Episode 89: The Odd Wolfman Trilogy

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to odd trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carter. [00:00:24] Speaker A: In odd, odd trilogies with Logan and Andy. We take a trio of films, whether tied by thematic elements, cast and crew, or even just numerical order. And we discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding each one. And today, in honor of the Halloween season, since our last episode was the Joker starter pack to get you all started for full of do for the full adoodoo. Probably the biggest October release, I would imagine. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:53] Speaker A: We decided, you know, we have a tie in trilogy for October. Let's get a Halloween tie in trilogy. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Something spooky. [00:01:00] Speaker A: No, I'm not talking Michael Myers Halloween. We're just talking about the actual season because we got a trilogy that we thought would be a fun time, especially in this current season. And we thought at a certain point that it might tie in with a recent release, but that got pushed back to next season. [00:01:15] Speaker B: We're doing the terrifier trilogy. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, we certainly are. Actually mean, this might be a spoiler. We're probably gonna do that. [00:01:21] Speaker B: We could easily do that. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah, we can easily do that, for sure. [00:01:24] Speaker B: But we just had this idea before Terrafari three had a release date. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Yes. But no, today we are actually doing the odd Wolf man trilogy, in case you don't know. Usually when we do a literal trilogy that has odd in it, we are taking three films that are basically kind of tackling the same type of story. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Which in this case is basically taking the story of a Mandev, an unknowing man, basically being bitten by a wolf in the trials and tribulations of becoming a werewolf. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:01:52] Speaker A: A lycanthrope, if you will. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:54] Speaker A: And we today we are discussing the universal monster classic, 1940 one's wolf man, as well as the Mike Nichols adaptation, per se. [00:02:05] Speaker B: That's Jeff Nichols dad. Not quite. It's a throwback for those who. [00:02:11] Speaker A: It is a throwback. And he threw it at me, and I was hurt. I was hurt psychically by that. Yes. Mike Nichols 1994 film, Wolf, starring Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer. And then our final film in our trilogy is the last time the classic Wolfman story was put on screen in some way, shape, or form, which is 2000 ten's the Wolf man, starring Benicio del Toro and directed by Jumanji. [00:02:37] Speaker B: Gosh. [00:02:38] Speaker A: His other films, Captain the First Avenger and then Jurassic park three's Joe Johnston. A real mix of his career. And so today we thought, since we've done situations like talk about, you know, odd Pinocchio as well as even odd Nutcracker. Kind of like trios. We thought it would be fun for Halloween to take a classic monster and talk about three different interpretations of the same classic beast. [00:03:05] Speaker B: God, we could probably just do odd trilogies for all the universal. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it's funny, too, because technically, in this trilogy, Wolfenk could be in another trilogy of just the nineties interpretations of the classic universe because, I mean, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. But wolf practically exists because at the same time, there was Francis Ford Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula, as well as Kenneth Braun as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. And since the Wolf man story, the original universal film, is not based off of a classic novel, it's an original story per se. [00:03:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:41] Speaker A: It. [00:03:42] Speaker B: They didn't have, like, an author to put. [00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, they're not gonna put long Cheney junior because he's. He is the wolf man. [00:03:48] Speaker B: He is George Wagner's. [00:03:50] Speaker A: George Wagner's the Wolf man. No, they just let. They just let Mike Nichols do a midlife crisis film. [00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:56] Speaker A: With a Harry. Jack Nicholson. [00:03:59] Speaker B: So. Just Jack Nicholson. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Yes. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. To start off this trilogy, we are definitely going to talk for however long we're going to find out, because we're going to talk about the classic film that basically popularized the idea of the werewolf in the early 20th century, which is, in fact, the Wolf Man, a film that basically has a horror icon son at the time, in the early. In the 19 hundreds to, like, the 1920s. Lon Chaney Sr. Is most notably not only a makeup artist, but also a classic movie monster in himself with films like Hunchback and Notre Dame, as well as the Phantom of the Opera. [00:04:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Which is a classic black and white film that basically. Lancini Sr. I believe, did the makeup on himself. His son is most iconic in his career for being the Wolf Man, a film that basically follows an american going to a small town, a small village in England that basically is not necessarily run, but has, like, his british father is like an heir, or at least like, just is a nobleman that lives in the small town. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, he's a. He's a wealthy. I don't know if he. Is he technically an inventor, but he's. He's like some kind of scientist or he's. [00:05:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker B: Professor or something. [00:05:19] Speaker A: He's got a big telescope. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:21] Speaker A: He really likes euphemism for anything. [00:05:23] Speaker B: No, he literally has a big telescope and he's very wealthy and. Yeah. Clearly has a lot of influence in the town. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And in the film, basically, Larry Talbot, also known as Lawrence Talbot, goes to his father's estate because his brother, who looks very similar to Larry, but I don't think they're twins. I think it's genuinely just. They just look very close in age, has passed away. And so Larry is next to basically be in line to get the estate as well as the heir to whatever his father does. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:05:57] Speaker A: And so his son is basically brought in, like the, you know, the rebellious american son of this, the outlier of this kind of, you know, noble family, and is now asked, you know, oh, do you want to, you know, take care of this? He's like, oh, let me think about it. And at the same time, he falls for a engaged woman. They go on. They go on a not date to a Romani camp. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:23] Speaker A: With a bell, goeski. They don't, of course, since it's the forties, they do not call them Romani. They call them the class. [00:06:30] Speaker B: Yep. See? [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yes. And you will hear that term is said a lot specifically in the 2010 film. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:38] Speaker A: Because that was just of the time. It's not. It's not even trying to be an excuse, just stating a fact. It was that time. [00:06:44] Speaker B: That's just. Yeah. [00:06:46] Speaker A: And then as they're going on their non date, Larry gets bitten by a wolf. He takes out the wolf and then basically becomes the new Wolfmande. [00:06:55] Speaker B: Yep. [00:06:56] Speaker A: The wolfman. And that is actually. [00:06:58] Speaker B: That's not accurate. This is the wolf man. Wolfman will come later. [00:07:02] Speaker A: The joke with the last episode is this is the. [00:07:05] Speaker B: Get it right. [00:07:06] Speaker A: The space wolf. Space man. And then the Benicio del Toro ada remake of the story is just the space wolfman. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:15] Speaker A: There's no even hyphen. [00:07:17] Speaker B: No, it's just. It's just all one word. [00:07:19] Speaker A: But that is the plot of the wolf man. Because in case you don't know, the film is, like, 69 minutes. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:27] Speaker A: It is barely an hour, honestly. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Not like, you know, not off. Stay off par for the time. Movies were a lot. Generally a lot shorter than. [00:07:37] Speaker A: But I must. [00:07:37] Speaker B: We're talking about, like, gone with the wheel. [00:07:40] Speaker A: But I must say, considering that the last film we did that was kind of you before this era, in the silent era, with the man who laughs, being that film being 2 hours shocked me. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:49] Speaker A: When, like, most of these, like, especially with the universe, I thought that movie. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Was gonna be like an hour. [00:07:52] Speaker A: And it was not. No, it was. It was nearly two. Well, this film is basically. This film is cut and dry, straightforward. Exactly what we say it is. It is a man being turned into a wolf and trying to deal with it. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:06] Speaker A: And it's when they figure out a solution, the film ends. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Yeah. It's. And I think. I think really, it's like, most effective is kind of this, you know, I don't know, metaphor, I guess, for, like, going insane or losing one's mind. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Mental illness. [00:08:25] Speaker B: Mental illness, yeah. Because Larry's whole. The kind of drama of the film is, you know, Larry gets attacked by this wolf creature and starts himself becoming a wolf man, and nobody really believes him. And so it's him kind of trying to convince people, like, hey, I have no idea how this is happening. [00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:48] Speaker B: And everybody's like, oh, you're just a psycho killer or something. Or, you're crazy. No, this is actually happening to me. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Because a big part about the. The town as well is that his father is basically friends to a degree, or very much strong acquaintances with, like, the local doctor. [00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:06] Speaker A: As well as being pretty tied with the law enforcement there, which just so happens to have one of their cops be tied to Larry's love interest because he's engaged to her love interest. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:19] Speaker A: And so, like, basically, when things start to go down and things are coming to the Talbot estate, like, it basically goes through the dad to a certain degree. [00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Because Larry is so new, and it's like, well, I don't understand why your son would be doing this. He's just been here for two days. Like, that's the kind of energy the film has. And also something that I forget about this film. And also something that, like, clearly they realized with the beneath the del Toro remake, and they changed a. Was the time period. Because clearly in the wolf man, it's like modern day. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's contemporary. [00:09:51] Speaker A: It's contemporary. While as, like, which is kind of like. Is one thing that you don't think about when it's. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah. You just kind of assume, yeah, it's a period piece. Because it's like, well, no, it was just made in the period. [00:10:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Because again, it's like when you think of Dracula and Mary Shelley's, nine times out of ten, they will try to put it in the era those are written. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:10] Speaker A: With the. I think the monster movies being a bit of a difference. I think they're kind of modern, the universal ones. [00:10:16] Speaker B: It's been a while since, like, which ones? [00:10:18] Speaker A: Dracula and Frank. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Dracula's contemporary. [00:10:21] Speaker A: I don't remember. Again, it's been a hot minute since I seen either one. I. Frankenstein I don't think is. But Dracula I know with Dracula. The big thing about Dracula, Invisible man is contemporary invisible man, for sure, because. [00:10:33] Speaker B: That'S like a Sci-Fi movie. Yes, almost. [00:10:36] Speaker A: And also, I think the sequel to invisible Man, I think he's fighting for the allies to a degree. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Okay. I've never seen the sequel, I think. So invisible man returns. [00:10:45] Speaker A: It's been a long time. So I've had to delve deep into the monster, the universal monster treasure chest of just, like, craziness. [00:10:51] Speaker B: The cum. The cinematic universal monster. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Yes, yes. The cum, which is still a better name than dark universe now in terms of notoriety, but the wolf man is a straightforward flick that, in my opinion, is mainly a six out of ten. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:11] Speaker A: But. And honestly, I would give it a seven, mainly because of its atmosphere. And as of the time, it doesn't pull any punches in terms of, like, what it's telling you is going on. In terms of, like, the. The whole kind of conflict in terms of the. Is this psychological? Clearly it isn't. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Like, how do you even. How do you even discover that? And how do you show people that, especially when you yourself don't know how this is happening? [00:11:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. It's very matter of fact about the reality that this is happening to him and that we're kind of thrust into Larry's perspective because we know this is happening. We're seeing it happen, and nobody else is seeing it. Nobody else believes him. And so I think, really, the biggest strength of the movie is Cheney's performance. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Similar to Conrad Veidt in the man who laughs like. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Just a very tragic performance. [00:12:09] Speaker A: He just. He holds it on his back as well as his face when it comes to the wolf man prosthetics. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Which, the best way I can describe that is like a pug mixed with a wookiee. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Like, it's. I don't. I always thought of it being a much bigger snout, but there is no snout. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:27] Speaker A: Really? [00:12:28] Speaker B: No, not at all like, the snout. [00:12:29] Speaker A: I think, honestly, they kind of turned. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Up his nose a little bit. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Honestly, I think spirit Halloween versions of this type of wolf man have a bigger snout than the actual wolf man did. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:41] Speaker A: And to be honest, like, there is kind of a. I can see in that time a eeriness in a, like, it just a scariness to the fact that it's, like, just human enough that it's kind of just very uncomfortable because, like, you know, later interpretations of werewolves. And obviously, you would do this, especially if, you know, you could do this with your computer effects or with makeup getting better, but being more like, actual wolf. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Like bipedal wool. [00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Like american werewolf in London, for example, of just, like, just going full blown, like, oh, we can turn a man into an actual. Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Like, actual canine features. [00:13:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:16] Speaker B: This is really, like, you could say this was the bear man if you wanted to. Like, he doesn't look wolfy. [00:13:22] Speaker A: You give him tusks. He's the boar man. [00:13:24] Speaker B: He's just a hairy dude. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:26] Speaker B: He can be the big hands. [00:13:27] Speaker A: He could be a boar man. He could be a bear man. You could maybe even find a way to turn him into a horse man. It very much. It very much is. [00:13:34] Speaker B: Like, imagine how much more terrifying this movie would be if he was making horse noises. [00:13:38] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:13:39] Speaker B: Wolf noises. [00:13:39] Speaker A: I think Nicolas Cage would be a good horseman. [00:13:42] Speaker B: The horse man. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Or would it be the horseman? [00:13:45] Speaker A: I would. [00:13:46] Speaker B: The Horseman. I think people would just think it's, like, about a horseback rider. [00:13:49] Speaker A: They would think it's probably about the headless Horseman. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. They think it's a sequel to the postman. [00:13:53] Speaker A: Yes. Which is what everyone would think, because everyone's seen the postman, unfortunately. But, yeah, I. To be honest, like, the story itself, it is funny that, like, basically, all three of these films have, like, weirdly complicated romance situations, but this is, like, this is not. This is not the weirdest one, I would say. I don't know. [00:14:20] Speaker B: Well. Hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, they all. You're right. They're all of kind of complicated. They're all kind of. Yeah, because it's taboo. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Because, I mean, we'll get to. And again, we're gonna go back and forth because the Benice del Toro film takes most of what it does, and, honestly, is a downfall to the film, to a degree, just how much it takes from this film. [00:14:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:40] Speaker A: But, like, in the del Toro film, Gwen is his brother's fiance who is now a widow. [00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:48] Speaker A: Basic to a degree. And, like, even though that is a weird connection, at least you can have the excuse that, like, the. The death in the family as well as the trauma surrounding losing a loved one is, like, almost giving them a kindred spirit kind of connection. While, as in, like, in wolf, the relationship is between Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer. And, like, that is basically like, yeah, Michelle Pfeiffer is, like, his boss's daughter, but she's hot. The film basically goes, like, she's hot, and they're kind of into each other, so it's fine. [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Which is like, okay, yeah, I guess so. I guess technically, this is the weirdest one, only because, like, Larry is told at a certain point, well, she doesn't tell him early enough, but she basically goes, like, I don't want to. She basically goes, I don't really want to go on a date. And he's like, sure you do. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Cause it's the forties. [00:15:35] Speaker B: And that's not considered. That's after he red flag behavior. That's after his first impression. Or her first impression of him is basically him telling her, hey, I was spying on you in your bedroom window with my telescope. [00:15:47] Speaker A: That was also funny, too, that they basically had, like, a full conversation, and then he was like, by the way, I saw you. [00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah. By the way, I like watching through your. [00:15:56] Speaker A: Through my window. And it's like, how the. He's like, how the fuck. [00:15:59] Speaker B: You're not. That I have a telescope. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Yeah, my dad is Talbot. [00:16:02] Speaker B: I was peering into your private spaces. [00:16:05] Speaker A: And then he, like, said that, and then took, like. And then, yeah, he took a hot minute to go, like, listen, it was an accident. I wasn't meaning to. He does that, and he goes, but I'm not sorry. And it's like, oh, my lord. [00:16:15] Speaker B: This is goodness, man. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Thank God. Lon Chaney Junior is charisma, is charismatic. Because Jesus Christ, the things he says is like, oh, my God. Can you imagine if someone tried to do this in. In, like, in reality now? Like, it just be like, I saw you through a telescope. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:33] Speaker A: And I'm sorry. It wasn't on purpose, but I'm not sorry. Yeah, it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, that's just. Yeah, it's the forties. Unfortunately, this is a film that very much has. You go, well, that was the era. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:45] Speaker A: And it's not trying to give it an excuse whatsoever that it's just stating the fact. Because, again, the interpretation of the romani culture is not exactly phenomenal either. But it's not like. It's not a way where it feels offensive. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not necessarily derogatory. It's just kind of a caricature. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Because the big thing about both this film and the Benicio del Toro remake is that both the. Both the communities in those films, the romani communities, are basically like, oh, we know exactly what you're turning into. I don't want none of that shit. [00:17:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:17] Speaker A: And the difference is, though, is in this film, it is Belagosi as, like, a romani fortune teller. He turns out to be a werewolf, and he's the one that accidentally gave it to Larry. And then he kills Belugosi in a. And just, like, trying to defend himself. And probably the coolest aspect about this film compared to the other two is the fact that, like, you know, there are versions of werewolves where it's like, well, if you kill the one that gives it to you, you might be able to turn back. Well, in this film, it's like, no, he did that at the beginning. Yeah, he's stuck with this. Like, he doesn't. He gets. He sees. He sees, like, pentagrams and people's hands where it's like, you get to kill them next. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he's. [00:17:58] Speaker A: He's fucked. And it's, like, fascinating to be like, oh, wait, that's not even, like, a line we can use in the story compared to, like, in the other two films. There's kind of an angle like that and wolf to a degree. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:10] Speaker A: And then in Benice, little del Toro's thing, it's like, well, are they gonna do that or are they gonna switch it up a bit? And they switch it up in a very interesting fashion, to a degree. But, yeah, with the wolf man, it is just, if you've seen clips of the film, nine times out of ten, if you've seen three or four clips, that's like 10% of the film. [00:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:31] Speaker A: It's very much like the classic shots you. I mean, if you've seen classic shots of the film where it's like, the Wolf man maybe is attacking somebody, that's probably the finale. [00:18:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Doesn't really do much in kind of. [00:18:46] Speaker B: Classic old monster movie fashion. The monster is not given that much screen time. [00:18:53] Speaker A: They save them for best. [00:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure they were also limited with, you know, what they were able to do at the time. [00:18:59] Speaker A: How could you say that with a face like that? [00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah. The thing I think is funny about this movie and, like, you know, I'm sure it would have, it obviously hit differently in the forties for audiences at that time. But it is funny to me, like, just how little apalm there is or, like, dramatic emphasis put on the scenes where the wolf man shows up. [00:19:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:19:24] Speaker B: He just kind of walks onto the screen and it's like, oh, okay, he's wolf man. [00:19:28] Speaker A: Now, I think the most dramatic scene with a Wolfman is when they use his legs. Getting hairier as a transition. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Yeah. First transformation. [00:19:36] Speaker A: That is the first transformation. [00:19:37] Speaker B: And then after that, every time, it's just like, oh, we're in the woods now. Oh, there's the wolf man. [00:19:41] Speaker A: There's one where you just hear a bunch of stuff breaking in the background and he, like, howls. Yeah, he shows up. But, yeah, it's when he becomes. I can imagine that scene being, like, horrifying to people where it's like they. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Kind of cross dissolve the transformers into. [00:19:54] Speaker A: His hairy legs, and then he starts walking, and it's like he walks out through the window, and then he's just like, in the foggy forest and, yeah, the film is oozing with atmosphere and they're. Yeah, like Andy said, yeah, I like. [00:20:05] Speaker B: The scenes in the woods. They look really like the way they had all the trees kind of backlit with the fog and stuff was really cool. [00:20:12] Speaker A: And they're doing their absolute best with what they've got. But just overall, it is. It is a universal monster movie that came out in 1941. [00:20:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Is a film that, like, you can. I mean, again, it is a classic. This is the type of film where it's like, I do love this movie in terms of what it's trying to do, but if you're asking me, like, really, how much would you rate this, it's like three and a half out of five. Maybe a three. Like, it really is like, we have done more interesting, fun things with werewolves since this movie, but we give it the respect it deserves by saying that this is what starts the popularity of those stories. Like, what ultimately leads to those stories later on. Like, you don't really get an american werewolf in London. Nor do you get, like, decades and decades and decades of people being like, well, the werewolf used to be really cool. Then, like, after, after, like, doing, like, something in the forties. Like, the fact that there is a certain point in time where probably people hated, like, twilight's interpretation of, like, werewolves and wolves. And they were thinking about, like, well, it used to be scary and weird. And then, like, you think of the 41 one where it's like, yeah, probably was scary and weird in, like, 1941. Yeah, but like. [00:21:22] Speaker B: But also a train coming at the camera was scary. Like, 30 years before that. [00:21:28] Speaker A: Again, I still think if we could, if we had access to time travel, I would love to see, like, a crowd in the 1890s or the 19 hundreds watching, like, a Transformers action sequence. [00:21:41] Speaker B: It would. What's the, like, I don't know, the meme. Like, it would kill people. Like, it would kill a pilgrim or something. [00:21:47] Speaker A: It would be like. It'd be like, just an involuntary scanners, like, mind explosion. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Other brains would just turn to. [00:21:54] Speaker A: They'd just be like. They probably call it witchcraft. Yeah, they call it witchcraft. And they said, we were we would be monsters, but it'd still be funny. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Michael Bay would be crucified. [00:22:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And he would film it. He would make sure it's an IMAX and everyone gets to see. [00:22:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:10] Speaker A: What he fought for to get to that. But yeah, that's the wolf man. I don't really have much else to say about the wolf man. [00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, it's. Yeah, if you've seen a Universal monsters movie, you know what you're in for. [00:22:21] Speaker A: And if you look at the time code right now, we've nearly spent half the film's run time talking about it. So it's safe to say we need to get to our next film, because to be completely honest, of these three films, the weirdest and wildest of them is definitely Mike Nicholas's wolf. [00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Which also happens to be the most tame in terms of its approach to the werewolf, the wolf man itself. [00:22:45] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's the funny thing about wolf is because in between Wolf and the Wolf man, there's of course, another wolf werewolf film that we've already talked about but needs to be acknowledged, which is eighties american werewolf in London. A film that basically, I got Rick Baker a legacy Award. I don't think he got a full blown Oscar. I think he had to get a legacy Oscar later for. For the effects in american werewolf in London. But ultimately, what happens after american werewolf in London is basically like, oh, werewolves just have to do this right? Like, you can't really do anything else. You have to, like, really go hard into the effects and build, like, these spooky werewolves that, like, honestly make the Lon Chaney one look like a puppy in comparison. And so you get to nineties, you get to the fact that at this point in the last few years, the same year as wolf, but clearly, production wise, and clearly for years and years, studios were trying to bring back the monsters in some way, shape or form in a way to a modern audience. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Francis Ford Coppola's visually engaging wild film of Bran Stoker's Dracula. You have Kenneth Branagh's Robert De Niro, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, with also help. I've seen clips. [00:24:05] Speaker B: I have not seen it. [00:24:05] Speaker A: Of all three of those films, that would be the only one I haven't seen in full. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:09] Speaker A: But I've heard it's also, I think, the weakest and probably the most boring of the three because I also think Mary Shelley's Frankenstein with. With Kenneth Branagh, I think, also basically kind of does Bride of Frankenstein to a degree as well. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [00:24:25] Speaker A: And so it's like, ultimately, you know, when you get to wolf, you're wondering, is this just going to do the 1941 film again? But in modern nineties era. But that isn't the case. The thing about Wolf that's kind of fascinating is that there's no Larry Talbot, there is no Romani kind of mysticism to them. There is a mystic character. But, like, in the way that is very much like. I don't know, it sounds like. It kind of sounds like something. I mean, it should be this, but, like, it's not like I know for certain what's going on because I just. I just live in a small apartment in New York. [00:25:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:02] Speaker A: And ultimately, the one thing, I think there's two things that kind of stay from the wolf man over to wolf. And that's like a magical pendant that's supposed to help. [00:25:12] Speaker B: Yeah. The herb amulet. [00:25:14] Speaker A: The amulet, as well as, like, a scene where I. The wolf restrains himself to make sure he doesn't hurt anybody. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's. That's true. Well, and also just. It's kind of the idea of, like, the. I mean, like, we just talked about the wolf man being contemporary. This is taking the, you know, what if you became a werewolf in modern everyday life? And how would that interact with. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it also is also focusing more on the physical effects of being a werewolf, where it's like. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of emphasis on, like, how his senses change and how his body responds to the abilities he gains and things. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Because in the. In the original film, it's mainly just like, he gets this gnarly bite on his. He gets, like, a scratch, I think, on his chest. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:05] Speaker A: That is healed by the next day. Which makes them all go, huh, that's odd. They just, like, don't really think about it. While, as in Wolfenhe, the film is basically a midlife crisis film, but instead of a man, like, basically quitting his job, doing something else, or, like, you know, you're leaving his wife and going, like, getting someone younger or getting a sports car, you know, classic midlife crisis shit. It's really about a man who's been very nice all of his life, but he's now old, is being taken advantage of for being nice. Now becoming a werewolf and using that as, like, an initiative to, like, basically more assertive. [00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Aggression too. Yeah. [00:26:44] Speaker A: And also gets the more ability of, like, super hearing, like, very, like, super attuned hearing, as well as super smell. I was very, very surprised we weren't going to get. Thankfully, we didn't get where like he was gonna sniff and be like, oh, someone's, you know, it's their time of the month. Yeah, I really thought I was gonna get that sleazy. Thankfully never did. But it is basically about an aging book editor who is basically gonna get shoved to the side in like a podunk town in England until a bite that he got from a random wolf. I believe in Virginia. I think it's Virginia. It's cuz like people go like wolves in fucking Virginia. [00:27:28] Speaker B: Vermont. [00:27:29] Speaker A: Vermont. That's right. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:30] Speaker A: He's like, yeah. I don't know, it just happened like he gets bitten by a wolf in Vermont, drives back home to, I believe it's New York, I think. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's new. [00:27:39] Speaker A: And then basically starts to notice some changes and realizes, oh no, maybe I'm a wolf. And that's, I mean, again, that's the basic gist. There's more to the story than compared to like you know, the original wolf man. [00:27:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:55] Speaker A: But it's like really just the weirdest film about this is the fact that like this, of all the werewolf films we're talking about today, it feels like the one that is the most embarrassed that it's a werewolf movie. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Or it's at least trying to. It's. It's trying to be something else first and a werewolf movie second. Which is fine if it wasn't for. [00:28:17] Speaker A: The fact that not only is the film titled Wolf right in the poster has a shot of a yellowed eyed Jack Nicholson, it's also the fact that the film hires the special effects master Rick Baker. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Who again we talked about is from american werewolf and London fame. And so when you have that name on this film, you have a set of ideas and expectations. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Expectations, yeah. [00:28:47] Speaker A: That you would think that you're gonna get something on the same level as american werewolf in London. Well, not in werewolf makeup. Now if you're talking about animatronics. Holy shit. There are some animatronics in this film that are like really well done and freaked me the fuck out when I saw them. Yeah, it's like, I can't believe that I'm seeing this right now. Stop it. Quit looking at me. Yeah, but when it comes to the actual werewolf makeup, it's. [00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of just very Harry. Harry. Jack Nicholson. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Incredibly subtle. Incredibly subtle. Subtle, yeah. [00:29:24] Speaker B: Which in some ways I kind of liked. I certainly liked when it was kind of like transitioning into his wolf form. I just. Yeah, it never. You kind of think it's gonna like it's working its way towards a full tilt transformation. And it never really does. [00:29:39] Speaker A: No. He just becomes, I think, genuinely just becomes a wolf, I think, at the very end of the film. Right. [00:29:44] Speaker B: But, like, in terms of inaction, we don't really see him becoming a wolf man. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Yes. He actually acts very ape like. Yeah, it is pretty ape like, weirdly enough. But, um, yeah, it is wild to see the fact that, like, you have Rick Baker on, on staff and you're like, oh, this is gonna be some of the most subtle werewolf makeup I think I've ever seen. Yeah, it's still good makeup. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, this is very subtle. [00:30:11] Speaker A: I will also say, I think this is something I found out while just kind of, like, looking up more people in the film and hope this is true. This is wild. But, like, apparently, you know, the most classic kind of adhesive used for, like, prosthetics like, that is spirit Gumdeh. And apparently Jack Nicholson is very allergic to that. Oh, wow. And so, you know, Rick Baker initially thought it was like, ah, I don't. I don't believe him. He, like, genuinely thought it was like, oh, I thought you're just like, you. You just don't like the feel of it. But he respected it and did know spirit gum. However, there's a final confrontation with another monster in the film that while Jack Nicholson didn't have spirit gum on, he apparently did. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:52] Speaker A: And it didn't turn out well in terms of allergic reactions during a fight scene. If that's true. That's funny. That's. I mean, I'm glad Jack Nicholson's okay after that, but it is funny to think that, like, you would think that's, like, an excuse to do less werewolf makeup, but it genuinely just feels like, in design for the film, it's just supposed to be subtle. And honestly, the most makeup we see on the, on, like, a wolf is an animatronic form. Like, there's a werewolf wolf man head animatronic. It's at the very end of the fight scene where they're, like, gnawing at each other. That's clearly animatronic, but it's, like, wild to be, like, there's more hair on that thing than, like, actual Jack Nicholson. [00:31:35] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:31:36] Speaker A: Which, again, in the most cynical way possible, they could also be the end devil's advocate, being like, oh, maybe in their contracts, or at least Jack Nicholson specifically. Maybe you're not supposed to hide his face because he's a star. Maybe that's the case. But at the same time, it also just kind of feels like it is a film, like Andy said, that is using the idea of becoming a werewolf in more in a modern, like, in a normal sense where it's like, you know, Jack Nicholson's character is not a noble. He's literally a book editor who's been working at the same publishing house for decades. Yeah, he's a normal guy with a pretty normal apartment in New York with a pretty normal wife and is not an asshole. Yeah, he's a normal guy that just so happened to accidentally hit a wolf in Vermont. That just so happened that turn him into a fucking wolf and then basically is just like, there's an, there's an aspect when he goes and talks to the expert, quote unquote, about it where they basically said, like, if you're a good person, you'll be a good wolf. And lo and beholden, he's a good wolf. Weirdly, like, there are some confrontations, but, like, usually he has to be instigated or you get a surprise David Schwimmer cameo as a cop. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:52] Speaker A: And you get like, I mean, again, the best stuff with a wolf, in my opinion, both in an unironic and ironic sense, is when he's leaping. Yeah. There's a scene where he is going up, like a set of stairs, like, revolt. Like just rotating stairs. And it just is like he's jumping every three steps and he's like, leaping over stairs. And it's like, this is, this is funny as fuck. All the wire work stuff is good, but it is funny to be like, Jack Nicholson's on a wire right now, just like flying towards somebody. It is, it is a fun time. I was quite confused, but also was having a good time with it. Like, confused by the fact that, like, we were watching a werewolf movie that was just like, oh, yeah, I guess we got to do werewolf stuff. It's like, oh, you forgot. Just do a little bit. Little pizzazz, little dash of it is all I need. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, one of the kind of fun, I don't know, not necessarily changes, but, like, fun kind of additions that this movie brings. You alluded to earlier with the kind of final altercation is that we actually get two wolf men in this. So, and actually one of the most fun parts of the movie is, I think, James Spader. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Who plays the, the kind of rival character to Jack Nicholson. They're like, at the beginning of the movie, they're like kind of close professional friends or like, they act like they really care about each other. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Spader's mentor basically helped him through the ranks and now Spader at that. [00:34:29] Speaker B: Spader's then basically given the opportunity to. [00:34:32] Speaker A: Replace Nicholson, which he takes. [00:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Then the majority of the film is basically Nicholson trying to fuck him over for doing that. Because not only did Spader take over his job, Spader also fucked his wife. [00:34:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Which is funny, the fact that, like, when his wife confronts Nicholson after that is found out, she's so mad at him for being mad. And it's like, you fucked my protege and you. And it's like, there's a great line where she's like, eyes, it didn't matter to me. And she's like, he's like, you think that makes that any better? Yeah, makes it worse. If you said that you did that for no reason. And it's like, the fact that we're talking about that when it comes to a fucking werewolf movie, it's just like, there's good writing in the movie. There's some good shots. There's some great little comedic moments, especially what? [00:35:18] Speaker B: Like, during a lot of great dialogue, I think between, especially between Spader and. [00:35:23] Speaker A: Nicholson, there's, like, a hard zoom in a police station to, like, werewolf. Spader's face that is just fucking. I had to replay that three times. [00:35:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:31] Speaker A: And then there's a shot later where Spader as a werewolf is sitting in a car, and he turns his head so rigidly. It's fucking hilarious. Like, yeah, when he gets that goofy, like, it's. Spader's having a fun time. That's when Nicholson's kind of out of the film for a hot minute because he's trying to keep the wolf at bay. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:50] Speaker A: And it's more of like a Michelle Pfeiffer Nick, like, Spader chase that ultimately turns into a werewolf fight. But, yeah, before that, I mean, again, that's like, the latter half, I think. Like, the third act on, I think is the most fascinating stuff in the film because when it becomes a. Did Nicholson do all these bad things even though he's not a bad person? Like, mystery as that was, like, I remember pausing the film and looking to our friend Adam was, like, watching it with me, and I was like, I'm gonna tell you right now. I think I know what's gonna fucking happen. And I can't wait to see. And, like, immediately after, it was exactly that. It's like, okay, now this film is getting real good and real fun. And it does. And again, it's a film that lingers quite a bit. It's a, it's a two hour film. So again, we were, we were blessed by having a 69 minutes first wolf man film and then going back to, oh, yeah, most films are like 2 hours. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:45] Speaker A: And it's not bad again, but there is some slow periods here and there, and there is a lot of. Not werewolf. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's kind of like how it's gonna come down to how much you engage in the kind of book publishing world drama of it and the social drama, romance drama. I enjoyed all of it. [00:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:08] Speaker B: But I wasn't like, yeah, I wasn't super over the moon about it, but I think Spader is kind of the secret sauce. And, I mean, Nicholson is, I think, great in, in the role. I mean, he's doing kind of typical Nicholson stuff, but he and Spader both, I think, bring a lot to it. There's just, I don't know. In almost every Nicholson movie, there's just so many lines where it's like, nobody would have said that line like that, you know? And Spader and Nicholson are full of those. Yeah. And so they're fun to watch, even when it's not, like, the most compelling wolf story. [00:37:45] Speaker A: It's funny, too, because this is a film where it's like, you could basically, you could play Nicholson more sleazy and almost feel more like a Nicholson type. You could also do spader more like an asshole because he's, at that time, was more known for, like, kind of asshole. [00:37:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker A: Smart, like, smart aleck types. And honestly, both of them are kind of pulled back until, like, that gets to the like, until we get to more wolf action. [00:38:09] Speaker B: It's a really pretty, like, the social drama of it is pretty, like, restrained and nuanced in an interesting way. Especially Spader's character is like, he's the type of person who's like, yeah, he will stab you in the back. But he also, he either feels really bad about it, although not bad enough to not do it, or he's, like, really good at lying to himself and telling himself that he feels bad. And that's just, you know, it's a wrinkle to his character that, like, I think in most other, especially a wolf man movie, you wouldn't really have an antagonist character who's portrayed that way. They would just be a straight out and out, like piece of shit, which. [00:38:56] Speaker A: He is ultimately, but, and they also really hide. They don't even put much emphasis on the fact that when Nicholson bites him, that should imply that Spader becomes a werewolf. The film barely. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Circle back around. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah. They literally don't even really full, full blown. Bring it up until the police station scene. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Like, honestly, when I. [00:39:20] Speaker B: When I was, like, eyes change. [00:39:22] Speaker A: Yeah. When I caught it. Like, when they're telling. When a younger Richard Jenkins is telling, is telling Nicholson that his wife has been murdered, I was like, oh, that's got to be spader. Spaders gonna be a bad Wolfenk, right? Still takes a good ten minutes before it's like he has the fangs. He has the look. Yeah, it is like going full ham on. Like, the shithead kind of almost suggests. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Like, oh, did he even need the wolf in him to do that? Like, yeah, maybe he's just a fucking evil dirt. [00:39:51] Speaker A: He's a piece of shit, which is. Yeah, which is great, too. Where it's like, when it comes to Nicholson as a wolf, it's almost constantly implying the fact that, like, is more him trying to prove his own masculinity. It's almost weirdly trying to show that, like, the film is almost trying to say that he's emasculated. Not even by. It's almost. Not even. It's saying he's emasculated by just being a nice guy. [00:40:15] Speaker B: No, because the movie doesn't really lean that hard into, like, him being this, you know. Yeah. He's not, like, a super. What's the word? I like, reserve nice guy or anything. [00:40:28] Speaker A: No, no. But, like, it's weird how, like, when people talk about him in the movie, they're like, ah, you're just, you were just too gentle with him. You were just too this, like, when it comes to, like, the spader basically telling Nicholson, yeah, I knew that you were gonna get fired, and I'm taking your job, I think, like, hours ago. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Like, Nicholson. Like, was like, well, yeah, you know what I'm like. He basically does not give him his blessing. And then his wife later goes, why'd you give him your blessing? [00:40:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:53] Speaker A: Like, the movie, like, almost treats it like Nicholson as being a very sweet, nice guy to everybody. And he's being nice, but, like, not to the point where it's like they're being like, you're getting stepped on. [00:41:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:05] Speaker A: You're too much of a rug. Jack Nicholson. It's like Jack Nicholson. [00:41:09] Speaker B: Yeah. He's not like, yeah, it's kind of interesting the way. Yeah, I'm not sure Nicholson's performance always reflects the character the way that, like, all the other characters seem to think of him. [00:41:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Which is interesting, and maybe that's intentional, but it just kind of, it creates this kind of interesting tonal. [00:41:27] Speaker A: And even though Spader it's refreshing to see him be full on kind of asshole when he becomes a werewolf. It is also just, like, out of nowhere because, like you said, like, he's cartoony. Yeah. He weirdly just, like, is so pathetic and cowardly when anytime there's a confrontation to the point of, like, maybe if he becomes a wolf, it'll be worse. But, like, they don't, there's not even, like, watching him, like, deal with a bite. It's literally just like, no, I just, I got bit now. I feel great. Yeah, that's fine. I guess it's, it's more just, like, funny how, you know, as soon as he gets bit early on in the film, like, I was like, oh, shit, are we gonna get some spader action? That's fucking wild. Don't even talk about it for 30 minutes. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, by the way, I'm a fucking werewolf. [00:42:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:18] Speaker A: And it's like, it's like, yeah, no shit. You have, like, weird yellow eyes. Like, why you. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Your eyes are looking two different directions because your contacts are out of alignment. [00:42:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Because a big part of the latter half of the film is Nicholson. Just, like, doing a good job of, like, really showing. Just, like, how sad he is about his wife's murder, but also thinking that he could have done it. [00:42:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:37] Speaker A: Even though he's already been told that, you know, if you're a good person, you are a good wolf. He's not fully believing that. And so, like, you know, there's a whole, like, oh, did, did he do that? And, you know, it's like, once you realize Spader is probably a werewolf, it's like, I know Spader has more reason to do that than, like, anybody else. And then even then, it's like, even when you don't know he's a werewolf yet, he has a scene with Christopher Plummer, who owns the publishing house where he goes, say, hypothetically speaking, if Jack Nicholson were to die, would I have that job back? And, like, Christopher Holmes being like, well, you're being a little too excited about the idea of, like, possibly, like, losing more. It's like, no, I just, no, not at all. It's like, yeah, okay. This motherfucker has something to do with it, if anything. And then it's like, yeah, he's a wolf. And the final confrontation between the two of them is fucking hilarious, but also really fun. And there's a weird thing where, like, he doesn't, like, he doesn't sexually assault Michelle Pfeiffer, but he's getting, it's like. [00:43:41] Speaker B: He tries to gets. [00:43:42] Speaker A: Wait. Yeah, it just like, it's weirdly like every time she runs away, he pulls her in. But does it? [00:43:48] Speaker B: I mean, I would probably call it sexual assault, not rape. [00:43:53] Speaker A: I mean, it is, but I think. [00:43:54] Speaker B: He even like hikes her skirt up and stuff. If that's the thracer into his pelvis. [00:43:59] Speaker A: I. Again, it's one of those weird. Again, the movie is shot in a way at times where it's like, is this what it was intended to originally be? [00:44:07] Speaker B: Or like I think it's supposed to be driving home the fact of how. [00:44:11] Speaker A: Much Stewart's shit, which again, at that. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Point is like not that really, really need the help. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really going way too far in that regard. But also, I mean, speaking of, like, I don't know if this is how it was supposed to originally be. Let's talk about that fucking ending. That ending. The ending of Wolf is. [00:44:27] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:44:28] Speaker A: I think it's probably the worst of the three. These films is by far the funniest fucking thing because you know exactly what it's trying to do. But it does it so slowly and so methodically that when it does finally end, it's like, yeah, of course. But like, why did you just make us wait on this shot for so long? [00:44:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Just like a freeze frame kind of situation at a time. And it is, it is such a wild shot to end on. I was laughing so hard at a film that I was really enjoying genuinely, the eyes. The eyes like constantly going back to Pfeiffer, constantly going back. The wolf. The shot of like the. [00:45:04] Speaker B: It has that really drawn out. [00:45:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That has the energy of like maybe of all things, this might have not been what it wanted to be originally. [00:45:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:12] Speaker A: It's like I was expecting like her to show up in like a faraway place with like him and maybe even like even go as far as like her following him into the forest and it's just the fucking wolf. Yeah, and maybe that was going to be the case, but like the animatronic wolf was kind of fucked up because like they used the animatronic wolf in those shots, but only the close up of the eyes. [00:45:33] Speaker B: Yeah, very, very tight shot of the. [00:45:35] Speaker A: But they do not use really full body of the wolf ever. No, except for the beginning, which is just haunting. The fucking full body of the wolf is like, ah, stop it. Yeah, get that out of here. [00:45:45] Speaker B: Emma, like physically recoiled. [00:45:49] Speaker A: It's too human in the face. Need to get rid of it. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Human eyes. Yeah, but, yeah, well, speaking of, I guess one. One more thing that's kind of funny about this is you were talking about how, you know, bringing Rick Baker on and then not really using him. Also, Ennio Morricone scores this movie. [00:46:10] Speaker A: Oh, my God, I completely forgot. That's just. [00:46:13] Speaker B: There is. I will say there is one pretty cool motif in the score that is used over and over again. It's kind of this, like, running string rhythm thing, but that's kind of the only thing in the entire movie. And everything else is very bog standard. [00:46:28] Speaker A: I still stand by the fact that if you can make a great Morricone score, Morricone won his oscar before his timely is before his passing by Quentin Tarantino using b sides of the thing soundtrack for fucking hateful. That's how fucking good that composer was. And the fact that the wool wolf has him and it just. I completely forgot he did. [00:46:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I was. I was super jazzed when I saw that in the opening credits. Cuz, like, the opening kind of overture is kind of cool, and when he encounters the wolf for the first time is the first time you get to hear that motif. And it's like, oh, this is weird and kind of creepy cool. And that's the only thing you hear. The rest of the movie is just that same sound over and over again. [00:47:15] Speaker A: You have a star studded cast. Oh, it's Nickelodeon Pfeiffer, David Hyde Pierce in, like, that Fraser era Spader, Christopher Plumber, Richard Jenkins not being used at all. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Yeah, he shows up right at the. [00:47:30] Speaker A: End for no reason, but, like, it's a, you know, fun to see him get a paycheck that early on. Yeah, you have Mike Nichols, you know, a man of many talents, a man of many great films under his belt. [00:47:42] Speaker B: The man of one son. [00:47:44] Speaker A: The man of one son, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you. Totally is his son. [00:47:49] Speaker B: He probably has actual. [00:47:51] Speaker A: He does. He has, like, he has a son and a daughter. I'm pretty sure that it's not Jeff Nicholson. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Jeff and Jessica. [00:47:56] Speaker A: No, Jeff is not his son. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna live. I'm gonna live with that for so fucking long. But you have a. You have it. You basically have a star studded, like, all star cast, composer, director, visual effects. Yeah, supervisor. Like, you have all this money attached to it as well. And what you get is a pretty fine film. Yeah, arguably. I mean, we'd have to watch Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, and we have enough to watch already, so, like, that will be pushed to the side unless we get the itch during Halloween and we think we want to watch probably separately more than anything, if we want to give that a watch and talk about it. But, like, arguably, like, this is probably going to be the weirdest in the outlier of the three films. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the most kind of off. [00:48:49] Speaker A: Course, and it's definitely not going to be. I don't think I'll ever meet anyone in my life that says this is their favorite Mike Nichols film. Which if that's the case, I'd love to hear their argument for that. But I mean, ultimately, wolf is fine. [00:49:02] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a solid time. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. I do not regret watching it. I don't know what. I'll watch it again. I don't have the urge. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:49:10] Speaker A: Unless I get bitten by a wolf in Vermont. [00:49:13] Speaker B: I'm also just not. I don't know, outside of like, doing this for the podcast, I've never been one to be like, ooh, a movie about werewolves. Gotta dig into that. Like, all of those. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Here's the thing. I. I love the fuck out of werewolves, but I'm only like that because, like, if you, after I say that, people would go, oh, so you've watched Underworld, right? [00:49:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:33] Speaker A: And I'm like, wow, technically I've seen one. [00:49:36] Speaker B: I like the concept of the werewolves. [00:49:39] Speaker A: Actually, I've seen two underworld films. That's how much I've seen. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Well, I think just two. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Well, Emma likes. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Emma loves. Well, we rewatched them recently and she was like, yeah. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Got embarrassed by it. It happens. It happens. Hey, if it's a while, sometimes the cool things from the two thousands don't age well. [00:49:57] Speaker B: You know, a lot of times it happens. [00:50:00] Speaker A: There's such things as fads. [00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:02] Speaker A: But yeah, I love werewolves. I think they're a fun, fun monster to play with, especially if you're willing to play with it, like, really well. And, you know, there are other interpretations of it. And I know Twilight's one that always gets brought up because, you know, vampires and werewolves are part of that. But like, I. It is fascinating to think that we're at a point where vampires don't think they've ever really had like, an ebb and flow of, like, this is where vampires are never used again. Hilariously enough. [00:50:30] Speaker B: They're kind of always around. [00:50:30] Speaker A: Dracula is the different occasion where it's like, Dracula is not used a lot. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of Dracula's almost in this permanent perpetual state of like, oh, well, we don't want to overuse that or, like, tread on it. [00:50:45] Speaker A: I mean, we actually just had a movie. We had a movie come out this year that is a vampire film, secret vampire film that basically had Dracula in it and never says his name because the studio was worried it was going to put people off at Dracula. [00:51:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:00] Speaker A: And so, yeah, I knew I could see you were trying to think of what it is, but as soon as I said it, but, like, that's how weird it is when it comes to, like, monsters, because it's like, vampires are still going pretty fucking strong. There's even a tv show based off of the Ann Rice classic interview with the vampire. [00:51:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:17] Speaker A: That is on AMC that's doing incredibly well, at least for the channel. And, you know, with werewolves, it is, like, unfortunately, a lot of the time they're b tier monsters and compared to vampires in some movies. [00:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Which is a bummer because to be honest, it'd be kind of rad to be werewolves. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker A: Feel like it'd be kind of cool. The buff part. [00:51:36] Speaker B: The buff, buff part. [00:51:37] Speaker A: But also just the fact that, like, the heightened senses. I mean, wolf does show how kind of fun that would be. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:43] Speaker A: Just to be like, you just. You just, like, heal faster. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:51:47] Speaker A: You are just like, you hear everything. You can sniff and you can run faster. [00:51:51] Speaker B: Maybe on all jump up the stairs. [00:51:53] Speaker A: If I could jump like Jack Nicholson does in wolf, why would I do anything else? [00:51:57] Speaker B: Right? I would only form of train. [00:51:59] Speaker A: I would never use escalators or elevators ever again. It just jump. Unless stairs are needed. I would probably. Then I would just jump, you know, each flight just over. You know, werewolves are. And you'll see with, like, our next film, it just, like, at a certain point, werewolves, when we talk about them, are usually put in monster ensembles. Not necessarily films surrounding werewolves proper. [00:52:27] Speaker B: There are, like, short stories including werewolves more than about werewolves. [00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Because ultimately, like. [00:52:34] Speaker B: Yeah, Harry Potter and stuff like that. [00:52:37] Speaker A: Because when people talk about, like, the universal monsters getting resurgences over the years, I mean, even the most recent for, like, let's say with, like, universal is, like, you know, Dracula untold from, like, a decade ago. [00:52:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:49] Speaker A: That was such a flop that they're, like, worried about even talking as if Dracula is going to, like, kill a film. [00:52:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:52:56] Speaker A: Like, talking about the name is not. I mean, it's like. It's all about interpretation, but it's like. It shows just like. [00:53:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:02] Speaker A: And when it comes, like, even with the dark universe shit, like, I don't even think werewolves are even thought, like, the wolf Manda. [00:53:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:10] Speaker A: Like, there might have been a plan. But honestly, it doesn't matter because that thing doesn't exist anymore. But in, like, the two thousands we. I think mainly what I think of, and I think most people would think of as well, probably as well, is like, there's like, twilights, there is the underworlds, and then there's, like, the ones that really flop horribly, which is like the Van Helsing. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:30] Speaker A: Of it all, where, like, Van Helsing is basically like, oh, yeah, we can throw a werewolf in there. As if it's not like a part of, like, the clay. Like, we can do Frankenstein and it's. I. To be fair, I think another thing also is the fact that since there is no werewolf, that is basically the iconic, like, dracula is the iconic vampire. Frankenstein is the iconic reanimated monster. The creature from the Black Lagoon is the iconic fish man. [00:53:56] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, the closest mummy, the wolf man is the iconic werewolf. But there's not like a story there that people remember. [00:54:05] Speaker A: Yeah. No one's gonna be like, oh, fuck. [00:54:06] Speaker B: Oh, Larry Talbot. [00:54:08] Speaker A: Holy shit. [00:54:08] Speaker B: They brought back Larry Talbot. [00:54:09] Speaker A: They're putting fucking Talbot in. Which is why we come to our last film in our trailer, which is two thousand and ten s the Wolfman, which is basically, again, taking the classic 1941 film and trying to bring it into modern day to an extent, because the film actually hilariously takes place in a time period before the original film. It takes place in the 1890s. It's supposed to be in the same. I think it's black thorn or black thor. [00:54:37] Speaker B: Black Moore. [00:54:37] Speaker A: Black Moore maybe is where. Because I think the original film is in that area too. And we follow Lawrence Talbott, who is an actor in this interpretation, played by Benicio del Toro, forcing himself not to have an accent. [00:54:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Trying to do an american who was born in England. [00:54:54] Speaker A: Yes. And basically similar premise where his. His father, his brother has passed away. He's coming back to his father's estate to pay his respects. While he's there, he meets his brother's fiance, played by Emily Blunt, a very early on in her career, before it pops off. [00:55:13] Speaker B: Devil wears Prada era. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Yeah, before Jungle Cruise, her biggest film. [00:55:16] Speaker B: Right before she became a household name in jungle. [00:55:20] Speaker A: Jungle cruise. I think that's also the era where I say it's like, oh, that's like leatherhead's John Krasinski era. [00:55:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:26] Speaker A: Where it's like they're both are just in that space of, like, they have yet to pop off from, like, their initial popularity thing. And then, of course, Anthony Hopkins playing Talbot Sr. He's playing the Lord. And he, hilariously, we didn't really bring it up much, but in the original film, what's so funny about the father is that he's aged so well that he looks like he's only five years older than Lon Chaney Junior, which wasn't the case. It was closer to, like, twelve, maybe 15 years older. Like, I think he was in his fifties while, like, I cheney was in his late thirties. And in this, Anthony Hopkins clearly is much older than Benicio del Toro, but also dresses as if he's playing either Van Helsing or Victor Frankenstein. [00:56:10] Speaker B: Yeah, he is. Or, like, Alan Quartermain. [00:56:13] Speaker A: He is. Yeah. He is so, like, just goofy looking and very. Gosh, I'm trying to think of the right word to describe it. [00:56:22] Speaker B: He's just. [00:56:22] Speaker A: He's just very aloof centric. Yes. Very eccentric. He is very much has the energy of, like, I don't have every screw tight in my brain. Which, funny enough, comes back in the latter half of the film in terms of, like, his involvement with the entire kind of mystery. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:41] Speaker A: Because unlike the original film, in this interpretation, Larry's brother has been killed by the werewolf. And so, of course, Larry won't leave until he kills the werewolf. And so he tries to find the werewolf. He goes to the Romanis and they say, you just need to get the fuck out of here. You're only just gonna make things worse. [00:57:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:03] Speaker A: Shit goes down, he gets bitten. Insert the Wolfman. The biggest. I would say the biggest difference between this and the original film, excluding, like, you know, saying, like, oh, there's CGI in this or the suits better. Like, there's things like, clearly this is nearly like a yemenite, like a 70 year gap. [00:57:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:22] Speaker A: Between the two. So, like, of course those things are gonna be better. The biggest thing, though, is that the original wolf man is family friendly to an extent. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder if it was considered to be at the time, like, maybe. Yes, by generally. By general standard. [00:57:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:42] Speaker B: There's, like, very little violence. Very. [00:57:47] Speaker A: The Wolfman is rated r, hard r. Joe Johnston, who is again known mainly from Jumanji and I believe, honey, I shrunk the kids he helped as well, who's mainly known from his family friendly affairs as well as Captain America, makes. [00:58:05] Speaker B: A gory, although not at the time that he made this. [00:58:07] Speaker A: No, because Captain America is a year after this film, which is, God bless him, that he had that, because this film did not do well when it first came out. But Joe Johnson makes a graphic gory, almost Sam Raimi esque. In turn, in certain scenes. Interpretation in terms of interpretation of, like, the werewolf and, like, how he just runs amok. [00:58:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:31] Speaker A: How he causes terror, we even get, I would say, is probably my favorite sequence in the film, which is the werewolf, like, in London. Hilariously, we get a werewolf in London in the late 18 hundreds. [00:58:43] Speaker B: Technically an american werewolf. [00:58:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And you get some, you get some wild, graphic, kind of gory hits. And they're all, I will say. And this is something that I understand why people didn't really like it at the time because it is a tonal issue with the film. [00:59:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:00] Speaker A: But, um, it is very over the top. It is, it is, yeah, that's what we say. Very Sam Raimi esque. Because it's like, they're just like, there are shots, like, there are a decent amount of times where this werewolf, where werewolves will just, like, hit people's heads off their shoulders. [00:59:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:20] Speaker A: Just knock them clean like a basketball that's stuck. And it's like, fascinating just how they like. It's like a perfect, clean hit. [00:59:27] Speaker B: It's clear that the film, during these sequences, the film is like, reveling in the violence. Oh, yeah. Which is kind of stands in contrast to the rest of the film, which is very, like, dour and self serious. [00:59:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And if it was more like that all the way through, I think you'd be much more appreciated. Now, I still. [00:59:49] Speaker B: I like those sequences, but it is. [00:59:52] Speaker A: Yeah, but the fact is, is that when those sequences are not on screen. [00:59:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:57] Speaker A: The majority of the film is very dour, very serious to a degree. Like once, once the big reveals of, like, Anthony Hopkins play it part in the whole story, as well as what he tries to do to his son while he's trying to search for, like, how to deal with the werewolf situation, that that stuff gets sillier in a way that feels more in line with the goofiness of the violence. But before that, it's very fucking serious and also throws so much shit at you that it's kind of wild that when it gets to a point where it's like, let me explain these things to you. It's like, I'm going to be honest as someone who appreciates that you're explaining these things to me because a lot of films will just not do that with some of the shit they throw at you. You didn't need this. Like, the whole thing about, like, you get a whole reasoning as to why. Spoiler alert, Anthony Hopkins becomes a werewolf. Because the werewolf that is the inciting incident in this film is actually Anthony Hopkins. [01:00:53] Speaker B: Yep. [01:00:53] Speaker A: Because not only did Anthony Hopkins accidentally kill Larry's brother, he also was the one that killed Larry's mother when he was younger. And it just so happened to pop up now because he's like, ah, well, I don't know how to tell you that I was a wolf and I accidentally killed her. [01:01:08] Speaker B: Right. [01:01:09] Speaker A: But, like, he has this whole story about how he was traveling overseas, I believe, in India, and found a cave with a little wolf boy in it, got bitten by the wolf boy. And while he thought it was like, oh, gosh, I got bitten by some rabid kid. That's wild. All the people around him were like, oh, yeah, no, you're a werewolf, dude. Like, and that is so much more just lore that any other of the werewolf films we've talked about tonight has really given it. Like, there is some war and that lore and wolf, in terms of, like, passing it down, sure, traditions, but it never feels like we, we don't physically get to see in those other films like the first wolf or like what we think might be the first werewolf. While as this film almost kind of implies, this could be one of the first werewolves, this could just be the only werewolf. Like, it could just be before Hopkins takes that kind of lycanthropy from it and it's like, like, cool. Like, I appreciate the attempt at that and I appreciate trying to take the original film and how it did take itself seriously and try to bring it back in a modern sense and take those moments seriously. But when you have goofy fun but goofy action gore, it does take away from like, any time it stops being that way. And it goes back to like melancholic. [01:02:34] Speaker B: When it creates this drag on the pace too, because you're just kind of like, well, I was having a lot of fun when the wolf man was on screen. [01:02:41] Speaker A: Guess what? Put it on your bingo cards. This is another two hour film. And guess what? It doesn't, it's not unbearable, but it is very noticeably slow. It is a very slow movie. That is, again, I still had a good time. I personally probably like this a smidge. A very small amount more than wolf. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:03:03] Speaker A: Just like by a little. I think I more just kind of because I love, I mean, I loved the action scenes. [01:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. They're a lot of fun because, again. [01:03:11] Speaker A: Like, not only because you can tell from the set design to the werewolf design, because the werewolf is mainly practical, but also the transformation sequence, certain shots throughout the film that there is money being put into this. And honestly, we haven't really seen a monster film like this, this traditional with this much money since for a reason. Yeah. But it is kind of fun to see them try to put so much money into just a classic universal monster remake. [01:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Giving the classic, like, this legacy monster the, like, big studio treatment. [01:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And to have it be like. And to have it be like, you know what? The original doesn't have a fight with another werewolf. Let's do that. Or at least werewolf like wolf on wolf action. [01:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:00] Speaker A: You know what? They also don't have much rampage with the werewolf. Let's get some rampage in there. [01:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:05] Speaker A: And like, all. Again, all the action sequences, I think are phenomenal and are a lot of fun. It just sucks that everything in between, similar to the original film, very surface level characters, very kind of mundane writing that doesn't really do much. And even when it does the lore stuff, it doesn't really hold your attention. [01:04:24] Speaker B: I think this one easily has, like, the least interesting drama of all three. [01:04:29] Speaker A: Of these movies, I would say, and. [01:04:30] Speaker B: The least interesting characters because it is. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Mainly like a film that is trying to make convince you that Anthony Hopkins is Benico del Toro's dad. [01:04:38] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:38] Speaker A: As well as the fact that is a film where Benicio del Toro is constantly fighting with his own actor accent. [01:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And he also. His character has nothing really to do. He's just. Things happen to him and to know. [01:04:49] Speaker A: Just how big Emily Blunt is now in, like, films, it's funny to watch the film and feel like how she is such a wet blanket, even more so than, like, the character in the original film who has, you know, very little to do but still has charisma and still has, you know, conflict and has, you know, a stake to behold the fact that, like, she is slowly falling in love with Larry. In the original, they don't even kiss, but there still feels, like, more of an emotional pull than in this film where they do kiss. Yeah, it's like, okay, that's fine. Like, it's. Again, there is an attempt here that I appreciate, but overall, in terms of execution, I do think this movie probably would have been more interesting if, as much as I think Joe Johnson's good in this movie, if someone else, like, I want a Del Toro wolf man. [01:05:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Someone with just a little bit more of an overt, like, style and also, like, a, like, proven flair for these kinds of movies. Darker, more violent things. I mean, Joe Johnston, you know, really, the Rocketeer guy is going to be doing, like a rated r. And I. [01:05:58] Speaker A: Think after this fucking film, he does. He does Captain America. And then there's like two other, but like, the other two films are just. [01:06:04] Speaker B: His kind of usual. [01:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah, this is an outlier. [01:06:06] Speaker B: He did the Nutcracker in the forest realms last film. [01:06:10] Speaker A: We've technically touched on a Johnston film before. And that's like, yeah, that's what he's usually known for. So it's cool that he goes out of his wheelhouse, but like, God, it's one of those things where like, there are, there are other directors that I would love to see do this story. [01:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:25] Speaker A: That I feel like have more of a unique voice. That would be kind of fun. I mean, again, the easiest one. I even said it before you brought that up, but, like, Guillermo del Toro. [01:06:36] Speaker B: Sure. [01:06:37] Speaker A: Like, come on, two del Toro's. One moon. There's the tagline. It really is just like, I mean, Del Toro is currently doing a Frankenstein film with Oscar Isaac, which is. I will buy all the tickets. I. That's cuz like, that is just like his wheelhouse. That, but that's also a man that has literally been trying to fight to make a regular monster movie for, like, he literally made basically a creature from the Black Lagoon film but had to basically make it a romance. And I love that movie. But still, it's funny to think about how, like, how many times he's had to, like, basically fight. [01:07:12] Speaker B: Like, how do I cram creature effects into my movies? [01:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah, how could I do the things that scared me as a kid? But, like, clearly I can't do just straightforward monster shit. The studios won't fund it unless it's like superhero based or a romance or, you know, it's an independent film that is very, you know, Spanish inspired. And it's, of course, you know, based off of that timeline was pants labyrinth. [01:07:36] Speaker B: Did he. He did Crimson Peak. Right? [01:07:38] Speaker A: He did Crimson Peak. He did Crimson. [01:07:40] Speaker B: Like, trying to imagine, like, I mean, Crimson Peak was what, like 2014? [01:07:44] Speaker A: It's around the same time as this. [01:07:46] Speaker B: It's like, yeah, you know, he could have easily done a, done a bang up job with the Wolfman. [01:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:53] Speaker B: Especially a period film and everything. [01:07:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Like, it's. I mean, with the Wolf man, it is. It is clear that there's people putting a lot into it. Also with Benicio del Toro being a producer on the film, clearly there is a point. [01:08:06] Speaker B: I mean, he's like a super fan. [01:08:08] Speaker A: Of the original film and to be honest, his fucking. I love, I love his look as the wolf man. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Well, they, once again, they brought Rick Baker back and he actually gets to do wherewith actually gets to do shit. And, yeah, I honestly like the kind of updated Wolfman design a lot because it does feel. It manages to feel pretty faithful to the original look. You've got the bear skin face with the sort of mane surrounding the face. But he is a little bit, just that. A little bit more dog like. [01:08:42] Speaker A: Yes, he's also. [01:08:43] Speaker B: And of course his feature, like his physiology of his body are way more we think of a wolf. [01:08:48] Speaker A: He's more expressive and his eyes and his mouth and his nose and also he's bulked up so much. [01:08:55] Speaker B: Back muscles are huge. [01:08:56] Speaker A: We never really talked about it too, but like, yeah, it is just like a dude in a mask in the. [01:09:01] Speaker B: Original to not even a mask. It's a dude with hair on his face pretty much. [01:09:06] Speaker A: And while this one is like he is built like a monster brick house. Like again, I think that the scene where they're like, we're gonna prove that he's not a werewolf, but he's like, you fucking idiots, I'm gonna kill you all and I can't do anything about it. Yeah, that scene is fun. Honestly. [01:09:20] Speaker B: I seen this is fun. I will say it's probably like of the wolf scenes, the one that like. [01:09:27] Speaker A: Could have gone harder. Yeah, it could have gone harder. [01:09:30] Speaker B: Live up to the build up to that because the build up to that is really great. He's like trapped in the thing and you see the moon coming through the window and of course it's a room full of people and they're all stuck in there. The doors are jammed. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Yeah. It's funny how that's the most reserved he is in Wolfenhe form in terms of like. Yeah, really. [01:09:47] Speaker B: He really wants to kill restrained act like violent scene. [01:09:50] Speaker A: He really wants to kill the guards and he really wants to kill the main doctor that's been fucking like torturing him the whole time. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:57] Speaker A: Everyone else like. Yeah. Cuz there are people. Cause I'm thinking like always gonna slash through. [01:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I thought he was gonna rip people in half. [01:10:02] Speaker A: He grabs him by the shoulder and throws them. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Yeah. And there are multiple. There are multiple kills in that scene that are like cheeky off screen kills where it's like somebody through the window in the door gets pulled out of frame or whatever. You know, it's like, damn. The rest of this movie has like decapitations and guttings and we haven't talked. [01:10:20] Speaker A: About, I think disposal of our favorite kill in the film, which is a man, an accident where a man gets run over by a carriage and his back just breaks. [01:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like an accident where he. [01:10:32] Speaker A: Just runs away from the wolf man, falls in front of a carriage and. [01:10:35] Speaker B: Just gets his back broken. I find it fascinating in these movies. You know, when a movie gets like an r rating or like a kind of a free. Basically a free pass to just have excessive violence. It's always funny when that manifests in the form of just like, incidental violence against passerbys. Like, the wolf man has very little to do with that death other than like, he scares somebody and then a cart runs over a random civilian. [01:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:03] Speaker B: And it's like, you know, the rest of the movie, every kill is caused by the wall. [01:11:09] Speaker A: Pretty incidental. [01:11:09] Speaker B: Pretty much, yeah. And that one is just like, oh, a guy is just getting run over. And I always just. It makes me think of just like, this is obviously extrapolating, but it just makes me, like. It feels very cynical in a way, just about humanity and. Oh, yeah, the human life I love. [01:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah, that's some shit. That's some shame. Black shit. I want more people to. [01:11:32] Speaker B: Random people dying in the background that have nothing to do with what's going on. [01:11:35] Speaker A: Even. Just doesn't even have to die. Just need to get and, like, sure. Just maimed again. Yeah, I think we talked about with the nice guys, it makes me think of, like, in the nice guys with that poor woman on the other window just gets shot in the shoulder on accident where it's like, just more of those. Like, that's. I mean, that's. Again, there is. I feel like if you had another director who is willing to go a little bit farther, we would have had more of those. [01:11:56] Speaker B: Sure. [01:11:56] Speaker A: And I think Joe Johnson, again, I think he does a good job with this movie. I think this is definitely the goriest. And it's, I would say, probably one of the coolest films that Joe Johnson has done because this man didn't have to fucking do this movie. [01:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess he did, like, he only joined the film like, less than a month before they shot it. [01:12:16] Speaker A: I know there was someone else, I think, who was tied to it. [01:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I know at one point, shoot, what was his name? Frank Darabont was talked to about this as well as James Mangold. Fuck, yeah. [01:12:29] Speaker A: That walked the line. James Mangold era. But this movie would have just been something else. Yeah, that would have been kind of fun. But the. It shows a lot when you bring up both those names and my head immediately goes, oh, that would have been probably more interesting, hopefully. But, like, in terms, like, they have more of a voice than what you kind of seen with like Johnston, who, again, Johnson has good movies. [01:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Just as a solid director. [01:12:53] Speaker A: He has a lot of good movies under his belt, but it's just like the man that did fucking green Mile doing fucking wolf man. Or the mist. Like, this would have been post the mist. [01:13:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:03] Speaker A: Rated r. Oh, my God. [01:13:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:06] Speaker A: Thomas Jean would be a good werewolf. I just thought my head. [01:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah, he would. [01:13:09] Speaker A: He kind of looks like one now a little bit. [01:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah, he does. [01:13:12] Speaker A: A little scruffy in a good way, but. Yeah, that's the odd Wolfman trilogy. [01:13:19] Speaker B: It also gives us the most elaborate wolf on wolf fight. [01:13:23] Speaker A: That is true. More wire work. [01:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Which leads. It is kind of. It's probably also the funniest fight just because it's like you're trying to imagine. I. Okay, which of these shots is Anthony Hopkins in full werewolf makeup and which are the sun double? [01:13:38] Speaker A: And I feel like the answer is none of them are Anthony. They're all stunt double. [01:13:41] Speaker B: They just made his makeup look like a wolf. Anthony Hopkins. [01:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that whole. It's also the fact that there's so much going on where it's like, there are hunters looking for both of them. [01:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:51] Speaker A: With. Led by Hugo weaving, which we haven't even brought up, but, like, Hugo weaving is in the film and he's in the film. [01:13:57] Speaker B: He's in the film. I mean, almost nothing. [01:13:59] Speaker A: And he gets bitten. And it's like you think the film would try to say, oh, there's a sequel. But they don't really sequel bait. They just say, like, oh, he's alive. [01:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah. There's not even really, like a. Not even setting up a sequel, but just like, there's not really even, like, a stinger of, like, oh, he was bit. It's gonna happen. It's just. He's bit. And then the film moves on and then it ends. [01:14:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And. But, like, the whole fight between Anthony Hopkins and Del Toro, all their stunt doubles is, like, not only happening in their mansion in, like, the living room. [01:14:28] Speaker B: Living rooms on fire. [01:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:30] Speaker B: Threw something in the fireplace. [01:14:32] Speaker A: Yeah, they. Somebody goes into the fireplace. It starts. It's just basically lit to shit. Everything's burning down like a classic. Almost like in Frankenstein. [01:14:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:41] Speaker A: And it's just like. It's wire work of two hairy stunt doubles jumping at each other. And it ends on a shot of a decapitated Anthony Hopkins head. [01:14:53] Speaker B: CGI. [01:14:54] Speaker A: Head. [01:14:54] Speaker B: Completely CGI. [01:14:55] Speaker A: That is, I would say, by far the worst CGI in the entire film, which is saying something because surprisingly, there is some good CGI in this movie that's 14 years old. [01:15:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:05] Speaker A: Like, I think the bear at the. The Romani camp was, like, shocking. Like, I was the elk. Like, the deer was clearly, like, CG, but, like, the bear. Well, it's like, he was just there. Yeah, but, like, they did a lot of good animation with that bear. And also they're, like, clearly knew, like, okay, everything needs to be in the dark. But then, like, there'd be times where, like, you know, the Anthony Hopkins head or, like, the deer, where it's, like, a broad daylight. [01:15:28] Speaker B: The, um. [01:15:28] Speaker A: The transformation's really good in CG. [01:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah, the transformation seems pretty good. Um, I like the, like, the mouth details on his transformation. You can see, like, his jaw splitting and things. Yeah, it's kind of nasty. [01:15:42] Speaker A: His finger, his pinky going, like, completely 90 degrees, which is, like, great. Yeah, yeah, it's. There's some. There's some great little moments in the movie, but overall. [01:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's not, like, a good movie. I don't think it's, like, terrible, though. [01:15:59] Speaker A: See, I think it's good enough, but, like, it's not. Like, if you watch it once and you're like, yeah, yeah, that's it. Like, that's. No one is gonna watch this movie, I think, any more than, like, the original. Like, the original is definitely going to be the go to. [01:16:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Except for, like, this movie probably got, like. I don't know. I don't want to put too much effort into defending it because I don't think it's that great of a movie. But, like, it feels like looking at the reception to this movie, it was, like, kind of overly. [01:16:28] Speaker A: Oh, it was. [01:16:30] Speaker B: And I just. I think that was probably the time. And it was like, oh, yeah, it's the 2010s. Everything's CGI now. Oh. And we're remaking all time classics. Yes. But also, let's. Let's be realistic. The original Wolf man is not a masterpiece. [01:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's. It's very flawed. It's even slow in itself. The 69 minutes are like, yeah, this cover could be 49, but, like, I mean, this is still fine. Yeah, but, like, yeah, the original wolf man is flawed, but it is a classic. Well, this is a flawed interpretation of a flawed classic, so it's, like, even more flawed. And the worst parts about this film is where it kind of feels like a copy of a copy. [01:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:09] Speaker A: And. But, yeah, it's. [01:17:11] Speaker B: There was just a lot of, like, in the reviews, and so there was just a lot of, like, oh, this spits in the face of the original. Oh, how I think, what is it spitting on? [01:17:20] Speaker A: I think, honestly, the cool that it just tries to do something different and it works when it's going full ham, but it doesn't really work when it's. [01:17:29] Speaker B: Doesn't commit all the way. [01:17:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly. Honestly, I feel like this film would have been better received if there had been a red band trailer that kind of showed more of the gore. Because I do remember when I. Because I think I didn't. I didn't see this in theaters. You said you did. [01:17:43] Speaker B: I did. I think I saw this with my dad, which is kind of crazy to think about because my dad is not really into these kinds of movies, but he's. Nor would I think he would take his 14 year old son into this kind of movie. [01:17:56] Speaker A: He's a big Larry Talbot fan. [01:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess that's where it comes from. [01:17:59] Speaker A: But I remember when I think my parents rented this movie, or, like, maybe I watched it by myself on, like, Netflix when streaming, and I just remember when we got to the camp scene and people were just getting slaughtered. [01:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:11] Speaker A: I was like, holy fuck. This is what this film has been the whole time. Yeah, that's kind of rad. But also, I was like, there's nothing in the trailer that would ever discern that this is what. [01:18:21] Speaker B: They don't really give away the violent it gets. [01:18:23] Speaker A: They show the transformations and. But they don't. Yeah. Really show. [01:18:28] Speaker B: We did watch the unrated version of this, which is just. It's not like a super exciting extended cut or anything. It's just. I guess some of the violence is less restrained. But the weird thing is, obviously, I hadn't seen this in 14 years. [01:18:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:44] Speaker B: But there was. There was nothing in what we saw when we watched this together that I didn't remember. [01:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:51] Speaker B: From the. The first time I watched it in theaters, maybe it was just. Yeah. Slightly longer shots of the violence or. [01:18:58] Speaker A: Something in my head. Canon. Nothing has changed, except there are four extra seconds of the man with the broken back. [01:19:05] Speaker B: The wagon. [01:19:07] Speaker A: Yeah, there's just four to five extra seconds. That's all. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Joe. Josh, that shot was entirely cut from the theater. [01:19:12] Speaker A: Well, then it's honestly a weaker film. It is. It goes down a genuine star if it takes that out. But, yeah, that's the odd Wolf man trilogy. Happy Halloween, everybody. [01:19:23] Speaker B: Halloween. [01:19:24] Speaker A: It's fun to go into classic monsters, especially. We're at an era where studios are afraid to do anything that has to do with the classic monsters. But, yeah, it is what it is. It is a perfect time to do that. And similar to our jump from alien to sonye, we're taking another leap. [01:19:46] Speaker B: Big genre shift. [01:19:47] Speaker A: Yep. On our 1st November trilogy, we are doing something that's a little bit more. A little bit more sneaky, maybe a little bit more paranoid, per se. And do you want to take that away? Tell us what our 1st November trilogy will be. [01:20:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's, you know, it's a politically charged time of year. It's about to be the election upon us, and I haven't even thought of it. Political drama everywhere. [01:20:11] Speaker A: I'm kidding. [01:20:11] Speaker B: I thought too much about it. There is one trilogy in the filmic canon, kind of built all around this notion of paranoia and civil and social and political unrest. Three films put to screen by a man named Alan J. Pakula. Those being clute, all the president's men and I. Where'd the other one go? I've lost it. [01:20:52] Speaker A: Well, you look into it as he finds the third one, because, again, it's weird. We are. We are so far ahead of schedule. We were so ready to talk about Wolfman. We didn't even think about. Think about our November stuff. But what we were. What he was going to say is that we were doing Pacula's paranoia trilogy, a trilogy that is going to be, I think, of the three, I think I know for certain when you find the third one. I've only seen all the president's men. [01:21:21] Speaker B: I have seen none of them. Oh. [01:21:23] Speaker A: I mean, I'm excited to watch all the president's men again. That's a great film. I remember loving that film when I saw it. I didn't even think about that for some reason. I think just because of Mike Nichols. I thought that was a Mike Nichols film at some point. Sure. [01:21:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:35] Speaker A: But that's. I'm excited to rewatch that film. Is there a big gap between Kloot and all the president's men? [01:21:42] Speaker B: I think it's somewhere around a decade. [01:21:45] Speaker A: Damn. Well, that's a gap. That's a gap. [01:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah. It's Kloot, Parallax view, and then all the presidents. [01:21:51] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:21:52] Speaker B: There's the final one. Klute, I think, is 1971, and then Parallax view, I think, is 74 and then maybe 78 presidents. [01:22:00] Speaker A: All right. Well, that is. [01:22:02] Speaker B: And they're not. These are nothing films connected by plot or characters. They're just three films exploring the very kind of specific time in the kind of american political climate in the seventies. And the. You know, we're kind of. We're post Vietnam, but not post enough to be over it yet. [01:22:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:26] Speaker B: Still feeling the effects and we're, you know, kind of getting into the heights of the cold War, you know, that being on the horizon. And so, you know, I don't know that any of them will have much bearing on our current political climate, but I thought it was a fun concept to just kind of immerse ourselves in that kind of. I don't know if terror is the right word, but that kind of suspense and thrill. [01:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Existential will probably be. Let's put it this way. If it doesn't have much to tie into this current political climate, all the better. [01:23:00] Speaker B: That's fine. [01:23:01] Speaker A: That's fine. As long as they're great films, that's fine. But if they do, the season gonna have a. Yeah. Tis the season for us to just dive deep. So, yeah. Tune in on November 2 when we tackle Pacula's Paranoia trilogy, which, again, is clute, parallax, view, and all the president's men. And as always, I'm Logan Sowash. [01:23:22] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:23:23] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.