Episode 91: Kurosawa's Shakespeare Trilogy (with Matt Hurt)

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:00:22] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:24] Speaker A: In our trilogies, we take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, thematic elements, or even just numerical order, and we talk about and discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding them. And today, folks, we have a trilogy that honestly is one that, in my opinion, is why we do this show. A great wild trilogy that is something that even as someone who's wanted to get more into this director over the years, I had no idea he had three adaptations of classic Shakespeare texts. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:55] Speaker A: But in case you don't know what that we're doing today, today we are discussing Kurosawa's Shakespeare trilogy. We're talking about director Akira Kurosawa and his films. 1957's Throne of Blood, 1960s the Bad, Sleep well, and 1985's Ron. Take it away, Andy. Because it's not just us today, is it? [00:01:15] Speaker B: No. We are lucky enough to be joined by a resident Kurosawa head and the owner, proprietor, editor, operator of the Obsessive Viewer and the obsessive viewer podcast, Mr. Matt Hurt. Matt, how are you doing? [00:01:35] Speaker C: Hi, guys. I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about some Kurosawa stuff. [00:01:42] Speaker A: I'm so glad you've decided to join the torture that is the Odd Trilogies podcast when it comes to these episodes, because these are always a treat. I mean, the last time I think of when we did something like this, it was, of course, the Kevin Costner trilogy. [00:01:56] Speaker B: Yes. Rogers. Yeah. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Nick, that was an absolute blast. So I'm very excited to have you on today, Matt. We both are. Especially because I think you have the most experience with these three films out of the three of us. Which ones? I mean, which one of these have you seen the most of the trilogy? [00:02:14] Speaker C: Without question. Throne of Blood. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:16] Speaker C: Throne of Blood. Yeah. With my. With like, my history with Kurosawa. Like, my favorite movie of all time is Seven Samurai. Love that movie to death. I'm not sure, but I want to say that Throne of Blood might have been my first Kurosawa movie. [00:02:32] Speaker A: Really? [00:02:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And that was back in the. That was back in, like, Netflix by mail days. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:39] Speaker C: I was in high school. Like, I got the disc in the mail, watched it, and I was like, oh, Shakespeare in feudal Japan. This is amazing. So I remember I like, went to. Was it Suncoast Video, whatever the, like, old, like, video place was because they had, like, Criterion discs and I like Bought Throne of Blood and I would take, like. Like, I would take the insert to school with me so, like, in my free period I could read, like, the essay and stuff. [00:03:09] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. [00:03:11] Speaker C: So without question, Throne of Blood is the one I've watched the most and I adore it. It's amazing. [00:03:18] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah. Matt was and is still kind of instrumental in my diving into a lot of classic Japanese period films. Just seeing all of his letterbox reviews and talking to him after watching stuff. I mean, he's. Matt, you're probably the reason I'm watching the Zatoichi movies. Even though now I think I have. [00:03:46] Speaker C: Surpassed what you hope you have surpassed me. I need to get back into that. I really do. Yeah. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, Matt, you haven't finished all 48 Zatoichi films. How dare you. [00:03:56] Speaker C: I'm afraid I have not. [00:03:59] Speaker B: Our buddy Adam and I, he's been watching all of them with me and I think we just hit. I think the last one we watched was 11. Yeah, okay. [00:04:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely got a way. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Because you're also going to watch the remake with Takashi. Not Takashi Mikkei. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Takashi. Takeshi Kitano. Yeah, yeah. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Takeshi Kitano. And yeah. For those who don't know. Yeah. Matt has already said it. Kira Kurosawa is mainly known of the just incredible myriad of phenomenal films in his filmography. He's mainly known for Seven Samurai, which maybe if you haven't seen Samurai Samurai, you probably have seen the adaptations which are the Magnificent Seven films. Or A Bug's Life if you're nasty. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Or like three different Star wars things. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:04:49] Speaker C: Gosh. [00:04:50] Speaker A: If you drink, if you took a shot, for every time there was at least a Kurosawa reference in a Star wars property, you'd be dead. Yeah, I think it would be especially. Yeah, especially Seven Samurai. The amount of Seven Samurai. Gosh. I think Clone wars alone has three episodes that are basically Seven Samurai, like standoff with the Empire or something like that. But. Oh, yeah, with this trilogy, we wanted to cover something that, you know, I've heard two of these, two of the three of the films. Personally, I've had Throne of Blood on my list for a while, especially Ron, because again, like, because of how Kurosawa, how just expansive and how decades spanning his career is. Ron was always the one where I'm like, that's the one that's in color. He's got a few. [00:05:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:41] Speaker A: But that's the one where it's like, oh, this is the non black and white one that's, like, really, like, beautiful. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. It's also very in color. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Oh, it's so in color. And it's. But little did I know, and it wasn't until Andy suggested this trilogy with you, Matt, is the fact that they were Shakespeare adaptations. That shocked me. For some reason, after years and years of hearing Throne of Blood, especially the iconic finale in Throne of Blood that involves a lot of arrows or shots in Ron that circulate every time someone talks about Criterion films. You need to watch for. For some reason, in the span of those. I had never heard their origins as Shakespeare adaptations. [00:06:25] Speaker C: Wow. [00:06:25] Speaker B: Well, in credit where it's due, I think you can correct me if I'm wrong, Matt. I think maybe you planted the seed for this idea in my head. [00:06:35] Speaker C: I may have. [00:06:36] Speaker B: I know that I think we were talking about Kurosawa and Samurai movies at some point, and I probably said something like, it would be great to have you on. Find something to talk about at some point. And I think maybe you like, oh, well, Kurosawa did three Shakespeare movies. [00:06:53] Speaker C: Honestly, I think I pitched you, like, three different trilogies. Also, like, I pitched you this, and then I think I pitched a post war, post war Japan Kurosawa trilogy. [00:07:06] Speaker A: Post war Japan. Nice. [00:07:08] Speaker C: And a Neo or not Neo, but noir Kurosawa. I think. Yeah. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Gosh, I will. I will do all three. Nobody. I think it's definitely. It was definitely because of you, Matt, because I think what happened was when we planned out the year in, like, January, we talked about this kind of slew in November where it's like, we had our idea for, like, a spooky season Halloween trilogy. We've had plenty of ones that we knew were going to be, like, easy. Like, we're going to talk about Venom later. Spoiler alert. That is one very next trilogy. So we had other ones that we knew, but we had, like, these little spaces where it's like, well, let's do. Let's do something for us, you know, or something that we think we could do with other people that. Because we really wanted to have more people on the show this year. And we were like, oh, what would be a good thing for, you know, Nick or Matt? And then that's because I think around the same time is when you, Andy, were starting to do, like, your whole Japanese deep dive. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Because you started, right? Yeah, pretty much earlier this year. Yeah. [00:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And so it was like. Because you had just basically been like, all right, I've spent a whole year sniffing John Wayne's scraps now it's time to go into just a year of Japan. Yeah. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Sniff Mifune now. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Which, gosh, I would do that all day too. [00:08:26] Speaker C: Yes. [00:08:27] Speaker A: To Shira Mifune. [00:08:28] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, that. [00:08:29] Speaker A: I mean, again, I was, I, with my Throne of Blood review was pretty much how I feel about any Kurosawa. I. You. You put Mifune in a film with Kurosawa, I'm there. [00:08:40] Speaker C: Oh my God. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:08:42] Speaker C: Like one of my all time favorite, like filmmaker, actor, like partnerships of all time. It's just, it's incredible. Every, every freaking role is just dynamite. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Well, and the thing too is like, we've done trilogies dedicated specifically to like director actor pairings, but I don't know that we could nail down a trilogy for Mifune and Chris. They've had so many great movies together. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Oh my God. Yeah. And it's, it's what shows how, how strong their connection was when it comes to Ron. How like, even though the cast is phenomenal in Ron, it is very noticeable that there's no Mifune. [00:09:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:25] Speaker A: It's like you could see where Mufune could be dropped in. Sure. But it's, it's very much like their, their connection is so strong that it's like even in the slower moments in some of these films, it's just like if you just make Mifune's face look so dirty, it just looks like a ragged, like a rabid animal. I'm there. [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yep, yep. [00:09:45] Speaker A: I mean, might as well get into our first film with that in mind because you get a lot of that in 1957's Throne of Blood, which is a Macbeth adaptation and is surprisingly, I mean, again, and this is not a dig on Kurosawa at all, but like incredibly streamlined for like the majority of like his filmography in terms of just like lengthwise, like, I mean, again, a man who is known for just pumping out two, two and a half, three hour films with ease of like just really classic films that take their sweet time getting to the end. And Throne of Blood's like just over a hundred minutes. Yeah, it's very succinct, gets the story across. And like, to be honest, as someone who was in a Macbeth production in like high school and have read Macbeth before, I going in, I was like, I don't know if all you remember what the story was again, as soon as the movie started, I was like, oh, holy shit. Okay. I remember this beat. I remember this. Oh my gosh. We got ghosts. We got ghosts. All right, we're ready. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And you mentioned it being streamlined, like, also as an adaptation of Macbeth. It's like it's. Without rushing it. It's like, it's really. I don't know. I struggle with stage productions of Shakespeare because they can be so long and verbose and that sort of thing. And it's just insane how faithful of an adaptation this is, while also being like the distillation of it and kind of pure. Straight into it. Go, go, go, go, go. Until it's done. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:25] Speaker C: The brisk pace is amazing. Oh, yeah. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Especially when it's like, watching the film. It was also kind of the curiosity surrounding, like, as an adaptation from stage to screen. And it's not even about the setting change being more of a no drama inspiration from feudal Japan. It's like, it is the fact that it. Kurosawa keeps, like, the stage composition and, like, kind of like the feeling in the camera as if you're watching a stage production version of the play. And also the writing, like, again, it could be. I don't think it's anything kind of implied in the English subtitles, but it very much feels like, at least how they're performing it. They're performing it like Shakespeare being translated into Japanese without too much. Too much modernization. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:14] Speaker A: Like, just certain words that they use. And, like, there's just like, noticing just the tone and the inflection. It's just like. It's a film that is clearly very creative in how it's using Macbeth as a foundation for a very interesting, unique take on the story while also being unapologetically still Shakespeare, despite being Japanese. I get it was funny because, like, when I was watching this, I watched this with our friend Adam, and he was like, I wonder how. He's like, listen. He's like, I don't want a time machine, per se, but if I did, like, in a creative sense, it would be kind of interesting to see how Shakespeare would see a version of his story like this, where it's like, yeah, it's like this was. It was never intent. There was nothing about Macbeth that is like, oh, yes, I can't wait until there is a Japanese interpretation of this text. Like, there's nothing in his work. Has kind of felt like it wants to be constantly added, like, you know, adapted. And so it's like, so shows how good of a storyteller Kurosawa is of just being like, all right, it's in Fuel Japan. It's more like this type of classic Japanese drama. We're going to go for it. And it. It slaps I had a phenomenal time with this one. I had a really good time with Thorn of Blood. [00:13:33] Speaker C: Nice. I had this weird thought. This kind of dumb thought, probably, but. [00:13:40] Speaker A: There'S no dumb thoughts on. [00:13:42] Speaker C: Good. Good to know. So maybe this is just because I saw this when I was a teenager and everything, but there's just such a richness to how Kurosawa is able to just. It's going to sound kind of hacky, but, like, transport us to feudal Japan. Like, there were moments where, like, I'm watching and I'm like, there is. There is no. I don't know how to phrase it exactly, because I'm going to sound. I don't know how it's going to sound, but basically I'm like, watching and I'm thinking, like, I don't believe that there's modern anything within 100 miles of where they are. Like, yeah, I believe that he is in, like, 1500, 1600s Japan. And, like, it just feels like, so immersive in the period. And that goes for all of his period work as well. But, like, Throne of Blood in particular, it just feels so, like, lived in and so. So much of the era that it's. That it's depicting that, like, even. Even knowing that it's an adaptation of Shakespeare, it's like this. This story itself, like, feels like it is at home in feudal Japan. And, like, that. That combination that he. God damn, he was someone, like, special man. Like, oh, no, Absolutely. [00:15:01] Speaker A: A hundred percent. Yeah. It is phenomenal. Again, because I agree with you. Just, it's. It's not. I don't think it's cliche at all to say, like, just watching again in this film, going from the very beginning of showing, like, here lies where the spiderweb's castle was, and then there's fog. And that fucking castle just shows up so great. It's like, there's such a theatricality to this that also feels so grounded because they are actually shooting on Mount Fuji. And it's like. And it's no surprise, though, like, apparently at the time this was made, this is one of the most expensive Japanese films. It is shown in every shot. It is like. And every shot feels like there's not a scent wasted. Especially after a year that we've had this year where we can definitely watch a 200, $120 million film and be like, I don't know where this money is coming from or where it's going. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah. See every scent. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah, you can see it in every single armor piece. All the horses. Oh, My gosh. There's so many shots that mean. I think my personal favorite shot in this movie is of course the shot where the spirit disappears. The house. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:13] Speaker A: They pull the house. It was like. Cuz I was like, that is so silly that that house is made by the tiniest. That it's like, oh, it's because they can pull it up and it not make a lot of noise. Oh my gosh. And also the spirit, the use of like his one spirit over the. Because it's three in the original text, right? [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:34] Speaker A: The one spirit is genuinely. Even though it clear, they just look like they have a bunch of flour on their face to a certain extent. Still ethereal, uncomfortable and so well done. [00:16:47] Speaker C: Very creepy. Like it turns into a horror movie in those scenes and like when he returns to kind of get back to her, it's just so, like so powerful and effective. It's fantastic. [00:17:00] Speaker A: And just like go for it. [00:17:02] Speaker B: Well, I wanted to just kind of go and go back and expand on what you were saying, Matt, about just how transportive and immersive it is. And I think like on top of like you said, Logan, the expensive commitment to like recreating all this stuff. I think on top of that there's a really like old world theatrical quality to this movie that like is also in some of Kurosawa's other stuff, but maybe more concentrated here than in any of his movies that I've seen. I watched because this was. This was my second time seeing this film this year. So I decided to watch it with the commentary track. Nice. I think it's the Criterion commentary track. And the guy who was talking about it was talking about how Kurosawa was a huge fan of no theater, which was kind of the less, I guess the lesser known today theater art, theatrical art to Kabuki. But NOH theater was a lot more, I don't know, stylized and formalist and not accurately trying to represent, like not accurately depict the things that it's trying to represent. And there's a lot in this movie that's like clearly unreal. Like it couldn't possibly be a real thing in real life at that time. There's just too much fantasy going on. And a lot of the way Kurosawa portrays things is this incredibly heightened, like thick, I mean fog everywhere, storms constantly happening. You know, everybody's rolling around in the mud. Like we got stark white ghosts sitting in the forest. Like it's so. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:02] Speaker B: So not over the top, but just so heightened that it really create. Takes you to this Other kind of mood and other kind of world where it's like. I think that's part of the reason that it works, that it feels like such a natural Shakespeare adaptation, because Kurosawa is using his own cultures, you know, theatrical staples to try and make it work on screen, which is really cool. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:30] Speaker C: Yeah. And it also. I don't. I want to say that it's like, the use of. Is it the Greek chorus equivalent? [00:19:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I was thinking that too. Yeah. [00:19:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Like, having those, like, little, like, almost interstitials of those. Those guys, like, just talking, commenting on what's going on to kind of bridge each, like, act of the. Of the story is just. It feels so much like, again, that perfect marriage of Shakespeare and feudal Japan. [00:19:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:57] Speaker A: No. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:58] Speaker A: It's so unapologetically Shakespeare in a way that is like, I. Even if you both told me we're gonna do this trilogy, we're not gonna tell you what it is. Just enjoy the films, I think. Yeah. Just watching Throne of Blood, it is. Yeah. The chorus, the opening and ending, the theatricality of. Especially the forest. The forest is probably one of the most theatrical parts of the film. And it's so uncomfortable when it gets to that point when it's just like, oh, my gosh, this is definitely not a real forest. But I'm still engaged. But, yeah, it is definitely, like. I think you just throw someone in, watch it with them, and if they love Shakespeare, they'll just immediately see, like, that's a Shakespeare thing. [00:20:39] Speaker C: Mm. [00:20:39] Speaker A: That's also a Shakespeare thing. That woman is terrifying. Wait, she's Lady Macbeth. What is going on? [00:20:46] Speaker C: It's like. [00:20:47] Speaker A: And then at that point, you just start to see, like. I think it's the. Definitely the benefit of this. And I think with Ron and I think we'll get into one of my things. One of my. I think what I think is probably one of the issues with the blood, the Bad Sleep well with Me is the fact that since they really don't change a lot of the characterizations of the characters, it's mainly just the setting, the names. And, of course, just a different approach to the theatrics, especially with performances, is very much like, curse. I was like, okay, we're doing Macbeth. That's. That's what we're doing. Now let's get into the real nitty gritty of it. Mifune go crazy. Let's figure out these really cool shot compositions for this and that. Like, that, like, when Miki's death is shown on screen or, like, is implied and that is one of the most theatrical parts of the film as well. And it's like, you also have Mufune again, just. It's hard not to watch that man and just not be somewhat depressed that I can't look at a mirror and be. To Shira Mifune. He's that kind of just like, performance and aura and just an intensity to the point where it's like, yeah, this man was basically. He would play, quote, unquote, fifth or sixth fiddle in a Kurosawa film, and he still holds his ground. So when you give him the limelight, it's uncomfortably just like you're engaged. [00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:09] Speaker A: And it was also the fact that, like, Minoru Chiaki, who plays Miki in the film, he's also from Seven Samurai. [00:22:16] Speaker C: That's right. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Yeah. He's only from Seven Samurai. He's also from Godzilla Raids again, which is. Which is both, like, Adam and I, because we. We went through the. The whole show of Godzilla and we need to catch back up on the. The hesai. But we were watching and he was like, that looks like the fun pilot from Godzilla Raids Again. Like, I. Adam, it is the kids is the fun pilot again. It is as like a. As this version of Banquo. It is Banquo. It is very. He's so good. It's such a wonderful time. And seeing him just be like, nah, nothing's going wrong. We gotta listen the prophecies. But, like, we should be fine. Why would anyone do anything bad? It is. Yeah. I think it's going into this film. It is shocking that it's under two hours. And the fact that it keeps. It doesn't feel like it is cutting anything that is necessary to tell its story. It really is getting everything that it needs to get across. Which I appreciate it. [00:23:22] Speaker C: Absolutely. And to that point, I want to kind of ask, when we get to Miki's, like, death scene, do you guys feel like it would have enhanced it? Enhanced or been worse off if we had shown, like, if there had been a scene where it actually showed, like, his. His death and, like, what. What happened? Or was it more effective just jumping to that scene where he sees the ghost? [00:23:49] Speaker A: To me, it was more effective just the ghost, because even though I had to slowly remind myself what the scene was in Macbeth, it was when his assassin comes in with the bag. It's like, oh, oh, this is. Okay. So that's what it's showing. To me, it feels like it adds to the theatrics. It's the very Shakespeare. Even though there's a lot of Shakespeare that is like, this is a scene entirely having this person say, this side. All right, next scene, this other person's gonna tell you the other side. It's like, with this, it was. It was really like, as I was slowly, just as a viewer piecing together. Oh, it's this part of the story. I really think he, again, masterfully handles introducing to the audience. No, this is not. This is a hallucination. But there's a reason why this is a guilty. This is a guilt hallucination. He is doing this to himself. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think. I would definitely agree that. I think the off screen death or the implied death is it enhances it because I, at least especially the first time I watched this movie, we're seeing it all really through Macbeth's eyes. And Mifune, of course, is just crazy, wild eyed, this entire film, totally unhinged, falling apart, you know, the frayed, frayed ends of his mind all over the place. And so I kind of like that because it keeps you in this zone of like, what the fuck is going on? What is happening around me? I don't. You know, Mifune, throughout the movie just looks like he doesn't really even look like he's actively, like, in touch with what's going on. It's like he's like, he looks, you know, cliche as it sounds, looks like he's seen a ghost at all times. And like he's just kind of like, you know, ptsd, Vietnam helicopter, flashbacking the entire movie. [00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Like there's just some distance there. And I think, you know, Miki's appearance, you know, just kind of heightened that and, you know, is one example of how Kurosawa is kind of doing the Dostoevsky fever dream style of storytelling. [00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And I. To add on to your point, I do love the fact that like his very. Just very crazed, feral look in his eye that he's had as the whole film. I love how before all the premonitions and before he murders. Is it Odagura? Is it Macduff? Is it the. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:35] Speaker A: What is. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Well, there's not. Yeah, it is. Yeah. [00:26:39] Speaker A: Okay. When he, when he murders Odogura, like before that point, it's like you can blame the feralness on like almost PTSD or just being like, you know, battle ridden to the point of just like, you know, to exhaustion. And then everything past the murder is basically him just overcome with guilt every second that passes. And it's. I mean, again, props to Kurosawa. I don't know which film. He'd found out that if you just smear mud on Mifune's face, it ages him 10 years more if he has a mustache. But it's funny to think, like, he looks like he should be in his 50s in this film, but he's, like, late 30s, I think when this movie came. [00:27:18] Speaker C: See that young. [00:27:19] Speaker A: He was that young. [00:27:20] Speaker C: Jesus. [00:27:21] Speaker A: Because. Because, like, he. Because I know this. I think Annie would probably know this too, because, like, we both just watched Grand Prix a few months back because we wrote pieces on it, and that's, like, 1966. And in that, he plays like, someone who's supposed to be in their mid to late 50s. And I think he's, like, in his mid-40s. So he's like. He's. And again, like, three years after throne of Blood, bad Sleep well. Like, he looks so young when you don't have. When you don't get. When he has no facial hair and it doesn't look like you just. You slipped and fell into, like, a. Like, pudding. He looks very much like a normal, like, regular, like, at his age. But it's phenomenal. The curse. I was like, no, we're gonna make you ragged. [00:28:06] Speaker C: Yeah, that makes you. [00:28:07] Speaker A: That makes you more. Makes you look unstable. [00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Like, I also love the fact that to counteract how Mifune looks, you have the Lady Macbeth Lily, who is, like. Who is just pristine, no eyebrows. Very haunting in comparison, where she is very composed, very much. I honestly have all the. It's. I don't know how many versions of Macbeth I've seen, but I really love their interpretation of Lady Macbeth in this version. [00:28:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:40] Speaker A: Of just, like, listen, it's. Because you can always. With Lady Macbeth as a character. I always thought it was kind of an implied thing that, you know, she has this almost a confusion with, like, how she wishes she was a man. Whether that is because of a power situation or it's the fact that maybe just internally she feels like she's male. And how, like, later interpretations of people have looked back on that of, like, what is that? Like, is that text have any kind of value to it? But, like, I love the fact in this. It's just like, she very much is like, I wish I was a man, because if I was, I would have had your power. And more months ago. Like, it's this energy of just, like you. You can see that she only has as much power as Mifune does. And it really just, like, bothers her up until, of course, madness hits where the classic damn spot scene Comes from. And yeah, it's. Oh my gosh. Trying to think of what else to talk about other than like. Because I don't want to talk about the finale just yet. Because that's something easily talk about for a while. Because that is just like. That was the one scene from this film I think I'd seen the most. Is of course, is the. The arrows. [00:29:54] Speaker B: Yeah, but. [00:29:55] Speaker A: But is there. Is there a scene before we get to the finale? Is there other points throughout the film, whether performances or almost like just shots that kind of stood out to you or I mean, with. With Matt in terms of just like adaptation wise, do you think there was something that like, you know, this time through you saw something that you didn't realize was like very. A subtle take on the text or. [00:30:20] Speaker C: Not anything this time around. But I do appreciate how like Mickey and his son, there's that scene where they're kind of talking about the prophecy and then like his son is like speaking within, like logically to him, saying like, you know, just because this stuff happened doesn't mean that it's, you know, fulfilling a prophecy. It could be like a self fulfilling prophecy like that. Like, I just kind of. I don't know. I really like that that's just inserted in there. I don't remember if that's from like any. That's equivalent to the original text or anything, but just like little things like that. Having it be so surrounded by this whole prophecy thing and then have it just be cut down in that moment. Also, the numerous times that they refer to bad omens like the crows coming in and those. That. And the way that Washizu is just like completely like. Yeah, no, it's just, you know, it's crows. You know, that means the weather is bad or something. So we're gonna triumph and all that. Like, just like those like unheeded warnings go a long way. Especially with as. As. As brisk as this as this movie is, it just keeps that momentum going so incredibly well. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:33] Speaker A: Or the. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead. [00:31:34] Speaker A: Or the fact. Or the fact that like Washizu and his wife basically have to stay in the room where the last traitor was slaughtered. [00:31:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:45] Speaker A: And so when. When it all happens and Mafudi's just sitting there with his bloodied hands in front of the bloodied slaughter stain that they can't get out. It's like he's like, don't worry, honey. It's just dried blood. It's not anything. Don't worry about it. He's just sitting there quietly and sternly as he's waiting for his time to pretend, like. To pretend like he had found the killer. [00:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:08] Speaker A: What were you gonna say, Andy? [00:32:09] Speaker B: Well, another, Matt, another detail about. Like you were talking about, you know, little bits here and there to kind of, you know, articulate the prophecies and fates and the kind of dynamics that Kurosawa was playing with there early on in the film. I think it's right after they come back after Miki and Washizu come back to the castle, you know, to report on their. Their mission and things. Miki's banner, like his crest or whatever is of a rabbit, which is like a sign of fertility because, you know, he's. His line is supposed to beget many kings and lords and things. And so it's just, you know, I just love that there's so many, especially like you said, with how fast this movie moves. There's just so many little details peppered throughout that not only communicate the ideas that, you know, Shakespeare was also trying to get across, but also integrate, you know, the different. The wildly different culture and history that, you know, Kurosawa's using as his landscape for it. Just really cool. I wanted to ask Matt and you as well, Logan, that. [00:33:25] Speaker A: No, just ask Matt. It's fine. [00:33:27] Speaker B: Because you. Well, Logan, you mentioned that, you know, particular shots that stood out to us. I wondered what, you know, were your guys favorite shots in the movie. Just because it's such a. It's a thick atmosphere. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Matt, yours. [00:33:44] Speaker C: That man. That's a good. That is a good question. The finale. Everything about the finale is kind of up there for me. The trees, the arrows, all of that. In a weird way, the riding on horseback in the forest scenes in particular, like in the beginning, that goes such a long way of. We have the two of them just after having been in battle and everything. They're speaking very jovially while being kind of lost in the woods. And there's just something to the way that is communicated. Just like them going through like up until they see the spirit, just like that familiarity with each other and the way that it is depicting them lost in the woods and I don't know, everything about it is just great. And any and every time Kurosawa ever does anything involving weather, it's like that's like top tier sequence for me every time. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. [00:34:53] Speaker B: And in the woods, the way that like, you know, when they're riding horseback really fast trying to like find their way out or whatever. And Kurosawa just keeps doing back to back, like long lens tracking shots. So it's just like this blurry mess and he's just cutting between the two riders. Yeah, that's. It's crazy. [00:35:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So those are great. I mean, for me. Oh, yeah. I mean, again, I think I talked about it. My favorite. My most favorite shot of the film is definitely when the spirit disappears the cameras right outside the hut. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:27] Speaker A: And they pull. [00:35:28] Speaker B: We go through the hut and then. [00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And then we pull back and there's no hut whatsoever. Second favorite shot is the trees in the fog. I think that is just like. Because in my head, I'm like. Because again, like, in the film, when he's like, it's okay, guys, the prophecy says when trees move, all die. [00:35:48] Speaker B: Right? [00:35:48] Speaker A: And it's like, they're not going to do that. And then, of course, when they're like, what are they doing in the dark? I'm like, oh, this has got to be. Well, these are fucking trees. I don't know why they're doing it, but. Because if. But, like, that's kind of cool. So, like, I'm expecting to see that shot, but for some reason, it's like I forgot that there's been fog this whole film. So when those trees are just slowly lumbering through the fog, I went, that's fucking good. [00:36:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:13] Speaker A: And I guess. Yeah. And. But my. I will say as a. As an honorable mention, my favorite cut in the film is when Mifune gets the arrow in the throat. [00:36:21] Speaker C: Oh, God. Yes. [00:36:23] Speaker A: That was a genuine shock because I had seen that scene. I must have seen that scene all the way up until when he dies, because I've never seen that shot. That scared the shit out of me. [00:36:32] Speaker C: I have seen this movie probably like 10 times in my life total. Probably more than that. Probably much more than that, honestly. But, like, it seems like every time I see the movie, I'm still stunned every single time when that happens, because it's such a shock. It's such a sudden shock moment that I just. And it's. It looks so good. Like, it looks so damn good. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Well, and that scene is such a. Like, I mean, literally rapid fire, just, you know, arrows, arrows, arrows. He's running back and forth, he's screaming, he's running into walls getting shot and stuff. And then it just ends in a moment with that. Yeah. [00:37:04] Speaker A: And again, just shows the layer of just genius that Kurosawa has where it's like, now, especially as fans of Kurosawa, we're aware that in that scene, Mifune is actually getting shot at by Eros, right? That, like, he's Actually has, like, extra layer padding of armor. They even hit him, I think, twice. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So, like, I think Kurosawa, like, took all of their professional artists, like, lined up and was like, okay, you guys are gonna compete to see who's gonna shoot Mifune. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Like, the most accurate. Guys, I'm not saying Costner should get his best marksman and recreate these scenes for, like, Horizon, but I would. I would respect the man. [00:37:47] Speaker B: But he's gonna do it with guns. [00:37:49] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what. I know. That's exactly what that meant. [00:37:51] Speaker B: He's gonna wear Kevlar underneath his overall. [00:37:54] Speaker A: No, but it's almost like there's a. There's a. There's a feeling that. It's almost like Kurosawa was like. Even if people find out that we actually shot Mifune. Mm. They're gonna have that in their brain so ingrained at a certain point that when we cut to a fake arrow in his fake neck, it is gonna shock people. Because your brain has constantly been going, that's real, that's real, that's real. And then, yes, it's a real arrow. But it didn't go through before he snack. [00:38:20] Speaker C: Right. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Your brain has to, like, read, like, contextualize. Oh, wait, this is the one arrow that's not, like, actually being shot. Clearly added. It's like. Yeah, I think that's definitely Matt. Why? It probably has the shocking aspect. [00:38:32] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Where it's like your brain is like, oh, he's gonna go this way. Not get hit. Go this way. It's gonna be fine. And then the arrow. It's also the way that it hits such a unique, weird spot that, like, none of the other arrows that entire sequence have been shooting like that. [00:38:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:48] Speaker A: So it's like. That's like. It almost looks like a stray shot, which makes it. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:52] Speaker A: Better. [00:38:53] Speaker B: Well, and just the fact that they like that, you know, that archer, whoever it was who fired it, they actually, you know, shot an arrow past him at the position such that, you know, it would look like it's going through his neck. And then had Mifune just stand still and then cut to him. [00:39:13] Speaker A: It's so good. It's so good. [00:39:16] Speaker C: Again, so damn good. [00:39:17] Speaker A: Very theatrical, that man. He sells an arrow in the throat like nothing else. [00:39:23] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:39:26] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. And also love the fact in the film that it's like when the trees start walking, his entire army is just like, okay, the best thing we can do is just give him up. Yeah, we'll kill him. It's like, the most realistic kind of response to that. I'm like, well, if we're truly believing. [00:39:47] Speaker B: We don't all have to die for this guy. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Also, I don't know. I mean, this. I feel like this is very much intentional, and I think it happened so fast. Maybe I was seeing it differently. Right before the arrows hit, the spirit shows up, doesn't he? [00:40:04] Speaker B: Like, I think there's a shot. [00:40:06] Speaker A: There's. There's a shot where, like, he's looking at his army. And the last person that talks before the arrows start shooting is, I believe, the spirit in armor in the front. [00:40:17] Speaker C: Oh, that's awesome. I. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Because I swear, it's like. Because I'm pretty sure he's got very long white hair. Oh, yeah, okay. Basically. Basically is saying he's basically doing you get what you fucking deserve in front of his whole army going, this is what you get for believing a prophecy and not expecting it to come true. [00:40:35] Speaker C: That's awesome. I don't know if I've ever caught that. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Well, because, like, in the second time, because they introduced the idea of different spirit forms, quote, unquote. Because when he goes back into the forest, we have, like, what, a female spirit, a different clothes spirit. Like, clearly different actors play in the spirit, but still supposed to be same spirit. [00:40:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:54] Speaker A: And it's like, I think one of those forms that he takes in the forest when he's telling him the tree prophecy is the form he takes when he's. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Oh, it's when he takes that warrior form. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I think so. Because I think he's also in the very, very front. But when you're watching the film, he's like, at the very bottom of the screen. Because, again, Kurosawa spared no expense on extras. There's so many extras in every shot. But it's like you have to nearly play Where's Waldo and look for, like, wait, is the spirit there? But, yeah, that was good. Again, it is. Going into this, I was expecting every one of these films to be like two and a half, three hours. So to get to throwing a. Like, to start with Throne of Blood and be like 100 minutes. We're in, we're out. This is a fantastic adaptation of a text that I haven't read. Again, I will admit my Shakespeare knowledge is very lacking. And the stuff that I have read have been, like, a decade since I have, like. [00:41:50] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:41:50] Speaker B: I mean, I think probably would have been worth saying at the start of the episode, but I think all three of us are probably coming to this more as Kurosawa enthusiasts than like, Shakespeare nerds. [00:42:01] Speaker A: I will say, though, if you've been sitting here for over 30 minutes and didn't already catch that, I'm glad we clarified. Yes, I'm glad that we clarified that this is a Kurosawa Shakespeare trilogy, and Shakespeare's only been mentioned a few times in comparison to Kurosawa. But you're right. Yeah, we should clarify. Yeah. It's not. It's not that I hate personally. It's not that I hate Shakespeare or anything. It's just like, that was. At least with our. With. With any nice generation, it was very much like. And it's probably definitely the same for you, Matt, where it's like Shakespeare is kind of shoved down your throat and you can really enjoy it. Or it's something where it's like, I just. Not for me. And maybe you come back later and you appreciate it, or you just are like, ah, it's yield English. I have no interest. [00:42:46] Speaker C: Right. Slight tangent. I read Macbeth in high school, and this was after I saw Throne of Blood. So I was like. I was like. I was like, all in. I was like, I'm seeing all the connections and everything. Of course, that was high school, so I don't remember any of that. But another kind of funny anecdote about Shakespeare in high school and everything. I do remember my, I think sophomore English teacher had basically. I think he downloaded off the Internet. I don't think he actually wrote it, but like, there was like a. Like a hip version of Romeo and Juliet where they spoke in, like, early 2000 slang. It was incredibly cringey, but pretty entertaining. Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. [00:43:31] Speaker A: It's probably not any cringier than Tromio and Juliet, I'll give you. [00:43:34] Speaker C: That's fair. [00:43:35] Speaker A: Or. Or Gnomeo and Juliet. Gosh, so many Romeo and Juliet's to work off. [00:43:40] Speaker C: Yes. [00:43:41] Speaker A: No, that's funny because in high school, when I went through Romeo and Juliet and like, I think my freshman class in high school, our teacher was like, you think? Do you think these kids are cute? Well, in the book, he's much older. It's creepy. And that's like the only thing she really said. But she did actually. I do remember that class also because she did show a production. She was one of those, like, English teachers where it's like, I'm not gonna show you Romeo plus Juliet. You know what that is? Yeah, she showed us actually a stage production that was filmed of Romeo and Juliet that had the first, I believe, the first on screen, Alan Rickman performance. Because he's. Because I remember seeing him, and he is very young. Like, it looks like it's like mid to late 70s, maybe early 80s. Like, when I saw him, I was like, that's fucking Snape. That's Alan Rickman. He's. He's so young. [00:44:37] Speaker C: That's amazing. [00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah. With Macbeth, Specifically with Macbeth, I. I was, I think, Macduff's youngest son when I did the production in high school, which, in case anyone else else doesn't know, the youngest son in the production. Macbeth has, I think, three scenes and two lines, if I remember correctly. So it's like one of my. One of my close friends in high school was Macduff's oldest, who, I believe. I don't remember the character's name off the top of my head, but I think he's the one that slays Macbeth at the end. One of the last people that takes on Macbeth. Because I think in the original. I swear, in the original play, like, they blame it all on Macduff's sons. The Macduff died. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:21] Speaker A: Which is a difference here, because in. In Throne of Blood, it's just like those guys got drunk and stabbed Odagura. Get him. And that was like. That's, like, kind of what it is, I think, because maybe Odagura. Does Odogura have a son in this? I know, of course, Miki is a. [00:45:39] Speaker B: Way less significant character than Macduff is in the original. [00:45:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Like the. From, you know, kind of some of the essays and stuff I read, some people don't even consider Odogura Macduff. He's. He's kind of listed as, you know, as the analog. But, like, some people argue that there's not even a Macduff in the film because, like, they don't do the fight or anything like that. But, yeah, Odagura is way more background than Macduff is. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:13] Speaker B: But that is Takashi Shimura, another staple player in Kurosawa. Yeah. [00:46:20] Speaker A: You know, now that I look at it, I think I'm talking about a completely different character because he's last much longer in the film than the guy who gets. Who gets slain. What's the name? [00:46:33] Speaker C: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. [00:46:35] Speaker A: That's who I'm talking about. [00:46:36] Speaker C: Okay. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Odagura. I think Odegura is one of the only people I think Odagura is with. I believe the son of the noble that gets slain. [00:46:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:47] Speaker A: I think he doesn't die. [00:46:48] Speaker C: I think Odegura is just like, kind of, if I remember correctly, and Andy, maybe you can correct me since you listened to the commentary more recently. But I want to say that. But this also may not track, but I want to say that Takashi Shimura was in the movie kind of not necessarily as a favor, but like, as just like in a smaller role because he's a mainstay of Kurosawa's work. And at that point maybe he was getting a little bit older and couldn't really like take on a bigger role. Maybe. But then again, he's pretty prominent in the Bad Sleep. Well, a few weeks, a few months, a few years later. [00:47:23] Speaker B: But it might have just been that he had a lot of shit going on because he was pretty big at that time too. [00:47:29] Speaker A: Another Godzilla reigns again. Tidbit. Shimura is also in Godzilla Raids again. So it's not just Miki, but Odogura is. And the best part about Shimura being in Raids again, I believe he's also in the original Godzilla, but completely different characters. But in Raids again, Shimura's character is the one character that is basically given like the question, well, how is Godzilla back? Because like, again, I mean, cuz I can. Then Shimura's character, I swear to God, basically goes, there's another one. There's just so happens to be another one. I just always remember that where it's like, ah, gosh, I love a curse. I was staple coming to a Godzilla film. [00:48:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:48:09] Speaker A: We're making a sequel. I don't know. There's another one. [00:48:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Leave me alone. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I. Because again. Yeah. What is Seven Samurai around this time? Is it a few. [00:48:20] Speaker C: Seven, three years before? Yeah, yeah. 54. [00:48:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I mean, this in the original Godzilla. Go ahead. [00:48:27] Speaker C: Oh, sorry. The original Godzilla was 54 as well. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Damn. Yep. [00:48:33] Speaker C: Godzilla beat Seven Samurai for the Japanese equivalent of the movie of the year. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Best film. Yeah, yeah. Because this was. I mean, Rashomon was obviously the movie that kind of put Kurosawa, made him a name like, you know, internationally and things. And then Seven Samurai was a massive success. So my understanding is Throne of Blood was like kind of made with the intention of like creating a, you know, a super production, you know, that would. That would wow the world and have international appeal and make use of the Kurosawa name. So I think that's why they, you know, went for a Shakespeare adaptation. [00:49:17] Speaker A: That's the thing too is I'm curious about that as well, if either one of you know the answer to this, because I think I know with Ron. The fact that Ron's a King Lear adaptation was not intentional until like he started the process of writing it and just so happened to be like, oh wait, King Lear. I'm basically. Yeah, basically I could do King Lear. And it's like, yeah. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Cuz there are, I mean there are some pretty significant plot differences in Ron from King Lear. So I totally buy it. I had not heard that, that he just kind of stumbled into a King Lear adaptation. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Well, I also know that with, with Ron, I think a big, the big thing about Ron is I think he spent so many years building storyboards, doing this. Like, I think it was a reported like two years to make all the costumes. [00:50:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:06] Speaker A: And so it's like, I think that film. It would surprise me if he had done all the, the artistic, very visual aspects first. And then when it came to the narrative, it is where it's like, oh shit. King Learn of Blood was just like, but if it is trying to be more of an international. [00:50:22] Speaker B: I think it was very deliberate. Like not just obviously it's a deliberate adaptation, but I think the, you know, the goal was to use something big like Macbeth to make into a big film. [00:50:38] Speaker A: And definitely makes sense too that like just calling it not anything, Macbeth, being like, hey, you don't even have to read the story to come in because like you might have the impression, the implication that's like, oh, you have to know the story going into it. And it's like, no, it's Kurosawa, it's Mifune. It's one of the biggest Japanese productions of that time. Yeah, just go, just have a. Have a ball and damn that. I personally, I had a. I had a ball. I had a ball with it. It's. It's very much like again, because again, before we did this trilogy, I don't know if we've talked about this and you've probably seen a bit more than I have, Matt. You've definitely seen more than. But it's like, I think before we did this trilogy, I've seen six or seven of his films. I think Seven Samurai is my personal favorite as well. We. Yeah. We should also say if we're going to talk about Seven Samurai, Andy and I both saw the 4K restoration. [00:51:33] Speaker C: So did I. [00:51:34] Speaker A: You did. Oh my gosh. Thank God. [00:51:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Such a fucking fun time. Oh my God, that is such a blast. [00:51:39] Speaker C: I tangent. Sorry. But like I. I will never pass up an opportunity to see that movie in the theater. Like I. I've told this several times on my own podcast and everything, but like in. I think it was like 2018 or 2017 or 2018. The Art Craft Theater in Franklin, Indiana, had a Seven Samurai screening. It may have been 2016, but on 35 millimeter. And that was the first time. Yes. It was the first time I'd ever seen Seven Samurai Samurai in the theater. And, like, at the time, I was like, I'm never gonna have this opportunity again. Like, this is never gonna happen again. And, like, now I've seen it three times in the theater, one being the 4K restoration, which I will say, with. [00:52:28] Speaker A: The 4K restoration, not only is it crisp, I will say a lot of ball caps. Saw so many more ball caps this time around than I ever have watched. Because it probably is the third time I've seen the film in total. [00:52:40] Speaker C: Mm. [00:52:41] Speaker A: Because I think I saw Seven Samurai the first time. This is our Seven Samurai tangent on our Shakespeare trilogy. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Obligatory. [00:52:48] Speaker C: Well, you have to be. It has to. [00:52:50] Speaker A: It has to. Because maybe sometime in the future we'll do Seven Samurai in both Magnificent Seven. [00:52:57] Speaker B: Or Seven Samurai in both parts of Rebel Moon, perhaps. [00:53:00] Speaker C: Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm gonna have to. I'll be busy. I won't be able to come on the show for that. [00:53:06] Speaker A: I got some. My voice nearly cracked. I forgot. I forgot Rebel Moon was a film. [00:53:14] Speaker B: Depends on definition. [00:53:16] Speaker A: No, but there was. At my college, they had a Criterion Collection in the basement of the library. It was not. They never said anything about it. Like, it was one of those things where it's like I had a random Teacom, like, kind of a guy that I had classes with. He's like, yeah, you can get, like, Criterion and random shit in that basement. And it's like, I go down there and I'm like. I think the first time I went down there, I was like, do you have Suspiria? Because at that time, it was hard to get a copy of it. It hadn't gotten distribution a while. And they had, like, an old DVD copy of Suspiria from, like, early 2000s, and it's like, oh, shit. Nice. And so, like, one dime, I went in, and that was the first time Adam and I had seen Seven Samurai. Because I was like, do you have the criterion of Seven Samurai? And then we just were like, that was the first time in a long time I'd watch a three hour film. And it was. Oh, my God. Honestly, I think we watched Seven Samurai because of Fuqua's Magnificent Seven. [00:54:11] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Like, we're like. This is the. This is like, the easiest excuse to, like, watch every interpretation, including the original. It's based off of. [00:54:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:20] Speaker A: And unsurprisingly, Seven Samurai is still the best. [00:54:23] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:54:26] Speaker B: I still haven't seen either Magnificent Seven. [00:54:30] Speaker A: Really? [00:54:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:31] Speaker A: Especially with your western. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that was one. I'm still planning to. It's on my list. But, yeah, I haven't. Haven't stopped for that one. I was gonna watch him. I was gonna double feature the Fuqua one in the original. [00:54:43] Speaker A: Well, I will say. I mean, calling the Fuqua 1A Western, I think it's generous. It's generous. It's. It's fun. I think it's popcorn fluff. [00:54:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:53] Speaker A: But it very much is like. It's funny. It's very funny. The sensibilities of, like, Fuqua's Magnificent Seven versus, like, 70 years ago, where it's like, again, it's the one thing you have to get aware of with Kurosawa. A lot of his stories are just miserable, but it's still an entertaining film. [00:55:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:55:10] Speaker A: And Seven Samurai is just peak misery in Kurosawa narrative. And. Yeah. I mean, it's so like, I think I've seen Seven Samurai. Yo, Jimbo. Which is probably either. Probably my second favorite of his films, Hidden Fortress. [00:55:26] Speaker C: Mm. [00:55:27] Speaker A: Because again, if, as a Star wars fan, constantly being told, you know, this is just basically Hidden Fortress in space, I was like, well, I gotta watch Hidden Fortress. And then I. Gosh, there was a few others in the back of my head. I. Oh, I watched because I wrote a paper on Kurosawa in college and I did. I did one of his pre war films or during the war films, Shinsira Sugar. [00:55:52] Speaker C: Mm. [00:55:53] Speaker A: Which is phenomenal. Like, surprising for, like, a first film, especially with a film that is basically like, we're making a judo action film because the Japanese rating system won't allow violence of the specific kind. But judo's okay. And also. Yeah, it's your Jimbo. Yeah, it's about five or six, I think, before we started watching this. And these were just like three films that have been on the list in a while. I also. The amount of fucking Kurosawa that's just on my shelf of Criterion that I. [00:56:24] Speaker C: Just need to open up. [00:56:25] Speaker A: And because I have Kagemusha in Rashomon, I just haven't, like, sat down. Now I just need to watch Kagemusha because I want to see more curso in color. [00:56:35] Speaker C: Oh, my God. [00:56:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:36] Speaker B: Well, you get a lot of. A lot of good. Tatsuya Nakadai, who's the lead. [00:56:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:56:42] Speaker B: He's great in Kaguya. [00:56:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Can't wait. Can't wait to get into looking miserable when we get into Ron, do you. [00:56:50] Speaker B: Guys have any closing thoughts on Throne of Blood? [00:56:53] Speaker A: Throne of Blood. Great, great film. Loved it. Had a great time. [00:56:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:58] Speaker B: Well. And we're. And we're kind of transitioning from probably the most faithful Shakespeare adaptation of the bunch to definitely the least tight adaptation. Some would argue not even actually an adaptation, which I didn't really understand that that was up for debate when I first started thinking about this trilogy. [00:57:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:57:25] Speaker B: But yes, the Bad Sleep well is kind of considered an homage or loose adaptation of Hamlet in 1960. So I'm not even entirely sure how to. I guess it's a. At that time, contemporary workplace conspiracy thriller kind of corporate noir. Yeah. That. Yeah. Is loosely based on Hamlet, but it's, you know, it's Hamlet in the same way that, like every other movie, that's Hamlet is Hamlet. They're all just kind of barely Hamlet. [00:58:09] Speaker A: I think most people's reaction to figuring out that this is one of his Shakespeare adaptations will probably have the same reaction I did when you told me. [00:58:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:18] Speaker A: Where it was like, oh, we're doing a Shakespeare trilogy with Kurosawa. So they all are period pieces that are not modern day. [00:58:26] Speaker C: Right. [00:58:26] Speaker A: And then when I looked them up and I went, holy shit, the Bad Sleep well is like a 60s. Yeah. Like corporate noir. [00:58:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:35] Speaker A: That is like. That is insane. I also, I will admit, like, I think of all the Kurosawa I've seen, especially with this trilogy, Bad Sleep well was the first contemporary. [00:58:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:44] Speaker A: That I had seen of his. I have yet to really get into that. And so, like, this was kind of like, oh, I was excited to see contemporary Kurosawa with this. And it is fascinating that I do think when it comes to the Bad Sleep well, the thing that almost holds this film back in place is the. Is the artistic changes to. Made to certain storylines as well as just like the fact that it's not a straightforward Hamlet adaptation, which doesn't make it any less of a good movie. It just makes it, like, a little bit more complicated. Especially the beginning of this film compared to the beginning of Throne of Blood. Like, Throne of Blood feels like, okay, I know who these characters are. I get what's gonna. What's about to happen. I'm ready for this. And then the Bad Sleep well, the wedding. So many. So many characters are introduced. You still get the Greek chorus choir, but it's still like. It's fascinating how you're like, oh, we're done. Yeah, we've gotten all the characters, right. Oh, no, no, that's right. We. We haven't Even gotten to Shimora. We have to get to Shimura. [00:59:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just incredibly complex from the start, which is not necessarily something that's true of Hamlet. Hamlet gets complex, but is fairly straightforward from the beginning. Matt, had you seen this already before? [01:00:01] Speaker C: I had. So, so I have seen the majority. I've. I've seen 21 of Kurosawa's 30 movies. Wow. Okay, so there's, there's, well, there's still, there's still quite a few blind spots of course. But I having kind of come of age as, as I did with Seven Samurai and Throne of Blood. Something I forgot to mention also is that like I credit like Scream with being the movie that made me like interested in movies. And like I would say that Kurosawa, like my dive into Kurosawa with Throne of Blood and Seven Samurai was like the point in my life where I switched from. Oh, filmmaking is an art form. Like this is actual art. So yeah, so that's kind of where my trajectory was with Kurosawa. But with his work, having seen so many of his movies, I naturally gravitate more toward his period films just because of the scale. And I'm just interested in that time period that the whole samurai thing is, is fascinating to me. So like anytime I see a contemporary like modern day to the time Kurosawa movie, it's kind of a double edged sword, no pun intended. But like it's a little bit of a double edged sword because it's like, I feel like part of it is like trying to work to get more into the plot than it would be just disappearing into feudal Japan. But, but all of that prefaces to say that the Bad Sleep well isn't like I like it, I enjoyed it, but it just, it did have like a high barrier of entry below. Barrier of entry. I don't know, it was hard to get into. Yes, there we go. Because that whole prelude was as, as well meaning as it was because it's delivering all of this exposition, all of the storylines, everything is setting up. It is kind of just a very convoluted story in. You can have this extended period where you're explaining everything through these characters speaking to one another and just delivering all of this exposition. But like you still have two and a half hours worth of movie to go through that. [01:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah, two and a half shocked me. And when I, because like in my head I was like, Ron is the like is the longest of these three and like bad Sleep well, it's got to be like two hours. Like for some reason in my head I was like, oh, it's gonna be two hours, Ron's gonna be three. [01:02:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:54] Speaker A: The fact that there's literally 12, there's a 12 minute difference between Bad Sleep well and Ron is astonishing because like the craziest, the weirdest thing about Bad Sleep well, because again, I think on paper the idea that Kurosawa is taking a unique, very different approach to Hamlet, that, you know, you. Yeah, like we, we all were just like surprised that it's like, oh, it's contemporary, it's like, it has this mix of like, yeah, we could be a bit worried that it's not good, but at the same time we're like, no, this is, this is cool. This is really cool. This is. He could do the samurai thing with Hamlet, but why? Right? If he's more interested in doing a modern day, at the time, workplace noir, let's go for that. What's crazy to me, it's the fact that you have Mifune in the lead role. Mifune is the Hamlet of this film. Chiseled jaw, beautiful just in, just scary, man. When he gets into his intensity and does a phenomenal job in the movie. But Mifune's Hamlet, like his character doesn't really become really a character until 30 to 45 minutes in of a two and a half hour film about a loose adaptation of Hamlet. And again, it's like, it's not even a thing of like, again, curse. I was not embarrassed by its, you know, it's foundation of Hamlet because again, the journalists being used to be like the paparazzi telling us the scandals that are coming between these companies and ooh, here's this guy telling this story, whatnot. Here's Wada, here's Kagawa Nishi, like it's. All these things are like. That is very much like cool. Still doing the very Shakespearean stuff, but in modern day. That's very interesting. But it is wild that it's like as you think it's going to be done. There's a few more moments, there's a few more characters and then all of a sudden there's a very spiteful cake that's brought into the room and then the scene is done. [01:04:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:04:55] Speaker A: And it's. And then it's basically a bunch of newspaper clippings telling us almost the exact same stuff we were kind of already told. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Right. [01:05:03] Speaker A: And then you get the whole film, at least for me. It's like a Kurosawa film doesn't have to automatically have Mifune, but when you put film. And he's barely in any of the scenes of the first act. I'm like, what is Mifune gonna reveal that he's this. Because again, like, the big thing about this interpretation is the fact that it's like, this is not a version of Hamlet where in a modern sense, like an uncle kills his brother to marry the brother's wife. [01:05:31] Speaker C: Right. [01:05:32] Speaker A: This is literally like, in this interpretation, Dashir Mifune's dad was killed in a corporate sense because he probably knew too much or was not doing enough. And so they basically pushed him to suicide. [01:05:45] Speaker C: Mm. [01:05:46] Speaker A: And that alone is enough to be like, that's interesting enough. We could build upon that. But then the film goes, oh, by the way, I'm his illegitimate secret son to his secret wife that he had before he got married in a corporate marriage. When it gets to that point. Yeah, it's like, there's a lot going on here. [01:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of. Yeah. Layer upon layer of conspiratorial conceit. Like, you know, and that is something, I think, conceptually that is my. The strongest. I don't know, the best foot that this movie has is how thoroughly it's depicting, like the conspiratorial corruption and puppet mastering going on in the corporate world of Japan at that time. Because, like, you know, I can see how this was kind of a transgressive movie at the time and, you know, talking about things that a lot of movies probably weren't talking about. And I appreciate that in concept, but there's, you know, there's a lot of. Like Matt said, it's a high barrier to entry because they're just throwing so much information at you and so few of the characters are actually like, characters more than like names to be thrown around. [01:07:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:09] Speaker A: I think, I think we learn more about Nishi's corporate, like his. His wife, his new wife. And like, her why she has a limp. We learn more about his brother in law way before Nishi is like, oh, here we go. Yeah, this is where I'm at. Yeah, I don't like this guy. I married his daughter. [01:07:30] Speaker C: And like, once it gets. Yeah, once it gets moving into that vengeance plot, that revenge plot, I was more. I was much more engaged with it. I was very much, very much into it. But like the thing that kind of. Maybe this is me going into it. Like, I've seen. I've seen this twice. I don't know if I ever answered the question. I have seen this before. I saw this once before. I think. Let me check. Letterboxd I have seen this now two times. The first time was in 2007. So it's been a long time. And so. [01:08:07] Speaker B: Hold on a second. Just pause for a minute. Did you just, like. Did you have a spreadsheet or something prior to letterboxd that you just then went and backdated your whole log? [01:08:18] Speaker C: I did, yes. And to be. To be specific, I. [01:08:21] Speaker B: Just curious. [01:08:21] Speaker C: Yeah, just. Just to say, to be very specific, I saw January 11, 2007. [01:08:30] Speaker A: So I had the listeners that the listeners at home didn't see Andy's eyes roll in the back of his head and almost have a Galfanacus hangover equation moment, being like, Wait a minute, 2007? I was like, no, Letterbox in 2007. Yeah, I watched it back in 01. Get that off Letterboxd. [01:08:53] Speaker C: But, yeah, no, I had Word documents dating back to, I think 2007 was when I started. And then 2009, unfortunately, is the one year that is incomplete because I, like, I had like a. [01:09:09] Speaker B: You were watching nothing but American Pie movies that year. [01:09:12] Speaker C: Pretty much, yeah. Exactly. [01:09:14] Speaker A: Not even just the franchise. It was just Beta House. [01:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:09:19] Speaker B: 77 times. [01:09:21] Speaker C: You know, Blockbuster was on its. On its last legs. I think it was dead by then. But I needed to support them by renting Beta House every week. But no, in 2009, I lost my phone or my phone died, and I had the note on it and had everything. So I have a partial list of 2009 viewings that's based on every theater viewing I went to because I saved the ticket stubs at the time and every movie that I watched while working, because I worked with my friend Tiny, who is my co host on Obsessive Viewer. He and I worked nights together as security guards, and we would just bring our laptops and watch movies every night. So I went through his list in 2009, and I just kind of reworked what movies I saw with him. [01:10:07] Speaker A: And strangely enough, it was Beta House. It was Beta House, everybody. [01:10:14] Speaker B: You were both constantly independently rewatching Beta. [01:10:18] Speaker A: You know, I remember when I was still in high school and I was still keeping, like, when I started keeping my ticket stubs, and I was like, is this a bit extra? But now I'm glad to hear that not only were you keeping your ticket stubs, you were keeping basically pre letter box news in your notes app, I was like, okay, I'm glad I'm not alone. I'm glad. It feels like there was more people out there that did that. [01:10:40] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And, like, letterboxd changed everything. For me, like I. It was like I finally found my purpose, an easy way to track stuff. But. But yeah. So January 11, 2007, at about 4:00pm I watched the Bad Sleep well right after Beta has. Right after Beta. [01:11:00] Speaker A: I didn't know you had a time frame. [01:11:01] Speaker C: I did not. I did not. I did not have a time frame done. I really wish that I would have now though. Can you imagine the data that I could mine from that if I had the. If I had tags for the time that I started each movie. [01:11:16] Speaker A: It'd be funny if you're like you were sad that like you lost your black bear because you always had time stamps. You would hold the movie right next to the clock. [01:11:25] Speaker C: So you remind yourself when you. Exactly. [01:11:30] Speaker A: That was good. That was good. [01:11:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Suffice it to say I don't really remember that much about the Blood the Bad Sleep well when I first saw it. But. But yeah, I will say that. That like that kind of. I don't want to say disconnect but like that kind of like yearning to watch more like period stuff from Kurosawa. It's like I don't want to say like, oh, all of his modern stuff is not as good as like his period stuff because that's just not true. Like I just want to just throw out there a couple of movies. One Wonderful Sunday is an incredible. Just post war Japan. This couple that are just having a date and spending the day together. It is a five star movie for me. It is beautiful, it's wonderful. And then to kind of tie it back to the Bad Sleep well this is very much like a noir movie that he's playing in that genre. But he had done it better some like 11 years prior with 40s, early. [01:12:40] Speaker A: 50S with stray dog. [01:12:42] Speaker C: Stray Dog, which that is again that is, that's one of my favorites. Like I love that movie so much and I think that that's. Those two are probably due to like it being about like post war Japan and occupied Japan and having like that kind of, that kind of subtext to it Here with the black. I keep saying blad the Bad Sleep well it's more this corporate greed, corporate kind of corruption storyline, which is interesting, but it's just there's a lot to it and it kind of just wears a bit thin. So yeah, yeah. [01:13:19] Speaker A: I think the biggest thing with the film that I feel like is a bummer not because Kurosawa doesn't do a good job with it, but it shows that he very much again is a fan of Shakespeare. Especially the fact that this is Hamlet. This is like the most, arguably one of the most popular, if not the most popular Shakespeare play. And to have Kurosawa do an adaptation of it would just be seen, would be a slam dunk. But it's very clear that having that as the foundation. There are moments in the film where he is more interested in talking about the. The corruption of capitalism that people have on in the corporate system, as well as the amount, like the big, like early on. Some of the best moments are basically when Nishi is like, pulling these, like, some subordinates aside, being like, like with Wada when he has like, the tapes and he's just being like, this is how they talk about you when you're not around. Yeah, this is the. This is the company that loves you, per se, and they're just basically talking about you like you're nothing. Like, do you really still want to fight for these guys? Like, those moments are definitely the most interesting. It seems like Curacao was very much in, engaged with. And then every now and again, it does have the energy of like, shit, Hamlet. All right, yeah, let's go back into this. Let's do this again. This is. This beat. [01:14:33] Speaker B: And well, well, and again, it's, you know, it's. It is a debated idea of whether or not this was even meant to be a Hamlet adaptation, because I don't think there's any record of Kurosawa describing it as a Hamlet adaptation. Could. Could just be that this was made three years after his Macbeth adaptation and people were like, oh, I see the similarities. You know, True. So it is. It is. He definitely has other things he's interested in talking about in this movie. Oh, yeah. Than a, you know, a Hamlet adaptation. But it is interesting how the movie will kind of deviate from that story, but then, you know, another scene will happen. It's like, oh, wait, that's like. That's a Hamlet scene. Pretty much. [01:15:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:17] Speaker B: So it's like, even if it was unintentional, it's strange how the film kind of keeps occasionally coming back to it. [01:15:24] Speaker A: But it does feel very intentional to have Mifune in a lead role where he is very reserved for a good chunk of this movie. Like, it's almost as if Kurosawa's aware at that point in his career, especially with Mifune, involved with his projects, where it's like, Mifune can do feral, he can be boisterous, he can be the one that steals the scene every time. Like he said again three years prior, is thrown a blood where this man Basically is running around a room by himself and captivating you as he goes from corner to corner. [01:15:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:57] Speaker A: This feels like a film where it's like, we're gonna make Mifune as stiff as a board the entire time. Very emotionally distant. [01:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:05] Speaker A: But still have those moments that show. God damn it, Mifune. You still know how to, like, peek it out without making it too crazy. Like, again, like, the. I think one of the scenes that came to my head a most, because it was the one scene early on where it's like, basically is. It is introduced that Nishi Mifune's character has not slept with his wife since the marriage. And so everyone's like, what's wrong, Nishi? Got something wrong with you? What's going. Why are you working so late? And, like, when it gets to the scene where it's just them together, Mifune sells the absolute shit out of clear sexual chemistry between the two of them. But also the guilt he feels because he married her only to get closer. [01:16:51] Speaker C: Yes. [01:16:51] Speaker A: To her father. And that's the scene where, like, I think she falls, he picks her up, shuts the door and like, clearly looks like, oh, he could kiss her right now and it would be done. It would be over. [01:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:04] Speaker A: But instead puts her in the room right next to his room, shuts the door and lets her cry while he sits there in pain. And that's just a great moment where it's like, I wish the movie had more of that. And I think when the movie does have that, it feels like there's just big swaths of not a lot of that moments for him to shine. And the ensemble is really talented, too. But again, I don't think they get a lot of huge. A lot of, like, big, iconic moments in their head because, again, it's not really the type of version of Shakespeare. This is a very, like, reserved version of Hamlet to his. [01:17:39] Speaker C: And, like. [01:17:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. [01:17:43] Speaker C: Like, even when it gets to the point where kind of like, late in the movie when things start getting, like, more harried and coming together, like, when, like, truths are revealed and everything, it, like, it has, like, this. This momentum of, like, oh, we're heading into, like, the Shakespeare stuff here. Like, we're heading into, like, this confluence of events that's all gonna tie everything together and everything's, like, backstabbing and all of this, and then it just kind of just peters out. It does. Like. [01:18:11] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:18:13] Speaker C: Yeah. It just. It just feels, like, completely mishandled. Which is something I hate to say about a Kurosawa movie. [01:18:22] Speaker B: Right. Cause it's so rare that he doesn't know exactly how to, like, bring all of his ideas to a head and to a close. So it's just. It feels really weird in this movie how it just kind of. Yeah, it just kind of ends. [01:18:35] Speaker A: An example of that is the photo scene. The photo scene where it's Shimura's character going to. Which we'll find out is Nishi's friend's mom. Because again, we also find out halfway through the film that Nishi is not Mifune's real name. He switched identities with his best friend. And so they could get in. He can get in faster. Basically, Shimura is looking for ultimately Bufune's character. But, like, he goes and he's talking to. I can't remember, is it. Is it. Gosh, whoever. His father who kills himself. Is it a. Is it food? It's not Fujiwara, It's Gosh. But his father, whatever. His. His deceased father's wife, like, his widow is basically like, oh, yeah, there's just like. I have a picture of the funeral and there's this weird guy behind a telephone pole. Shimura's looking at her like, can I see it? [01:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:36] Speaker A: And not only is it the most pristine picture in history, like, a photo like that is so pristine. Not only that, it's the only time in the film. It is a still image where you see M's character just completely lose the facade that he has, like, this very reserved. He looks like he's balling behind a telephone. It is just like. This is how they find out that he's not Nishi. This is how they find. Yes, she has a random. Just like, perfect. Like, there's the proof. [01:20:11] Speaker C: Because, like, just like, the analysis of it, like, oh, he's clearly related to this man. [01:20:16] Speaker B: Like, right. Immediately. [01:20:18] Speaker A: Immediately. It is. [01:20:19] Speaker C: It is. [01:20:20] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. It is just like, oh, so this is where the turn is taking. It's one photo that changes the whole process. [01:20:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:20:26] Speaker A: And then the movie. Yeah, the movie goes into a weird spot where it, like, it makes. There's a music cue towards the end. It's not even an interrogation, but it's like, basically trying to make someone spill secrets. [01:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:40] Speaker A: And so they're just basically making them, like, I guess, starve them to a certain degree. But there's like a comedic music cue that always happens. [01:20:50] Speaker C: Yes. [01:20:51] Speaker A: When they do it, where it's like, we're not gonna. We're not gonna give you any rice gruel until you tell us more about the bank Books and it's like they're kooky and it's, it's also. Yeah. It comes out of nowhere. It feels like because Mifune, again, his character has been reserved and tight lipped for the majority of the movie. And then we get to that point, he basically has like Aldo Rain energy where he's like, I'm going, I'm going to jail. It's fine, I don't care. Yeah, I've been, I've been, I've been. Yeah, I've been through jail before. It's okay. I'm gonna keep doing this. [01:21:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:23] Speaker A: Where the is this coming from? Where this confidence is? If you couldn't just like, if they couldn't catch up to you at any point, which, spoiler alert, they catch up and it's like. And that's so interesting. It's so wild of a choice. [01:21:37] Speaker C: It's something that really kind of bothered me about it in comparison to Throne of Blood. Like Throne of Blood is that lean sub 2 hour movie where everything works so great and then the bad Sleep well is like a two and a half hour movie where like, it seems like it's bouncing around these different tones, it's bouncing around these different plot points. It's a complicated plot all told. But like, it feels like, like you said when that, when that music Sting comes in and it's like, it's like this comic thing. It's like we're two hours into this movie. Like this is about like betrayal and vengeance and revenge and hidden identities and stuff like that. Like, why are we doing this slapstick sort of thing? [01:22:21] Speaker A: Basically, the revenge ends up being. At least the sequence of events is like people close to the VP are committing suicides. They don't have to tell stuff to the cops. [01:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:32] Speaker A: Nishi Mifune gets with WADA and is like, okay, this is what they say behind your back. Let's pretend you're dead. And we'll use that to our advantage. And then for the next 30 minutes, maybe even 45, they basically use WADA to absolutely traumatize. [01:22:49] Speaker B: Terrifying one of the other executives. Yeah. [01:22:53] Speaker A: Which I will say is a cute little thing of doing like a quote unquote Shakespeare ghost. [01:22:58] Speaker C: That's what I was thinking too. [01:22:59] Speaker B: I think that those scenes are probably my favorite sequences. [01:23:03] Speaker C: Mine too. [01:23:04] Speaker B: Just because it feels like. Yeah. I mean, intentional or not, it feels like a really clever way of translating that idea into a contemporary corporate thriller, you know? [01:23:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:19] Speaker B: And it's also just really fun. Fun because, you know, Mifune is really Intense in those scenes because he's like, very, you know, do you see how they treat you? You know, you know, he gets to flex a little bit more. [01:23:33] Speaker A: And we also, in those scenes, get to see how Kurosawa works with limitations because there's such little light in those moments with the ghost moments that they have to use the car headlights to light a lot of the moments and use that creatively to make it more intense and showing again that, like, you know, Kurosawa can definitely be a phenomenal storyteller without having ungodly amounts of money for samurai ethics. [01:23:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:23:59] Speaker A: And again, yeah, it's like the movie shines a lot where it's. Again, Kurosawa with. I mean, film's got great shot composition. There's some great little moments with the score, excluding the comedic score pieces and the writing. Even though it very much feels contained, confused about, like, is this gonna be more about Hamlet or is this gonna be more about the corporation in this scene? [01:24:19] Speaker C: Right. [01:24:20] Speaker A: Doesn't really matter. But then, like, there's little moments, like, towards the end where it's like, yeah, I can't wait for us to fully talk about how that end goes. But, like, there are moments where it's like when they're talking, when Nishi and his friend are talking about, like, this is the plant where we met and where we used to work. We used to fight each other over there. We all, you know, talk about their life story and it's just two men in like, a garbage heap talking about their lives. And it's like, engaging because it's Kurosawa and it's the writing and the performances. And it's like, God, I wish most of the movie was like this. Or you cut maybe 30 minutes and commit to a two hour, like, version of this that's a little bit more streamlined. And because once Shirai gets, quote, unquote taken care of and just gets sent to an insane asylum, that's when Moriyama finds the picture. And the jig that gets up, like, the. The whole scheme is up. Like, Nishi gets shot at and then he just goes away. It's like the moments that we get are mainly just like Wada and his friend being like, you sure you want to do this? It's like, of course he wants to do this. The amount of scenes that are basically being like, yes, Nishi is gonna commit to vengeance. There's a lot of those scenes in different rooms. [01:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:25:38] Speaker A: And I mean, the. Of course, the most engaging version of that is when they bring in his wife. Like, when they bring in another player to have that conversation. That's when it gets really interesting. And in my opinion, unfortunately, that comes so late in the game. Yes, really. Like, it's also funny too that it's like in early on in the film, you have the brother in law basically say at the wedding, I'm going to kill you if you fucking hurt my sister. And then they use it as a smoke screen to be like, no, I was hunting quail, I wasn't hunting him. [01:26:13] Speaker C: Right. [01:26:13] Speaker A: And then like, he just doesn't do anything else really, and except like drive his sister. [01:26:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:26:20] Speaker A: It's like there doesn't need to be as many characters as they are. That very much feels like, ah, it's Hamlet. We got to have a version of this or that of this character in this. And I mean, since I saw it like yesterday when I watched it for the first time, I was like, there are little moments where it's like, I do really like this little moment, this little moment here. But yeah, it is very much like, damn. I mean, again, it's a good problem to have in terms of just like you have so many good films in your filmography that like a six and a half or a seven out of 10 is like, man, I wish this was a 10 out of 10. [01:26:55] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [01:26:56] Speaker A: Still, like, better than other directors, like best films. Yes. So it's like. But it is just like. Yeah. Hearing, at least for me personally, this being the first contemporary Kurosawa film I'd watched, I was like, man, it's. This movie could really cook. If it just like, I feel like if it just like had a more just dedicated idea of whether or not it was going to be a corporate drama that just so happened to have some Hamlet connections or just a full blown Hamlet adaptation that just pushes like the corporate underbelly, capitalist corruption aspects a little bit more to the side. [01:27:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:27:32] Speaker A: And the film just kind of decides to do both. [01:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:35] Speaker A: And it's fine. It handles it well enough, but not enough to be as good as Throne of Blood, sadly. [01:27:42] Speaker C: I agree. Another contemporary curse throughout is High and Low. [01:27:47] Speaker B: I want to see that. [01:27:49] Speaker A: Yes. [01:27:49] Speaker C: It's a masterpiece. [01:27:50] Speaker A: Not only is it. Yeah, not only the masterpiece, but we're getting an adaptation in like a year. [01:27:55] Speaker C: That's right. I keep forgetting about that. [01:27:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:59] Speaker A: That is Spike Lee and Denzel Washington. [01:28:02] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [01:28:03] Speaker A: And again, that is a contemporary Kurosawa film with Mifune in the lead and that is considered to be one of his best. And it is, again, you can't always have perfect films if you did, you're. You made a deal with the devil, or you're right, there's something wrong with you. You made a deal to get to this point. [01:28:22] Speaker C: Or your name is Zack Snyder. Let this be real. [01:28:27] Speaker A: Your name is Zack Snyder and you have six different cuts of Rebel and you get a. You get a Valhalla animated show that. Yeah, I mean, it's. It is. I mean, I saw. I didn't fully see your review, Andy, but it sounds like a lot of the points that Matt and I have talked about, you've kind of jumped in as well. Is there anything that we've talked about that you haven't brought up or kind of like you're not really grievances, but like, critiques about the film? [01:28:54] Speaker B: No, not really. I mean, this. This movie. I mean, simultaneously kind of the least, you know, the. The least impressive and. And stunning of these three. And also just I didn't find, like, even while I was watching it, I was like, I'm not even actively thinking responses to this film the way I do. You know, to Throne of Blood, where it's like, every scene I'm like, holy shit, how is he doing this? Blah, blah, blah. [01:29:22] Speaker C: Right. [01:29:22] Speaker B: I wasn't even. Not that I wasn't engaged with the film, but it was just like, yes, things are happening. This character just informed on this person. Okay, cool. I have no discourse to add to whatever's being said on this movie, you know? Yeah. I came away from it just kind of feeling like, yeah, yeah, that was okay. [01:29:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:29:47] Speaker A: Hey, it's got a Criterion Collection release. [01:29:49] Speaker C: Cool. [01:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's. Oh, yeah. And honestly, it's one of those. It's one of those films where it's like, if I ran into someone that said it's their favorite Kurosawa, I would love to hear their take on it because in my opinion, it feels like there's just. There's not enough here compared to the other, like, Kurosawa classics, I think. [01:30:06] Speaker B: I think Francis Ford Coppola cites this as his favorite Kurosawa. [01:30:10] Speaker C: I think so too. Yeah. [01:30:12] Speaker A: I was wondering why Adam Driver sometimes talks to the audience and says, have you seen the Blads, the Bad Sleep well? Yeah. Yeah. That's why. That's why the AI electronic team got laid off in 2022. Because Francis, for Coppola was like, I want more questions about the Bad Sleep well, yes. Built into the AI and like, we don't know what you're talking about. [01:30:37] Speaker C: And like, here's the thing. I, like, I feel like. I mean, I have my criticisms of the movie and I stand by those criticisms. That's my perception of the movie. That's my opinion of the movie and everything. Like, here's the thing, this is a Japanese film from 1960. [01:30:55] Speaker A: Mm. [01:30:55] Speaker C: Like if, like. And I know that Kurosawa is a filmmaker who doesn't. He's not, he's not one to make a sloppy film. He's not someone who is going to do like all of these disparate things and then not tie them together in a satisfactory way. So with that in mind, like, I am fully aware that there could be, and most likely is just something about this movie that isn't clicking with me that would make it a bigger, better movie for me, but it's just something that I'm not seeing because, yeah, I. [01:31:34] Speaker B: Mean, to go along with that, I have to assume. I like to think, I'm sure we all like to think this of ourselves, that I am pretty good at picking up on, you know, films from other parts of the world when they're kind of discussing cultural nuances that are not part of my culture. Like, I like to think I'm pretty good at, you know, even if that's not my experience. Even though if I don't live in that culture, I can wrap my head around what they're, what they're saying. I am fully willing to concede that there are probably nuances about, you know, kind of post war Japan and this sort of salaryman corporate culture that just didn't land for me because I'm not really aware that much of, you know, that period, that particular realm of Japanese culture. And I mean, Kurosaw was clearly playing with a lot of, you know, contemporary, relevant ideas and criticisms in the film, some of which I'm probably bound to miss because I'm just not that well read on that period. [01:32:46] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I will say, I mean, I will, I will give the film this. To have a film that is fully Japanese in terms of trying to talk about how the corporate system takes you in and spits you out when it doesn't want you anymore. That is, I bet, pretty damn progressive for the time, I would imagine, in a way where it's like, that's why I think while the ending, I feel like, had a little bit more, there's a lot of issues with the ending. But the last scene where it basically is implied that the VP is just going to die just like everyone else because it's like he's another loose end. Like, that is something where it's like that is pretty striking and dark in a very Kurosawa way to be like. And all this was for naught because all this like this idea of present self preservation in a corporate setting is almost idiotic because corporate self preservation a lot of the times is the corporation has to be preserved. [01:33:44] Speaker B: Right. It's a feudal effort. Yeah. [01:33:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's. That's really cool. It's just a damn shame that to get to that point there's a lot of cool ideas that they could have done that feel like we didn't get to see on screen and were told to us. [01:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:58] Speaker A: In a way that again it's very Shakespearean how those scenes like basically explain Nishi's death. But it's still very shocking that that's like. Feels like there's a part of the film that is cut out. [01:34:10] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:34:11] Speaker A: We're getting like discordly and they kind of get discussed with it and that's. Yeah. And it's very clear too that it's like it is our is 2024 and there is still hell. Like one of the best animated shows to come out last year was from Japan and is based off of a manga about like a person who would rather live in a zombie apocalypse than go back to their corporate job because it was soul sucking and it was killing them every day. And it's like the idea of like the corporate system in Japan being so soul sucking is not new for Japanese media. But I bet in the 1960 from Kurosawa. [01:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:49] Speaker A: That had to be something where it's like damn, he's saying this. That's. That's pretty bold. That being said, why Hamlet didn't really have to be. [01:34:58] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. [01:34:58] Speaker A: It really didn't have to be a Hamlet adaptation or even a loose Hamlet adaptation. [01:35:03] Speaker C: There's like some of it's there fine enough. Like the avenging. What I remember of Hamlet, like just the avenging. The father's death thing. The ghost thing is somewhat similar. That like the makings of it are there, but it just seems a little. Yeah, it's a. It's too loose for my liking. [01:35:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah. It's also so grounded in reality, to be honest. That's like one of the fun things about Hamlet if I remember as a play is the fact that like the way that Hamlet finds out that his father was murdered is because his father's ghost tells him that he was murdered. [01:35:39] Speaker B: Well, and it's a spirit that if I remember right, Hamlet isn't even convinced is actually his father. [01:35:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:48] Speaker B: What is. What are these forces at play? Are these just demons, like messing with people, you know? [01:35:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:55] Speaker B: This movie is so. Yes, grounded and realist, but I think. [01:36:01] Speaker A: It says a lot, especially for a Kurosawa film. And it's like, you know, 20 minutes, 25 minutes in, where I'm like, oh, so Nishi's dad killed himself and that's why he's doing the Vengeance. And then it's not only. It's not until now, we're in where he goes, I'm doing this because my father killed himself and he was forced to do it. [01:36:19] Speaker C: Right. [01:36:19] Speaker A: All right, we're catching. I'm catching on too fast or it's just not that important. I can't tell. Yeah, we got another 90 minutes of this. We'll see where this goes. And again. Yeah, not a bad movie. Again. It's still Kurosawa, so it's still, I think, a good movie and still well put together. It's just a shame that the narrative is a. Is definitely the messiest out of the three of these films. [01:36:44] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [01:36:46] Speaker A: But not as epic, though, because the most epic of these three films. [01:36:51] Speaker C: Yes. [01:36:51] Speaker A: It's so epic that there's a 25 year gap between Bad Sleep well and probably one of his most bombastic epics in his entire career, which is Ron. It's a damn shame he never made anything between 1960 and 1985. That's crazy. [01:37:10] Speaker B: He just kind of like chilled for two decades. [01:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Did nothing else whatsoever. No. [01:37:16] Speaker C: My eyes twitching. I'm very much like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me go back to my letterboxd. [01:37:25] Speaker A: Let me go to 2009 and see 4pm and 2011. [01:37:31] Speaker C: I did a double feature of Yojimbo and Shinjuro. [01:37:34] Speaker A: Ikaru, Ikaru, Ikaru, please. [01:37:38] Speaker B: All right, be straight. Be straight with us. Matt, how many times have you seen Ron? [01:37:42] Speaker C: I have only seen ron. I believe 15. Two times. [01:37:48] Speaker B: Two times. Okay. [01:37:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:50] Speaker B: So you're practically a virgin. A nascent. [01:37:55] Speaker C: Practically. And the first time I saw it was November 29, 2020. Really? Yeah. [01:38:02] Speaker B: Okay. [01:38:03] Speaker A: My lord. [01:38:03] Speaker B: So pandemic film, not just late period Kurosawa, but late period Matt hurt Kurosawa fandom. [01:38:13] Speaker C: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. [01:38:16] Speaker B: Is there. [01:38:16] Speaker A: Is there a reason why you. You took that long fandom to really sit down. Was it the length? [01:38:22] Speaker C: It may have been the length. It may have been the length. More so. It might have just been laziness. Like, I had the. Actually, I didn't have. I don't think I had the Blu ray of it because I think I do. I don't know. But there's a whole thing. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but basically, Ron is not like. Criterion does not have the distribution rights to Ron. It is Studio Canal. [01:38:46] Speaker B: Studio Canal, yeah. [01:38:48] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think maybe because it was a co production in France or something, there's something behind it. But. And like, I desperately want a Criterion release. Really. If I can. Anytime I talk Kurosawa, I want to put this out into the universe. I want a big sprawling Kurosawa Criterion box set like that. Yeah, I know. [01:39:16] Speaker B: I think it's. I think it's too big. Too big. Too cool. They'll never wait. [01:39:21] Speaker C: If that is ever announced, I will weep. Like, I will actually weep tears. [01:39:27] Speaker A: And it would easily be $700. [01:39:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you will. [01:39:30] Speaker C: I. [01:39:31] Speaker B: You will weep, you will buy it, you will ejaculate and then you will weep again. [01:39:36] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [01:39:36] Speaker A: I think the only. [01:39:38] Speaker C: Really, that's just a. That's just a standard Saturday night. In fact, January 7, 2007, I ejaculated after watching. [01:39:49] Speaker A: No. Yeah. The only way you can get it, you get the boxes. You have to dress like Pikachu and stay in the rain. Mud on yourself. You have to be a. Who's the best Mifune cosplay from Seven Samurai. [01:40:00] Speaker C: Yes. [01:40:02] Speaker A: No. Yeah. I had heard that, like, out of all of Kurosawa's films, there was a rumor at one point that this Ron was gonna be one of the first Criterion collection Kurosawa films. Or they wanted it to be. [01:40:13] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:40:15] Speaker A: Maybe especially for Blu Ray. I think it was like they wanted to do a Blu Ray run. But yeah, due to licensing, I think Lionsgate technically had the licensing for a decent amount of time, but that ended up being. I think Kagemusha ended up being their first, like, blue. [01:40:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:40:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:32] Speaker A: But yeah, Ron is. Yeah. Strangely not a Criterion release when it does. I will also piss and shit and be excited. Want to buy the 4k version of it because. God, 4k cursor. Especially a film like this. Yeah, Especially like watching this in 4K was gorgeous. [01:40:52] Speaker C: Oh my God. Like, so with Ron, I, like, for whatever reason, in 2020, I decided like, I owned. I think part of my coping mechanism for the pandemic and lockdown and everything was I started buying up like, re buying a lot of Criterion Blu Rays because I had like the DVDs and stuff. So I have like, I have pretty much every Kurosawa movie that I can get. One of my big things. Another tangent real quick is That I love Seven Samurai so much that it pains me that I Like when I bought like it's gone through so many different iterations on home video. So like that original, like that original dvd, that's the, that's with the white cover, with them on the COVID Terrible transfer all told. Like, the translation isn't great. Like I had. That was my first copy of Seven Samurai and I think I gave it to Tiny and then he eventually sold it. But like I had the two disc DVD release and then when it came out on Blu Ray, I was like, oh my God, I have Seven Samurai on a single disc. I don't need to change discs. This is amazing. [01:42:04] Speaker A: So, God, you're right. I didn't think of it like that. [01:42:07] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [01:42:08] Speaker C: So throughout 2020, I was just buying up the increasing my collection of Blu Ray releases because I've had the DVDs and everything. And so I bought Kagemusha, I think was a relatively recent Blu Ray release for them. Or maybe not, I'm not sure. But anyway, I own that. And then like, I didn't get Ron. I don't even know if I ever bought. I think out of protest, I didn't buy the physical release of Ron, but like I bought like the digital version on Voodoo. But anyway, all that's to say, I watched Kagamusha in 2020 and then Ron a few months later. And one of the things I find so interesting about these two movies is. And I could be, I could be wrong on some of this stuff. [01:42:56] Speaker B: So please, Kagemusha and Ron or. [01:42:59] Speaker C: Yes, yeah, Kagemusha came out in 1980. It was Kurosawa. I believe that he had said at some point that he saw that as like his dress rehearsal for Ron because like he wanted to do Ron. And if I'm not mistaken, Kagemusha ended up getting like production issues that I want to say George Lucas and Steven Spielberg were like, hey, we'll throw some money, we'll help produce it or whatever. [01:43:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I saw, I saw their names in the credits. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will clear. [01:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah, Kagemusha I own. I've yet to watch fully, but I'll definitely need to watch it. [01:43:36] Speaker C: Yes. [01:43:37] Speaker A: But it's incredible. Yeah, I gotta say, shows where Kurosawa is in his career and how many bangers he has to go like, oh, this is a dress rehearsal and it fucking looks like Kagemusha. The little I've seen in that film is like, if this is a dress rehearsal, that's disgusting. [01:43:54] Speaker C: See, here's the thing. [01:43:55] Speaker B: Here's my three hour epic. It's dress rehearsal for another three hour. [01:44:00] Speaker C: Episode for my other three hour epic. Yeah, like, Kagemusha was my first color Kurosawa movie. And, like, that was a transformative experience. Like, yeah, it just, like, that stuck with me so much. And then when I saw Ron, like, Ron's great. And I think that the two movies are pretty much even with me now. But I remember being more partial to Kagamusha than I was to Ron this time around. I like, I. They're even to me, so I loved it. [01:44:33] Speaker A: No, actually, I mean, Andy will tell you he makes fun of me for this, but I have. Every time there's a Criterion sale, I just jump into just buying as much as buying what I feel comfortably doing without. [01:44:49] Speaker B: I don't make fun of you for buying Criterion. I make fun of you for buying the, like, three out of five movies that we watch for this podcast. [01:44:57] Speaker A: Okay, hold on. Like, there's probably one or two Criterions that made fun of me. Okay, well. Well, to be fair, it's. It's. It's Leone. It was Sergi, it was Sergio. I mean, it only makes sense. And also, I can't buy Once. Yeah. And I can't buy Once Upon a Time in America because it's got a weird. It doesn't really have an American distributor. Distributor. So it's like, you know, but. Yeah, but no, like, I actually bought my first 4k Kurosawa earlier this year. I got dreams in 4k, which I can't wait to watch in 4k. [01:45:29] Speaker C: Haven't seen that one yet. [01:45:30] Speaker A: Yeah, again, there's just. There's that. I think I bought Kagemusha at the same time. But, yeah, it just. The color aspect of this is like. It's so funny how it feels like, you know, he could have done color so much earlier in his career. What is his first color film? Do you know? [01:45:46] Speaker B: I just looked it up. It's. It's called. [01:45:50] Speaker A: And he used the power of Internet. [01:45:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's better than Matt. It's called Dodis Kaden, which is a movie about Tokyo slum residents. [01:46:03] Speaker A: Ooh, okay. [01:46:04] Speaker B: Like a documentary? [01:46:05] Speaker A: Is there an actual. It's like. [01:46:06] Speaker B: No, it's. It's a. Like a feature narrative. It looks like. [01:46:10] Speaker A: Is that one of your blind spots, Matt? [01:46:12] Speaker C: Yep. [01:46:13] Speaker A: Okay. [01:46:14] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. [01:46:15] Speaker A: By the way, I just want to say it happened forever ago, but I love how I was trying to remind myself how many of the five or six Kurosawa films I'd watch, and you just Went, oh, I've seen 20. You just, you just sat there. [01:46:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:25] Speaker A: And just let it. Just let that happen. I love that. Thank you for being such a nice guest. [01:46:30] Speaker C: Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. [01:46:32] Speaker A: You could have just said casual and. [01:46:34] Speaker C: I would have stopped. [01:46:35] Speaker A: I would have. [01:46:37] Speaker C: What's funny is I think it might have actually been 21 now that I'm looking at it. But anyway, go ahead. Sorry. [01:46:43] Speaker A: No, that's even. That's even better. That's even better. I'm now absolutely gonna put in the description how many, how many films does matter to see? [01:46:54] Speaker B: 20 with a strike through and then 20. [01:46:58] Speaker A: It'll be 22 by the end of this episode. [01:47:00] Speaker C: Right. But yeah, I've got it on my plane. [01:47:03] Speaker B: Oh, you forgot about Sanchiros who got a two. [01:47:05] Speaker C: Oh, right. [01:47:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That is as. Also funny enough, his. One of his post war films is like 2 hours and 48 minutes. [01:47:13] Speaker C: Just. [01:47:13] Speaker A: I think it's wild how like he was making long ass films before he was in his early years. But to get back on top. [01:47:20] Speaker C: So good. [01:47:22] Speaker A: It's just kind of fascinating looking at his filmography and how many films are back to. Back to back in the 50s and the 60s. Yeah. Then you go to the 80s and then in the 80s it's Kagemusha Ron. And then I believe dreams is either 89 or 99. [01:47:38] Speaker B: It's 90. [01:47:39] Speaker C: Oh, 90. So it's right in the 90s. [01:47:41] Speaker A: So it's like, I mean again, he's in his 70s. [01:47:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:47:45] Speaker A: Point he doesn't need. Especially since it's like clearly with Ron and all the information I think we've all seen, it's like basically like this was his dream film to do. [01:47:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:56] Speaker A: To the fact that he just goes, oh yeah, I'll do another three hour film. That'll just prep me for my next. [01:48:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And I believe at some point in the 80s, I'm not sure where it is, but he started losing his eyesight. Like it was. Yeah. [01:48:09] Speaker A: Apparently he started losing it right before principal photography. Like, basically he was working with like assistants helping him frame shots as well as just muscle memory from all the like storyboards he was making. And like. Yeah, it's. Again, it's phenomenal. Especially I mean it's, it's. I'm never trying to connect to back to Megalopolis. But it's hard not to think about the fact that like we have like this year we have an auteur old age being like, this is the one thing I've been trying to make for like, decades, right? And then we now have Kura now seeing Kurosawa's kind of version of that. And it's just like, fucking insane to think about, like, how the. How there's got to be a fraction of a budget compared to, like, what Megalopolis had. And just the amount of just, like, the location shooting. There's a shot in Ron that I just need to throw out there that threw me for a loop. And it has. It doesn't have blood, it doesn't have a lot of explosions. It's just the fact that there's a bunch of dudes on top of a very high hill. Just a little. This little mountain, little top. And people are just watching from the very bottom and being, like, trying to stage that would be stressful. They look. They look like miles away, right? And it's like, you gotta, like, have radios to be like, all right, and let them go and just be like, oh, my God. [01:49:32] Speaker B: And I also. [01:49:33] Speaker A: Things like that. [01:49:34] Speaker B: I read that, like, for basically every scene, every setup Kurosawa had, like, was, like, shooting it from three wildly different angles with wildly different cameras. So it was like, you know, on one hand, he's probably being practical. Like, this is such an elaborate scene. I want to have all the coverage I can. But also, like, that sounds like a nightmare in itself of, like, trying to make sure every elaborate scene works from every angle. So you could use all of that, right? [01:50:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:50:03] Speaker B: It's just nutty. [01:50:05] Speaker C: In the tragedy of his careers, he didn't come over to the States to do a multicam sitcom. That's a shame. [01:50:13] Speaker A: There is a universe where that did. [01:50:15] Speaker C: Happen, to be honest. [01:50:16] Speaker A: There's. There's got to be at least one episode of who's the Boss or All in the Family. There's gotta be one episode where. And Mafune get started in that episode. [01:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:50:28] Speaker A: Just a businessman coming from Japan. [01:50:30] Speaker B: I remember when Mifune walked into the Cheers bar. Yeah. [01:50:34] Speaker C: Yes. [01:50:36] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [01:50:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean. [01:50:38] Speaker C: Yo, Jimbo. [01:50:43] Speaker A: That's his name. [01:50:47] Speaker B: Yo, Jimbo, Good to see you. [01:50:51] Speaker A: Oh, my God. That's what. Woody Harrison walks into the park. [01:50:56] Speaker C: So good. [01:50:58] Speaker A: There's. There's. There's a gong for no reason. It's horrible. They shouldn't have had. Jesus is way too nice. He's just like, sure, if that's what. [01:51:10] Speaker C: You want to do. [01:51:15] Speaker A: I mean, to be honest, it's like, where do we begin with Ron? Other than the fact that, like, as an adaptation, especially with these three films, Throne of Blood kind of feels already epic enough, even Though that's like super streamlined. It's under two hours. It feels epic in terms of how it does its set design. [01:51:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:35] Speaker A: Its costumes. It's certain moments that are incredibly theatrical. But then you get to this. And from the get go, it is the fact that we're getting some long shots in actual mountains and just watching the boys be boys in actual locations that are gigantic. And we haven't even seen castles yet, but it has this feeling. And again, he did like you said, like Andy, he had already done color before this, but like, it is just watching this, it is almost like I pulled back in my seat. [01:52:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:52:10] Speaker A: As soon as I saw the first color and. [01:52:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:52:13] Speaker A: I mean, just was taken aback. [01:52:15] Speaker B: This, this is not a dig on Kagemusha at all. You can relax, Matt, but I'm good. But I watched Kagemusha in and amongst these films just because all year I've been like, trying to watch, you know, more Kurosawa and other classic Japanese movies. And I had tried to watch Kagemusha back in the spring when I was watching Shogun, but I had a defective Blu ray that stopped playing an hour in. [01:52:45] Speaker C: That's right. [01:52:46] Speaker A: You did tell me about that. [01:52:48] Speaker B: When we were doing this trilogy, I was like, you know, I'm gonna. Now that I've figured out other means of watching movies, I decided to finish Kagemusha. And Yeah. Anyway, it was just interesting how Kagemusha is a gorgeous movie in its own right, but did not prepare me for just the like sheer, stunning, eye melting beauty of Ron and just, just the use of color that's like, yes. Pops off the screen. And it does. I understand what Kurosawa meant when he was saying like, rehearsal for Kagemusha being the rehearsal for Ron, because, you know, it is kind of like he takes a lot of the same ideas and aesthetic trappings and just like dials them up in Ron to the point that it's like, I don't know that I believe that any period in history ever actually looked like this, but I feel like I'm there, you know, like it's. It's like historical fantasy in a way where it just feels so, you know, heightened but also immersive. [01:54:01] Speaker A: It was funny when my. When like Adam was going somewhere and I was starting Ron and he basically made a joke where it's like, oh, you're watching Kurosawa's response to wizard of Oz just as a joke. And to be completely honest, Ron does have that energy of like when Dorothy opens the door for the first Time. [01:54:20] Speaker B: And being like, the whole movie is like that. Yeah. [01:54:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I also say, God bless your wife for you probably saying, sorry, honey, seven hours for this trilogy isn't enough. I think I'm gonna do nine to ten. I'm gonna add Kagemusha. [01:54:38] Speaker C: What a trooper. [01:54:41] Speaker A: Sorry, I can't go to bed tonight. Cockamooch is calling. [01:54:46] Speaker B: But, no, I mean, what you were saying about, I guess the wizard of Oz of it all is it's fascinating to watch a director who spent so much of his career making films and black and white, you know, kind of display this appreciation for color that, you know, so few other movies have. Especially the fact that, you know, color film had kind of been pretty common and popular for, like, over two decades at this point. So it's not like he was on the cutting edge of, you know, literal film technology. He was just making use of it from a perspective that, like, you know, we don't see a lot, especially at that time. I. Matt, you might be able to, like, confirm or deny this, but I think I remember reading at some point that Kurosawa was kind of like, a lot of Japanese filmmakers of the sort of mid century was very, like, resistant to color film or, like, didn't like the idea of making film in color or something and, like, held off for a long time. [01:56:03] Speaker C: That, as the resident Kurosawa expert, I will say that sounds right. I have no idea. But. No, that. That tracks. That makes sense. [01:56:13] Speaker B: So it just feels. It's just fascinating that, you know, when he makes that move into color, that it is so effusive and, like, I'm gonna make the most out of every costume design and set piece and, you know, whatever the horses are wearing and shit like that. Like. [01:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that would make a lot of sense as to, like, you know, him pushing back on that. I could also see it, though, is, like, black and white. Even though he has so many films in his under his belt that are black and white every time, he probably thought of it as a challenge for certain story elements or just, like, again, it's fascinating to watch, like, again, one of his best films, in my opinion, and probably my favorite, and we've already talked about ad nauseam on this episode alone, is Seven Samurai. And, like, the people that die in that movie, it is not. It's not even, like, gory or, like, Hershey's chocolate sauce. [01:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah, there's blood. Really? [01:57:10] Speaker A: No. [01:57:11] Speaker C: Right. [01:57:11] Speaker A: It's. It's basically people getting, like, the very prick of a sword and finding a way to make people see, like, the Reaction to it, but it still impacts well enough. And it very much feels like Kurosawa always is. Like, how can I do this in black and white in a challenging way that still conveys as if it's in color. It always had that energy to it. Well, because you get to Ron and it's like, when Ron brings him blood. [01:57:38] Speaker C: It brings in blood. Yeah. Same with, like, it's not in color, but Sanjuro. Like, it ends with that just bloody geyser scene. And it's also interesting that, yeah, like, he held off on filming in color, but, like, another thing to kind of keep in mind as well is he held off on filming in like, 16 by 9 in, like, widescreen. Until, I think, the Hidden Fortress. [01:58:06] Speaker B: In widescreen. [01:58:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:58:09] Speaker A: First widescreen. [01:58:10] Speaker C: Oh, yep, Yep. [01:58:11] Speaker A: Damn. [01:58:12] Speaker C: So kind of interesting. [01:58:14] Speaker A: It's been a while. [01:58:15] Speaker C: Me too. 58. Yeah, yeah. Yep. [01:58:19] Speaker A: So the bad hadn't slept well yet? [01:58:21] Speaker C: No, not yet. [01:58:22] Speaker B: They were. [01:58:22] Speaker C: Not yet. [01:58:23] Speaker B: They were still up. [01:58:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:25] Speaker C: Yes. [01:58:25] Speaker A: No. Yeah. I mean, he's it very much. It also could be the thing about, like, financially, like, it's probably a lot cheaper to shoot on black and white than it is on color. And it's also. You don't have to worry. [01:58:36] Speaker B: You don't have to make so many choices about production design. [01:58:42] Speaker C: And here's the thing. When you have someone who is without question, a brilliant genius behind the camera, I don't see him shooting not in widescreen or in black and white. I don't see that as a limitation or anything. That's like a showcase for his. For his talent. Like, Absolutely. Yeah. Like, there are scenes. There are scenes in, like, just. Just frames of seven Samurai that are like, print it, frame it. We're good. Like, just the way that he places characters in, like, a tight frame at all times is just. I mean, it is masterful. So. So to see him in color, in widescreen in Ron and Kagemusha is like, God, it's. It's incredible. Like, it is jaw dropping. [01:59:35] Speaker A: Gosh. And it doesn't really ever stop. No dropping either. Because I think the thing that shows just how good of a storyteller and creator, as an auteur, as Kurosawa is the first. Unlike wizard of Oz, where in wizard of Oz it's supposed to pop with the. Just all the different colors you get at once and how crazy it is, it's like, holy shit, I'm seeing greens, I'm seeing yellows, I'm seeing reds at the same time. With Ron, it just opens up to grass, green. [02:00:04] Speaker B: Grass. [02:00:04] Speaker A: Blue sky is a film. Again, the confidence where he's like, you already know if you're seeing green grass, you know that this is something different because it's a Kurosawa joint and you're used to seeing gray grass. You see in a gray sky. [02:00:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:18] Speaker A: See this? And like very dark, like very dark gray blood. And it like. [02:00:22] Speaker C: Yep. [02:00:23] Speaker A: Now we're at a point where like. Oh, we. He's going full stop. [02:00:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:27] Speaker A: Very watercolor energy in the colors, in the color scheme and the designs and. Oh, my God. [02:00:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:34] Speaker A: Could you imagine had hit a Torah in like black and white? Because I feel like his descent into madness is just so. His. His makeup is incredible and it's like you could do that clearly in black and white. But just the fact that every time a new scene shows up with him, his face is even whiter. [02:00:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:00:59] Speaker B: And then subsequently bluer. Like, he literally has like shadows painted. [02:01:03] Speaker A: Into his face is very much like, makes it even scarier. [02:01:09] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [02:01:10] Speaker A: It goes into that madness and it's like God. [02:01:13] Speaker C: And he. [02:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:01:14] Speaker C: On the note about the opening scene and them kind of just being together in that big, vast, open green field, you. I love how that kind of, I guess informs or hints at the, like toward the end where you have like each of the. Each of the kids are in their own, like they. They have like their own color scheme and everything. And then when you get to the end where you have just like a quadrillion amount of people on screen, like, you have so many people all flying like different colored banners and how they kind of converge and like, it is. It is so beautiful. It is so jaw droppingly beautiful. [02:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Even again, even the blacks and whites, like, are just, even, just stylized enough where it's just like, gosh, every evening the quote unquote basic colors that we're so used to seeing in a Kurosawa film also have some more life into it now the whole painting is kind of shown. [02:02:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:02:15] Speaker A: And yeah, it's also the fact that, like, just yet the makeup, the set design, the costumes, I mean, apparently Hittitora's actor, Tatsuya Nakarai, he. He apparently was in makeup for like four hours. She's for that because, like, he's like wild 50. He's like 53 when they shoot the film. And the character supposed to be like 70s and so, like. And I can imagine, like, you can basically be like, listen, this is not gonna be in black and white. This four hours is good. This four hours gonna be worth it because we're gonna See every bit of age and desolation in your face. If we put this time into it. And it. Yeah, it just. I mean, this is probably the first time in a hot minute that I've seen a Kurosawa film that doesn't have Mufune in a prominent role. [02:03:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:03:04] Speaker A: At all. And so it's like, yeah, see this cast. And just like, again, shows just how good of an aut Kurosawa is. Is like, you could probably find a way at the time to get Mufune in this, but, like, why Everyone that's in this are pretty, like, pretty perfect in what they need to do and Mafudi is an old man. Let him rest. [02:03:30] Speaker C: They had also had a falling out. I don't know the specifics of it. I don't know if anyone really does, but like, the last collaboration they had was in 65 with Redbeard. [02:03:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's right. [02:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:03:41] Speaker C: And then they, to my knowledge, they know they never work together again after that. I don't know the specifics of it. I think it's kind of just private. But. [02:03:50] Speaker B: But yeah, I was reading about that a few months back and yeah, it's like you said, there's no like, really confirmed understanding of why it happened. I think they did have. Some people seem to think they did have some sort of, you know, kind of visceral confrontation on that movie or shortly thereafter, but they remained highly, like publicly complimentary of one another's work and supportive and stuff. I think one of them or the other attended some event honoring the other one. I think it was Mifune made a public appearance, his first in years, to attend some ceremony honoring Kurosawa after his death. [02:04:38] Speaker A: There could be like a multitude of reasons. It could be a situation where it's like Mifune or Kurosawa working so long together, it's almost like, well, they're only going to work together. There's always so much. [02:04:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:04:50] Speaker A: Or have that kind of preconceived notions. [02:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and another wrinkle of it too is Mifune wanted to move into more like, production side of things, like have more control over the stuff he worked on and, you know, be able to put his stamp on things. And Kurosawa was Kurosawa. You're not, you know, you're not going to that equal, you know, collaboration with him. Not that that's a downside with him, but if, if you want, you know, your own control, you're going to have to go somewhere else. [02:05:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:05:24] Speaker A: And also, by the time Red Beard is Coming out. It's like, how many phenomenal bangers did they have under. [02:05:30] Speaker C: Oh, my God. Yeah. [02:05:31] Speaker A: So it's like. Yes. It's maybe, again, they're probably. In a professional sense, like, maybe it's time we moved on. [02:05:36] Speaker C: We knew. Right. [02:05:37] Speaker A: Other people. And we're not. We don't hate each other. It's just. It's. It's. At a certain point, it's like. Yeah, it's. It's almost to a certain degree, it's like a De Niro Scorsese. [02:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:05:48] Speaker A: Where it's like, they have so many films under their belt. At a certain point, it's either we're such good friends that we're like, yeah, let's play some more. Let's play around a bit more together. Or it's just like. Like what? We're not. What are we fucking doing? [02:06:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:06:02] Speaker A: What are we gonna do next? [02:06:03] Speaker C: Like, as far as I can tell. I mean. I mean, they worked together previous to what I'm about to say, but, like, from 7 samurai in 1954 through to red beard in 1965, that's quick math. 11 years. [02:06:19] Speaker B: Good job. [02:06:20] Speaker C: They. Thank you. They collaborated in every Kurosawa movie released then. Seven Samurai, I live in Fear, Throne of Blood, the Lower Depths, Hidden Fortress, Bad, Sleep well, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, and High and Low and Redbeard. That's 10 movies in 11 years. [02:06:37] Speaker A: And I'm pretty sure he's also in, like, very. Before Red Silver. [02:06:42] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [02:06:42] Speaker A: The Idiot. [02:06:43] Speaker C: He's. [02:06:43] Speaker A: Idiot. [02:06:43] Speaker C: He's in the Idiot. Rashomon Scandal, Stray Dog. [02:06:47] Speaker A: It's. Again. [02:06:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:06:50] Speaker A: Every time you think, oh, that's all. The curse. Wait, no, there's another one. I can. Yeah. I can imagine if it's like, you have two strong personalities that are very confident in what they can do, and if one technically is in the other person's lane, it'll probably can, you know. [02:07:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:07:07] Speaker A: Some conflict. [02:07:08] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [02:07:09] Speaker A: And again, it's. It shows just how, you know, not really losing Mifune, but not really having Mifune for Ron doesn't really. Doesn't affect the ensemble. [02:07:21] Speaker B: No. [02:07:22] Speaker A: And because. [02:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. [02:07:24] Speaker A: No, it just is, like, to go from, like. Oh, yeah. No. And Ron, we're gonna have the lead of Kagemusha. He is going to be the lead of Ron. He is the King Lear of this story. And, my God, this man is just in. He is putting in a Mufune performance in terms of just the. Just the heart and soul put into the. Just absolutely. Guilt. Desolation. Just the crazed look in his eye. God, the crazed look in his eyes. [02:07:56] Speaker C: It's hypnotizing. [02:07:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, and it's not, you know, a loss in Mifune's absence because Tatsuya Nakadai, in his own right, was like. I mean, Mifune's probably the most famous Japanese actor of all time, especially in the west, but Tatsuya Nakadai, at least at that time, was like probably number two, you know, he was. [02:08:21] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [02:08:21] Speaker B: Huge. And was kind of more known for being in Kobayashi movies. He's in, I think like half a dozen Kurosawa films, but a few of them are like bit parts. [02:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, he's the. Is he's the lead in Harakiri, right? [02:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Which is. [02:08:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. [02:08:40] Speaker B: Probably my favorite movie I've seen since, like diving into all these old Japanese movies. I fucking loved it. [02:08:48] Speaker C: It's. I'm sorry, it's amazing. I know it's not, but I. But I respect the hustle. I respect the hustle, man. [02:09:00] Speaker B: But no, I mean, and I think, I do think it's cool, you know, whatever, whatever did, you know, happen or however their paths diverge between Mifune and Kurosawa. I am, I'm glad that it kind of opened up this, you know, sort of back to back window of collaboration with Mifune and Nakadai because Nakadai is. He's a very different performer and brings absolutely his own quality to, you know, both the Kaguya Musha and Hidetora in Ron. Because. Yeah. I mean, to think about the fact that he was, yeah. In his 50s playing this old, wizened, white bearded, you know, aging lord is just so fun and he embodies it so well because he's not just playing a geriatric, he's playing somebody going insane and basically just losing his marbles over the course of the film. [02:10:00] Speaker A: And a man that at a certain point in the narrative is basically while he is dissenting into madness every time he comes back up to like realization of where he's at, to reality. [02:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:10:12] Speaker A: It's a reminder of the horrible things he's done in the past. And then he goes back into madness. And that's like a good 90 minutes to like the end. And it's like he. It never gets old. [02:10:26] Speaker C: No. [02:10:26] Speaker A: So good. It just really sells it well. [02:10:29] Speaker B: And this, this movie is like, I would venture to say, like never silly. But his performance is somehow able to be like scary and sad and funny all at the same time. Like in a single Gesture or move. He's just so, you know, kind of having this out of body experience as this man losing his mind. And it's. [02:10:58] Speaker C: That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. [02:11:00] Speaker A: And it's. And again, this is the longest of the three in the trilogy. So it's like this has the most air to breathe. [02:11:07] Speaker C: Yes. [02:11:08] Speaker A: Even though it's only 12 minutes longer than the Bad Sleep Well, I think it breathes a lot better than that film, 100%. [02:11:17] Speaker B: You know, despite having a lot of characters and dynamics in its own right, is probably less dense than the Bad Sleep well, in terms of a number of things going on. [02:11:31] Speaker A: Because I. Yeah, again, I think it has that. It has that benefit the Throne of Blood does where it's like, this is basically King Lear to it. [02:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah, this is clearly doing that. [02:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like they don't have to find a way to be like, oh, King Lear in this version, like, owns a corporation, pharmaceutical company. Like, it's. No, it's like this guy is the. Is the hierarchy. He is the lord of this area. And he is definitely worried about dying, clearly, because he gives all of his land to two of his shittiest sons. His two shitty sons. And the. And the one that is basically like, hey, you're making a bad decision. He goes, now I'm banish you. And then basically reaps the rewards of making that decision. [02:12:16] Speaker C: Yes. [02:12:17] Speaker A: And it's like really good how it's just like because of having color as an option, we have the phenomenal choice of Taro in yellow, Jiro in red and Sabaro in blue. [02:12:29] Speaker B: Right. [02:12:30] Speaker A: So throughout the film, even if you're kind of like. If you're just seeing a thousand people on screen, which you will. You will see a lot of people scenes as soon as you see those colors, you know, the affiliation or you know. Yeah, looking at. Yeah, because like there, I mean, like there's a death scene where you don't even see their face when they die. It's. It's Taro scene and it's like it's from the back. Yeah, it's like, you see, you see the back, you see the sun on their back is again, they also have like, think Taro's the sun, Jiro's the crescent moon. [02:13:00] Speaker B: Right. [02:13:01] Speaker A: And then I think Saro's like the wind or waves. [02:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't remember what. Yeah, I think symbol is, but. [02:13:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, but I mean like the use, again, the use of being able to be like using the color to help tell the story on top of being like, not over. No. Like not being too self explanatory, but able to just like really if you need to build in, like, here's what this character needs this other character to know still in a very Shakespearian, very unique way. And while I do think, I think Throne of Blood probably has, I think in my head more theatrical, crazy little shot compositions in the smaller scenes. Because I think a lot of Ron, I think due to his diminishing eyesight as well as to make it easier to work with so many people on set. There is like. It's mainly shot in wide. [02:13:50] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [02:13:51] Speaker A: And so it's like. I think it's only in the interiors. In certain interiors where it's like, oh, this is actually more of a close up or a medium. And it's like, oh my God, a medium shot and Ron go back to longs. [02:14:03] Speaker C: Right. [02:14:04] Speaker A: But it's. It is very much how it conveys that same energy of Throne of Blood without having to be as flashy. And, and I think it really shows it off in the halfway point with the siege on the castle. [02:14:19] Speaker C: Oh my God. [02:14:19] Speaker A: Very much just like. [02:14:21] Speaker C: Can we talk about that for a second? [02:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. This is part one of part two of our Shakespeare. [02:14:26] Speaker C: Oh, yes. [02:14:27] Speaker A: On the next episode. Oh, Andy just. And he just like blues. [02:14:37] Speaker C: But no, that sequence in the middle. Like, I. Again, I've only seen this movie twice, but seeing it this time I'm like. I wrote it in my letterbox review, but I'm not gonna just read it for you guys. But basically, like, I'm. I'm just. My jaws dropped the entire time. That whole sequence leading up to the burning of the castle and him leaving it is like. It is up there with like the final battle scene of Seven Samurai. It's up there with like the Jupiter and Beyond the infinite sequence in 2001, the D day invasion of Saving Private Ryan. Like, it is up there with like my favorite sequences of anything I've seen in any movie. Like, it is just so jaw droppingly gorgeous, haunting. The score is incredible and the fact that it's halfway through the movie is wild to me. [02:15:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just. [02:15:32] Speaker C: It's incredible. [02:15:34] Speaker B: It's such a. It's so strangely spooky for kind of this siege scene, but it is kind of serving the purpose of tolling the bell for Hideatora's fate at the halfway point of the film. But yeah, it's just. It's this weird, you know, it's largely kind of speed ramp, like Slowed down shots, you know, not a lot of diegetic sound happening. A lot of. Mostly music swells and stuff. It's just. Yeah, it's kind of a breathtaking sequence where the movie just kind of stops and it's like, yes, here's. Here's what this feels like. [02:16:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It's also the. Again, showing the confidence is the fact that like we have seen very much so I think a big budget films in the last few years of like having action scenes where it keeps ramping up as the scene progresses. If it's very long. If it's a very long action sequence. And with this it does that. But in the changes are so minuscule or the introductions of things are so minuscule that it's like. It becomes a huge change in how you perceive a scene. When it's like. That's the fight where I think blood becomes the most apparent in life. The film at that point where it's like blood is everywhere. I still think about. And again, I will be very. I'll be transparent. I did just watch this right before. So it is. It is. I will say it is fresh in my head. But I still think about the fact that like, even though when my brain was getting used to the fact the blood was going. Was popping everywhere. [02:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:17:14] Speaker A: It was really. It's really the shot. There is a shot in that siege where someone dies on a second level and there's just blood profusely dripping onto the ground. [02:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Like pouring down their arm or something. [02:17:26] Speaker C: Yes. [02:17:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And then you think like, oh, that is gonna be probably the most shocking thing that's happening in this. And then guns are introduced. And I didn't think about the fact that guns are gonna be introduced to this. And so guns only accentuate the blood even more. And then you're like, oh, okay, well, now that guns are introduced. Now I'm aware. And then fire arrow arrows get introduced. [02:17:46] Speaker C: Yep. [02:17:46] Speaker A: And then the fire arrows becomes. Leads to. I think one of my favorite. Probably my favorite shot frame in the film, which is when Hitatora is just sitting there and there are fire there. There are fire arrows just going. [02:18:01] Speaker C: Yes. [02:18:02] Speaker B: And his face just totally lost it. [02:18:04] Speaker A: Like he wants to die. That's like my favorite part of that. Like, it's probably my favorite scene of the film. Because after he doesn't die from that, he tries to find any blade. [02:18:16] Speaker C: Yes. [02:18:16] Speaker A: To kill himself. [02:18:18] Speaker C: I thought that was incredible. [02:18:19] Speaker A: Find a blade. [02:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:18:20] Speaker C: Yep. [02:18:21] Speaker A: Which leads to him just walking out, waiting for someone to take him out. [02:18:25] Speaker C: And they don't even. [02:18:26] Speaker A: Because they feel so sad. Sorry for him. [02:18:29] Speaker C: Incredible. [02:18:30] Speaker A: His personal hell. Going from like the very beginning of the film where everyone was looking up at him to basically halfway through, it feels like everyone is looking down at him as he. Because he is a shell of what he was. The beginning. [02:18:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:18:45] Speaker A: And then at the same time, it's like they find new ways to shock you. Where it's like, yeah, now you know about the blood. But do you know how we do blood when it comes to stabbings? It's like, because two women, two of his concubines, kill themselves. And it's like, you know, like all in Kurosawa films, if someone gets stabbed, it's just like, oh, and they go backwards. [02:19:04] Speaker C: Right. [02:19:04] Speaker A: But in that, it's like when they both fall, there are spray lines on both of their outfits from, like, the squib. And it's like you see the, like the blood around them. And it's like, that's not how I'm used to. And they like. It keeps adding on top and just. It. Yeah. Matt, it's the fact that that's like 90 minutes. [02:19:24] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [02:19:25] Speaker A: Just right in the middle. And it's like. And I got another incredible. [02:19:28] Speaker C: Yep. [02:19:29] Speaker A: In like another hour of this. Insane. And it's just. It's just a film that is, again, reiterating what we've been saying for the past, like, two hours is the fact that, like, Kurosawa, even in his 70s, is coming in with, like, confidence. [02:19:47] Speaker C: Yes. [02:19:47] Speaker A: As if, like, he's been. As if he's been making color colored epics for decades. [02:19:54] Speaker C: Yep. [02:19:54] Speaker B: As if that would be epics of color. Logan, thank you so much. [02:19:59] Speaker A: I was wondering if you were gonna just. If that was you call me on that. But it is just fascinating how he leaves everything on the screen where it's like, you know, we've. We have now gotten plenty of, in modern sense, older auteurs doing that with their films. But it feels like almost. Almost like whether it's. They don't have the technology to do it, how they wish they would have done it, or it's just like they don't know how to fully introduce or show that on screen. And then here's Kurosawa in 1985. And, like, just every frame is just like, you could turn this into a print and I would put this. [02:20:38] Speaker C: Yes. [02:20:39] Speaker A: Wall. [02:20:39] Speaker C: Like, absolutely. [02:20:40] Speaker A: I mean, the most. I think the. The one shot from this film, other than, like, Hinatora's horrifying face is like, in every scene that was like, burned in my Brain that I knew about is like the final main character kill, which has that blood streak. [02:20:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. All over the wall. Yeah. [02:21:00] Speaker A: Again, it is like. It shows, too, how. It's like he has the ability to do that. Every character that has a speaking role could basically die that way, but they don't. If it doesn't have any. If it doesn't have any service to the plot, if it's. Honestly, if it's scarier to have someone's decapitated body just lay in the grass, it's more. We're just gonna do that. We're not gonna have a huge bun of blood. We're not gonna do this. And it's like, it just shows just how even being, quote, unquote, restrained a little bit in certain aspects can make it more impactful. Even though you have the ability to do that because you're Kurosawa and you have like a thousand people on your staff, right. And you're basically going, go up that really tall hill and I'll shoot. I'll shoot from there. We'll do this, we'll do that. Like, it's. It is. It's fascinating to see a creator, like an auteur at that point and just, like, be able to just be like, yep, we're going to do it. [02:21:55] Speaker C: Yep. [02:21:55] Speaker A: They're going to do King Lear. [02:21:57] Speaker C: Yep. [02:21:57] Speaker B: Yeah, here it is. [02:21:58] Speaker A: And it's like, well, shit, really good. This is really good. [02:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Just to be so, I don't know, maximalist or your style, like, at this very late stage in his career is just a really cool thing to see, because I feel like a lot of filmmakers get their kind of. They're a lot of great filmmakers anyway, they get their big one that really kind of like blasts their style out to the world, you know, somewhere in the middle or early part of their career. And then kind of from then on, it's like, okay, well, how can I find clever ways to, like, do something I've never done before, but not necessarily just go bigger every time? And this film, you know, is over 40 years in the making and is the kind of, you know, superficially the grandest thing he's ever done. Yeah. In terms of scale and diversity of what you're seeing on the screen and things like that. [02:22:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, because after this. I mean, after Ron, he does. He does dreams, which is basically, I'm gonna bring my. I'm gonna take all these wild dreams that have been in my brain for a while and just put them on screen. Which is very classic. Kurosawa it feels like. [02:23:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:23:12] Speaker A: And then he has another film in the early 90s that is I matadaya. [02:23:17] Speaker B: Is that what that is? [02:23:18] Speaker A: I think so. [02:23:20] Speaker C: Last movie between that, he had Rhapsody August. [02:23:23] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. With Richard Gear. [02:23:25] Speaker A: Richard Gere. Yeah. Richard Gere said that. And then Matadayo is not only his last film, it's a. Shiro Honda's last film, the man who directed the original Godzilla. Because it's another thing too, apparently, with Ron, when it came to the action sequences, even though Kurosawa has plenty of experience, apparently he asked Ishiro for guidance. [02:23:45] Speaker B: On certain, like, the large scale of it and stuff. [02:23:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Because he was. Because apparently she was like. I was like, you're. You were a soldier, right? He's like, yeah. Like, can you help with, like, like with this? And like, yeah, I'll just help from here. Like a little collaboration here and there. And that's. It's just fascinating to think that. It's like he had three more movies after this, but Ron just feels like it could have been a swan song. [02:24:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:24:07] Speaker A: Have to make any more after this. And especially that final shot of the movie is also like, I read. I rewound. Rewound. It's not vhs, but I. I went back and I like, rewatched like the last five minutes because it just was like that last shot could have so many different interpretations. And it's so beautiful. And it has like this great. Again, has that classic Kurosawa tragedy without the Shakespearean tragedy on top. And so it's like with that last scene with the music hitting and the sun hit, and it's like, there's just so much that is like, it is. It. It is overwhelming. I think this film is very much overwhelming in a good way. [02:24:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:24:52] Speaker A: But it is just like it is. Again, I will beat it. I will just like, I'll. It is hard to just not be just immensely impressed at his age. Like you said to go maximalist and just keep going. Even when it feels like you could probably pull it back here. Like, he is like, you don't have to do that. Like, it's. It's very much as Kurosawa is the king of, you know, other autores. You could probably, like, oh, this is where they probably spent most the money. Or they were planning on putting most of the money. And Kurosawa is like, the whole thing. Yeah, the money went. It's, It's. It's. From the beginning, that grass was very expensive. Like, that's the kind of aspect where it's like, apparently there's also, I think that this is very much shows how much has changed since he started directing and writing is the fact that, like, I think at one point he was talking to. I think he was talking to Sidney Lumay, mostly known for. Also a classic auteur. But yeah, he made 12 Angry Men, which I love. That's like one of my favorite films of all time. Apparently they were talking and like, Lumet, some importance were like, why did you frame this shot like this? Why did you frame this shot like this? And at one point, I think Kurosawa said, because if I turned it just an inch to the left, there would be a factory. And if I went an inch to the right, there's an airport. [02:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:26:12] Speaker A: It's funny to think, God, that's. [02:26:14] Speaker B: So the framing was just by. [02:26:21] Speaker A: You have to work in your. In your boundaries. But that doesn't mean you can't just have those boundaries. Boundaries. Everything in it pop. [02:26:28] Speaker C: Right. [02:26:28] Speaker A: And I think that's phenomenal. Where it's like, I. Because I don't even know how much Ron cost. Like, that's the thing. [02:26:34] Speaker B: It was like 11 or 12 million at the time in Saint, which was the most expensive Japanese film of all. [02:26:42] Speaker A: Time at that point, which I can 100% believe. But I think even like, with inflation, that's not. That's like maybe 70 million. It's not even like a. It's not even like Alien sequel budget. [02:26:55] Speaker C: Right. [02:26:55] Speaker A: Like, it's like, it's still like the fact that it's like watching this film being like, this is one of the biggest budget a Japanese film had. And Borderlands had 120 million. Yeah. Phenomenal. Yeah. [02:27:08] Speaker B: 11 million in 1985 had the purchasing power of 32 million today. [02:27:16] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [02:27:17] Speaker B: So really not a massive. I mean, obviously it was a massive production, but, like. [02:27:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [02:27:22] Speaker B: Not the hyperinflated budgets that we see today. [02:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah. How many. How many full of dews can you buy with that? [02:27:29] Speaker C: No. Jesus Christ. [02:27:30] Speaker A: At least four, maybe four. [02:27:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:27:33] Speaker A: But would you want to buy that many? [02:27:34] Speaker C: I guess. [02:27:35] Speaker B: Would you want to buy one? [02:27:37] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. Well, I gotta be honest, folks, so we could definitely talk about this for another hour and a half, but I wanted to just like, what are the big things that you wanted to come across, especially when you watched it this time for both of you? Like, what did you. What are, like, the things that we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to really get across? [02:27:54] Speaker B: Matt, I'll let you. [02:27:56] Speaker C: Okay. A couple of things, really. And not much here. Just. Just one. Just to just to not necessarily plant a seed here or anything, but just. Just to throw this out there, I have not seen Dreams, Rhapsody in August, or Matadayo. And, you know, considering those are, like, the three final Kurosawa movies, it somewhat of an odd trilogy, I would say. And I haven't seen him. So. Interesting. Just gonna throw that out there, so. [02:28:25] Speaker B: Matt, get the spreadsheet. [02:28:29] Speaker A: Matt. You know what's so funny is that you didn't have to butter me up that way. I really like, when I was watching Ron, when I realized I had missed. Because I was like. While watching Ron, I was like, is this like his second? Because I thought it was his second to last film. Yeah, Dreams. I thought Dreams was his last film, but I was like, ah, we got it. I was. In my head, I went, last film's a Kurosawa. [02:28:49] Speaker C: Nice, nice. [02:28:50] Speaker A: There it is. That's. That it is. Because there's no such thing as the fall of Kurosawa. [02:28:55] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [02:28:56] Speaker B: The last of the only road. [02:28:57] Speaker C: Absolutely the only road. But when it comes to Ron, the. Something I just want to mention is like, I. I'm not well versed in King Lear. I saw a production of it once, and it's gone from my brain. I did. I did promise you guys an anecdote about that. About that. About that theatrical experience I had. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went to the. Basically, a friend of mine was in a production of King Lear. This was well after she had left college. It was at und, and it was like the final performance of the head of their theatrical department or something. He was retiring or something, so it was a big deal. So I went and I was in line to get my ticket at the box office, and this kind of older gentleman was in front of me, and, like, he got the ticket. He's kind of like, harumphing around, and he gets. He buys his ticket, and the ticket taker is like, all right, we'll enjoy the show. And then the guy who clearly did not want to be there said, yeah, three hours. And then. And I was like, jesus Christ, dude. My God. [02:30:20] Speaker A: Gosh, I've. I've had. I've had to say that, but less. But less mean when talking to people. Like, you should watch this. It's three hours. [02:30:31] Speaker C: I just. [02:30:32] Speaker A: That's so funny. I just. [02:30:33] Speaker C: I like, I. It's. It's like, seared into my brain because I'm like, this guy probably has, like, a grand. Grandchild or a child that's, like, pouring their heart out on stage, and this fucking guy is like, yeah, I'm going to be here for three hours of my life. Like, okay, it's Shakespeare though. Like, I mean, you know, come on, come on. But when are you ever going to watch it again? Exactly. But as far as Ron is concerned, even though I don't really have like that like basis of like a deep knowledge of King Lear, it's like this still feels like that Shakespeare adaptation of like of something. It feels very Shakespearean in a way that the Bad Sleep well doesn't and Throne of Blood absolutely does. And I just love that we are graced with three Shakespeare adaptations from Kurosawa. And I love that one is one that is one of my favorite movies of all time. Throne of Blood. It is streamlined, it's brisk, it's. It's propulsive the entire time. And then we get the Bad Sleep well, which again is kind of a mixed bag. It's loose and everything. But I'm glad that we also got this epic, sprawling, gorgeous to look at, just massive scale movie. And I just, I love that as like a trilogy of. As an odd trilogy as it were. I just think that it goes out with a banger. I love Ron. [02:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:32:08] Speaker A: I agree. I love Ron. What would you both. I would say rate it because again, I watched it so recently I didn't even get to see either one of yours. Kind of recent reviews. [02:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I just, I didn't log it until right before I got on for recording this, but. [02:32:23] Speaker A: Oh, how convenient. How convenient. [02:32:28] Speaker B: But yeah, I mean I would, I would give it four out of five, but this is a movie that I have such immense respect for. Just like every minute that I'm watching it, you can see the artistry on full display that I think all I might need is either a rewatch or seeing this on the big screen for that profound respect to become like actual, you know, effusive personal love. I think, you know, I had a little trouble with like, you know, really latching onto any of the characters besides Lear or you know, Hidetaro. So you know, that kind of held me back a little bit. But you know, I think there are a lot of movies that I've watched that like the first time I was like, okay, yeah, I can see how that's cool. But it didn't like, you know, hit me all the way in the heart. But then like on, you know, further reflection or for rewatches kind of the, any issues you had with it just kind of start to melt away in the face of like the experience that it is and the unique kind of experience that this movie is in particular because there's just, you know, you can point to any number of grand, great, either biblical or, like, war epics and things, but none of them feel the way that Ron feels. And Kurosawa brings so much of his style to it while also expanding on everything he's ever done before with it. And it makes for just a really. You know, it's a monumental movie to. To experience. So. [02:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:34:23] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [02:34:24] Speaker A: No, I. Yeah. Especially when it comes to, like. Yeah. I think a lot of it also could just be. I'd have to read the. The original text again with King Lear, but, like, just as an ensemble, it very much feels like the emotional residence if it's not hit Tora. It is just trying to engage with everyone's intentions. Because I will say if. If anyone, when you go into watching this and you're like, gosh, I really like the Sabro guy. This guy. I can't wait to see more of this guy. Well, yeah. [02:34:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:34:56] Speaker A: Just be wary that he is not. Even though he has main character energy, he is not the main character in the story. But when he does show up in the film, I think is some of the most interesting moments, especially when it comes to, like, we get hitator in a way that is just like the most. It's like. It's the most heartbreaking stuff, I think, is when it's Sabro and Hidetora. And I think, like, yeah, it's. There is. There is something here that I completely understand where it's like, it is not the favorite, but it is like, you can't help but respect. You can't help to see the artistry put on. Just put on screen. And it's just like. [02:35:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:35:40] Speaker A: Honest to God, since next year is its 40th anniversary, I hope to God. [02:35:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:35:45] Speaker A: That if we get a 4K. I mean, all three of us, let's go see it. Let's go see theaters. [02:35:51] Speaker C: Oh, my God. [02:35:52] Speaker A: Absolutely. I will. [02:35:53] Speaker C: I am so there. [02:35:54] Speaker A: Yes. I would. Who would you like to do the forward? Spike Lee. Let's do Francis for Coppola. Let's get him to do the forward for. [02:36:02] Speaker B: Let's get a Zack Snyder. [02:36:05] Speaker A: And he'll be like, I've never seen that 30 minutes of him talking about. [02:36:09] Speaker B: He just likes talking about Jesus. [02:36:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, God. [02:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:36:15] Speaker A: That's. That's Kurosawa Shakespeare trilogy. It's. I would say it's. All three are worth watching. It's just. Especially with bad sleep. Well, you know, it's. You know, content may vary depending on, like, how much you're invested in terms of its approach to the Hamlets material. But when it comes to Throne of Blood and Ron, like, I think to me personally, they're on the same level. Like, I think I love both of them. They're not like, again, they're not. They're probably like a four and a half out of five. So again, it's like, oh, no, they're. They're nine out of tens, basically. [02:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah, they're great, right? [02:36:46] Speaker A: Like, they're both phenomenal films that, like, I would highly recommend another case of just how Kurosawa is just put it. Pumping out bangers regardless of the decade. [02:36:55] Speaker C: Yes. A master of his craft. Yep. [02:36:58] Speaker A: Yeah. But speaking of bangers, we got one more trilogy. In November. We got one that Andy and I were both like, well, we should probably do this. I think, you know, it's. By the time that episode comes out, it'll be the season of giving. It'll be the time to really give the people what they probably want. And Andy, why don't you tell the nice people what we're gonna give them? [02:37:24] Speaker B: On November 30, we're doing a trilogy of character dramas, kind of a dual. Dual role, dueling duel roles from the esteemed English actor Tom Hardy in the Venom trilogy. Venom? [02:37:45] Speaker A: Yes. [02:37:46] Speaker B: Let There Be Carnage and Venom the Last Dance. [02:37:49] Speaker A: We didn't know what hit him, but before we finish up this episode, we wanted to say, Matt, thank you so much for being on this. Where can anyone find you, socials wise, as well as the podcast, of course. [02:38:05] Speaker C: First of all, thank you guys. This has been a blast and I'm a big fan of your show, so I'm very happy to finally, finally drag it down in my own way. [02:38:16] Speaker A: Stop it. You're already going to be on the next Kurosawa trilogy. You don't have to butter us up that much. [02:38:21] Speaker C: Yes. As for where people can find me, I do host my own podcast called the Obsessive Viewer Podcast that can be found@essessive viewer.com It's a weekly podcast where I review one or two new release movies each episode. Usually it's one theatrical, one streaming, but it's a lot of fun over there. I also occasionally Write reviews on obsessiveviewer.com and I also have a couple of other podcasts that are kind of dormant right now, but I've got a Stephen King focused podcast called Tower Junkies that is all things Stephen King. And then I have a solo podcast where I go through the Twilight Zone as a first Time Viewer and other classic and contemporary sci fi anthology shows. That podcast is called Anthology so you can find those anywhere. And you can also follow me on letterboxd at the username of Obsessive Viewer and all the socials obsessiveviewer as well. And I think that that should do it. Yeah, yeah. I also have a patreon patreon.com obsessiveviewer if you want to pay me. So that's all the ways you can find me. Thank you guys again so much for having me on. This has been a blast. [02:39:33] Speaker A: Oh, of course. Yeah. First of many. We can't wait to do more. Especially Kurosawa stuff. We. [02:39:39] Speaker C: Hell yeah. [02:39:40] Speaker A: We already got you booked for whenever we do the last films of Kurosawa. [02:39:43] Speaker C: I'm so there. So freaking there. Yep. [02:39:46] Speaker A: But yeah, yeah. Again, thank you so much for being a part of this match and as always, I'm Logan. [02:39:50] Speaker B: So I'm Andy Carr. [02:39:53] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. [02:39:55] Speaker B: Bye.