Episode 92: The Venom Trilogy (with Evan Dossey)

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:24] Speaker A: And on Odd Trilogies, we take a trio of films where they're tied by cast and crew, numerical order, or even just thematic elements. And we talked about the good, the bad and the weird surrounding them. And today is I guess technically our Thanksgiving episode To a Way to a Shape or Form. And what better way to talk about what we should be thankful for than to talk about a trilogy. I don't think either one of us ever thought we would ever talk about on the show because we didn't know it would ever become a trilogy. But we knew if we were going to talk about this trilogy, we couldn't have done it with anybody else. So we have a guest today, but before we get to them, we are talking about the Venom trilogy. A six year long trilogy that I think has surprised most people, even the fans of this trilogy that encompasses 2018's Venom, 2021's Venom Let There Be Carnage, and 2024's Venom the Last Dance. Andy, who do we have with us today? [00:01:26] Speaker B: Well, yeah, you're right. It's good that we're doing this for Thanksgiving because I can't think of anybody who's more thankful for these movies than our guest, the co founder and incredibly prolific writer Evan Dawsey from Midwest Film Journal. Evan, thanks for joining us. [00:01:45] Speaker C: Thank you for having me on to talk about the best contained superhero trilogy of the modern era. [00:01:55] Speaker B: That's a hell of a thesis. I'm so glad you're here. [00:01:59] Speaker C: Oh my. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Finally getting you on the podcast. [00:02:02] Speaker A: Honestly, did you think we would ever do this before we asked you to do something Gundam related? Or did you just. [00:02:09] Speaker C: I'm almost glad you did because I feel so strongly about the Venom movies. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Right. It's a good end. [00:02:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Potentially stronger than anyone else. About the. Yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker B: I couldn't think of another person who has as strong feelings, especially as strong positive feelings. Yeah, it's interesting you say that because. [00:02:33] Speaker C: Do you know anyone who has strong negative feelings about these movies? [00:02:37] Speaker B: I have read some strong negative reviews. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Okay, well, we need a certain film in this trilogy. Maybe you'll see, you'll hear some of that. But I guess as of right now, no. [00:02:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I. To kick off talking about these movies just so because it's been a long time since I remember the inception of like when they announced this movie was going to actually happen. Who was attached to it, how we could probably have a whole podcast episode talking about the fact that Sony basically made a trilogy to dangle in front of fans that maybe. Maybe someone could show up in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, even though they're not connected and no one wants them in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But this was the original. Venom was like. Wasn't it like, a mid 2000s, late 2000s, like, passion project that Avi Arad, who is a prominent notorious Sony producer, like, wanted almost from the get go. Right. [00:03:46] Speaker C: So, I mean, Venom, you know, Venom came, was created by Todd McFarlane back in Amazing Spider Man 300 in the 90s. And he's pretty much the breakout Spider man villain of the 90s. And it's easy to sort of. I mean, obviously, you know, Venom first appeared on the big screen in 2007, which, you know, at the time, he had been in development in various movie development for, like, a decade. Like, they've been trying to make Venom things almost as early as when he first appeared in the comics. Yeah, he was such a breakout character. [00:04:20] Speaker B: I think David S. Goyer had a script or something in the 90s. [00:04:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I mean, all sorts of people had had a script of some kind. And then finally, Sony forced Sam Raimi to put him into Spider Man 3. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Which we did talk about. We did talk about Spider Man 3. [00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:37] Speaker A: And how Topher Grace was what we thought at the time the most perfect Eddie Brock, Venom actor, until we were proven wrong. [00:04:46] Speaker C: I mean, look, I would watch a Venom verse movie with Topher Grace versus Tom Hardy. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Oh, like a multiverse crossover. [00:04:55] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:56] Speaker C: I do it in the comics all the time now. Venom verse. [00:04:59] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:59] Speaker A: But it's a. It's a bummer now, too, though, because as we're recording this, the other one I would love to see in a certain situation like that is Tony Todd's. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Version, who had just game. Yeah. [00:05:12] Speaker A: From Insomniac. He's. His Venom voice is, like, perfect. [00:05:16] Speaker B: Oh, that was pretty awesome. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah. But, my lord. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Well, before. Before we dive headfirst into the first movie. Evan, do you. Can you give us a sense of, like, your relationship to Venom as a character? Was he a favorite of yours prior to these movies? I mean, you're a huge comic book guy. [00:05:39] Speaker C: Well, but so Venom is interesting, right? Venom as a character in the comics is obviously really popular because of the visual design of the character, but for most of the 2000s, which is his second decade as a character, Marvel had no idea what to do with it. My formative years reading comics were that decade. So that decade you had Mac Gargan as the Scorpion, took over the Venom symbiote. Then you had Flash Thompson take over the Venom symbiote, become Agent Venom, which is supposedly what Sony's doing for Venom 4, which is, you know, taking on the, you know, the soldier who gets Venom and becomes, like, a secret agent. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:22] Speaker C: Nobody wants that movie. I doubt they're going to finance that movie. [00:06:27] Speaker B: But. [00:06:28] Speaker C: So, I mean, Venom is always been cool, but he's never been a character that I'm that fond of. And truthfully, Venom didn't start to become interesting in his modern era until after the Tom Hardy movie, but for a completely different reason than you would expect. It's nothing like the Tom Hardy Venom. Like. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:49] Speaker C: If you go on, like, forums who are fans of Venom, they generally hate the way Venom is portrayed in the movies. [00:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:55] Speaker C: Like, and the comics have not followed suit at all. So, frankly, I had no expectations for the first movie. I remember going to that screen in 2018 and just thinking it was a chore. It was just to be some stupid bullshit. And, of course, we were all proven wrong. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Well, that's. Yeah. I mean, again, that's another thing, too, is like, it's like a year before this comes out. Like, in 2017, I think there's, like, they reveal that it's Zombieland. Director Ruben Fleischer. Yeah, it is. Tom Hardy is not only Eddie, but he's also doing the voice of Venom. Michelle Williams, Reese Ahmed, who at that point, I think is like a year out of Rogue One. [00:07:42] Speaker C: Yeah, he was having his moment. [00:07:44] Speaker A: And also Nightcrawler. Those are, like, his two biggest films at that point. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:49] Speaker A: And so it's like, to actually be like, by the way, Sony is making a Venom film and Marvel Entertainment, or just like, Marvel that we know as the mcu. Marvel is not involved. It is. [00:08:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:05] Speaker A: But they are playing it in such a way that if they wanted to be. [00:08:12] Speaker B: Well. And of course, Spider man at that point was pretty recently newly on loan to the MCU. [00:08:20] Speaker C: Well, yeah, keep in mind that. [00:08:22] Speaker B: Because 2016 is his first appearance. [00:08:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, keep in mind, Venom came out after, you know, like you said, 2016, Civil War, 2017, Homecoming, 2018, Infinity War. Like, that was really the height of Tom Holland's Spider man in some ways. You know, obviously, no Way Home is great and has a Venom cameo, but, like, sure. You know, Infinity War is where he peaks as a member of the Marvel universe. Like, in terms of screen time and. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:56] Speaker C: Story utility and, like. So, yeah, everyone was. No. Nobody knew what to do with this Venom movie. That was like, you can't show Spider Man. Like, you can't reference anything in the Marvel universe. Like, it's directed by someone who. I mean, Zombieland's fine, but, like, his other movies are not particularly like. [00:09:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like 30 seconds or less. Was. He was like his big, quote unquote, big film after Zombieland, and that didn't do anything. Didn't. [00:09:25] Speaker C: And he made. He made Gangster Squad. [00:09:28] Speaker A: God, he did make Gangster Squad. [00:09:30] Speaker C: It's terrible. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Part of the. Of the. Of the trilogy I haven't told any about, which is the Emma Stone, Ryan Gosling trilogy. It's. It's just Gangster Squad, La La Land, and Crazy Stupid Love. [00:09:45] Speaker B: It's like, you should do that. [00:09:49] Speaker C: I mean, have you seen Gangster Squad, Andy? [00:09:52] Speaker B: I. I have. I. When it came out, I think I liked it, but I have very little memory of it. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Well, I remember seeing it because it got recut. It got pushed back because it had a controversial scene that happened after Aurora. I think it happened after Dark Knight Rises. There's a scene in one of the original trailers where there's gangsters shooting through a movie theater screen. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:19] Speaker A: And it was supposed to come out in 2012 and then got pushed back to 2013 because I cut that out and I was like, well, I got to see if it was worth the controversy. And spoiler alert, Gangster Squad is not. Really wasn't. [00:10:32] Speaker C: I think that Gangster Squad was one of the first press screenings I ever went to when I started writing for the film. Yeah. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Really? [00:10:39] Speaker B: Really. [00:10:40] Speaker C: Yeah, but. [00:10:41] Speaker A: And you're like, this Sean Penn. He might be going somewhere. [00:10:45] Speaker C: I think I gave it a moderately, like, thought, like, kind review. But, I mean, I. Yeah, I didn't. [00:10:52] Speaker A: Even know Ruben Fleischer directed it. I completely forgot that. Yes, that's. That's kind of the career he's had pre Venom and then he hasn't much. [00:11:02] Speaker C: One after one. [00:11:03] Speaker A: No, he's. He had. What, did he just have a film that come out or just got announced? I thought he. It was Zombieland. I think it was Zombieland. I thought. [00:11:12] Speaker C: I don't think he made Zombieland. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's fine. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:17] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:11:18] Speaker A: I. [00:11:18] Speaker C: Again, now you see me three. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. It should be called now you see three. It should. [00:11:27] Speaker B: Now you three me. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Now you three me. Oh, that's even better. Never mind. [00:11:32] Speaker C: Glady two eight or Glad to. [00:11:36] Speaker B: A. Glad to. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Glad to. [00:11:40] Speaker B: That's how. That's how it appears on the title card in the film. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fun. [00:11:44] Speaker B: As the two Roman numerals yeah. [00:11:47] Speaker A: So in 2017 you have Ruben Fleischer and Tom Hardy. I don't think it's like a Comic Con. I think it actually might be Comic Con. And now that I'm thinking about it, I think it's them being like, hey, Venom's coming out. Wait for a trailer the next few months. And then the trailer comes out. And then it's. We're now so disconnected from when that trailer came out that I had to remind myself just how notorious that trailer was four months leading up to the release of the first film. Because there are certain lines in those trailers. Turd in the Wind was fucking everywhere. [00:12:25] Speaker B: That was everywhere. There was also the. The one lady pronouncing it Symbiote. Symbiote was like all over the place. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Jenny Slate. [00:12:35] Speaker B: I think so. Yeah. [00:12:37] Speaker A: And there's also was. [00:12:38] Speaker B: It might have been the Asian scientist lady who has like two lines. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Oh. But there's also Eddie Brock going, your. Your boss, he's a. He's a bad person. Like, he's that kind of liners like he's a bad guy. Like, it's like little lines that like, I don't even think are actually in the film. It's very much like, my mom was in the Amazon. Kind of like lines like trying to fill in the blanks. And it was a trailer where it was like, no one really had any faith going into the first film. Little, let alone be the catalyst for more Spider man, less Spider man villain and anti hero films. [00:13:20] Speaker C: It's interesting too, because I remember back in the day, it was a big controversy that it was also not R rated. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, like people. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Because people wanted him tearing heads off and she still does. [00:13:34] Speaker C: I mean, he still bites people's heads off in the pg. It's crazy. But it. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's because again, it's. Yeah, it's at that point, it's like if you were a fan of Venom as he came out, and then you get to the point where this is coming out 2018, it's like, well, I'm an adult now. I want to rated our Venom film. And it's like, well, guys, they're trying to get more than just the people who've grown up with them. They probably just want money. They just want money. They're just gonna go in the PD13, I think too. [00:14:03] Speaker C: I mean, this came out, what, two years after Deadpool, a year after Logan. Like you had that initial R rated superhero six, those success stories. So I think people thought Venom should be chasing that Market. But, like, it's funny because tonally, like, Venom is so far away from an R rated movie. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:14:28] Speaker B: It's almost. It's almost more of a comedy. And, like. [00:14:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Not even like a raunchy comedy, just a silly slapstick. [00:14:35] Speaker C: Yeah. It's like, significantly more family friendly than, like, Deadpool. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:41] Speaker C: Well, but like. [00:14:42] Speaker B: And I mean, and it kind of marks a trend, at least for a little while. Like, the. Those first few Sony Spider man, less Spider man movies all having this kind of underpinning of hope that maybe they'll get to play ball with the mcu. And so, of course, they're like, not gonna push the envelope too far because we want to be able to match up with that. [00:15:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:09] Speaker B: So you're kind of stuck in that PG13 territory. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Because the big thing about realizing that Eddie's in San Francisco because of an incident that happened in New York. [00:15:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:20] Speaker A: Like, it's trying to find a way to get around the fact that, like, they don't even want people to be like, well, they should have seen Spider man at this point. Like. [00:15:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:29] Speaker A: Because. Yeah. That is something that I think is very fascinating about these three films is by the time we have gotten to Last Dance, the rhetoric talking about, will they, won't they, with Spider man in a Venom film has gone from, so when is it going to happen? Which was like, Amy Pascal constantly, like, making Kevin Feige awkward, like, and just uncomfortable talking like, oh, it's gonna happen. To, like, Last Dance, where it's basically a bunch of interviewers asking Hardy it. What's your dream version? If maybe he showed up? It's got the flight where it's like, no, don't, don't, don't tease Tom Hardy. Tom Hardy's not, I don't think, interested in that anymore. [00:16:10] Speaker C: Well, it's funny because, I mean, I'm sure if. I'm sure if they were making Secret wars and Kevin Feige was like, all right, we need to bring as much shit as we can from across the, like, the Marvel diaspora. Like, I'm sure if they showed up and they were like, do you want to hang out with Tom Holland? I mean, yeah, I'm sure he would show up and be like, okay. But I can't imagine they would have any reason to do that. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Like, yeah, it's. And getting just into the film itself, it is just. Yeah, I think it's absolutely just wild that the first Venom is just like. It feels like a film that was made a decade like, prior, script wise. [00:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah. It really Feels like a throwback kind of to those 2000s, like mid to late 2000s, right before the MCU kind of superhero movies. [00:17:03] Speaker A: I will say this is. I'm not saying this is if it's the same quality as this film. [00:17:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:08] Speaker A: But it gave me strong Catwoman energy. There's some strong Catwoman similarities in terms of its interpretation and how it handles certain things. [00:17:19] Speaker C: So it's interesting because, I mean, that first decade of superhero films was fundamentally defined by the fact that these studios were trying to graft their properties onto the action movie template that had gotten them through the 90s, which is why so many of them feel so structurally similar. And I don't feel that way about the first Venom, actually. I mean, to some extent I agree that it feels like a throwback only because it's like it's a. It's a. It's like it's a. It's a B movie at best. And it's completely carried by Tom Hardy. And that's how a lot of those movies always felt. Right. [00:17:58] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I think it's more in the, yeah, like the kind of the quaint sort of straightforwardness and the sort of ham fistedness of the execution is what feels more like that. But you're right, like structurally, it's doing something distinctly like modern in the kind of post MCU era. [00:18:20] Speaker C: And I guess my thesis, I told Nick this was my thesis a few weeks ago, and he was like, he's like, you and me coming into odd trilogies fully loaded to talk about something that's a bugaboo. But like, like what's so what, what makes Venom so interesting as a superhero trilogy that came out in 2018, is that like, you know, Iron man is the movie that bridges the two generations of superhero films. Right. Because it starts the Marvel universe, but it's also just a honestly four act action movie with a charismatic star who carries the entire thing. And so Marvel, what Marvel did is it, you know, they were lucky. They cast charismatic stars for their first phase and they had all these breakout characters who were really great who went on all these actors, they can go and sell other things besides Chris Evans. Like, he can't sell shit apparently. But Chris Hemsworth can sell stuff on occasion. Right, but, but like everything after their second phase, after Guardians, right, they, I guess after Black Panther, but they haven't had that many breakout characters and movie stars. But like, I think Tom Hardy's Venom, I mean, he alone sells this entire trilogy of movies. Well, I think he's a definitive superhero performance. [00:19:37] Speaker B: And I mean, from. From the jump, too. Like, from the announcement, people were like, oh, Tom Hardy's involved. He's going to do it. Right? You know? [00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:46] Speaker B: And, like, is still a huge reason that people even go see these movies. [00:19:50] Speaker C: And is there another superhero film, particularly as Marvel's entered it's, like, really dire phase of, like, things that just aren't popping. Like, has there been another performance like that in the genre? [00:20:03] Speaker A: No. I mean, I think culturally, I think it's a good. It's a great choice to pick Hemsworth in terms of, like, the MCU actors who have kind of found their niche and done their own thing, because Hemsworth is a great example, because I think it actually ties to Hardy because Hemsworth, of all the other actors who have kind of tried to do their Dolittles, their red ones, you know, all these different, like, situations. But, like, I think the reason why Hemsworth is because he is bold and he picks weird choices. It is still. I do not think Chris Evans. I don't think Robert Downey Jr. Would ever be like, yeah, sure, I'll be Optimus prime, like Hemsworth. Or I'll be, like, the villain in, like, a Mad Max prequel film. Like, Hemsworth. Hemsworth is just takes his. Himself not as seriously as people would probably think. Compared to, like, think about how Pratt, Chris Pratt, does the inverse, where people love him because of being a lovable oaf, and then he uses his MCU prestige to make the Tomorrow War or the Blacklist or, like, killer serious, bland kind of vibe. And it's like, with Hardy, the reason why this first film is even watchable in a lot of places is because Hardy is clearly invested in the weirder aspects of the Venom Eddie relationship to the boy, where it's like, yeah, clearly he's. Because there are certain actors where I bet they would do Venom because it's like, Venom's buff and he's evil and he's weird, and it's like, internal. Was he a good guy? Is he a bad guy? But Hardy's like, no, this is a loser who wants to be a good guy but doesn't know how to be with an alien, who in this version is also a loser who doesn't know how to be a good guy. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Well, and just a fucking weird dude. Like, just a strange duck. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker C: The best thing about the Venom symbiote I read, or I was listening to another podcast I like, who put it into words about the Last Dance specifically. But, like, the best thing about the Venom as a character, as a Symbiote is that he's by far. He's the least heroic symbiote. He's the least capable symbiote. He's literally just an alien who has a lust for life and is just stupid as hell. And like, that's such a crazy take on this. [00:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:28] Speaker C: Character. [00:22:29] Speaker A: It's honestly a very especially. It's a very Raimi take. Like, I feel like if Raymie actually did a Venom film, that's kind of what he would do as well. Like, it's like it is silly to be like this guy. Just because he's buff doesn't mean he knows what the he's doing. And I kind of like that when the films kind of excel the best, when it's like they have no idea what they're doing and they're just going to wing it and hardy wings it really well in certain scenes. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker A: I mean, probably the most. [00:23:00] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, and it's like kind of like this interpretation of Venom is kind of like the antithesis of like what all the his biggest fans love about the characters. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Not this unstoppable hard ass. I mean, you know, he still goes on his rampages when he's know in full form, but like you said, I mean, he's a loser. He's not heroic. He's kind of a coward. And Eddie is kind of the same way. Obviously he has some principles, but he's still kind of chicken shitting his way through. And I'm sure that's obviously a huge reason that Venom fans in those forums don't like these movies. But it's also one of the main, major factors that these movies are interesting at all. Yeah. So. Yeah. [00:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I. It's, it's also the fact too that like. And I will say, like the effects have aged pretty well. I know it's only been six years. Like, I think the design of Venom I think is aged pretty decently. Well, especially. [00:24:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Like, I mean, he literally is like a buff black spider man with like shark teeth. [00:24:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:16] Speaker A: And like bait in a basic way. And then you can just improve on that design. And anyway, like, I'm looking at this. [00:24:22] Speaker C: This figure here and I mean a big controversy in both of his major homescreen. [00:24:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:28] Speaker C: Appearances. They can't have the spider man spider on the Venom. I mean they. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. [00:24:33] Speaker B: They do like a veiny sort of. [00:24:35] Speaker C: Yeah, but so he just has like the veiny web stuff in. In these movies. And I mean it actually looks pretty good. I mean. [00:24:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember that being A big point of contention when the first, like, trailer came out of people being like, oh, I didn't have the white markings. He's not Venom. It's like, guys, just. [00:24:51] Speaker A: We're not getting. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Work with it. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah. We're not getting symbiote Peter, then symbiote Brock. We are getting just. We're going right to Venom. We're not. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:01] Speaker A: There's. It's. Yeah. I still think about how long, like, for months. The line, you know, I gotta be honest with you, Eddie, I was. I'm a bit of a loser on my planet. Was just like, it killed so many people's hopes and dreams of what they thought they wanted from a Venom film. And to be honest, I mean, I remember when I first heard that line, I was baffled because, again, that was not what I was expecting from. From a film like this. But now when I watch it, it's like, that's so stupid. But it's so. I mean, I had no idea about. [00:25:34] Speaker C: That line until we were sitting in a screener and I was with Nick and that movie. That line killed so hard in that screen that we were like, okay, this movie's doing something. Like, it knows what it's doing, and it very specific and, like, very funny. [00:25:50] Speaker A: And that's also after a scene where Michelle Williams with the Venom on. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Kisses Eddie and then Eddie gets the Venom. So Venom kisses Eddie and gets back onto Eddie. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker A: I mean, and then they run away. [00:26:05] Speaker C: It's also. I mean, that's also like 30 minutes after the scene where Eddie's overheating and washes his balls in the lobster tank. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Like. [00:26:12] Speaker C: I mean, the movie establishes itself pretty fast, but. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and it's. I. I'm not that well versed in. In Venom comics, but, like, screwball buddy comedy is not really a through line, to my understanding, in, like, Venom storytelling. So it's pretty, you know, pretty bold swing in a way to make your whole movie feel like that more than anything else. I mean, it feels like screwball buddy comedy more than it does a superhero movie. [00:26:45] Speaker A: But there are some, like, notable Venom clip, like, comics that were, like, strips that were kind of going around of, like. But the dark comedy, when done well with Venom, where it's like, sure. I think in Venom to the closest thing where it's like. I think I've read a comic that's like, this is when they stop a burglar. And Venom is like, in the comic, Venom just eats a burglar. And it's like, see, we did a Good thing we stopped that guy. And it's like, no, we killed him. Yeah, like, that's like the closest thing that I. Yeah, the dark comedy aspect of it is like, oh, yeah, I guess Venom does have a little bit of that. Be a screwball. No, that was. That was not on my bingo card. When we. Because we saw together. Andy, if I remember correctly, we saw Venom. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Oh, fuck. That's right. [00:27:26] Speaker A: We saw it together in theaters and we had heard that there was an after credits scene for the film. And did you want to tell people what the after credits scene is to Venom? Do you remember? [00:27:40] Speaker B: I think I get these movies after credit scenes mixed up. So now I don't remember which one this was. [00:27:46] Speaker A: The after the after credits scene for Venom. One is a teaser for Spider Man. Into the Spider Verse. It is the Peter B. Parker intro scene. They did the intro because into the Spider Verse was coming out that October, November. And it was like, it was August when this came out. And I remember both of us being like, did we just fucking see? [00:28:11] Speaker B: Well, and it's not just like a stinger. It's like a no. 4 or 5 plus minute scene. Yeah. And actually now that you mentioned that, when. When I was rewatching the film for this, I remember like, I like looked at the play time left and I was like. It was literally like seconds away from rolling credits. And it said like 20 minutes left. And I was like, how are there 20 minutes left in this movie? Scrub forward. And I was like, oh God. Yeah, there's an entire scene from Spider Verse in the credits. [00:28:44] Speaker A: I was wondering if they kept that for home release. And love that they did, because that is so. That is such a fun little tidbit where it's like, that's where we were at with Sony and Spider Man. They were like, they couldn't help themselves. Where it's like, hey, if you liked Venom, you'll really like into the Spider Verse. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Maybe that's not related at all. [00:29:06] Speaker C: They didn't have any hope in Venom either, right? [00:29:10] Speaker B: No, I. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Especially with the amount of money it made. Like, I think it's because I had to look because, like, I've been kind of curious about how Last Dance is doing because, like, I just. I am baffled by the amount of money it's making. I mean, it's made its money back for sure. But like, this is a trilogy that is one and a half billion dollar plus. Like the first, like Venom 1 makes nearly $900 million. [00:29:40] Speaker B: On $100 million budget. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Insane. And to think that the first one is 100 million DOL. And Last Dance is $120 million. Like, it's not even a huge jump. [00:29:52] Speaker C: No, I mean, it's a great example of, like actually budgeting these things appropriately. Like $200 million, $250 million. Like. [00:30:02] Speaker A: Well, they do. Yeah. They definitely find the way around it with all three of these. Mainly just with Hardy just doing his best, like Bruce Campbell goofball sesh, like possession scenes a lot of the times. [00:30:17] Speaker C: Well, let's be honest, like most of Venom, the Last Dance, if it's not him in like a desert backlot, is like the chintziest made for TV. Like Area 55. Like. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:30:31] Speaker C: It's crazy bad looking. [00:30:34] Speaker A: The amount of. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Highly economical. [00:30:36] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it is. Again, it's funny to say that, and it's $120 million for venom plastic Y. But I mean, yeah, we're what, 20 minutes in and we have yet to talk about the actual plot of the first Venom film. So I think we should. [00:30:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's. It's not. It's. [00:30:56] Speaker A: Evan just rolled his eyes. [00:30:58] Speaker B: No, I mean, we've talked. We've talked at length about how kind of the tone of the movie and the approach to the two central characters was kind of unconventional. I would say the plot is like anything but surprising. Oh, yeah, yeah. It kind of does all the basic, like, sci fi setup, evil scientist, you know, weapons manufacturer type thing and. But I think, you know, while we're talking plot and characters, like, one thing that I think does work in this movie for me, that's like a reason that I was invested in the film, I guess, is like the Michelle Williams character, Anne, and her dynamic with Eddie, and of course her fiance, boyfriend, Dan, Dr. Dan. And they create kind of a fun little weird trio. Interesting sort of dynamic that you don't really see in superhero movies much. It's something you might expect from like a rom com. But that kept me going through this one and honestly, like, was kind of a big plus for me. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Gosh, just Michelle Williams being in this. Every time I've seen this, it just. It always baffles me when I think about it. Especially even two, like being like, hey, they brought her back. That's wild. [00:32:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and in this one especially, maybe a little bit more than two, she's like. She's kind of matching Tom Hardy's freak. It's like she gets that it's a totally silly, goofy thing and is really hamming it up. And their banter is really fun. [00:32:42] Speaker C: Well, it's especially Great in the second one. And I think that. I think that the. The Last Dance is really lacking for her not being there. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:50] Speaker C: Because she normal, but she also, like you said, she matches his freak. She accepts Venom for who Venom is, too, which is nuts. It's a nuts concept. But, like, he has these normal people. Mrs. Mrs. Chen, obviously. Like, she accepts him and she shows up in the Last Dance, and it's great. [00:33:10] Speaker A: But, like. [00:33:11] Speaker C: Like, it's so unique, uniquely, this series, that, like, Venom is, like, he's just a character like that. These other human beings who are otherwise normal. [00:33:22] Speaker A: I don't understand. I don't know. Better a way to describe to someone the popularity of the first Venom film than the fact that when. And across the spider verse, they can have a cameo from the Venom universe. Yeah, they don't fucking pick venom. They pick Mrs. Chen. Yeah, they have a Mrs. Chen cameo and across the spider verse. And it just kind of shows how, like, that's how much money the series is making. They can literally pull this nice woman who is a convenience store owner. [00:33:53] Speaker C: I mean, she clearly wants to. She clearly wants to have sex with Venom in the third. [00:33:57] Speaker B: She's like, not. [00:33:58] Speaker C: She's a little weird. [00:33:59] Speaker A: She is weird. But it's more just the fact that, like, it's because the easiest choice would be just to have Venom show up for a second, like, in the no Way Home. [00:34:07] Speaker C: Oh, for sure. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Is it Far from. Gosh. Is it Far From Home? And is three far From Home or two? Three no Way Home. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Well, no Way Home is three. Yeah. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. [00:34:17] Speaker B: I just. [00:34:17] Speaker A: My brain. But, like, yeah, we have. We get the Tom Hardy cameo in that film, but, like, you would think with a cross, they would do it again in some way, shape or form, but nope, Mrs. Chet, because that's what the series is. The series has eddie, it has Mrs. Chin, it's got Michelle Williams and Dan. Like, it's like. It has actual characters where it's like. Yeah, it's. I think I enjoy. I like that dynamic between Anne and Dan. I think a bit more into. Just because it's like. It's funny to think that Dan doesn't know about the Venom situation until two, when Michelle Williams is just talking about Venom in public with him to random people. [00:34:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and it's hilarious. Just the repeated willingness of these characters, like, almost immediately to, like, accept what's happening and buy into it and work with it. And it just. I don't know, it just makes it more funny and fun and engaging. Whereas, like, if it was you know, Eddie constantly telling all these people, like, hey, I have this alien inside me, or whatever, and them just being like, yeah, whatever, freak. Like, get away from me. Yeah, that would. That would be what most movies would probably do. And it'll be kind of, well, very repetitive. [00:35:34] Speaker C: Or they'd have, like, teary scenes of Venom revealing. Or like, Eddie revealing his horrible predicament and how it's terrible and, like, it's eating inside and like, it's just. This is not this movie. [00:35:46] Speaker B: No, Just a little rat man who has embraced his alien friend. [00:35:50] Speaker C: Rat man. I mean, basically, especially by that third one. [00:35:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It is just again, for. Because there are plenty. Especially in 2024. Oh, my gosh. You can throw a dart at a board and get at least one or two big blockbuster films where a established, talented actor, actress is just phoning it in for a paycheck. It's hard not. It's easy to find that. And with Michelle Williams, it is so clear. Even though Anne isn't given a lot and basically is like. She basically gets fucked over at the very beginning, is mad at Eddie, and then kind of comes around to be like, you know what? This alien, he's doing some good for you. [00:36:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:31] Speaker A: And that's like, all her thing is in the first one. And Michelle Williams is not genuinely phoning it in. She knows exactly. Like we. You've. You both have said she knows what she's in. She knows exactly what she's in. She's going for it. And she probably has never seen the film in its entirety. [00:36:49] Speaker C: It definitely feels like everyone involved is just having fun with Tom Hardy because he's having fun with it. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Yeah, like. [00:36:57] Speaker C: Yeah, like, that feels. And they all. They all agree that it's stupid. I mean. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Oh, my God, It's. [00:37:04] Speaker C: I mean, if you. [00:37:05] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's like they're all doing a bit together and it's more fun to be in on the bit and going full force into the bit to, like, be miming along. [00:37:13] Speaker C: I mean, Woody Harrelson's performance and Let. [00:37:15] Speaker B: There Be Carnage is like, yeah, just. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Let There Be Carnage in general. [00:37:19] Speaker C: Yeah. That is just by far the best of the three. [00:37:23] Speaker B: Well, we will get to Woody Harrelson here in a minute, but I do. Before we move on to Let There Be, I know. I want to talk a little bit about Carlton Drake, the villain of our first film. How do. How do we feel about Riz Ahmed's Carlton Drake in this. [00:37:38] Speaker A: Here's the thing. We. At this point in his career, I will be completely Honest, by this point in his career, I genuinely at the time hated his performance in Nightcrawler. I've come back around from it. I think he's phenomenal. I think he's genuinely good in it. I think I just didn't know. I had never seen him in anything else. [00:37:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:57] Speaker A: Didn't know what he was really trying to do. And it threw me off. Compared to, like, against Jake Gyllenhaal. [00:38:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:03] Speaker A: And then after that is Rogue One, where that's a film where he is doing an incredible job with getting three lines to really say he does a. [00:38:11] Speaker B: Great job doing nothing. [00:38:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Because again, so this is like a pre Sound of Metal. And also he had, like, an HBO series where he was really beloved in. It's called the Night Before. So, like, this is. This is like, his. Probably his biggest film, excluding Rogue outside of Star wars, that people are going to see him in. And I think Riz Ahmed as a phenomenal actor is miscast horribly. [00:38:36] Speaker C: I mean, I don't think it's his fault necessarily, because obviously, like, you guys are saying its script is very much, like, in some ways by the numbers. And, like, if he had been. If they had known what Hardy was going to do with the character and that it would work, like, I have faith that they would have, like, rewritten that villain to be more colorful. [00:39:00] Speaker A: But, like, Carlton Drake's introduction is like, a little girl raises her hand and everyone laughs at her and goes, now, now, I'm sorry, little girl. Some people like to shut down the thinkers of the world. Like, that's like his first fucking thing he says to people. And then, like, later in the film, there's, like, when they're trying to, like, cure cancer or just, like, use the symbiotic relationship, and they're like, it's a pity we can't get more humans or some shit like that. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Like, he just, like, yeah, he. [00:39:27] Speaker A: It feels like he understands a little bit of what is, like, going to work with this film. But, like. Yeah, I just don't know fully if it's like, I don't think he can be as nasty as I think the role needs to be or as comedically villainous. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Well, and I think part of it, too, is. I mean, kind of like Evan said, the script is not really leaning all the way in because, like. No, yeah, there are definitely moments where Riz Ahmed's coming across as very silly. And partly that feels like, okay, it's just silly because it's bad writing and he's a lame character and it's partly silly because Riz Ahmed is, you know, really kind of hamming it. But when he's having it, if you look at like on the page, the dialogue and the character he's working with is not especially over the top. I mean, yes, he's. He has stupid lines, but he's not like this ridiculous, you know, cartoon character, this colorful character, like Evan said. And so it's this weird mishmash where, yeah, Riz Ahmed's not probably the best choice for this type of character. But also the character feels like he's in this weird gray area between maniacal cartoon villain and stereotypical boring banal sci fi villain. [00:40:49] Speaker A: It's just funny to think that Reese Ahmed at this point in his career has more chemistry with Bore Gullet than Eddie Brock Borg. Just because. Yeah, I mean, it is just. There's just. There's certain beats in the film where it's like if they just let the freak fly a little bit more. Which we do get. [00:41:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:13] Speaker A: That I like in later. In a later installment. It is very much like, we could do more with this and. But as it stands, I not really the biggest fan of the first one. I think it's watchable, but I think it's fairly forgettable and I think it's like not a bad film. I just, I just remember initially we both saw it in theaters, Andy. I both know we looked at each other and we're like, what in the fuck is this? Like, is this going to do anything? Like, this is such a weird. Especially with the Eminem drop. The Eminem themes, that is. That is some Nickelback or Chad Kroger and fucking Spider man shit in the modern day that, like, to be fair, I've asked more films to do that. I want more of that. Yeah. It's just shocking to even think about it. [00:42:04] Speaker B: I have warmed. I have warmed up on the first Venom over the years. I mean, I frankly enjoy it. It's not like a great movie by any means, but like, I have. I have about as much fun with it as I do of like the kind of mid tier Fast and Furious movies in that it's like, okay, this is a fun. The players are clearly having a good time and the lead is dynamic and goofy and off the wall. It does at a certain point descend into gray poop monsters throwing shit at each other. [00:42:45] Speaker A: Yeah. The third act is. [00:42:47] Speaker C: I felt that way about the first Venom for a long time, especially after Let There Be Carnage came out. And like, yeah, does everything that the first Venom does well, but actually like that is just the movie. It is. There's no, like, extra fat on that movie. It's just insane from start to finish. But re. Watching the first Venom, like, especially now, like, Hardy's totally insane performance stands out so well. Like, yeah. It's so hard to fault it for, like, the areas where it plays it safe because he just doesn't play it safe at all with the performance. Like, he's just completely out there. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And we're seeing. And we're seeing that in the aftermath of the fact that because of Venom's popularity, we got. We're getting. We got Morbius, we got Mana Web, and we're also getting Craven the Hunter. [00:43:36] Speaker C: Craven is gonna be the end of that. [00:43:38] Speaker A: I think so, too. But, like, I think it just really shows just the fact that, like, the reason why those films have not hit the same way is because they have actors. Especially in Morbius's case. [00:43:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Where. And again, Craven hasn't come out at this point. But we're already talking as if we know what it's gonna be like. I mean, but, like. Yeah, but, like, Morbius has an actor who takes it way too seriously. [00:44:02] Speaker C: Sure. [00:44:03] Speaker A: While Venom is just like, fuck it, we're going. We're gonna just try it. [00:44:07] Speaker C: What's so interesting is, like, that's true. But also the Venom movie has the Venom. All three of the movies have such a. Like, a deeply corny but, like, sweet heart to them because there is a relationship between Venom and Eddie that is relatable and sweet and, like, Morbius has jack shit. [00:44:29] Speaker A: Nothing even. [00:44:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:31] Speaker C: Even if Jared Leto was actually Jesus, like he thinks he is, it still wouldn't make that movie any better. [00:44:37] Speaker B: Like, sure. Yeah. [00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah, It's. Yeah. It shows just how much a charismatic performance can kind of uphold weaker aspects of a film. Just having Hardy just be there and just be like, yeah, he's this. It's funny to think that we have in the Sony, you know, those Spider man scraps films, we have an actor who considers themselves method and one of the best actors in their generation in Leto. And then we have Hardy, who hates even being thought of as a method actor. [00:45:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:12] Speaker A: And I. And like it. Just having the fact that, like, the latter is arguably much more interesting because that man puts method acting energy into fucking Venom. [00:45:21] Speaker C: I mean, I know this isn't the point of this episode, but of. Of all the spy. I mean, obviously, Madame Webb is a completely insane thing. I can't believe they made. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:45:31] Speaker C: But like, Morbius, of all of them is still the one that is the most baffling because, like, Madame Web. Yeah. They're trying to get all the spider girls in. They're trying to court a specific demographic, like, with female Spider Man. Right. And like. Yeah, I guess I get Craven because he's like a legit Spider man villain that they were trying to play keep away from Marvel with. But like Morbius, I just don't what they were thinking. [00:45:55] Speaker A: I would. [00:45:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:56] Speaker B: I mean, Morbius is a character that a lot of people wouldn't even recognize as a Spider man villain, if at all. [00:46:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:03] Speaker B: You know, he's just super Dracula. [00:46:06] Speaker C: Like, I mean, he's just a vampire. I mean. Yeah, he's a Blade. Well, I mean, he's a Spider man villain, but like, generally he fights Blade. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Hangs out with Blade. And. And if people are, like, aware of Morbius because of, like, the cartoon aspect of it. [00:46:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:23] Speaker A: It's like, Right. Most people would think they're like, oh, doesn't Morbius have, like, bloodsuckers on his hands? Because he doesn't bite people in the fucking cartoon. So it's like, even then, like, people's ideas of what Morbius are is so much. God, it's fucking Morbius. [00:46:39] Speaker B: I can't believe we don't have to talk about mediocre villains because we can talk about great, masterful villain performances with Let There Be Carnage. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Again, because when we. I didn't see Leather Be Carnage in theaters. I was just kind of like. I bet. Honestly, in a packed theater that didn't know what we were going to get into, I can see it being just like a fever dream. [00:47:06] Speaker B: Did we get a screening of Let There Be Carnage in Heaven? [00:47:09] Speaker C: No, no, I saw it at 8:30pm on a Thursday night, like, with Mr. [00:47:13] Speaker B: I think I went to. Yeah, I think I went to see it by myself. [00:47:17] Speaker C: The moment when he does the wheelie from the crime scene, Mitch and I were just like, holy shit, this is the best movie of all time. [00:47:27] Speaker B: So they got motion capture extraordinaire Andy Serkis to helm this second film. And I'm a little fuzzy on if Serkis was like, really, you know, throwing his hat in the ring to make this or if they just asked him and he said yes. But it's an interesting shift in a lot of ways. [00:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I mean, at this point, his long, quote unquote awaited Jungle Book adaptation had just got. Just came out with Netflix and is like, technically his first live action directed film. [00:48:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:10] Speaker A: And I wouldn't be surprised if it's. If you see how well the first Venom does. And someone's asking you to basically do at least a solid, to like a second steal, like a second base dealer of a film where it's like, this will make its money back, like. And you're going to work with your friend Tom Hardy, because I feel like they knew each other before in some way, shape or form, or at least they're very chummy in press junkets and stuff, which, I mean, that might be just Hardy's charisma. He's. [00:48:38] Speaker C: Circus is definitely part of the family now. He's all over the Last Dance, even though he's not directed. [00:48:45] Speaker A: Oh, God, yeah. We'll talk about that for sure. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Part of La Familia. [00:48:54] Speaker A: But, I mean, I feel like that's just because I don't. I don't ever remember hearing that, at least personally hearing that and thinking it's a bad replacement. Because I think we all agree that Ruben Fleischer was there. [00:49:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:08] Speaker A: Like, in terms of direction wise, I. [00:49:10] Speaker C: Mean, Sergis had directed Breathe, which was kind of an intolerable Oscar bait movie in 2017. [00:49:17] Speaker B: Oh, shit. [00:49:18] Speaker A: He did. Oh, my God. [00:49:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. With Andrew Garfield and Claire Foyer. I didn't like that. And obviously he had his Mowgli movie, but I feel like it could just be that he came on to Let There Be Carnage because there was an opening and he's building directing. [00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure Sony was interested in him because of, you know, the CGI motion capture character background and, you know, it's a sensible fit. I. I don't know about you guys, but I could not have expected the kind of, you know, crazy tonal leap he sort of brought to. Obviously he didn't write the movie. Kelly. Marcel wrote all three of these movies, but there's just a kind of frantic absurdity to this movie that is not present at least as consistently in the first film. Yeah. Which kind of surprised me from Circus. I kind of thought Circus would like, you know, maybe he'd bring more action and complex character choreography to it, but not necessarily like, loony shit. I mean, he's. [00:50:31] Speaker C: He. I think Hardy and Marcel had more say in the story of the. I mean, I don't know if it's Circus who brought it or them being like, hey, look, this is what we're going to do. This is the tone of this movie. [00:50:45] Speaker A: Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised. At a certain point, Circus, early on into production, is talking about ideas or, like, certain things about the films. Then Hardy just, like, pats his shoulder and goes, andy, it's a Venom sequel. Like let's just do the silliest aspect of what. Because like yeah, the thing that I think sells Let Them Be Carnage the easiest out of the three of them. And I think it's one of the things that kind of makes Last Dance at times. Unfortunately not in a lot of ways as fun as this is. The fact that it's like this film is like looking. It's almost like Eddie is looking at the audience being like, we know this is dumb as shit. We know we're doing some stupid things. We are doing some wild things in the plot. When it comes to a love story between Cletus Kasady and his old buddy from Shriek. From the Shriek. We know that we're also going to be doing basically a breakup story between Eddie and Venom where he basically is at a rave and people think he's talking about his gay lover or just like his husband when he talks about I've left Eddie and just like it also, gosh, his name escapes me. I gotta remember Stephen Graham. Stephen Graham. I had no idea. He was just like. He is like weirdly intense and silly in this movie and is like again an actor who like a lot of people would probably know from a lot of things. But maybe in recently like Al Capone in Boardwalk Empire and like he's been around for a long time as a British actor and like he just like comes in running and it's just like, I hate you, Brock. There's something about you I don't like. I hate it. And also he's tied into the Cletus Cassidy love triangle and like the flashback in cuz he thinks he killed his love. And it's just like the movie is running at 10 miles a minute. And I think that's to the benefit of the film because I think the first Venom in my opinion is a little bit. It drags a bit in the middle and then it kind of gets to an ending where it's like now I'm watching like Andy said, goop monsters fight to a certain degree was with this there are goop monsters fighting. But it's a lot more creative because now we're having at a church where a makeshift wedding is supposed to happen and there's bells and there's like three different fights happening at once. And Dan's there like, well, yeah. [00:53:21] Speaker B: And the whole thing is just made all the more manic by Woody Harrelson in like Natural Born Killers mode. Just chewing the out of everything. His the worst haircut in cinematic history. [00:53:37] Speaker A: And to Think, like, his wig in. In the mid credits scene in Venom was bad enough, and then he gets his haircut. Let there be carted. It has hilarious lines. I think Harrelson, again, the reason why, in my opinion, Venom 2 is the best is because you have a villain who's on the same wacky level as we have. [00:53:56] Speaker C: I mean, it's inarguably the best of the three. Like, it is the one that elevates the entire franchise to another level. [00:54:06] Speaker B: Stop laughing, Logan. I'm trying to think. [00:54:08] Speaker A: No, it's just like. It just like Cletus's whole thing. And again, I guess if we didn't say it already, spoiler alert on all three of these movies. Like the fact that Cletus Kasady, the fact that Harrelson has the audacity to try and sell the line, I just wanted a friend. I just wanted a friend, Eddie. I wanted to be your friend. It's the funniest. It's like, this movie is dumb. [00:54:33] Speaker B: When was that ever actually happening? [00:54:35] Speaker A: But I will. [00:54:36] Speaker C: I mean, it's a lot of these movies. I mean, like, look, you always have villains coming to these superhero movies, and, like, they get to be colorful and excited. Like. Yeah, but like, in a movie like this where Eddie Brock is already so over the top and so, so exciting, it's. It's hilarious that they got Woody in and Woody was just like, can I do that? And they were like, go bigger. Like, go even bigger than that. Yeah, Tom Hardy's not going to be competing with you for attention. Like, go ahead, be insane. Don't worry about upstaging him. [00:55:10] Speaker A: This trilogy, by the. At the end, by the time this episode is ends in this recording and I edit it and I put it out there, this trilogy is going to be mainly out of my brain. Except for the one line in Let There Be Carnage where Woody Harrelson in High Intensity goes, I've tasted blood before, Eddie, and that tasted. We. That did. That's not blood. It's like just lines like that just permeate this movie in a way that. [00:55:40] Speaker B: Like, I could have never expected. This serial killer, who's been in prison for years is just, like, immediately suspect of some sort of supernatural thing going on. In Eddie Brock, in this journalist, we get a. [00:55:56] Speaker A: Our villain exists because our villain bit our hero. Yeah, that's like. It's also funny that now, because of Disney owning parts of Fox and just Sony being like, sure have some of our films on, like, Disney plus and whatnot. It's wild to think that you can watch, like, the Venom films. You could be like, oh, my gosh, I really liked no Way Home. I really liked Far From Home. Wait, is that Venom? Let's watch Venom and you watch Let There Be Carnage. And it's just batshit. It's just a batshit movie about two people, about a symbiote and a human where the human's depressed, the symbiote tries to cheer him up, and then they have a fight. I love them fighting them fighting. [00:56:42] Speaker C: Hits him, heals them and hits him again. [00:56:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of great. I mean, the first one had had a healthy amount, but, like, there's a lot of great physical comedy in this. [00:56:53] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Whoever. Whoever watched the first film, whether it was on, like, who was on the crew of the original Venom or a producer that just didn't show up until the second film. Whoever said, hey, you know how in the first film there's literally one single scene where Venom makes this weird little head that comes out of Eddie and starts talking to him? You should do that all the time. That, man hopefully got a bonus, because I think that's what also elevates Venom 2 in its silliness and comedy. Totally is the amount of times, even in public, Venom will just pop out of Eddie. [00:57:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Talk to him. Like, there's two guys walking down the street. [00:57:31] Speaker C: It's such a strong visual that they make up a bunch of ridiculous rules in the third one just to allow them to keep doing it. [00:57:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:39] Speaker C: Like. [00:57:42] Speaker A: God, Jesus. It just. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Let There Be Carnage is just absolute chaos in the way that I, like, I wanted. I wanted from that first film. And I'm like, hey, at least we got one of them. That I think kind of embraces that chaos. [00:57:59] Speaker B: I mean, well, the funniest thing to me, not that happens in the movie, but just conceptually about Let There Be Carnage, is that it kind of does. It's kind of a repetition of the same thing that happened with the first movie in the sense of, like, okay, we have this character in Venom who everybody loves because he's this unstoppable, badass antihero guy. Movie comes out and he's a goofball loser. In the sequel, we're going to introduce all time, you know, Venom rival character Carnage that everybody loves for being once again an unstoppable, unfeeling badass killer. And he's going to be even more stupid and insane and nutty and, like, I can remember the fan, I guess, quote, unquote, outrage happening all over again for Let There Be Carnage. Although I'm sure it was to a lesser degree because people were already had already sort of jumped ship after the first movie. [00:59:05] Speaker A: Well, it's also because when Carnage shows up, unlike when Venom initially shows up in the first film, as soon as Carnage shows up, he is genuinely causing carnage. You have that prison fight scene where he is just slaughtering Tornado. Like all those. Yeah, the Tornado, like, it's very much like. It's almost like they were aware that there's probably gonna happen again. And so they were like, ah, fuck it. We just gotta. We got more money. [00:59:29] Speaker B: He's gotta have him kill. [00:59:30] Speaker A: Yeah, we have to be a serial killer in some way, shape or form. And. Oh, my gosh, I just remember when this was coming, when this came out, like, hearing people talk about it and being like, that's not real. That doesn't. [00:59:47] Speaker C: That is shocking. Shocking amount of money. [00:59:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:59:52] Speaker A: The shot of Venom in glow sticks raving. [00:59:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:56] Speaker A: Like, went all over the place. Like, cam rips were all over the place. And I was like, this is insane. [01:00:02] Speaker C: When he says out of the Eddy closet. [01:00:04] Speaker A: Yes. Again, it is the fact that it's just like, everyone is this nice costume, man. At this fucking gigantic symbiote. [01:00:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:00:14] Speaker A: Be like, wow, that looks so good. And it's like, awesome. Hey, good for you. You left your boyfriend. Like, it's like this. That is like, wild to think that, like, this is a studio movie that is, like, gonna make at least 300, $400 million. [01:00:29] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a Venom movie. [01:00:31] Speaker A: It's a fucking Venom movie. It's wild that that's a Venom movie. [01:00:34] Speaker C: So, like, let's. Let's move on to the Last Dance, because I think we all agree on Let There Be Carnage, but I think we disagree on the last day. [01:00:43] Speaker A: I. I will want to ask, just. [01:00:44] Speaker B: Out of curiosity, wider spread here. [01:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you. So you. Do you both know where I stand on the Last Dance? [01:00:51] Speaker B: I know you absolutely hated it. [01:00:53] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I get that impression. [01:00:56] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [01:00:58] Speaker B: We've pretty much got the benchmarks of the scale represented here because we've got. Logan absolutely hated it. Yeah, I was kind of completely unbothered by it. And Evan, you know. Speak for yourself. [01:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I want Evan to start. I want Evan to sell it first to me. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Look, I think that the Last Dance has by far the worst non Venom stuff out of all three. Like, stuff in Area 55 tedious. And it is repetitive and it is just. I mean, there are aspects of it that are so silly. That I enjoy. Like, I love absolutely awful Juno Temple in this movie. Like, she's a good actress and she's terrible. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:39] Speaker C: I love how she has to drive her stupid ass truck into Area 55, down an elevator and, like, into the middle of the lab simply so they can establish that truck at that location so they can use it later. [01:01:50] Speaker B: Like, right. [01:01:50] Speaker C: She puts shoes in her locker so that eventually Tom Hardy can wear them. Like, they, they. They have all this, like. They're so meticulous in setting up the most mundane stuff in this, like, subplot that is completely uninterested. But then I think, like, I think the Venom stuff is all great. Like, I think everything that goes on with Tom Hardy in this movie is, like, a lot of fun. And it's them, once again, knowing which buttons they want to hit for their, like, big finale. And I think they mostly hit them really well. And it's definitely a whiplash within the movie, but it didn't. I mean, whatever. [01:02:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I can safely say that the biggest selling point for this movie, for me, was that you really kind of get to reap the fruits of the first two movies labor in terms of what they do with Eddie and Venom as a duo, as characters. There's a lot of scenes in this movie that are, like, kind of surprisingly, you know, melancholy and just willing to, like, sit with Eddie's sadness. And the ways that Venom actually, like, supports Eddie through difficulty and how they work together and that sort of thing and. Yeah. You know, do they all land perfectly in my mind? No. But, you know, there's. There's something really admirable about the fact that I was feeling any sort of, you know, emotional payoff in this kind of mess of a movie that's a sequel to, you know, two other messes, you know, to varying effect. And so, you know. Yeah. Yes. There's a lot of really dumb kind of worthless shit, I think, going on in this movie, but, you know, it surprised me with how well it delivered on their dynamic. [01:03:49] Speaker C: What'd you think, Logan? [01:03:52] Speaker A: Here's the thing. I mean, the thing about it is, like, once I watched Let There Be Carnage, I was like, I have a strange feeling it's going to be hard to, like, tap that again. [01:04:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:04:04] Speaker A: Especially in the same energy, especially with Circus being gone. Because I think one thing I didn't mention when we talk, we're talking about carnage is I think circus actually adds an eye in the direction when it comes to certain choices that is made into that. You don't see Fleischer really doing the first Venom at all? Yeah, creatively, well, he knows his way. [01:04:21] Speaker B: Around shooting like CGI characters, things like that. [01:04:25] Speaker A: That when it was basically like, by the way, Venom the Last Dance is coming out in October. The writer of all three films who hasn't really directed anything is going to be directing this film. And I don't know, it's got Eddie and Venom in it. Like, the trailer shows the Venom horse, which is a blast. One of the best parts of the movie. But like, I, I don't know, the film just has contractual obligation written over so much of it that it just like I, I like again, Eddie and Venom is like, if you like the first two films, give this one a shot. Like, it's definitely like there are good moments here. I even think there's one emotional moment that like has Venom in it where I was like, God, this actually kind of works. It's just a shame that it's coming at this moment in the film. We're like, we're at Area 51 and this is a fucking shit show. And like everything that is happening is like, this is happening to characters that were just introduced in this film and I don't have any interest in. This is a third film in a multi in a billion plus dollar trilogy that is adding at least eight characters in the third film. It is a plot that has a villain that doesn't get out of his seat the entire time, but instead sends a lackey to do most of the work until the very end. And is a weird film where, I mean, all three of these films are weird, but this one's weird in a way where it's like this to me just feels like it has the least amount of love in a way because of like there's literally a scene in Vegas. It was like the one scene that blew my mind where we just had the alien hippie family stuff. I do not really remember much about it. I have pushed that out. I like Rhys. I think it's maybe on a rewatch, if I ever decide to hurt myself that way, I could maybe get something more out of that part. But like, when they get to Vegas where I'm expecting Mrs. Chin dancing and whatnot. Yeah, it's all over the trailer. When Eddie gets out of the car, he stands around and basically looks at the camera and goes, what's the plot again? And we're an hour in. I was like, oh, this is the type of movie this is compared to, like with Venom 2, where it's like Venom 2 is like, hey, don't worry about the plot. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Just like, did you see that Woody Harrelson killed that copy? That was kind of. He stole that car. That was kind of funny. And it's like, in, like, I still think in the Last dance, how when Mrs. Chen shows up, it's a hilariously random scene. It makes no sense. She's just in Vegas. But, hey, Mrs. Chen's there. She's just hanging out. But when Mrs. Chen shows up and says, you have to come up to my private suite, it is a hard cut to Area 51, the blandest set in the entire film. [01:07:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:29] Speaker A: And I went, this is the biggest, hardest shift. I think a blockbuster film has taken me from being, like, somewhat interested to lost all interest. [01:07:39] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I just keep doing that five stuff. Like, I just ultimately didn't really bother me. Like, the other stuff worked well enough for me. Like, it's not a cohesive whole, like the second movie. But, I mean, I. I disagree that it all comes from the sense of contractual obligation, because I think if they had something that was made without clear interest from, you know, the star and the writer and the director, it would feel a lot more like Venom. And instead, it feels like they. They were trying to do something specific with this. I think. I think the biggest part that's probably contractual obligation is the inclusion of Null at all. Because Sony very much wants its own, like, binding agent. But, like, Null is dumb as shit in the comics, too. Like. Oh, yeah, they're very new, too. I mean, it didn't exist when Venom 1 came out. [01:08:38] Speaker A: I'm not even. Again, there is. I have no tie to the comics with. [01:08:43] Speaker C: No. [01:08:44] Speaker A: That is not even why. It is just weird how, you know, he is. Apparently, again, he's a big band in this. [01:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:52] Speaker A: For some reason. And if Sony really wanted to sell the fact that he's in this movie, why was he not in the first trailer? And it took months to get him to, like, pop up. And, like, they didn't even say it was circus until right before the film came out. [01:09:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:09:07] Speaker A: And then to find out that not only is no. Not gonna do anything, that we have a villain that they're pushing in trailers that doesn't do anything, but he is entirely cg. Like, it has no circus. I mean, Circus, of course, is known for motion capture performances, but it just threw me for a loop. [01:09:24] Speaker C: I mean, I would bet you that initially Null was mentioned and they did not have him on screen, and someone was like, you have to put him on screen. Maybe I Don't think the rest of the movie makes a whole lot of sense if the. Whatever the symbiote, whatever the monsters are, if they don't have a master. [01:09:41] Speaker B: Right. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Just. [01:09:43] Speaker B: Well, but yeah, it's. There's a. There's a discordance to it because emotionally it feels like the movie really knows what it's going for. Yeah, it's really treating it as a final chapter, you know, for kind of Eddie and Venom's story. Even if that's just kind of, you know, could be a fake out or whatever. But, like, emotionally, that's the tone they're reaching for. And meanwhile, like, in terms of the kind of plot trappings and things, you're expanding exponentially and bringing in all these things. You're bringing in Null, you're bringing in all these other symbiotes. You're, you know, teasing things at the end for ways to continue or whatever. [01:10:25] Speaker C: I mean, can you. Can you imagine a movie with Morbius Madam, some, like, Juno Temples, like, awful lightning Symbiote, like, teaming up the fight against Null. [01:10:36] Speaker A: But it's. It's so well established because she has a lightning bolt scar. Because she was. It is again, it is. [01:10:45] Speaker B: It just says. It says something about how our traumas empower us. [01:10:50] Speaker A: It. I mean, I don't know. I. I want. I just. I was just kind of. There's a part of me where it's like going in. I was like, I just want to have a fun time. And personally, like, while there were moments where I was like, hey, it's pretty fun having a good old time. There is way too much window dressing. There's way too much. We have to do this. We have to say this. We have to add, like, oh, by the way, this is why the plot is happening. You remember that one time Eddie died in the first film? You know, the film that happened six years ago? [01:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:21] Speaker A: Well, now they're a certain thing where every time they transform this monster who. I don't. Is it Xenophage? [01:11:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:31] Speaker A: Which just looks like it just. It's a nothing monster to me. Like, it's like it's there. [01:11:37] Speaker B: The one distinct thing about it that was kind of cool is how it, like, shreds people out the back of its cool design. [01:11:45] Speaker A: And it's also like, I will again, even though I do not like this film, I will give this movie props in terms of, like, pushing the hard PG13 in terms of just like. Yeah, the whole eating the heads at the very beginning. That's the closest any of these films. Have gotten to, like, getting to have to be like, well, yeah, I have to show some blood now. Yeah. You just saw Venom eat all these heads and they got away with it in a PG13. [01:12:10] Speaker C: I found it pretty delightful how they, like, introduced these heroic symbiotes and then they die in, like, the most graphic and horrible way possible. [01:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:18] Speaker C: Like just getting shredded and turned into dust. [01:12:21] Speaker A: Also, can I. Can I clarify too? Because I don't. I watched the end of. I watched a certain part of Let There Be Carnage a few times because I was confused as to what it was implying with. [01:12:30] Speaker B: Oh, was it the scene where he makes a jump drive out of his symbiote? Yeah, I've watched that scene a lot. [01:12:36] Speaker A: No, I'm. That too. No, but it's a Stephen Graham. His Mulligan. [01:12:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:42] Speaker A: When Mulligan dies, quote unquote, in the second film, comes back to life with, like, this, like, this blue look in his eye almost. If it's implying that he has. [01:12:52] Speaker C: He gets the toxin symbiote. That's the name of the character comic is. [01:12:57] Speaker A: Okay. And that's. So that's supposed to imply that he has the symbiote. [01:13:00] Speaker C: Right? Right. He has a symbiote. Symbiote. [01:13:03] Speaker A: But they also. Don't they give him more blue? I thought that was just like. I thought they were just saying, oh, by the way, Mulligan's not dead. We're just gonna give him a blue symbiote because he's here. Like, it's like that was. [01:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it. [01:13:14] Speaker A: It just was. [01:13:15] Speaker C: It's. It sets up car at the end of Let There Be Carnage. It sets up that character Toxin, who I. I don't know that much about, but, like, is apparently popular. People are angry right now. He's shredded. Like, unceremoniously shredded. [01:13:30] Speaker A: He. Oh, my gosh, he's. [01:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:13:33] Speaker A: It's funny how, like, again, it shows just a vastly different type of character, type of film or character. Where it's like when Mulligan shows up and meets Brock for the first time and almost last time in the Last Dance. It's almost like they've never met before. Like, it's. The. The energy is so much different. Where it's just like, I understand now. I get it. You're not a real Brock. It's like, this is so weird that we're having this conversation right now in Area 51, no less. And the one scientist who is way too good at symbiote, even though, like, it's. Again, shows how Funny. It is where the first film pushes so hard the importance of Brock and Venom, like symbiosis because you can't do that with most people. And then you cut to these fucking scientists who are just bonding with every single and dying profusely. [01:14:28] Speaker B: Well, and I love how it's, you know, it's like effusively like wholesome and heroic, how all these symbiotes are like coming together and working together and you know, Eddie's kind of leading them and things like that. And then, yeah, they're just, they're just slaughtered. And it's, it's this weird. I don't know, the movie overall kind of has this additional sheen of like, optimism and light heartedness in contrast to its more extreme, like, violence and bleaker resolutions to most of the characters. It's just a weird, It's a weird thing. It, it does. [01:15:11] Speaker A: It just is such. And it's not even because of the title of the podcast. It's just an odd movie. It's just, it just genuinely is like, it's one of those films, like, where it also will. I will say, and this really had nothing to do with my review of Last Dance, but like, it was like one of the worst theater experiences I had had in the longest time where it's like it wasn't just me not being interested in the film. Like, everyone in the theater wasn't interested to the point where like, people were watching like basketball games while they were playing. And like, people were like, hey, please, please stop doing that. And like, and like, they did stop. But like, when the film gets to the Venom sacrifice and Eddie wakes up in the hospital bed, the people that were making that loud noise just like, we're about to leave, and then they just stood there and watched the rest of the film because I thought it was going to be the end of the ridiculous. And the craziest thing is I wasn't mad because I was like, I don't know what this movie is going to do in the end. [01:16:12] Speaker C: It's funny because my audience was really engaged with it. I'm glad. [01:16:16] Speaker A: Again, I don't think either one of you are wrong or anything. I wish I was on your side, Evan. [01:16:22] Speaker C: I just, I mean, look, I. [01:16:24] Speaker A: The. [01:16:24] Speaker C: The way, you know, the way in which Eddie Brock and Venom have this completely insane, slapstick, yet emotional relationship between a goo monster and, you know, totally disheveled, increasingly disheveled Tom Hardy, like practically. [01:16:41] Speaker A: A homeless man at this point, like. [01:16:44] Speaker C: One of the totally arbitrary running gags of the Last Dance is He only ever has, like, one shoe. Like, he keeps losing his shoes. He's basically like this homeless man. And, like, he just loves his buddy who's this alien goo monster who looks terrified objective and eats people's heads. Like, all of that stuff works so well. And it's so unique to me that, like, I forgive the third movie and the first movie. It's like I live with the mediocre aspects of them because it, you know, he. [01:17:21] Speaker B: Because you buy the core of their dynamics. Yes. [01:17:23] Speaker C: They do a wheelie for no reason. [01:17:26] Speaker A: Like. [01:17:27] Speaker C: Like, because Venom's constantly giving these, like, thoughtful statements to man on Earth. [01:17:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, it's. I think that. Yeah, it just. Again, the one emotional moment. Again, it's so little, but it's like when Venom thanks the child for the chocolate. [01:17:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:17:46] Speaker A: Like, that's like the one time the movie was like, that's so cute. But the thing is, is, like, he's saying that to a character. I couldn't care any less in a finale that we rushed to get to. And I know that I. I mean. [01:17:59] Speaker C: They really needed to bring Michelle well back. [01:18:02] Speaker A: It's like such. [01:18:04] Speaker B: It's such a strange, I don't know, choice, I guess, that. I mean, Kelly Marcel, who wrote all of these movies and is now directing and writing this third movie, just ditched any and all, not just characters other than Stephen Graham's character, but, like, also kind of narrative threads. I mean, like, sure, Eddie. Eddie being a journalist, even a failed journalist is like, not. It's barely brought up in this movie. He's not in San Francisco, you know, he's like. It's just so separated, which is such an odd. It's so weird. Especially when you add in the, like, the null of it all and the extra symbiotes. It's like. And then. Yet the emotional core of your movie is still this consistent thing with the other two movies. It's such a strange kind of dichotomy that the movie's existing in. [01:19:00] Speaker C: Yeah, it very much feels like they had the budget. They had to meet the budget. It had to require X number of people at a certain wages, had to require them not to be cross country. Because, like, when it sets up the beginning of the Last Dance, like, what it sets up is they're gonna go on a cross country road trip and you're gonna get a road trip movie with all of the, you know, weird, classic road trip scenarios. But with Venom. [01:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [01:19:24] Speaker C: But then it's clear, oh, no, we couldn't leave Southern California. We're not Getting any farther than lost. [01:19:30] Speaker A: I think that's the contractual obligation part that I see where it's like, with Marcel and Hardy, it's clear that it's like, when it's just Eddie and Venom and they could do goofy stuff, like, just like, the whole gambling. So much fun. Eddie, I want to make so much money. Or like, when they knock the guy out, the pisses on his birks. And, like, the little moments. The little moments with Eddie and Venom are like, clearly, that's why they're doing this movie. [01:19:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:57] Speaker A: Everything in between, which unfortunately is a 80% of the film, is, like, clearly pushed upon them in a way. And again, the few months from now with Hardy and Marcel, maybe at one point, yeah, we'll get like, a Borderland situation where it's like, they'll be like, oh, by the way, like, we didn't really have any control over this. We had to do this. We got pushed out when it came to reshoots. [01:20:20] Speaker C: Or, like, I doubt it. [01:20:22] Speaker A: I mean, if it doesn't, great to a degree, but at the same time, it just. [01:20:26] Speaker C: I think there's a difference between, like, contractual obligations and saying they didn't have a hand in it and just them having the amount of money they had to spend on that part of the story. And they thought that. I mean, there's an existentialism aspect to the Last Dance, which does not really work with Noel essentially being God, and God coming down and telling these guys they can't be friends anymore. [01:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:50] Speaker C: Like. Like, and. And I can see why that is appealing. I mean, the issue, again, is like, well, B plot is just people constantly talking about. No. Like, it's not actually. No. Because you can't afford to do that. Like. [01:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it just. It just. It's just. [01:21:11] Speaker C: I think they'd stand by their product. Like, I don't think that there's. I don't think it feels like they were forced to do, you know, directly forced via studio. [01:21:22] Speaker A: Oh. I mean, it's. Again, because there is. There is these Venom energy in this film in terms of just, like, the. The amount of things in here where it's like. If you describe that this is a scene in the film, it's like, well, that sounds stupid. It's like, well, that's a Venom film. Like, take something that sounds stupid and you just kind of like, what if you add venom? Is it fun? And it's like, yeah, kind of. It can be. Like, it's best. It is. Yeah. In the last stance, a lot of it is, like, wouldn't it be fun to do a road trip with Venom? It's like. Yeah, it would be. It's like, what if we. What if we like meander for the majority of the film and then they get captured and they get sent to Area 51 and that's where the film ends. It's like, I mean, I guess to. [01:22:04] Speaker C: An area 51 that's the size of like a Meyer parking lot. [01:22:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:09] Speaker B: Just. [01:22:09] Speaker C: Just as a giant vat of acid sitting in the things under it. Press a button and it just dissolves it. It's so stupid. It's so funny. [01:22:20] Speaker A: And like, when. When like. Because we haven't really talked about him, but like Chihuahua, Edgy4, who at this point is like, he's in MCU proper. This is a man who is like everywhere in the best way, you know, good or bad. [01:22:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:22:32] Speaker A: The man's a. Demands a class act. But the fact that like there's a scene where like they have to shove this in before the finale because the finale is about to fucking gangbusters. Where like his character is. Strickland basically pushes Eddie to the. Like to his table like a wall and goes, yeah, killed my soldier. [01:22:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:22:52] Speaker A: And you have to be like, oh, that person that like the movie didn't really clarify whether or not he really. Yeah, but kind of did. And then Eddie's like, oh, I kind of feel guilty about that. It's like guys in the last fucking film, like, don't. Don't worry about that. Like, stop. [01:23:07] Speaker C: It's really strange that he feels bad about that person dying that he killed in self defense when Venom eats people's heads. [01:23:15] Speaker A: Right, Right. It's like I just. It. I mean, again, I just. There's. There's a great moment at the end of lot. There be carnage and honestly, it's like. It is probably one of my favorite moments in that film because it's got the best F bomb in a PG13. Oh yeah. I've seen a while where Cletus Kasady as a character is taking himself so seriously and talking about his woes and his tragedy, how he just wanted to be a friend to Eddie and then Venom goes, fuck this guy. And then eats him. Like, I think Last Dance needs more of those types of scenes. I think Last Dance takes itself a little too seriously anytime Brock is not on screen. [01:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah, and right. [01:23:55] Speaker A: That's. That shouldn't happen. We need at least I. You need at least Michelle or give me Dan. At least give me a little bit. [01:24:01] Speaker C: Yeah, they need a Dan. I mean, the part when Mrs. Like Ms. Chen shows, shows up, breathes life into the Las Vegas. [01:24:08] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:24:09] Speaker A: And then they just speed through that scene. They speed through the fucking dance. The fucking emotion capture on Venom is so jarring. It is how at how fast he's moving. It kind of looks like it's like the in betweens kind of look like something out of food fight. And it throws me off every time. Yeah. Like where it's clearly like you clearly had someone actually dancing on set with Mrs. Yeah. But you just like made them bigger. It just like. [01:24:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:24:38] Speaker A: And then it goes in from like regular dancing queen to like a much faster remix of it. And then the xeno fade shows up and it's. Yeah. [01:24:47] Speaker C: Because Venom. Venom is a lust for life. He can't be constrained by simple rules. [01:24:52] Speaker A: It is just. God, it's. I was really hoping out of all the like scraps that Sony's given us this year again, Madame Web is much is worse. [01:25:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:25:04] Speaker A: I'm not saying it's worse. Like, I'm saying. I'm not saying Venom's the worst. But like it just sucks that like I just wanted more of the chaos. Let there be carnage. And I think the chaos and the last dance was not intentional in some certain spaces. Like it just was like, oh, maybe we got to do this. [01:25:22] Speaker B: And it's like it's not as unrestrained. [01:25:25] Speaker C: Oh sure. [01:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:26] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just like ah. [01:25:28] Speaker C: I mean we're not even. We're not even done though. I mean we still have one more Sony release. [01:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a three. [01:25:34] Speaker C: Somehow we get three spcum. Whatever it is movies in one calendar year. [01:25:41] Speaker A: Andy has he is coined at the best. I think you called him the Sony Scraps or Marvel. [01:25:48] Speaker B: Did I say that? I thought you came up with that one of us. I just call it the sssu. The Sony Spider man less Spider man universe. [01:25:58] Speaker A: It was something like. It was like Marvel scrap. Sony's Marvel Scraps trilogy or something. We're talking about like outside of Venom. It is. It just is. [01:26:08] Speaker B: It's dire. [01:26:09] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's funny to think that like with the first Venom, it hits at the right time in 2018, in 2021. Doesn't really matter when it hits. Venom 2 got carnage. Let's go for it. And then the last dance. It feels like everyone involved, at least behind the scenes is aware of the writings on the wall in terms of like superhero films or not where they were a few like back in 2021. Yeah, we. I mean again, Sony had confidence enough in this film. That even though they basically didn't show advertising for this film for months and they had a release date for a year, at least they pushed up the release date. Like, that's very rare for, like, Phil, Stu, like, we expect, like, with Craven. Craven's been pushed back five times. [01:26:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:26:57] Speaker A: So it's like. [01:26:58] Speaker B: Yeah, we know it's not because they're confident. [01:27:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:27:00] Speaker A: So the fact that Venom the Last Dance is like, oh, by the way, it was supposed to come out and, like, maybe Halloween, we're going to do it, like, in between, like, higher up in October. It's like, that's. Hey. Shows that they make its money back. And it has. I think it's broken even to a degree. It's definitely made its money. Like, it's still making money. I think it's. It's made the least amount of money, which is just diminishing returns. It happens. It's like, I think at 450 million. So, like, that if. If Sony's gonna push an agent Venom, I guess now would be the time to do so. It just. It just is. It just. Again, it's weird to think that, like, last year. Guardians 3 was last year, right? [01:27:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:27:50] Speaker A: Guardians 3, last year is basically like a director looking at the mcu being like, the MCU is like, hey, you. We could keep some of these characters and do stuff with them. And he's like, cool. No, I'm gonna give a lot of these characters their farewells and I'm gonna let them do their thing. [01:28:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:28:08] Speaker A: And you're not gonna be able to touch them, so don't touch them. And they're like, okay, we won't touch them. And then in this, it's like with Last Dance, like, it's even like, they're very well aware that they can't even do that. So even when they give Venom sacrifice, it doesn't matter. Venom is still alive in some way, shape or form. And then. But it's. You know, it could be a different Venom. It could be like, they could say that, like, he's like. They could do a Carnage thing where, like, since Carnage in this universe is like. Like his Venom's quote unquote son is what he kept calling him is like. I mean, maybe they'll say he reincarnated. [01:28:45] Speaker C: This still did well globally, box office, but it's definitely down from the last one. And, like, Craven's gonna do dog numbers. Madame Webb obviously was a huge flop. Like, I don't know what their appetite is at this point. [01:28:58] Speaker A: Evan, are you telling me you're not gonna join the hunt this Christmas when craving. [01:29:02] Speaker C: Oh, we have our plans. We have our plans. [01:29:04] Speaker B: He'll be there. [01:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but I mean, I'm seeing it. That's what a list was made for. [01:29:11] Speaker C: Like, but, you know, I would, I would gladly see a show up for Sony's big crossover that get Michael Keaton in there. Like, I'm sure it would be so awful, but, like, I just don't know why they would put the money into it at this point. Like, it. [01:29:28] Speaker B: Well, it's kind of like, why are they. You know, there's been. They've had several projects already that's been like, why did they put the money. [01:29:34] Speaker C: It's true. [01:29:36] Speaker A: It is. [01:29:37] Speaker B: Nobody knows what makes Sony tick at this point. [01:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah, we. We've gotten. We've gotten the. We've gotten Morbius, which is basically a, like a Sony Marvel film that was made out of spite. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have any regard. I. Considering how pissed off Jared Leto was with how Joaquin Phoenix played Joker and made a billion dollars on a Joker film, I would not be surprised if Sony come to him and was like, hey, we have a film that. You could headline that he just picked that film because he was pissed off. Yeah, his, his Joker wasn't loved, so maybe his Morbius will be beloved. And the fact that we have Madame Web, which feels like a film that people were tricked into signing contracts for until they got on set. And then we have Craven, which, honestly, when it comes to the direct, like, the trailers and stuff, genuinely, there is a chance that it's a film that, like, people are like, I don't fucking know. Let's just make a Craven film. Because, like, Aaron, Aaron Taylor Johnson's performance in every trailer has the energy of like, I'm here. I got to get buff for this and wear a goofy ass outfit. I guess it'll work well as Venom is like, it's hilarious to think that Venom is the shining star because of its, like, genuine heart at the core. [01:31:00] Speaker B: Of pretty much all of these pathos. [01:31:02] Speaker A: And then the Last Dance really loses a lot of that heart because ultimately this is the heart of a bunch of scraps that really shouldn't exist without Spider Man. So it honestly has to get to a point where Hardy and Marcel are probably like, we'll do the third one. We'll have as much fun as we can with it. But guess what? Whether it flops or whether it does well, I think we're done. [01:31:26] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I think that they've been really clear that like, they. They wanted to end it on their terms. And then like, mm, it's over. [01:31:34] Speaker A: And if only they had told us their terms were maps or memories by Maroon 5, I would have. That was jarring. That was genuinely like, I was. I jokingly was like, I swear to God, if this is Memories from Maroon. And before I could finish that. Yeah. Just the fact again, the fact that this trilogy ends on Eddie Brock looking at the Statue of Liberty going, wish you were here, pal. [01:32:03] Speaker C: I love it. [01:32:04] Speaker A: Talking to his alien. [01:32:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:32:07] Speaker A: Friend. [01:32:07] Speaker C: The memory of his alien best friend, his personal goo monster. [01:32:13] Speaker A: Wild. Oh, gosh it. [01:32:17] Speaker B: What a fucking movie trilogy. [01:32:22] Speaker A: What an odd trilogy. The show is fucking made whether I like it or not. It is. It is by far. It is. Of course. It is definitely an odd trilogy. Baseline. There is nothing. There is nothing normal about this. [01:32:42] Speaker C: I mean, he couldn't have told me that there would be a Venom trilogy essentially self contained. Because it is essentially self contained. [01:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:52] Speaker C: And that each film would. If not, you know, not necessarily perfect, not necessarily consistent, but each of them would have, like a meaningful relationship between Tom Hardy and a weird voice he does. Like, I mean, that is an unbelievable thing. And they're all worth watching at least once. [01:33:15] Speaker A: Like, I mean, honestly, I know, like. [01:33:20] Speaker B: Like a genuinely laughing at Logan, trying to figure out how to respond to that. [01:33:23] Speaker A: I mean, the way that responds. I am an advocate that if you're going to hate something, you better fucking put the time in. And yeah, I do not like the Last dance, but I also wanted to watch it because again, watching the first one again, I was like, okay, it's Venom. Then I watched Let There Be Carnage and was like, well, hey, that was a really fun time. [01:33:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:46] Speaker A: And I have to finish this. [01:33:48] Speaker C: Sure. [01:33:48] Speaker A: I am, I am. I think the only time I have been a completionist and I've regretted it is when we talked about the Christmas Story sequels and we watched My God, and we watched My Summer Story and it's like one of the only things I've bought in the last 15 to 20 years that I've regretted by. Yeah, like, I am even. It's like, again, it's like one of those things. There's like, if I in the future, for some fucking reason want Let There Be Carnage, I will probably buy the other two just because it's like, well, I have them. Will I watch them though? I'm not getting 4k, I'm not getting them on 4k. [01:34:24] Speaker C: Probably be able to buy this trilogy for like 9 bucks on Blu Ray at Walmart in like 6 months. [01:34:31] Speaker A: Can I get it. Can I get a Venom trilogy on HD DVD so I have a real reason not to watch it? I just. It's the only thing I have. [01:34:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:34:40] Speaker A: Where's the HD DVD fans in the chat, can someone make sure this happens? [01:34:44] Speaker C: Well, you could really buy. You could buy the inevitable Spidey Cinematic Universe 6 Film set with the Venom trilogy, Madame Web, Morbius and kraven all in 4k uhd. [01:34:58] Speaker B: Right. And it comes with a complimentary Kraven figure. [01:35:03] Speaker C: Yeah. It comes in a popcorn bucket. [01:35:08] Speaker A: I will say at least. At least Noel didn't look at the camera and go, you know why they call me Noel? So at least that film has that above Craven the Hunter. And we haven't even had Craven yet. But like, yeah, just that when the man comes around. [01:35:24] Speaker C: Oh, God. [01:35:25] Speaker A: I don't even know how many actual trailers that movie has because it just. [01:35:29] Speaker C: Feels like there's 17 trailers coming for 17 years. So. [01:35:34] Speaker B: I mean, Right. [01:35:35] Speaker A: It's funny to think there are actors in that film that are probably even forgetting that that movie is coming out. [01:35:41] Speaker C: Probably. I mean. [01:35:44] Speaker B: Well, I think we've said all we can about this masterpiece of a trilogy. [01:35:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:52] Speaker B: And Evan, once again, I really appreciate you being here. Absolutely would have probably been a lifeless episode without you. [01:36:00] Speaker A: I am not Logan. [01:36:01] Speaker C: Just being angry for an hour and a half. [01:36:05] Speaker A: I'm just. I was like, no, I genuinely. It was. The one thing about seeing the Last Dance and not liking it is generally was like, I'm at least glad that we're doing that. We're doing this episode with you. [01:36:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:36:18] Speaker A: You can just gush about it. The biggest Venom fan that we both know and, you know, really have fun with it. [01:36:25] Speaker C: I mean, I think I'm fair. I'm not. Like, that movie has so much weakness in it. Like, it's 75% of it is terrible lab seats. But like the rest of it is. So, I mean, you know, it hits me. Right. Right in the right spot. Yeah. [01:36:39] Speaker A: It hits you where you know it's going to hit him. I guess it's going to get you right there in the fields. [01:36:43] Speaker B: Well, just before we let you go, Evan, I do want to highlight your outlet a little bit. [01:36:48] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:36:49] Speaker B: You and Nick founded Midwest Film Journal together. Right? Nick Rogers, friend of the pod. And Sam Watermeyer. Yeah. And Ali. [01:37:00] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess we all. Yeah, it's really all four of us. Yeah. [01:37:04] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:37:04] Speaker A: Wow. [01:37:06] Speaker B: And I mean, you guys are insanely prolific in just the amount of stuff you. You are able to write and write well. You guys do, obviously, new. New release reviews. You do, like seasonal or even monthly, like series on various kind of contiguous topics and things like that. And something I've really enjoyed recently that you've been doing, Evan, is your monthly film journal where you just kind of like diary your. [01:37:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:41] Speaker B: The things you've been consuming for the past month. That's a lot of fun. [01:37:46] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it's a good way to, you know, break out from just talking about new releases all the time. [01:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That can be tiring. [01:37:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:56] Speaker B: Do you. Do you guys have. You guys have Denzelberg coming up? [01:38:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we have Denzel in December. And then you would have to talk to. [01:38:04] Speaker A: Incredible. [01:38:05] Speaker C: Yeah, he has it written down what next year's topics are. And I should know off the top of my head, but I don't. But there's one. There's something at least every other month, next year. [01:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah. A different topic. [01:38:16] Speaker C: You guys are all writing about various actor showcases and stuff. [01:38:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of cool stuff happening over at Midwest Film Journal. Definitely check them out. And Evan, once again, thank you. [01:38:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:38:28] Speaker A: Yeah, Seriously, thank you. Thank you so much for being a part. [01:38:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:38:31] Speaker A: This would have not. Yeah. Like Andy said, this would have been a shell of an episode if it weren't for your inclusion. [01:38:37] Speaker C: I'm glad I could help. [01:38:38] Speaker A: So we are definitely. We are definitely thankful to have you on the this episode. And while we're done with our Thanksgiving episode, now it's time to talk about our Christmas episode. Because our first episode in December, which is the 14th. Correct, Andy? [01:38:54] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. [01:38:55] Speaker A: We are doing, in honor of the festive season, we are doing the Harold and Kumar trilogy for the holiday season. Because in case you don't know, those three films are 2004's Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle, 2008's Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay. And then of course, the reason for the season, 2010's a very special Harold and Kumar Christmas. [01:39:24] Speaker B: In 3D. [01:39:25] Speaker A: In 3D. I remember the 3D because I didn't watch it in 3D, but I remember watching the just like the cable version of it or like the streaming version and just being like, oh, wow. [01:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:37] Speaker A: But yeah, we thought it'd be. Because not only is it, of course, we have a Christmas film in the mix and try to have something a little bit fun because in a season where Christmas is shoved down your throat regardless of if you like it or not, especially movie wise, it's good to have a little bit of fun that isn't just always Christmas and It's also the 20th anniversary of Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle. [01:39:58] Speaker B: Right. [01:39:59] Speaker A: And it'll be fun to talk about that and just really dive into a series that, surprisingly, it was a longer run. Seven years. Compared to Venom, six years. [01:40:11] Speaker B: Well, and even more exciting, we'll be trying something a little bit new with our format. We'll actually be eating sliders on air and getting high, but it'll be incoherent. [01:40:25] Speaker A: I'll be honest, I think Andy was the only one to eat a slider when we watched White Cast Altogether. Yeah, I just ate chicken rings. [01:40:33] Speaker B: I was the only one brave enough. [01:40:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, you were. But tune in on December 14th when we talk about the Harold and Kumar trilogy. But as always, I'm Logan Somash. [01:40:44] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:40:45] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. [01:40:47] Speaker B: Bye.