously enough. The process of Tron was basically Steven Lisberger, I believe it's not listenberger, it's Liz Burger. [00:05:22] Speaker A: I had. [00:05:22] Speaker B: But he had an idea that about yout know, watching people play Pong and playing Pong himself and wondering what would be inside the screen in terms of a computer sense. And at the late 70s having this thought in late 70s, early 80s sci fi like that has always kind of existed in one way, shape or form in other decades before computers have been how they are now. But it's just fascinating that, you know, this idea is popping in his head and they initially want it to be an animated film fully Animated and then decided, probably because of cost, that it would probably be easier if they do animation hybrid with live action. But that animation is using something that, you know, maybe people use in the future. We don't know. Who knows with the future of filmmaking called cgi, computer generated imagery and AKA cheating. Yeah, AKA cheating, according to the academy at the time. But so they pitch. They make like a little promo of what Tron would look like. Pitched it to a bunch of studios, and those studios said, we're good, thank you. But the one studio that didn't say that was, of course, Walt Disney Studios. They wanted it. So in 1982, with a budget of $17 million, the world gets introduced to Tron in the late summer. And it is one of the most unique films I think I have seen in my life, mainly because of just how it is brimming with creativity and imagination at the same time. Also clearly has no idea what it wants to fully be. [00:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Like, it's. [00:07:14] Speaker A: It's all over the place in almost every level, pretty much. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Most of the critics I think, at the time said, like, the film looked stunning at the time. Which, again, it's. [00:07:26] Speaker A: I mean, to a degree. [00:07:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:28] Speaker A: If you're sitting in a Theater in 1982, it would be stunning to see something like this. If for no other reason, then nothing looks like this. Because even though still to this day, nothing really looks like Tron. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:40] Speaker A: It is still stunning. Not necessarily beautiful all the time, but stunning. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And it also is like this weird thing. It's not even just the visuals. It's unique in terms of how its narrative. [00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Is paced in such a weird way. The editing clearly has the idea that they're trying to figure out how to use what they can get in the grid versus what they have to do in the real world to kind of fill out that time. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Because clearly that's most the money is going to the grid, the digital scape. And there's. There's literally. There was one edit that has always been in my brain forever where it just literally goes from hard cut to black to a fade into Jeff Bridges that just says in like, cursive. Meanwhile, in the real world. And Andy never seen this film. He laughed out loud when he saw that. And I was like, yep, that is a wild transition. And it is like the real. That is like the introduction to Kevin Flynn that we get to the series. Which, again, another thing about Tron that you should be aware of. If you're listening to this and you're like, you know what I'VE never seen a Tron movie. I've always wondered what Tron is. Is it like a. Is it a state of mind? Is it a person? Is it the world they're in? If it was the world they're in, that would make more sense than what it ultimately is. Because Tron. Tron is hilariously a secondary character in his own film. He is basically the hero of the Grid, who, quote unquote, fights for the users. He is a program made by Kevin Flynn's, you know, ex co worker kind of friend, Alan Bradley. He's played by Bruce Boxleitner, who also plays Tron, does double duty there and. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Which is kind of the. The standard procedure in the movie is the. The in game characters are played by the actors who are their users, basically, or creators. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And ultimately like he basically. Alan creates a security program. He calls it Tron. They never. They never say what Tron is. If it's supposed to be like an acronym, doesn't matter. Yeah, Tron sounds like a cool name. Alan Bradley is dating this woman, I believe, named Laurie, who is played by Cindy Morgan, who I think most people would probably know from like Caddyshack at the time. And she basically is working on this wild tech in a company. In a company that is like popular because of arcade games. They also have a department that is built to advances in technology that are insane. The amount of money you'd be putting into. And it is successful. It's successful in a way that is like crazy how successful and easy it is. And it's also fucking funny how every film after this treats it as crazy as it is. Except for the original film. Like the original film, it's like, ah, success. [00:10:45] Speaker A: Like we've teleported an orange particle beam technology to transmit real life forms into digital spaces like that. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Yes. It's insane how this kind of builds into. It builds into this weird world of a computer, like a corporate company that is mainly in electronics, just diving into everything. It's diving into like Department of like, Defense. It's also doing AI technology in the early 80s because the main villain of the film is MCP, the Master Control Program, which is this giant face on a red wall that is just like most of the time you see like a digiscreen kind of interior version of the mcp, which is wild. But it basically is implied that the MCP was a AI program built for a chess video game. And then in some way shape or form evolved from that said game into now being this just yo. Almost dictator. Like this dictatorship in the grid that is going to do whatever it takes to basically get all the launch codes to like nukes and like it's smart enough to like take over other countries defense systems. And like all this is being said in a film in a very matter of fact way. There's very little emotion kind of attached to these decisions which. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Which makes it kind of hard to absorb some of it because there doesn't feel like there's any stakes. They're talking about crazy wild international shit and like a lot like there's no drama to it. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah, the funniest and what's funny too is like the whole scene where the MCP is introducing this to Dillinger, who is like, he's our secondary antagonist. John Dillinger, who basically is this guy who runs encom who we find out basically only ran. Only runs ENCOM because he stole the. He basically stole the ideas for their top selling games from Kevin Flynn, played by Jeff Bridges. Yeah, so if you see Jeff Bridges and all the Tron stuff, he's Kevin Flynn. He is like the most. He's the biggest actor in this movie. He's the biggest actor to really come out of this technically. [00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:16] Speaker B: And he ultimately like the whole movie is hilariously. While the MCP is basically threatening Dillinger with bringing the Cold War into World War Three in the early 80s and realizing, oh shit, we fucked up, we gave this AI program too much space. Kevin Flynn's whole thing is that he just wants proof that Dillinger stole from him. He has no idea that the MCP has gotten this intense. He has no idea what ENCOM is currently like, except for the fact that Alan and Laurie have told him that like all these programs are getting basically locked out of their access due to mcp. It's like all these hackers and programmers a part of ENCOM are just now not being able to do anything. And so what they do is they break into ENCOM through this big old giant orange door that is referenced in Tron Legacy. Oh yeah, they both, I think they both, both Kevin and his son Sam and Legacy go big door or in some way, shape or form because it's a giant door. They go in, Kevin goes into Laurie's kind of office to basically hack into ENCOM database to try to get the information. He starts talking to the Master Control Program, who can tell it's Flynn, right? And since he's sitting in front of the laser particle or the particle cannon particle laser or whatever, the MCP just digitizes Kevin Flynn and pulls him into the grid. And then this Film becomes a narrative about Kevin trying to get out of the grid because he is a human being. He is a user in a world of programs. And basically has to have the help of Tron and Yori, who is Lori's program and Tron is Alan's program. And they basically have to team up to get a message to Alan as well as stop the master control program. And that's the plot. Tron, in terms of. When you write down the synopsis, it is a 90 minute film where you can probably get the entire plot in two sentences, maybe three. But it's also a 90 minute film that is really trying to make you think it's actually two hours. It is a film that is like. I am always shocked when I look at the runtime for this movie. Because in my opinion, both Legacy and even Ares feel closer to 90 minutes as two hour films than Tron feels like 90 minutes at actually 90 minutes. [00:15:55] Speaker A: This is absolutely the slowest of. [00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's also clearly because it's like there is the action sequences that are in this movie. There are action sequences, of course, but like they are so much a spectacle show. There's not real action and the real action that's there is so goofy. It's so goofy in a way that is like. It's fun in a swashbuckling way, I guess. But it is like how the computer, like the. The grid itself feels like a. You know, it's felt like it's being oppressed by the MCP and that programs are dying left and right in the games. Because apparently, even though the Internet is not a thing in the early 80s in the way that it is now, it is like it is implying that the grid is also attached to every arcade game that Incom has ever made. [00:16:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:48] Speaker B: It very much shows how this is a film made by people that loves the idea of what is inside of a computer without fully trying to worry about the minutiae and the logistics of how that would be. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Well, audiences of the time would have no concept of. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Unless you're just like a computer engineer at that time. [00:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah. They can only conceive the fact that Kevin Flynn is clearly cool because he owns an arcade, he's good at video games, and he wears a kimono when he hacks. So he lives at his own arcade, which God has to make him cool. He is. He very much like the film itself is like. It makes sense as to where we are now with these. With both Legacy and Aries, because you can see this film being for People being teenagers or maybe in their early 20s, going into 82, seeing this movie and maybe wanting to do films but not knowing exactly if what filmmaking at that time is doing is really what they want to do. And then seeing Tron and then being like, that's it. I want to do that. I want to take whatever they're doing with computers and I actually want to be in effects, but in the mate. Like, it's why like when I think the first time I had ever really heard of Tron would be in like the Pixar documentary that talks about. I believe John Lasseter at one point talks about how big Tron was to him and how other Pixar animators talked about how Tron just really changed the game. [00:18:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:20] Speaker B: And like how you see any documentary about CGI and, you know, the evolution of effects in film over the decades. This film has to be discussed because this film is doing something that a lot of films did not do at that time and was, you know, monumental and also has unfortunately aged like milk in most of those places. Because that's what. That just is what happens. Yeah, they didn't really understand. And why would you. Because I think we. We even have creators today that have the same difficulty that when you. We see it in Legacy too, that when you pioneer something that is really cool, that you is not perfect, but like, is really fascinating. Probably in the next 10, two to three years, it'll already be improved upon three times, four times, five times more. Yeah, like, it is, it is the. [00:19:10] Speaker A: Curse of the pioneer. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean we'll talk about with Legacy, because one of his main characters is built upon this really cool idea of how to have one actor play two separate characters in the same scene with modern technology. And then you literally cut to five years later when you're using D Age, Michael Douglas and Ant man, and it's like a thousand times better because that's just how effects on computers, that's how it works. That is how like, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, in 82, you are not seeing people be like, yeah, Tron looks great, but Blade Runner is gonna age better effects wise. Like no one's saying that at that time. So it's like. Which is why we have such an amassive amounts of films in the 80s, in the 90s, in the 2000s, for the last several decades, just like going, well fuck it, this is big for 96, let's use this technology. And then you get like lost in space in the 90s you get, like, all these crazy ideas in those decades that are just like, oh, you know, Tron did this, Star wars did this. Why don't we do it? Oh, Jurassic park did it like this. We can definitely do that, too. Like, it is something that, you know, it. We're not blaming Tron for any of the bad movies that use those kind of ideas, but it is, like, it's not. It's no surprise that the effects have a bigger Legacy pun intended than the actual film itself. Like, I will be completely honest that my. My love in some way, shape or form of Tron as a franchise, because I am a fan, but, like, I am not a rabid fan. It's. I. Again, if you are a rabid fan of Tron, I literally am. I'm so impressed with you. I'm glad that you have the patience in the world to wait for another Tron film in the next 15 years. But I. It's one of those things where, like, I didn't get into Tron or wasn't interested in Tron until I played Kingdom Hearts 2. Because in Kingdom Hearts 2, Disney let square Square Enix use the Tron brand in that game as a world. And so, like, that was, as a kid, the first introduction to me being like, wait, Tron is a Disney thing? [00:21:33] Speaker A: And that was well before Legacy. [00:21:35] Speaker B: That was like, 2005, 2006. Yeah. So that clearly was a time where they were, like, probably thinking, maybe we can try to test the waters to see if, like, people are interested. And what's so funny is I think most people our age that maybe had that same experience as me, they were like, oh, I love, you know, hanging out with Tron and Kingdom Hearts too. Like, genuinely. Because, like, they got the actor back from the original Tron to play Bruce Box Nightner. And like, Tron is like, a play, is like one of your party members in that game. And it's like, the world, this music, it's like, oh, my gosh. There's like, this retro vibe to it. Like, I've. You know what? I don't know if I can even watch the original Tron. I want to watch the original Tron. Let me give it a try. And then, like, I think a year or two later, it was on cable and I couldn't finish it. Like, it just, like, genuinely. It was one of those movies, like, this is what Kingdom Hearts 2 based off this. Like, and it's like, oh, okay. So I guess if you make a sequel to Tron or if you want to build upon Tron, what you do is you take the concept. You take, like, the really cool idea of, like, the design of the grid, and you just make it less convoluted. You make it easier to understand, at least in a narrative sense. Make it easier to be engaged with. And ultimately it sounds like a bad thing, but really make it maybe a bit more cliche. Like, give it a bit more of something that people can latch on to. [00:23:04] Speaker A: And go, yeah, convention. [00:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little more accessible through that trope I've seen. Like, it's like that kind of thing. Tron's got tropes. Tron's got characters that you clearly understand where they're coming from as well as, like, you know. Yeah, there's like, an old sage priest type and Tron, there's, like, a. Like, a young, up and coming program that really believes in the beauty of the users as a God. Like, the users are considered, like, a godlike force in the grid because, of course, they're built by their. Like, they're created by the users. And you have Tron having these, like, as a hero, have these conversations with Kevin about, like, you know, is it normal to just, like, not know what you're doing? And you just kind of make it up on the spot and it's like, I hate to tell you this, but that's basically the user. And, like, you're having these, like, fun. Like, fun, ish kind of conversations in between all of this. But, like, ultimately, this is all happening with, like, characters that are, like, wearing felt hockey pads. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:08] Speaker B: And, yeah. [00:24:09] Speaker A: All of their armor and stuff looks like. Yeah. Foam or just fat. Like. Yeah. Craft fabric. [00:24:18] Speaker B: And. Yeah. [00:24:18] Speaker A: It's a very bizarre, like, honestly, the dichotomy of the. The visual effects with the costuming, it's such an interesting blend because the costuming is clearly, like, okay, we spent all our money on the visual effects. How can we assemble costumes for these people Again? [00:24:37] Speaker B: Tron is a film that I adore solely because of the amount of effort every single person involved in this movie. If XY's put into it. The watching them break down, how they do the illumination on the suits is genuinely insane. Makes me go, of course they did it in this most backwards way. They literally had no other way to do it because they're like, well, we did a plate for the body, we did a plate for the face. We did a plate that was black and white because the suits were black and white. But then we had to do an inverted one. Like, they had, like, seven to eight plates of Second, it is like, oh, my gosh. It is like, no wonder this is the type of film I would recommend. Like, yeah, you can get this film on Blu ray, probably on 4K, if you want. Like, I think it probably looks best on dvd because I think the closer you get to, like, the crispness, you start to see the lines between the head and the suit because they're doing so many different. Like just panel after panel after panel. And it just leads to a film that is, yeah, technical marvel for 82, but it's pretty much outclassed a decade later. And, you know, if anything, that film is so important because of who it inspires and leads on to other things. And. Yeah, it's. I guess. Yeah. What is overall? How do you feel about it now that you finally have seen it? Do you think it was like anything kind of surprised you about the movie, or is it like what you kind of expected? [00:26:12] Speaker A: I mean, I think I was most shocked by just the density of the world they were weaving within the computer. I mean, you kind of alluded to it earlier just how many different dynamics are going on. All the political intrigue, the class struggle, the dictatorship, and also this element that the MCP is trying to, you know, breach international systems and things like that. It's like we've got the Cold war element, we've got the internal video game world building element, we've got the games on the grid. It's just like so many things happening in your movie that should probably just be like, oh, I got trapped in a video game, I got to get out. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it really is just like. [00:27:05] Speaker A: It's fascinating, but it's also like, whoa, you're throwing a lot at me here, on top of the insane visual style. [00:27:12] Speaker B: And it's also funny too, how, like, the light cycle and the discourse stuff is literally games. It is not like a narrative element that's kind of like a game. It's literally the movie takes a narrative halt to show off. The disc was not even a disc thing. It is just the. It's the scoop in the ring game. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:27:31] Speaker B: Which is never brought back again. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is like a game you probably played in PE in elementary school with those plastic scoops. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a version of that too, I think, on the arcade game with at least with the scoop. And then like, there's, of course, the light cycle, which is the most iconic, I think, imagery that is like kind of like stood the test of time in terms of the iconography of the light beam and the cycle itself, and how you Win a game like that. The fucking crack in the wall is. Is iconic at this point, which is so fucking silly. But it popped up so many times in different ways since that movie. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:09] Speaker B: And yeah, it's funny how the movie does. As soon as it goes, it goes first kind of 30ish minutes. It's trying to find how to get people into the plot. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:19] Speaker B: Kevin's in the plot. He's now on the grid. Now we're gonna spend some time where Kevin's in prison and has to play the games. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Survives the games, does a light cycle match with Ram and Tron. Tron is able to get a hole open in the light cycle arena to get them out. They leave and then Tron, Ram and Kevin get separated. Tron believes Kevin and Ram died. Ram does die, and then Tron. And then Kevin finds out that since he is a user who is like way too well versed in like understanding what is going on around him. Like, the thing about Kevin that's so fascinating is out of every character in every film we've seen that has ever been involved in the grid that is a user. He's the only character in this entire franchise that is in this world and is not immediately like scared shitless. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah, he's like, he's like really nonchalant about a lot of it. [00:29:17] Speaker B: He looks at a bit wildered. He looks at a bit. He knows it's a bit. He looks at like, you know, the sea. He knows that the sea is the solar sailor. Like, oh, I guess this is an identity discovery. Like it's this fascinating thing where it's almost like the grid. If you are well enough, like if you are in tune with the grid, it opens up your mind in a third eye way that you never thought the digital scape, like, oh, this is what it looks like on my computer screen when it's just text based. Which is a very funny. Like I. You asked that question when we watched the original Tron where it's like, is this all they see on, like the human side of things? Like, is it really, like all crazy shit's happening prompts? Yeah. And yeah, basically it is like, it's so funny how like there's no like visual interpretation on the computer screen of what's happening in the grid other than a text based adventure? To a degree. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:10] Speaker B: And yeah, Tron and Kevin and Yori come together. They make it to the mcp. Sark, who's the main, the secondary antagonist with Dillinger and Sark, is played by the same actor as Dillinger, who is David Warner, who we've talked about in the past, he was in The Ninja Turtles 2 Secret of the Ooze, he's in that movie. So we've talked about one of the films he's in. But he's also known for like Time Bandits, Titanic. Man has a prolific career that's decades spanning. He passed away in 22, but he is. He again sells everyone who's in these cartoonish cardboard felt suits. Everyone is selling as well as anyone can. You can tell in Bridges his performance that he has no idea what he is saying, but he is really, really laying it thick. And it leads the film to basically, they get to the mcp, they kill the mcp, Kevin gets sucked back into the real world and gets the. Basically it all happens in like a 30 seconds to a minute in our real world. He gets the proof he needs, they kick Dillinger out, Kevin becomes the new CEO of encom. And it literally ends on a like, hey guys, we won. You know, wide action, like wide angle helicopter shot pulling back from NCOM tower. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:33] Speaker B: And that's it. That's what. If you are a Tron fan, that is what you get for about 20 years. Like they. The film makes about. I think when I looked at Box Office Mojo for like a breakdown, I think about3.38 to 40 million in the span of a month and a half. Maybe even not even a month and a half. So I believe it was in theaters from late summer up until like mid September. And it was a film that I, yeah, I would say bombed at the. Like, it came out like. I think they, they were people who fell in love with that movie immediately. Because if you are a nerd and you see a movie that is all about cool nerds that are going into the place that you've probably, probably always wanted to go in to see what the computer programs are up to. It's gonna probably be your cup of tea in 82. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:22] Speaker B: But it wasn't enough. Again, even in Disney's weird dark ages of the 80s where like things were just getting thrown at the wall and not really sticking up until Little Mermaid in the late 80s. [00:32:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:32] Speaker B: It just, it really didn't stick. And you know, it was a bummer for fans at that time. And to be honest, it was probably a very. It was a long bummer because there are probably conversations of being like, oh, we'll bring it back. We'll do this. We can try this. And literally the next thing you get of Tron related is like in 2000 2001, when there's like a PC game called Tron 2.0. And then it gets like an Xbox version, which is like a first person shooter with Tron aesthetics. And basically is doing what Legacy will ultimately do, where that game is basically about Alan Bradley's kid Jet Bradley getting sucked into the game to save his dad from a virus. And so not a lot of Tron for a solid 15 years. And then there are conversations after Kingdom Hearts 2. I think there's like an. I think Disney probably thought like, you know, we give that to that company. Is there someone out there that really wants to make this work? And they find a guy who's in the visual effects industry who has been working for a while and has never directed a film, but is a fan of Tron and is interested in doing Tron. And they're like, okay, well, like. But what's it gonna look like? Cuz like again, the visual language of Tron is just stuck in 82. You can technically say that. Oh, what about the game in 2000? With the game in 2000, it's like it's a. A video game in 2000. It's a first person. You're not going to take that as an inspiration. You got to have it be. How do you take the 82 and evolve it in a way where it looks cool but also makes sense and also feels like it make it is just like it's logical, it's sleek, it's very fun to look at, even if it's not overly flashy. Because I think it's probably clear that Tron is so colorful visually that he probably should tone that down a bit. There's too many colors on the screen at once. And as someone who loves color, I have to admit there's too much color in certain shots. That fucking movie. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So that there's some visual hierarchy issues in. [00:34:42] Speaker B: So director Joseph Kaczynski on his first film ever, gets attached to Tron, proves to Disney that he has what it takes to do it takes a script that was already kind of built out that and makes basically makes a test footage. If I remember which we watched after we watched the original trial, that becomes like the teaser trailer for Tron Legacy and basically is like, we are now at a point in Disney's career where Disney now is done with Pirates of the Caribbean. At the time there, I think at the time they're working on pirates of Caribbean 4. They realize, oh shit, I don't know how much more we can milk Pirates of the Caribbean. We kind of want a big live action franchise we can just pump money into that could bring people to the theater. What can we do? And they try a very, you know, very, you know, variety of things which we will talk about because two of the other things they try ultimately leads to the hiatus of Tron. But they decide Tron. And so Kaczynski, this, the writers, this new team come together to build out a Tron sequel with Jeff Bridges attached. Bruce Brock's Leitner is back as Alan. Kevin Flynn's there new cast, new grid. And it is genuinely because I think it's something that I don't even think Andy knows about me. If there is a film in the 21st century that I would probably say I have seen nearly a hundred times or feel like I've seen nearly a hundred times, it's probably this movie. [00:36:20] Speaker A: Wow. [00:36:20] Speaker B: I. Yeah, when I saw Legacy in theaters the first time, it shook me to my fucking core in a way that I was like, this movie is wild. I don't like. And again, a lot of it is because it's like perfect Storm aspect. You have a director who's in visual effects who has clearly understood what makes the original film work, but knows how to improve upon it in every single way with his team, and he does. You have a cast who's willing to come back, but they're also willing not to just alienate people who probably watched the original film and was like, this sounds like gobbledygook. I don't understand what any of the things they're saying here. Why is that guy named Crom, he works at a bank. I don't want to fucking hear about it. They. They trim down the fat and basically just do a leg. It's called Legacy, but it is a Legacy sequel pseudo soft reboot that at the time wasn't as popular as it is now, and also makes probably one of the best decisions any Disney film has made probably in the last 21st, in the last two decades. They add Daft Punk to the film. As composers of the score and soundtrack, and as a Daft Punk fan for pretty much mostly my entire life, that definitely got me invested in wanting to go see Tron. I listened to the soundtrack early. Specific tracks they had released several, like thousands of times, it feels like, but hundreds of times probably by the time Legacy came out, like, de resed, I've listened to, I think at least a thousand times. D res is an E. It's. It's also easy because it's like less than two minutes, but, like, that track it just, like, ingrained in my brain. But you have, like. Everything feels like the stars aligned in this way that, like, Tron is now going to be cool. And you should go see it because it's a. This is what Disney wants to be their next big tent pole. And I saw it, lost my mind. It's just like, really how much more engaged I was. A thousand times more engaged than anything else tron related, plus Kingdom Hearts 2 that I never experienced before then. And I will also admit that the movie is far from perfect. I will say that as someone who thinks this movie is a 10 out of 10 for me, as a love, as like a. As a passion, subjective love. [00:38:45] Speaker A: Sure, sure. [00:38:46] Speaker B: But I'm also very well aware that the film's plot is very bare bones and is pretty much doing the same thing the first Tron does better, but it's still the same thing. They even do same beats by beats. The effects that I was talking about earlier, which is basically De Aging Jeff Bridges to play the antagonist as well as one of the main heroes with Clue as the antagonist, who is introduced in the original Tron for one scene, but is basically a program that is striving for perfection because of Kevin Flynn and ultimately becomes a dictator in and of itself to strive for perfection. But like, that de Aging. I remember it feeling so fucking wild to see in theaters at the time. And now every time I watch it now, I go, it's not dog shit, but I can't not notice it. Yeah, it is, it is. [00:39:40] Speaker A: It's. There's a few shots where it's like. Had a little too much faith in that, didn't you? [00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's like. It's funny too, because now watching it, there is this energy of. It's like, oh, in the beginning, they're trying to hide his face so well because we're never gonna really see young Kevin Flynn in cg. We'll see him in profile shots, but in the dark. And then they just do the full money shot. And it's like, okay, I think that maybe you could have found a way to get around that. [00:40:08] Speaker A: Didn't need. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Didn't need to fully do that. And, like, it gets better when you get into the grid itself, because at least with the way they light it and how the grid looks, his very plasticky, very CGI face, everything else builds into it. [00:40:23] Speaker A: Smooth. [00:40:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Shiny smooth. Very bright, very white. A lot of. Pretty much a lot of the programs have, like, a very bleached kind of look to them. [00:40:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:32] Speaker B: And, yeah. And I also admit that, like, you know, Sam, played by Garrett Hedlund, who I think is a very talented actor, but I also think is very talented in a very limited sense. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Well, I think we talked about. I think. I can't remember which episode it was, but we talked recently about kind of actors who were kind of thrust into the leading man in Hollywood. And maybe, you know, they're talented, but maybe that's just not what they were meant to do. And I think Gary Headlund is another one of those. [00:41:08] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:41:09] Speaker A: The 2010s, kind of the. The young, up and coming Hollywood wanted him to be a leading man. And his more interesting stuff has been. Not that. [00:41:19] Speaker B: Yeah, like, genuinely. I literally rewatched it last night before the podcast with Rey, and I literally, like, I think at a certain point I noticed that Ray was looking at him and being like, I wonder who this person is? And I'm like, yeah, he's one of those actors that, like, he's been in Coen Brothers films. He's currently on a. He's on fucking Tulsa King. So he's like on. He's on like a God. His name escapes me, but we've talked about his films. You know who I'm talking about? [00:41:47] Speaker A: Taylor Sheridan. [00:41:48] Speaker B: Yeah, he's on a Sheridan show. And he's. You know, he was on Four Brothers in the early 2000s, which there was like a cult class element to that. He has shown that he is a good actor, but he was basically. I was like, yeah, like you said, Andy, he was a nice, attractive white guy and in the mid to late 20s. In his mid to late 20s. And they just wanted to try and make him work. And to be fair, I think if we do the tier list, I like him way more than when Jai Courtney was pushed in that position. And I think. And I think Sam Worthington is also in that position of. I think his. His work outside of that is much more interesting. Or like, he at least seems like he's more engaged with stuff outside of like the Avatar clash, the Titan space. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:33] Speaker B: But Garrett Hedlund, I think is in that, in Tron legacy of the three main character actors, which is him, Jeff Bridges and Olivia Wilde playing Cora, who is like a program who is very Disney princess esque without being too, I think, hit in the head, like, hit over the head about it. Like, very much has this energy of like, I want to see the real world because I've read all these books. I love Jules. Like, there's. I love Jules Verne. What's he like? Because like he's. Because Sam implies accidentally that he's met Jules Verne. And out of the three of them, I think Headlund is the weakest. And I also think it's because he's not given a lot. [00:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, he's. The character of Sam Flynn is kind of your prototypical early 2010s, you know, young buck. He's, he's into all the extreme things. He base jumps and he drives a motorcycle and he hacks into the mainframe and he lives in a shipping container. [00:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:37] Speaker A: You know, just all of these things. And beyond that, there's not a whole lot to it other than being kind of Kevin Flynn 2.0. Except. Except he's not even Kevin Flynn because he doesn't know the stuff that Kevin Flynn knows. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah. It's funny how we've, we've evolved in a sense from the kimono wearing, arcade owning computer programmer that lives in his own said arcade to his son being a bass drummer. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Super cool guy. [00:44:05] Speaker B: He's like super cool guy that pranks his own company that he's the main shareholder of and lives with his cute little Boston terrier in a shipping container on the side of like the San Francisco Bridge. I guess it's like a weird spot. And. [00:44:25] Speaker A: Sam Flynn is of the same like developmental ethos in Hollywood as Andrew Garfield, Spider Man. Being a skateboarder and like having a cool haircut and just being like a radical dude. Yeah, same sort of thing. [00:44:44] Speaker B: It's like someone came in is like, guys, I got it. What if Sam Flynn was a hacker that fucks and then goes like, that's what Kevin was like. What do you mean, like Kevin. Kevin was pushed as like. Kevin is implied in the first film as like the coolest programmer from ENCOM you'll ever meet. He's like a maverick type. He's very, very much like his own kind of free thinker. And in his own mind, he's very much just like the. The. The Jobs meets. The Jobs meets was in a sense of like kind of what they're going for without being too much of either side. And yeah, going to Sam. It's like Sam's whole thing is being a phenomenal hacker and programmer who has the angst of like someone from the 90s who wants to be disinterested in everything and doesn't want to be like. He's like. His abandonment issues are so intense. He doesn't want anyone to know that he's interested in anything. So he just. He fucks with everybody. He has no job. But since he's the main shareholder of encom, he basically clearly gets money through the company and is willing to just do whatever he wants. And the company is fine with him doing whatever he wants because he's not trying to. Trying to be a boss. Yeah, he's a bit of a man child without it being full. Chris Pratt, manchild. He is very much right. [00:46:09] Speaker A: And it's. He's like. He's a man child based on, like, what we hear about him at the beginning and his escapades in, you know, raiding the ENCOM building. But then any scene that actually involves him on a, like, social or personal level, he's kind of just default protagonist. He's not overly angsty. He's not. No, you know, a real stick it to the man type. He's not like super sassy. He's just kind of a guy trying to figure out what's going on. [00:46:46] Speaker B: There's clearly an intention, at least from Headland's perspective, at least how he's acting as someone who's severely repressed emotionally, Especially when it comes to anything involving income. Because it involves his father, because he's. It was abandoned by his father. And the only person that believes that his father didn't abandon him is Alan, who basically says, like, your father was basically talking about the Grid as a way to change religion, science, medicine. There's no way he was gonna give all that up just to go to, like, Costa Rica and hang out. Like, he's. Cause his son's like, ah, he's probably dead or chilling in Costa Rica. Like. And it's like this, like. Because there's an interesting moment in the scene where Alan is telling Sam about his pager and why he has his pager, why he always has his pager with him when he brings up his father. The way that Garrett Hedlund is acting with just his eyes about, like, trying to seem disinterested, but, like, hearing his father in a new way of, like, wait, this doesn't happen all the time. So, like, you have a pager from my dad and it pinged. Like, what does that mean? And like. But he can't say that. Cause he's cool. So he just kind of sits there and kind of lets Alan talk. And that leads him on a trail to find his dad's secret lab. Find out that under Flynn's arcade, which is already just the coolest building anyone's ever made in their entire life, there is a fucking computer lab with a particle laser in the basement. Yeah, that leads. That sends Sam to a digital grid that is completely isolated from anything else. It's not the grid from the original Tron. It's a new grid that Kevin built from the ground up with Tron and Clue. He built a clue like 2.0 to help him build the perfect system. And then ultimately has led to the perfect system becoming a hellscape for the program. Beautiful hellscape. Because the film is fucking gorgeous. Like, hilariously, I think Red Letter Media puts it best where it's like. It's wild how the film before the Grid looks like a pseudo early digital David Fincher film. And it's motion blurring and it's lighting and how the camera moves. And then when you get to Legacy's big moneymaker, which is the grid itself, it is insane how the IMAX apparently, how the 3D works. Apparently the 3D. If you saw the film in IMAX 3D at the time, the film didn't become 3D until Sam got put into the grid, which is fucking radish. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:27] Speaker B: And the. The IMAX proportions. Every time the IMAX scenes show up, it is fucking gorgeous. Which, you know, that shows up on the Blu Ray. If you watch it on Disney plus now, they actually do the IMAX runs of any film that was run with IMAX. You can watch the IMAX run on 4K, which is rad as hell. And it's just like, it becomes this world where it's like. It's like Danny DeVito. I get it now. Like. Like, if you have always wanted to be like, Tron could be really cool, but it really isn't. Legacy is the first time where it's like, fuck, I want to live in this world a little bit. I kind of want to dabble in this grid and the. The ideas and the conversations that are having. Because they have similar conversations of Tron, about revolution, religion, who created who, because it becomes this new idea as a sequel, I think is like, enough to keep that idea, is the idea of the ISOs, which are isometric algorithms or isographic algorithms. One of the two, which are basically like, create beings that were built in the grid solely out of nowhere. Like, Kevin built the grid from the ground up and he did not build the ISO. [00:50:38] Speaker A: The grid kind of built them itself. [00:50:41] Speaker B: And he's just like. But I'm basically saying, like, I'm technically the God of this grid and I didn't build that. What the fuck does that mean? And leads this whole kind of divide between Kevin and Clue. Because Clue was told to create a perfect System and the ISOs are in perfect aberration. They're an aberration. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Perfect grid. [00:51:03] Speaker B: A disease in some way, in his mind. And leads to Sam showing up in a world that for the last 30ish years, or 20 years. Because the film. The film starts in 1989 and takes place in 2009 by the time you get to Sam. So it's been like 20 years, Jeff. Kevin Flynn has been stuck in the grid. [00:51:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:25] Speaker B: And is now a Buddhist. And wears no feet. And wears no shoes. Sits on a pillow. And basically the film ends up being like Sam showing up. Sam doing pretty much the highlights of what Kevin had to do when he went to the original film. But way cooler in every way, shape and form. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Everything about the Disc wars is so much more built in, lived in, cooler mechanically than they ever were in the original film. [00:51:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:56] Speaker B: The. The light cycles. The fact that the light cycles are like, how do you build upon that in a sequel? And you go, they have the ability to stop shooting lasers at whatever time they want. They can break. And also levels like these. The idea of, like, the benefit of levels. [00:52:15] Speaker A: And they have dimensions of movement beyond 90 degrees. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. A lot of funny, too, because I think. I don't know we ever have, you know, made jokes about this in the film. But like in. On the Pod. But like, I think we've had times we make fun of how the idea of modernizing certain ideas is to smooth the edges. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:36] Speaker B: And this movie is a smooth edge film. [00:52:39] Speaker A: It's smoothing edges and it's making everything look like glass. [00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:43] Speaker A: And it's, you know, another very modern trend of the. [00:52:46] Speaker B: The fucking light beams being like almost like a goop. It's very glass. [00:52:50] Speaker A: Everything looks very. Yeah. Liquid glassy. Yeah. [00:52:54] Speaker B: It looks like in a forge when it's like you have like the molten metal. [00:52:58] Speaker A: Glass. [00:52:59] Speaker B: Yeah, like glass. Like. Yeah. If you're doing. It's a. [00:53:01] Speaker A: It's a really cool look. [00:53:03] Speaker B: It is, it is. And it's like as all this is happening, even when it's in the real world Daft Punk is putting out. He. It's like fire on the page. It is banger after banger after banger to the point where I had to look at Rey and go, I'm sorry if it happens. I know which track this is and I also know which tracks are not on the original soundtrack release because they. [00:53:26] Speaker A: Were in the movie. But not on the. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So, like, I don't know why they did this. Or at least maybe it was like a limited release. But, like, they Did a collector's edition, I think, on the 10th anniversary of the film. And they released every track. And there were certain tracks that weren't in the original release, which is like. There was like, a theme for Caster at the bar. There's like, certain things like the incom. Like hacking heist and running out. Like, I think that is, like its own unique. Like, they didn't put that on the original tracks. They. They got the highlights, like De Res Son of Flynn, which is like the transition from him as a kid into an adult. The grid with the circuits, like freeways. That's, of course, on the soundtrack. And they got. And then, of course, I would say, in my opinion, one of the best emotional beats in any of the Tron films, which is the. The Kevin explaining why he never went back home while Adagio for Tron plays, which is the scene where you see how Tron, quote, unquote, dies. Spoiler alert. Tron is not dead. He is Rinsler. A character. A character. Again, I would. Again, I will say, as a Tron fan, I never thought of myself as a fucking super fan in any way, shape or form. And I still don't because it's like. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Something where it's like, after Aries now. [00:54:49] Speaker B: Oh, I cannot wait to talk about. I can't wait to talk about how Ares. Just like. But, like, I distinctly remember when I was in the theaters and when Rinzler speaks for the first time and just says user, my brain went, that's Tron's voice. And I had never seen Tron in full, but, like, my brain was like, is that Alan? Is that. Wait, is that Alan? Like, yeah. And then I realized, because if in Rinzler's design, which is something that I think I really like, because I got to give Red Letter Media props, too, because, like, I. They just like that video where they talked about Legacy and tron for the 10th anniversary of Legacy popped up the other day. So I watched that, and Rinsler is basically Tron's Darth Maul. It's basically what if a guy had two laser, like, two discs instead of one is basically what it is. He is basically the. The secondary antagonist to a degree. [00:55:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:43] Speaker B: And in his design, he has a little T at his collarbone, like, with four dots, three to the side, one at the bottom. And that's Tron's logo from the original on his little felt pajamas. So, like, it was a fun, like, little design tool where it's like, clearly no one around Sam is not gonna know that no one else is gonna know that. But as soon as Kevin's a part of the team, every time Tron shows up, Kevin knows 100% that it's Tron. [00:56:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker B: And I kind of love that. And I think it's like, you know. [00:56:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:13] Speaker B: If you're a big Tron fan and you find out that Tron is really relegated to a mind controlled bad guy in this movie, I can understand if you're like, kind of bummed by that. But again, at the same time, like Alan and Tron. Well, it's great to see them in this movie, in some way, shape or form. Jeff Bridges is the most popular part about this, and he was the most interesting aspect, character wise. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:36] Speaker B: So, like, it's no surprise that they're gonna focus more on the father, son. [00:56:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Dynamic of Kevin and Sam, which I will argue, I think is genuinely well done emotionally. Mainly because of Jeff, because, my God, similar to how Jeff Bridges sells shit in that original film that you clearly know, he doesn't understand Jeff Bridges, the way he just looks at Sam at times, Garrett. It is the way he does that is incredible. Like, when he says, I'd give it all up and just to have another day with you is a line that, like, I can say objectively has it fully built up to that emotionally. [00:57:11] Speaker A: No. [00:57:12] Speaker B: But Jeff nails it so hard. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:16] Speaker B: It's like, fuck, man. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Bridges brings a lot to this movie. [00:57:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:22] Speaker A: He just. Yeah. Like you said, there's a lot of character arcs and relationships and moments throughout the movie that are like, okay, I'm glad they're in here. Because at least you're. You're trying for something with these characters. But it's not like a fully formed idea or a fully developed setup to be paid off. But when you have Bridges there and he's speaking with these, like, 40 years of age and weight behind him, you know, he's able to inject it with something to where you're like, okay, well, at least. At least I get to hear him deliver it. [00:57:58] Speaker B: 40 years of age, weight and digital pork. Cause apparently he eats digital food. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, from Jeff as soon as he shows up. Cause again, I think before that, it is fun to be with Sam in a way where it's like, oh, yeah, Sam is enough of a blank slate in a way that I can put myself into his and be like, hell, yeah, life cycles would be kind of cool also, if I knew how to take someone out with a fucking disc, it'd be kind of cool too. Okay, that's cool. And then when Kevin shows up, it's like, oh, yeah, this is the world of Tron. We are getting into it now. Clue is a bad guy. We need to get around that motherfucker. And that guy has everything around him. And it's like, when this is going on, this is something that I'm gonna bring up now because it is something that I feel is a detriment to when we get to Ares. But Legacy, I will always love the fact that the movie takes time to slow down just a smidge just to live in its world. Even if, you know, Korra is not fully. I was a Cole. Cora's not a fully realized character. I think Sam is not fully realized, and I'd even argue Kevin is fully realized more in terms of trying his arc as a father, trying to do for his son what he never could in the 20 years he was gone. But, man, I just really appreciate the effort to put into even the smaller moments as they're all acting amongst each other. I don't see a lot of people talking about the dinner scene where it's like this awkward moment where Kevin's trying to find out, does Sam have kids to Sam, did he graduate from Caltech? Does he have a life? And then ultimately finding out that it's in Kevin sense what he believes is, like, the worst case scenario, which is he dropped out of college. He doesn't work at. Yeah, yeah. And also he has a dog. He doesn't have kids. He doesn't have a wife. He just has a cute little pup and the most adorable dog in the world. But you see and you see again, Jeff Bridges, like you said, like, his face. Every time he asks a question, you can see in his face realizing there's disappointment initially, but then almost that disappointment becomes internal because he realizes, oh, that probably happened because I wasn't there. Well, that probably didn't happen because my parents. He finds out later his parents took in Sam and then they died in the 90s, like, Sam was. Sam basically was 12 when he lost both of his grandparents in the span of, like, a few years. And so, like, Sam has a lot of trauma attached to him, but he's cool and repressed and doesn't really want to talk about it. And so Kevin becomes this, like, avenue to talk about the things that, you know, the regrets that he has and how he wants Sam to want more than just get him back home to get like he wants. He's like. He's like, listen, I understand, y'. [01:00:48] Speaker A: All. [01:00:48] Speaker B: There's things we can never have together. But, like, Know that I'm cherishing every moment we are with each other. And. [01:00:53] Speaker A: Right. [01:00:54] Speaker B: There's more to, like, there's more to this than what's happening right now. When you get out of here, there's the kind of that energy, like, when you get out of here, it cannot be the same thing. And it's not being because at the end of the film, you know, Sam ends up taking over ENCOM and, you know, trying to lay the groundwork in a sense that feels like, oh, we're gonna maybe get another one of these sometime soon, which we'll talk about later. But I mean, yeah, once they get on to like, you know, we have to get to the portal to get out before Clue gets out. Because Clue's whole thing is he wants to go into the real world and perfect planet Earth. [01:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:30] Speaker B: Which leads to one of, I think, the best lines in the movie, which is, what's more imperfect than our own world? I was like, wow, what an understatement. And yet beautifully captured in, like, that fear. Kevin's and Kevin's light in line. But yeah, we get introduced later on to Michael Sheen. We get introduced to the End of Line bar, which has some of the best banging tracks on the album and has a fun action sequence that isn't fantastic. I don't think action sequence is great. It clearly has the energy of like a director. Something here, we need something here. But also, like, we're still trying to figure out how do we use the disc as a weapon of close hand to hand combat, but also how do we balance that between hand to hand combat and throwing it. And also there's sticks now that are lightsabers, basically. And how did that play in Versus, like, disc? And you could see the inklings, like, at the first, like, first time seeing it, I'm like, losing my mind in the theater. But, like, now watching, I'm like, I really love the intention and the intent, but, like, in the terms of the choppiness in a post John Wick world, it's hard not to watch this and be like, hi, I know this movie is not meant to be for its action, but I would love some fucking real sick data disc fights. Yeah, but yeah, and also Daft Punk show up in a rad daff a new grid outfit and then they're in their grid outfit and they're canonically a part of. They're the bar end of line DJs. And Kevin loses his disc in the process of trying to save Sam and Cora. And Kevin's disc is the way that everyone's gonna be able to get into the end to the outside world. So they have to get the disc back. They have to get to the portal. It becomes basically the last hour. It actually does become a race to the finish, but not in a way that feels like they still have time to reveal Korra as an ISO and the kind of the trauma surrounding being the last of her kind. More discussion of the father son dynamic as well as Kevin doing something really interesting that I think, you know, I think Tron has a fun idea of, you know, capturing more if they do more, is the idea that Clue is not necessarily a villain. Without really kind of discussing the fact that he became this because of Kevin's, you know, directive, a naivete towards perfection. [01:04:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:02] Speaker B: Because he basically says, like, I didn't realize what perfection was until I was too late. And then basically implies that perfection to him is his son. It doesn't matter. Like, it's the fact that he has a legacy that lives on past him and he can't be happier. The fact that his son is alive and well and, you know, has the potential to do whatever he wants and also has this fun dynamic of it being like, Clue is technically Kevin's son in a sense. Like a clone son. [01:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, in a way, he's also just. He's. He's Kevin's. I don't know, his reductive side or his worst impulses as a creator. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Mm. It's. It's without. It's like, hilariously, it's supposed to be Kevin with all the logistics and no emotion. And yet Clue shows emotion nearly every single time he's on screen. He's a very angry boy and clearly hates Sam because he's daddy's favorite. [01:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:59] Speaker B: For being a real flesh and blood human. But yeah, the action's good. The effects are phenomenal. Still, I think they've aged exceptionally well in 15 years. The score is one of my favorite scores ever. And like, pacing wise for a two hour film, I feel like it does a good job of being able to balance well enough the emotional stuff, the action, the spectacle, and get to a conclusion that feels earned and also interesting in a way that is like, if we did another one, would you be interested? And I think at the end of Legacy you go, there is enough here that, yeah, you could do something. Because there's this big fucking thing about the fact that when Sam leaves the grid, as Kevin sacrifices himself to save them, a Cora leaves too, who's a complete. She's a program through and Through. So it's the first time now materialized. Yeah. Not only have we gotten the first film being about, you know, the first time anything's been materialized digitally and brought back in full, we now have a program that is 100% born and raised in a sense in the grid, being pulled out and being perfectly fine in the real world. And so it's like, well, what can we do next other than just bringing more programs out? [01:06:20] Speaker A: Right. [01:06:21] Speaker B: And so, you know, Tron Legacy comes out despite my mind being blown at the time and really loving and really grabbing with the film. And a lot of people also gravitate toward, I mean a lot of people. If you talk to most people who are Tron fans, I think now to this day, I think post 2010, it is because of Legacy. It is not. It is 100%. And you could tell maybe because like if they're under the age of 50, they probably were big fans of Legacy. But also it's like if you were a Tron fan when Legacy happened for the next two to three years, you got like a video game, you got television series. It was on Disney xd so no one fucking watched it. But like, yeah, if you wanted to watch it, you were able to get the access to it. It had very interesting ideas. In terms of design, I think you described it best. It looks like the Zima Blue episode of Love, Death and Robots. [01:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Which is the design wise? It does, yeah, man. When they, when Kevin, when Kevin and or Clue shows up on that show in that design, it's wild because Clue is a part of the show. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Right, Right. [01:07:30] Speaker B: Kevin shows up for one episode. But they, Disney really wanted Tron to hit with audiences. And unfortunately, while the film does make a profit, it's about $350 million worldwide. It was 180 million dollar budget and it made about $180 million domestically. Which maybe in your head you're like, oh, well, it basically kind of broke even then, right? And it's like, well that's kind of the problem is if you don't bring in marketing involved in that as well, that basically means it wasn't a bomb, but it wasn't a Pirates of the Caribbean smash hit they wanted. [01:08:06] Speaker A: Right. And it wasn't necessarily profitable enough to guarantee future success. [01:08:12] Speaker B: But even with that in mind, when they released the Blu Ray for Legacy, which is one of the. I was telling Andy when we saw Watch Tron together, it was one of the first Blu Rays I ever gotten that I wanted. When Legacy came like Legacy came on Blu Ray, it came With a short film that's not very good, but it's. It's basically a. A mix of an ARG called Flynn Lives and like new footage, basically trying to build the idea of what futures film would be, which is basically the next day after Legacy, because Legacy all takes place in a day. Sam takes over the company and basically outs every single corporate person a part of it that just wants profit and brings all the old programmers back from the original days. And then basically also implies that in Tron Legacy, there's Cillian Murphy's character, who is John Dillinger's son, Edward Dillinger. He's in one scene, but they put him in that one scene because they wanted to use him for future sequels. [01:09:12] Speaker A: Right. [01:09:13] Speaker B: And so they imply in that next day short that they, you know, Ed was able to stay because he earned his spot there. And so there's already kind of this groundwork that laid. They're like, all right, Tron 3, which I think at one point was called Tron Ascension, is in development. Kaczynski will direct it, but he has to do this little film you might heard of called Oblivion, starring Tom Cruise. So they can't do that yet. And also the guys that wrote Legacy, I think apparently also had to not write the next film. Maybe they did the story, but they had to leave because they had to do Once Upon a Time, the ABC series that ran for like eight seasons. That's the same people that wrote Tron Legacy. And so, like, all this is happening and like, but you know what? Tron has enough of a fan base and everyone seems interested in gay, like, you know, gassed up and ready for another one. We should give it a shot. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Two years after Tron Legacy is, I believe, John Carter, another live action Disney film. That film bombs horrendously. So we're now at a weird spot where Disney's like, okay, this is going to be another one of our possible Pirates of the Caribbean type franchises, John Carter. And it didn't work. It's okay. We're still going to be interested in Tron. We get to 2015. In March of 2015, I believe it said that Tron, Alan Bradley himself, Bruce Boxleitner, said, don't Worry, guys, Tron 3 is still going to happen. [01:10:39] Speaker A: Right. [01:10:39] Speaker B: In May of 2015, it was officially shelved because of the franchise bombing that is the others trying to be like a new franchise. Tomorrowland. [01:10:51] Speaker A: Right. [01:10:53] Speaker B: A film I saw in theaters and I remember being like, ho, Boy George. That is wild. Yeah. George Clooney. And that's there's, oh, my gosh, if we could ever talk about this film on the pod, we'd have too much time. That movie is wild. [01:11:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:09] Speaker B: But when Tomorrowland and basically flops at the box office, Disney goes, okay, our live action output is Marvel and live action remakes, everything else gets shelved. Well, in the process of writing Tron 3, they made a character. Apparently, one of the early scripts, there's a character named Ares, an AI program that is originally bad, that becomes good. They wanted Jared Leto in 2014, apparently. And Jared said in the most, I think Jared Leto way goes, I'm not interested or I don't think it works with my, you know, where I'm at career wise right now. But if you want to make a solo film of this character, I might be interested. And so a year after they asked him, which is about. Was 2015 and like 2016, I believe is like, would you do Tron Aries? He said, yes. And so here we are, nine years, almost nine years later, we have the third and final film of the Tron series. Could be the last Tron film for a while. We have yet to see. But we are discussing now the latest release. And just for full disclosure, I just watched Ares now, 3 hours ago is when I finished it. So it is very fresh in my head. When did you see it? [01:12:26] Speaker A: I saw it a couple days ago. Two days ago. [01:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we're recording this right after Ares. [01:12:34] Speaker A: Basically released, basically opening weekend. [01:12:36] Speaker B: We. We know what the opening weekend is, but we want to, like. The question is, I guess, do we like Aries? Tron Aries. Because the character Aries, Jared Leto, an actor that I would argue too, is genuinely, in terms of a craft, I think Jared Leto is a good actor. But in terms of the amount of shit and controversy that seems to be surround him at all times, I don't know if it's worth that controversy personally. But then again, I guess Disney didn't think otherwise. Yeah, but Andy, how did you feel about Tron Ares? [01:13:17] Speaker A: I mean, it's an interesting movie because it kind of. You don't want your third movie in your franchise that has struggled to be a franchise for its entire existence to like actively remind people in the moment, oh, yeah, this, like, isn't a franchise. It's kind of a movie that doesn't. I don't want to say it doesn't understand. I guess it kind of doesn't understand what's appealing about Tron. The premise itself being like, okay, all of the Grid people, all of the digital characters are coming to the real world. Which, like, obviously is kind of teased at the end of Legacy, but I don't know that that's as interesting a concept as the film thinks it is. And the film doesn't really have a lot to say about that or anything creative it wants to do with. Also, I think, doesn't help that you're. You have no returning characters aside from a cameo by Jeff Bridges, basically. [01:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And. [01:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just. I don't know. It's not a good movie. I think it has. I don't know. I really didn't hate it, but I also had come away not having a whole lot positive to say about it. Sure. I think probably the biggest surprise to me was how little the Nine Inch Nails score worked for me. [01:15:00] Speaker B: Really. Okay. [01:15:02] Speaker A: Not because of the music itself. [01:15:03] Speaker B: Mm. [01:15:04] Speaker A: They. Nine Inch Nails shows up, does their thing. It's, I think, an appropriate kind of evolution of what Daft Punk did. It's. It's grittier, it's grimier, it's more industrial, which kind of makes sense as Tron is entering the real world kind of thing. But the way the film uses the score is so distracting to me. It just feels like Nine Inch Nails is constantly going extremely hard, like, for every minute of the film. [01:15:38] Speaker B: It is. [01:15:38] Speaker A: It is like you're watching these scenes that are supposed to just be, like, people talking or whatever or catching up on things, and Nine Inch Nails is fucking rattling your brain at the same time. And I don't know, it just. It ends up feeling like a lot of the scenes are like, how can we best create visuals to, like, accompany this score rather than the score accompanying the story? Because the story's just not that much to speak of. So that was the weird part to me. I was like, this is like, a good. This is good music in its own right. But it feels so excessive and distracting within the context of the film. [01:16:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It was very clear that Disney was aware that Jared Leto. Again, it always boggles my mind saying stuff like this, because if you're just aware, why would you let it? Yeah. But, yeah, they were very well aware that having Leto be the leads and Leto being the title character in terms of the Ares aspect, that there's probably should be other aspects that could sell the movie on than just Aries and I will be, I think completely. I think objectively, of these three films, it has the most talented ensemble we've gotten so far in terms of the biggest ensemble, because we have. Besides Jared Leto, we have Evan Peters, Gillian. Gillian Anderson or Gillian Anderson, Jody, Turner, Smith, Greta Lee, Arturo Castro, Hassan Minaj. A bunch of people that, like, even if you don't know their names, you have actually seen them before in other things. Well, as in, like, the original Tron. I don't know if many people would know most of them off the top of their heads, but they probably. It's in that same vein. Like, first, Tron and Legacy have very big casts, but mainly characters are down to four to five people, and everyone else is, like, tertiary programs that are either getting killed off or are just there. And then Ares has the biggest cast of, like, human characters that we have, and it's a blessing to curse in that regard. [01:17:43] Speaker A: Yeah. You even get Cameron Monaghan in there. [01:17:47] Speaker B: Oh, my God, I was shocked. [01:17:49] Speaker A: Lincoln, you'll miss it. Appearance. [01:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think he just posted, like, the amount of effort he put into that one fight scene. And, like, as, like, the. Like the previous stuff. And I was like, oh, I wonder if he's, like, got a prominent part of it. And they literally just put him in for ac. Yeah. So they sell the film on, like, a bigger cast. They sell the film on Nine Inch Nails, which, honestly, I think for a lot of people that go, if you don't have Daft Punk, you're fucking this up. And to be honest, it's not really Disney's fault. The Daft Punk, you know, retired. So, like, it's like, at this point, it's like you could get another. There's. Honestly, in my opinion, there are so many other electronic duos, bands, you know, people that can absolutely handle a Tron film in their own way. And I think knock it out of the park, like Daft Punk did. But I think going the route of going Nine Inch Nails is exactly what the film needs in terms of standing out as a different type of film. [01:18:48] Speaker A: Well, it's also, you know, it's a. An artist whose name and logo you can slap on the trailer. That's, like, absolute people. [01:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's like, again, when people think about Trent Reznor right now, it is less about his, you know, affiliation with Nine Inch Nails and more about him as a film composer. [01:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:06] Speaker B: Or a television composer with Atticus Ross. And I mean, hell, it's funny to say now because literally, you know, even though it wasn't nominated for an Academy Award, Daft Punk would have been nominated in the 2011 Oscars, would have ultimately lost if it had been because Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross won for the Social Network, I believe, the first time they'd ever won at that point. [01:19:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:25] Speaker B: And so it's like to get to now, this weird full circle, like now Trent Reznor and I think Atticus Ross are executive producing the film as well as doing original music, like having Nine Inch Nails make music for it. I. It is. I. I like the score a lot. I do think it's not as. What. It's not as well implemented as Daft Punks. I agree with you. It does have that energy at times that the tracks were made first and then they had to try to find it, implement it into. Tracks are still great. I would. I mean, definitely would recommend listening to that soundtrack if you're curious. If you. If you can listen to that soundtrack before you see Ares, like, before, it's worth listening to without having to see Ares. [01:20:05] Speaker A: I think. I think the best way to consume the score would be to just listen to it and just imagine how cool the movie would be that is set to this score and then never watch the actual movie. [01:20:16] Speaker B: Because the funny thing is, though, I would probably say that I. I think initial response was that I had a really solid time with it. I think I had enough fun with it worthwhile for a watch like it is. If anything, I will give the film props that it is the fastest paced of the three films. It is truly a roller. It is truly a roller coaster ride of a film that has the most action any of these films have ever had. It has the most, I would say, you know, attempts at being, you know, comedic as well as just, you know, just trying to really keep people engaged. And the visuals at all times in like a. Hey, don't turn away. Just keep looking. Stop, don't, don't. Don't look at anything too far or too hard. Just like, really sink in for this second and then keep moving. But ultimately, that fast pace leads the story to be, you know, shows exactly why Legacy doesn't do the same thing. Ares emotional elements are basically. Ares is an AI program that now feels feelings and wants to live in the real world and basically has a moral conundrum that ultimately either he follows his directives and does a horrible thing that he knows is a bad thing, or he goes against it, and then he goes against everything he was built to be in the first place. And it's things that. Look, not saying you can't do things we've done before and do it as well or better than other times, but it has something we've seen plenty of times in science fiction in the past. And doing that with Jared Leto is like, okay, fine, It's I. Whatever. Like, I. There's. Everything about this movie feels like the people that are involved. Very similar to Legacy Incense is that a lot of people really do love the idea of working on a Tron War old Tron film, being in that universe, including Leto. I think Leto genuinely selling the idea that he likes Tron and would like to be in this world. He think he sells it a lot in interviews. I mean, it's still Leto. [01:22:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:21] Speaker B: But like it's like. And clearly like him talking about working with Jeff Bridges for like maybe a day or two for his scenes. It is like. It's very much like the people are involved, are passionate and are invested enough in making the film look good. The film looks good. The film's action is well done. There is. There is improvements to the action in certain scenarios that I feel like make it more engaging in a sense. But also it's not as. In terms of design as interesting as Legacy. [01:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:53] Speaker B: It's also not as consistent design wise, I think, is Legacy. [01:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it's also. Yeah. Something that I. That struck me as odd just in the conceptually with the visuals of this film was that like, given the premise of the film, we are no longer in, you know, the grid that Kevin Flynn created. No, we're in Dillinger Systems Grid, which is encom's competitor. And so it's. It just struck me as odd that like all of the stuff still just looks like Tron, you know? [01:23:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:31] Speaker A: It's like the previous two movies. I'm like, why doesn't that lol look different? Because it's totally different software. [01:23:37] Speaker B: At the same time, though, I love the fact that since Dillinger is known now as the man who Stole Kevin Flynn's ideas and just repackaged it a little bit differently. Yeah, I love the fact that Dillinger Systems, because it's implied that John Dillinger gets pushed out of income, he builds a military company to a degree, or like a rival tech company called Dillinger Systems in the 80s and ultimately starts working for military companies. And then like, it's funny how. Yeah. Their version of the grid is literally Dillinger's knockoff of what the. What we know is the grid, which is basically. It's not a circle disk, it's a triangle. It's this hilarious kind of situation where I. Yeah, you like. I like the design of the Dillinger system in a sense of it being such an oppressive red orange glow and trying to be again, be like, how do you do another blue Tron film without basically being like well, this is not as good Legacy. So they try to, like, push that aside as much as possible by focusing on Dillinger Systems until they can't. [01:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:45] Speaker B: Where they have to go over to ENCOM and be like, it's kind of looks like Legacy. Don't worry about it. Don't even focus too much. And it's. Yeah. I think as a film, it is as a soft reboot, another soft reboot kind of sequel to the series. I think it does. Again, it engages certain interesting aspects that were in Legacy, but not in the way that I would probably have liked it. I do think that, you know, as much as I love seeing Greta Lee in bigger projects and I love that she's involved in this, I love. I think Evan Peters is a great actor as well. [01:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I do. Great actors in this. [01:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I do think it is that thing where it's like anytime there's emotional aspects in this movie, they really have to seriously do a lot of heavy lifting because there's just not a lot of time for them to really embrace. [01:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:38] Speaker B: Because like Julian. Julian Dillinger, who is John Dillinger's grandson, who is played by Evan Peters, is the one who heads Dillinger Systems and is the main antagonist who basically the whole crux of the film is basically ENCOM and Dillager Systems want to bring. They want to 3D print the grid into the real world, but can't because every time they do, they can only stay in the real world for 30 minutes, 29 minutes at a time. [01:26:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Before they disintegrate, basically. [01:26:09] Speaker B: And then Greta Lee, who is the CEO of encom, finds what is called the permanence algorithm or the permanence data. [01:26:19] Speaker A: Permanence code. [01:26:20] Speaker B: Permanence code which is found on Kevin Flynn's old stuff because her sister, even though being born in, like, the mid to late 80s, had a huge crush on Kevin Flynn and really loved his stuff. And Greta Lee's character, Eve Kim, basically finds the code. And then Evan Peters sends Aries to go capture her. And since Ares is chronically online, as soon as he meets a real woman, he starts to question. Starts to question whether or not he's doing the right thing, especially when she's showing him empathy. [01:26:56] Speaker A: The ultimate incel. [01:26:58] Speaker B: It was funny watching because, like, I understand what the movie's going for and I don't discount it for, like, I think trying to sell the fact that, like, this is a program that has felt really no love since its birth. [01:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:10] Speaker B: So to have. Have someone who is, like, crying and happy and sad and like all these different profile pics and like the first time he meets her in person, it is implied. Like it. She's being. She's empathizing with him. [01:27:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:22] Speaker B: It is fascinating just how funny it also feels where it's like he looks at one woman in the real world and he won't stop wanting to help her. [01:27:31] Speaker A: Why are men like this? [01:27:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's funny how the film is trying to like apparently the director. I cannot say his name because I believe he's a Norwegian director who I will butcher the absolute shit out of his name. [01:27:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:27:43] Speaker B: But he is the director of Pirates of the Caribbean 5 and Maleficent 2. [01:27:47] Speaker A: Mistress of Evil and I guess kind of one of Disney's sort of hired guns. [01:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think as a director he's incredibly solid and shows in this movie that like, he clearly likes Tron too and wants to just like, you know, live in this world and play with it in like a. Because it doesn't feel like it's a film that's embarrassed of the grid. It's more just being like, how do we stand out as a trial? [01:28:13] Speaker A: The going into the real world is clearly an effort to like. Yeah. How do we take it to the next level? [01:28:19] Speaker B: And to be honest, like, I think the light bike stuff was a lot of fun. The design of the bikes. Like, there's. There's clearly effort put into the physical aspect of it. Like everything feeling tangible in like, in terms of building. Like the fact that every single time they 3D print somebody, it has the 3D print. Like, you know, the residue support. [01:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah, well, support brackets that shit off of. [01:28:45] Speaker B: And I would even say, like, there's there. There are a few lines in the superheroes. Like, that line actually goes fairly hard. It has no right to go that hard. It doesn't make this movie great. But I appreciate that line. Like, it ultimately I think is a. It's a solid sequel. It is not. It is the type of movie though, where it also is like, I believe the director at one point said that he didn't want to make a nostalgia fueled sequel that feels like it's harkening too much back to Legacy or even the original Tron at some point. And I gotta feel like that has to be an early quote if that's true. Because my God, there's a whole fucking sequence in this movie with Kevin Flynn that just feels like Club Shido City. Like, it just feels like. Yeah, because again, I think one of the other things I forgot to bring up with Legacy is Legacy, I think, is as good as it is because it comes out before Force Awakens. Because if that movie comes out post Force Awakens, the idea of what a Tron Legacy sequel soft reboot is, is now going to be based off of the backbone of Force Awakens rather than what it was when they originally did it in 20 2009. 2010. So to basically get to a point where now we're watching Tron Ares make some of the Force Awakens choices of. Well, this is how we get people to get involved with Tron. Ares, Kevin's back. [01:30:09] Speaker A: Yeah. We have to show people all the things, all the things that they know. [01:30:14] Speaker B: Kevin's back. But we don't have Tron. Right. It's a Tron. It's Tron Ares. Tron is the franchise. And it's genuinely the only Tron movie that doesn't have Tron in any way, shape or form. Which is so funny. [01:30:28] Speaker A: Well, and it's like, it's. It's funny cuz Tron is, you know, kind of. He's bare, I guess, barely a character in Legacy, but it kind of works because it's like, oh, it's sad to see what was done to him and you know, kind of the corruption of Kevin or the old, you know, the old program and things like that at the hands of Clue. And then we, you know, Tron is, you know, we lose Tron. But it's weird. Like, yeah, there's no. I guess I would think there'd be some opportunity to kind of like try and. [01:31:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Bring him back for this. I don't know. [01:31:06] Speaker B: Cuz, cuz Tron sacrifices himself in Legacy to save the team and then get stuck in the sea of simulation, becomes Tron again. It's implied that he's back. Yeah, yeah. And you would think like, it. Cuz, like I could understand being like bringing back Korra, Sam, Kevin, Tron, other aspects I understand being like, that's so much baggage from another director, another creative team that like, I'm not really engaged with. Okay, fine. But the thing is, is it's a fucking Tron movie and he's literally a program. He is. You put him in the ENCOM server, there's a mysterious program that's killing viruses and you just find out. You could put him in the Kevin Flynn sequence and literally just be like, there's Tron, there's Kevin. They're both just hanging out in the ENCOM server, keeping everything safe. [01:31:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:56] Speaker B: Like that's all you have to do. But I just think like it feels so hollow that if it's like the intention is to feel like you can stand on your own two feet without having to hearken too much back to the original film when there's that entire Kevin Flynn sequence that is supposed to completely recreate the grid from 1982, including the bit, the light cycle, the music aspect, and then the audacity to have a post credits sequence that just absolutely feels like a tent pole mistake for a blockbuster film that wants to have a series, yet never does. Yeah, I like, I like when I got home today and I ran into Adam, I said, adam, I know we haven't been like, we haven't been alive that long, but we've been alive along long enough that we can see moments in films where we go, oh, this is going to be that scene where five years from now we're going to laugh at how they thought they had something here. Yeah, because I guess since this movie is literally just out while we're talking about it, spoiler alert. The post credits sequence is basically implying that Evan Peters, who is now stuck in the old Dillinger grid, is being rewritten as the new Sark, who is in the original Tron. And the film's last frame is of Evan Peters transitioning as he's screaming between Evan Peters, Evan Peters. That looks like Sark in a felt Sark suit. Yeah, kind of. And it's like, I cannot. [01:33:34] Speaker A: It's like, I mean, a weirdly faithful recreation of the design. Like, why? [01:33:40] Speaker B: When everything else is like, everything else. [01:33:42] Speaker A: Looks so zoomy and futuristic, you know, and you can say like, back in the cardboard crown. [01:33:48] Speaker B: And I could see if someone really has an issue with that comment from us. It's like, oh, maybe it's because it's an old program. Yeah, I get it. When that, when that fucking. When it, when the disc shows up, it looks like a Frisbee from the original film. But I'm just gonna say, if you want to stand on your own two feet, I don't know any child. I don't even think I at one, like, maybe if I was 15 or 16, right after Legacy, watching this and seen Sark, I would have probably wojacked seeing fucking Sark's outfit. But now seeing it in just like as an adult, just be like, guys, I just want a good Tron movie. I don't need this. Like, I don't. This honestly had the same energy as into darkness when. When Spock yells Khan. [01:34:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:34:34] Speaker B: I'm like, guys, please, come on. Yeah, like, if I'm younger, I'm gonna probably lose my mind to this because, like, I can't believe they're referencing this. But now I'm just like, please stop. [01:34:43] Speaker A: Like, younger. You probably didn't finish the original Tron, so you don't about. [01:34:48] Speaker B: I mean, again, it's like, Aries is solid. I think that's the best way to put it. Like, it really is. Like, I think people who are not good if you. If you have no interest to see it now, but you're like, ah, if it's on Disney plus, I'll give it a watch in, like, a few months. I could see people watching a few months from now being like, actually, that was better than I expected at a good time. I do not regret not seeing it in theaters. I feel like that's gonna be most people's responses to Aries, because, like, again, as a Tron fan, I understand if you're out there and you made the monkey's paw wish collectively of, we want a Tron sequel so badly, please give it to us now. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:26] Speaker B: And they're like, okay, we'll give it to you, but it's a Jared Leto vehicle. How do you feel about that, if that is what you're willing to get another Tron film out of the way? I feel like there are worst Jared Leto vehicles out there for sure. But at the same time, ultimately, if you're ending your third film with the idea of, like, oh, maybe we'll touch on things that, you know, we didn't touch on with Legacy, but we could. We could talk about more things from the original. Maybe it's like, guys, the reason why I think Legacy has stood the test of time in the last 15 years. It is one of the reasons why I think I've gravitated so much towards it is I think that film literally stands on its own, disconnected from this film now. And the original Tron, like, yeah, I. [01:36:14] Speaker A: Mean, they kind of recontextualize Kevin Flynn well enough in, yeah, Legacy as, you know, this bygone figure that, yeah, it works. I had never seen Tron, the original, until this podcast, and I enjoyed Legacy. [01:36:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. And it's like that Legacy, but, like, it feels like the team of Legacy ends the film in a way where if, like, worst case scenario, they don't get another movie. This feels like a contained, complete enough story that people can enjoy this film by itself. I feel like there's enough in Aries that doesn't have that when it really should. I feel like Aries by itself is just kind of like yeah, this is a sequel to a franchise that is 40 plus years old that is after the Force Awakens. So it has a lot of the same. Remember this, you know we're referencing here, like there's this, there's that and like there's cheeky things you can get away with. Like both Legacy and Aries have constant visual Easter eggs in terms of the name Dumont, which Dumont is like the techno priest in the original film. There's even a visual gag. Visual gag. But like a visual Easter egg in Aries with a company called Shadix which is literally the original Tron directors character name Legacy. So like I do think the team behind Aries, it is not a, is not a soulless cash grab. I think Aries clearly has a lot of love put into it despite the fact of the creative people behind it as well as despite the fact that this is a film that's been in development for over a decade in some way, shape and form. And when they started trying to shoot this film, I think it was 2023. And that's when the strikes happened. So it's like COVID protocols, like strikes. The original Aries director drops out and then this new guy comes in and like all these like for the amount of things that they had to go through for the last decade for it to come out and it not be complete bullshit. I'm glad. But at the same time is there a lot to chew on with Ares? I think in my opinion compared to Legacy, I don't think it's as much like I think it very much think it's a strong like maybe a 3 out of 5. Mainly because of just like the enjoyment of watching it. But like I don't. I could see it go down. Like it really is like I enjoyed it more. The original Tron. Like I think the original Tron is my least favorite of the three in a way. But at the same time I adore that original Tron way more than I think I liked my favorite aspects of Aries. [01:38:56] Speaker A: Sure. [01:38:56] Speaker B: Like there's like Tron and Tron Legacy because again Aries is so new. This could all change. Obviously. They could literally say tomorrow they're making two fucking more of these movies if they wanted to. I don't know why financially doesn't seem like that's what they want, but. Yeah, but like ultimately like it's the test of time will save. Aries can really stand on its own. I think right now from just an initial watch. I really just wish, you know, if I really have to take The Jared Leto of it all, regardless of everything. I just wish, like, they took more time to build out the more interesting aspects of the characters and really let the grid versus the real world stuff, I think, be more interesting philosophically than what it really is. Because I think you're right. I think it. Because it's doing a lot of wild kind of cool shit in terms of, like, technologically where we're at versus where we were in the original film. But they don't really. They don't really hamper on. They don't really talk about that too much there. [01:39:55] Speaker A: It's more just kind of set dressing for a watered down and super compressed version of the arc from Terminator 2. [01:40:03] Speaker B: Like, yeah, like, hilariously, you would like. It almost seems like looking for the permanence code leads the current situation of everyone, every program, like, living for 30 minutes basically means no one takes it seriously until it becomes really an issue when they realize how to cheat the system. Like Athena. Like the whole thing with Jodie Turner Smith turning into like an Athena that is like, basically just like wreaking havoc. [01:40:29] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:40:30] Speaker B: That kind of shit, I think is like. Like, we could have more fun with this. Like, it's like, I. Yeah, it has a lot of cool. It has a lot of cool aspects to it, but I think overall it's more hollow than it should be. Yeah, that's a bummer because again, to get a Tron film in 2025 is insane. So, you know, it really is like, you got to take what you can get. And, you know, if there's Tron fans up there that think this movie's a 9 out of 10, I'm happy, but that is not me. [01:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you're. You're. And you are, as usual, more generous than I. Yeah, yeah, I would. I would. I think I give this, like a reluctant two and a half. Like, I want to give it two. But I'm like, I had an okay time. [01:41:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it'll really show if I ever want to rewatch this again. Like, right now, I have no interest. But I do think that says a lot. [01:41:30] Speaker A: Yes. Whereas you watch the last one a hundred times. Like, it. [01:41:33] Speaker B: Well, here's the thing is, like, yeah, if you feels like I have, like, genuinely like, while I was watching it with Rey, I felt so comfortable watching it with them that I was literally quoting the film under my breath as I was watching it. Like, that's the kind of. That's the kind of way that I feel about Legacy. So I am biased when it comes to my love for Legacy, but I'm aware of that bias. So take that with a grain of salt. If you love Legacy as much as I do, I would highly recommend just giving Ares a try. But ultimately it's not gonna be exactly what you want it to be. But yeah, I mean that's, that's the Tron trilogy. It is a, like we said at the very beginning, it is a 40 plus year long franchise that has, I think, more than it has any right to have. And while I personally wish there was more, you know, creatives and more things trying to build out the world in a very fun, unique way, because it's science fiction sandbox that I think is this ripe with fun, you know, set pieces, conversations, storylines. I also understand that, you know, we can't have everything that we want. So I appreciate the things that we have gotten. I hope we do get more Tron in the future. I hope that, you know, if they do, they don't feel like they're relegated to just do it because one person wants it as a vanity project. But we'll have to see what happens next. I mean, if you're a Tron fan and you, you know, have been looking for other Tron media that you don't know is out there and you haven't seen Ares yet, there actually are. In the last two years there have been like a visual novel Tron game and a Tron top down action game that literally just came out this year that I've been. It's been on my backlog for a while, but I've seen the designs and the world and it looks very Legacy X but like in a unique way where the team doesn't feel like they're relegated to just doing legacy again. But I would recommend that if you do play video games and you aren't really interested in a Jared Leto Tron film at the moment, but you'll give it a watch down the line. I'd probably recommend those games or checking out other Tron related stuff. And there's definitely some computer hacking, sci fi narratives that are easily interesting out there as well. But as of right now, no more Tron announcements yet. But you know, if we do get a Tron 4, I hope it's more promising than what it currently feels like we'll get with the future of Tron after this weekend, opening weekend box office. But now that we're done with our October episodes, going from, you know, our Toxic Avengers sequels to now talking about, you know, Jeff Bridges, Garrett Hedlund, CGI Jeff Bridges and Jared Leto of it all in the Tron franchise. We're now starting November off with an episode that I. I curated. Was this something that I brought to the table? I think it was. I think there's me. To start off November, we're bringing back our Kurosawa aficionado who was with us when we did our Shakespeare episode, our friend of the podcast and fellow IFJ member Matt Hurt to discuss what I curated as the the Twilight of Kurosawa. We are discussing his final three films pertaining to basically Kira, Kurosawa's Dreams, Rhapsody in August and Matadayo, basically from the late 80s into the early 90s, discussing the final films of one of the what most people would call one of the greatest directors to ever be a part of the craft. And after doing our Shakespeare episode, I, you know, was just ready to do another episode with Matt. We both were to do another episode about Kurosawa. So I just felt like it'd be fantastic to talk about the Kurosawa films that, in terms of his big career, are not usually considered his best films or usually in Rhapsody in August and Matadaio's case, most talked about. So, yeah, tune in on November 1st when we team up with Matt Hurt and talk about the Twilight of Kurosawa. But until then, I'm Logan Sowash. [01:45:47] Speaker A: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:45:48] Speaker B: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.