Episode 88: Joker Starter Pack

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to odd trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowas. [00:00:24] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:25] Speaker A: And on odd trilogies, we take a true films whether tied by cast and crew, the mathematic elements or even numerical order. And we discuss the good, the bad and the weird surrounding them. And today we are doing the first of what could possibly be many of our new types of trilogies. This is a first because in honor of the new release, as of this episodes, even though we always record live, but, you know, as of this episode's release, the newest release of the weekend and the biggest release of not even October, but probably one of the biggest releases of the fall is Joker full of do. At this point, I've said it in. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Ways, three different ways. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Three different ways. But also it's just, you know, Joker two, basically. And. But before we get to that, in case you didn't know on our website as this episode, if you're listening to this web episode now, then you should also know that if you've been curious about releases before Joker aka Megapolis or the Wild Robot, both Andy and I have respective reviews for those films on our website. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Check them out. [00:01:33] Speaker A: And. Yeah. And we are totally not doing this episode in the future. So. And if we did, I honestly wouldn't want to even see what my review is a megapolis yet. I want it to be as surprising as possible. [00:01:47] Speaker B: No. So we're getting no. We're getting no Logan predictions on his reviews from the past. [00:01:53] Speaker A: I predict that Francis Ford Coppola has made his entire career wanting to make films like Megaopolis. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:00] Speaker A: And the one time he did it early in his career, he had to take the rest of his career to basically make up for that one passion project. So I'm hoping that after 30 plus years of working on this in some way, shape or form that Megopolis is worth seeing. But I sure. Other than that, I do. I hope the wild robot is good. [00:02:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah. But guess what? If you're listening to this episode, you can already check out what we thought of him now. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah, we already know. [00:02:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And today is not about megapolis or the wild robot. Today is about Joe, like to call. We like to call our Joker starter Pack trilogy or just the Joker starter pack. And what that means is the best way that Andy described it to me because this is more of your idea. More than just my idea. [00:02:52] Speaker B: You reminded me of that last episode. I had kind of forgotten that. Yeah. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is because there are just certain ideas that we both have that, like, hit us in the moment and we just throw it to one another. And I think we don't realize ultimately we have to, like, oh, no. We're actually going to have to explain where that idea is to other people. But no, I really liked at least the way you described it to me was the idea that, like, you know, you know, we have talked about doing trios about, of course, like in the intro thematic elements or just like, cast and crew. And it's interesting to have an idea or even the rise of a director or, like, maybe even their first three films like we just did with the rise of Saulnier. It is. It. They don't really tie into one another except for, like, the director's trademarks or maybe cast here and there. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:41] Speaker A: As well as, like, you know, progression. And I think with this, it is fascinating to look at this trilogy as a way of being, like, if you have been seeing the trailers for Joker, electric boogaloo or full of doom, and you've been wondering, you know what? I never saw 20 nineteen's Joker. Well, we thought it'd be fun to tie into a recent release by talking about three films that will absolutely give you context, as in an understatement, a context from some of these films about the kind of where Joker is coming from, from the inception of the character itself all the way to the aesthetic as well as the theming and the look overall of what Todd Phillips was going for for that first Joker and assumingly for full Adu as well. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah, and just. Yeah. I mean, basically, we're just kind of. With this notion of a starter pack, it's kind of like we're looking at the. The DNA of a particular film. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:41] Speaker B: In the form of three films that came out before or whatever, you know, films that served as inspiration. And Joker's kind of a natural fit for that. Cause when that movie came out, there was a lot of discussion of its obvious influences and things like that. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Which we definitely get to. [00:05:03] Speaker B: That's how this came about. [00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. But in case you don't know, the three films are 1920 eight's the man who laughs, 1970 six's Taxi Driver, and 1980 two's the King of Comedy. For those of you out there who've been waiting for us to do a Scorsese trilogy, congrats. You're getting two thirds of one, basically, with this trilogy. Maybe you'll get a full one sometime in the future. But as of right now, we're basically talking about the original silent film that pretty much helped inspire Joker as a character in the comics in the thirties, which, of course, without that character, we wouldn't have gotten the Academy Award winning film in 2019. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:44] Speaker A: But we also are talking about the two Scorsese films that Phillips clearly uses as a foundation for a lot of, if not for most of the film, which, of course, are Scorsese's classics. Well, one of them is a all time classic classic, and one is honestly a sleeper classic, which is kind of. [00:06:04] Speaker B: A lesser classic or a minor. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Classic in the old sense. [00:06:08] Speaker A: And to be completely honest, which we will get to, I understand why the latter one is the sleeper classic to an extent. [00:06:13] Speaker B: Sure. Sure. [00:06:14] Speaker A: But to go right into our first film, because to be honest, we don't really have collectively too much to say about the first film other than the fact that it's, it's hard. It'd be hard not to watch the man who laughs and not automatically go, oh, of course, this is where the Joker started because the main character, the. [00:06:37] Speaker B: Man, looks like the laughs. [00:06:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Literally basically had to wear a prosthetic that put his face in a constant smile the entire film, which, of course, yeah. In classic silent film era, he's also wearing a mask like a, like a bandana over his face for a good chunk of it. So Conrad Veidt, the actor who is the man who laughs, doesn't have to constantly have that grin at all times. But going into this trilogy, we were kind of, this is the one that we, you know, we were curious to watch because we both, I mean, we both are comic book nerds enough that we have, I think at one point had someone or had seen someone talk about, you know, where the Joker came from. [00:07:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's, it's kind of like a classic bit of nerd trivia. Like, Joker was inspired by this character from the Mandev who laughs. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah. To me, this, this in comic book history is the same thing as, like, did you know that George Lucas liked Flash Gordon is to, like, Star wars movie history. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and I will say, like, in the context of this trilogy and how we're kind of, like, looking at these films in relation to the 2019 film Joker. This one's probably the biggest stretch just because it has more to do with the comic book character the Joker than it does with the 2019 film. [00:08:02] Speaker A: But, I mean, yeah, it's there. [00:08:04] Speaker B: But there are, there are definitely things we can pull from. [00:08:07] Speaker A: Probably the biggest thing that comes from the man who laughs that you don't get from taxi driver the king of comedy is that the main character is literally a clown. That's like the biggest connection between the two. And because, honestly, the thing, too, about the man who laughs and why. Why it's such kind of a. An odder choice of this three when talking about 20. Nineteen's joker is the fact that the lead is not only just. He's not just a tragic character, he's genuinely a good guy. [00:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:36] Speaker A: Which is like the thing. It's like. It's genuinely. The whole premise of the man who laughs is basically a child who was forced into a surgery that deformed his face into a permanent smile that he didn't have any choice in the matter of. Yeah, I finds out later in life that he was actually the son of a noble. And so, of course, the queen of France. And, you know, that era basically were using. Is it France? Yeah, it's France because it's a Victor Hugo novel. [00:09:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, in the movie they might. No, it is. I think they. They like. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Do they. [00:09:13] Speaker B: There's reference to the Queen of England. So they might, like, transpose it into England. [00:09:20] Speaker A: It might be. It might be just. It might just be in England. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:24] Speaker A: But basically. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're the beginning of the movies. They're banishing the comprachios from England. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:09:32] Speaker B: The King bans them. So, yeah, I think it's all in England. [00:09:35] Speaker A: But it's very clear watching the man who laughs at the one reason why. I think anyone who is a fan of Joker and it's curious not just of the film but also the character itself but also anyone who is probably going to play that character in the future. It's a fun tidbit going back to the man who laughs because the man who laughs himself, Conrad Veidt, is the star for a reason. In this film, he plays, again, one of the best things about silent films of that era. He plays double duty in the film by playing his father in the very early part of it and then the man who laughs himself, the remainder of it. But even though I didn't know that because I personally didn't know that he was. [00:10:19] Speaker B: I didn't see that until afterward. Yeah. [00:10:21] Speaker A: But I knew immediately because when I saw his face when he was playing his father, the look in his eyes. There is such a striking look in Conrad's fight, Conrad's face by itself that it's like this guy has to be doing the man who laughs as well. And lo, behold, he fucking does. And he is genuinely just phenomenal to watch because it's again, the Joker is, as a character is always known of having just a permanent grin on his face. How do you convey emotion? Well, with that disability, to a degree. And Conrad Veidt, again, the amount of times his eyes are doing just backflips and just pirouettes just to get the emotions out is just phenomenal. And it's honestly the main reason watching the film is for Conrad, other than the fact that it's just, you know, it's fascinating to go back nearly a century ago to watch a film and seeing, like, what the popular, you know, a popular film was back then, just in a historical sense. And I. Yeah. We both also understand that, like, of these three films we're going to talk about today, this is gonna be the most difficult to sell because it's a silent film. [00:11:39] Speaker B: It's also like, because I didn't really realize until I started watching it. I mean, this movie was kind of frequently, I think, kind of mislabeled as kind of like a horror movie. I think mostly just because Gwynplaine, the man who laughs, the main character, looks kind of terrifying. Yes. He's got a grotesque smile on his face all the time. But this is really like, it's a love story. It's a social drama in the vein of the Elephant man talking about how we treat people who are different than us and that sort of thing. There's not really a horror element to it. [00:12:23] Speaker A: No, no. Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker B: So that is something that, if you do check this out, bear that in mind. It's not the spooky thing that the poster kind of shows or that you would think from being the inspiration for the Joker. Yeah. It's more of a drama than anything. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And honestly, I think it does have the benefit of the fact that since it is such an old film going into it, blinden, there are some good little twists and turns there as well as some great moments. I do think that, like, you know, the biggest moment to me, at least in the film, is there's the thing. The love triangle. The film is very fun and fascinating because Gwen plane has the love of his life who is a. Who is a blind woman. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker A: Who is basically, they grew up together and they basically fell in love as they were growing up together when they were with. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, they were both. They were both. I mean, so, like, gwynplaine was abandoned as a child. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:29] Speaker B: And then found the baby, Dia, this woman, as an infant and carried her through the wilderness until they were found by this traveling showman in her frozen. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Dead mom's arms, if I remember correctly. Again, this is, yeah, not a horror film, but a very sad film. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Tragic. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah, very tragic. It makes sense. Cause Rit is based off of a story by Victor Hugo, who's mainly known for Les Mis, as well as other stories, an iconic author. And it's hard not to watch this film and think, oh, boy, I wonder if a happy ending is even in the cards for this scenario. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:14:10] Speaker A: But, no, the big scene that I think really stuck out to me the most was when the love triangle is kind of introduced, where it's between Gwynplaine Diadem and the Duchess, who is basically a woman bored out of her mind, just basically having the most first world rich people problems of just being bored and being like, oh, I don't want to marry some random guy I don't like, who looks like weird Al Yankovic does. The guy looks very much like weird Al. And so she decides, like, she's gonna be rambunctious. She's not even gonna go to, like, a concert that the queen is holding, which pisses off the queen, but she goes to a fair that Gwynplaine is playing at. And basically, she is so enamored by him that when he realizes that she is not laughing at him, like, 99% of people, he is immediately like, oh, yeah, I'm not used to other people not laughing at me or being, in Dia's case, just loving me. So I'm very curious about just this duchess. What do we have a connection? And then, of course, leads to a phenomenal scene between the two where she ends up having a laughing fit over something that is very tragic in her mind. And he just assumed it's because of him. But I really love that scene, and I think it's really well done. Great acting moments in that. And that's probably, like, the biggest highlight other than Conrad, for me. [00:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Veidt is, like you said, definitely the. The big takeaway from this movie. Yeah. And I think even at the. I mean, it's. This has become kind of a. Kind of a classic in, like, film canon, I think largely because of its legacy with, like, the Joker and stuff. But it is funny. I was kind of reading about this movie and, like, its release, and, you know, people kind of thought it was mediocre. I think, like, it was kind of just another drama. And people were like, all right, whatever. [00:16:18] Speaker A: I mean, that's fair. And to be honest, with Conor Advait, this is, like, I don't even know if it's considered one of his most iconic movies. [00:16:25] Speaker B: I don't know that much about his. [00:16:27] Speaker A: Well, one of his last films he ever did us, I think he was the head Nazi in Casablanca. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:33] Speaker A: About a year before he passed away. But, yeah, he, I mean, again, it is. I think it's enough to put it up to, like, maybe a three and a half out of five, but it's definitely like a three. Like, again, it's like it is 1928. Just. That's some. There's definitely some expectations should be kept at that at all times. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:55] Speaker A: Where it's like, at a certain point, its connection to the Joker is the most fascinating. When you see, like, from this point forward, when the Joker finally gets, like, a live action adaptation, like, the most popular, you know, at that time is probably later on in the sixties with Cesar Romero. [00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:11] Speaker A: And the Adam West Batman show. But, like, you look at Cesar Romero's just design and whether or not it's meant to have Conrad's man who laughs inherently in there, you absolutely see it. [00:17:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:24] Speaker A: Because it's so ingrained in this character. And to be honest, it's like, I don't even know if. Does Batman even have that in, like, a silent film kind of like that? Yeah, I don't know. [00:17:38] Speaker B: I mean, he's, Batman is like, was he inspired by the spirit or did the spirit come after as the spirit's like a comic book, another comic character? But anyway. Yeah. And honestly, I mean, I think something I did really enjoy about this movie is that it? I mean, this movie is kind of, I think I get the impression where a certain aspect of the Joker character comes from, and that's that being, like, the kind of the tragedy and the horror of a person permanently stuck with a smile and that kind of like, you know, it's kind of haunting when you're watching these sad scenes in this movie and Conrad Veidt's got tears poured, streaming down his face and his eyes say sadness, but his face is twisted into this grin. And those are, that's one of my favorite things in certain Batman adaptations, when they really focus on that aspect of Joker's character of, like, oh, he's. Yes, he's a maniac, a sociopath. He's fucking evil. But also, like, he's trapped in this state of constant glee, kind of. And maniacal laughter. And this grin plastered across his face. I always like the, you know, when, when Joker comes up with a chemical or a contraption to make other people smile, that's always gruesome and, and, you know, like the. What's the shit? Is it killing Joke or another Batman story where he's like, he, like, tells a joke and is laughing about it and then he's like, why aren't you laughing or something? I don't know. I butchered it. [00:19:39] Speaker A: I think it's killing joke. I think it's what you're talking about. [00:19:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know, but, yeah, I just love that aspect of the character. The kind of the clown who cried kind of old world tragedy to his character. And that's kind of entirely what this movie is operating on. So I enjoyed watching from that angle. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's also the fact that, like, unlike taxi driver and king of comedy, there is an angle of the man who laughs that surprisingly does transfer over, whether indirectly or directly, to 20 nineteen's joker, which is the character, the lead character, whether it's Arthur Fleck. Is it fleck, Arthur Fleck? Or, you know, or gwynplaine in the main whole laughs. It is whether or not they are an evil character, they are an underdog, as well as sometimes they can be in a kind of a beloved person with the lower class or just someone that becomes an icon to many just overnight, because that's a big thing about the man who laughs is like, when, hilariously enough, Gwynplaine is more of kind of a status or like a symbol to the working class, more as a clown being laughed at than when he's an actual noble. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:56] Speaker A: And of course, in 2019 Stroker, it talks about the idea of just taking a stance on something that you are very passionate about in one way, shape, or form, and the ramifications that could come with that, including a civil unrest, which both films have that. But of course, Quinn Plain is not an evil character or really just a bad guy in general. He is his big. His big, like, his big standout moment for himself is basically saying, listen, I might be a noble, but I'm also just a man. I might have been a clown, but, like, I have. I love this person. I'm gonna go out for them. And it's like, that's their big moment is basically just trying to remind people that he's human. Like. Again, it's 1928. Like, it's. That's that. It's a story that is probably definitely older than that. So it's very much. It's very much as straightforward as can be, and it is definitely gonna have, if you've watched a silent film at a certain point in your life and you have certain hang ups with just the, you know, the whole kind of watching, like, the viewing of it, it is still gonna be apparent in the man who laughs, but it's a good time. I would recommend it, especially if you've always been like us, where you've been aware of the film in terms of its inspirations on other culture, but not the actual media. It's like the actual, you know, media itself. I've just been curious as to where that comes from, because it's like. I believe it's like a six to eight year gap between when this movie comes out and then when the Joker is kind of introduced in comics to children, because, again, Batman comics, even though he had a gun back then, were made for kids at certain point. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess one more kind of connection thing, and then, honestly, I'm fine if we move on to taxi driver. Yeah, me too, I guess one little. Another piece of lineage that you can trace from 20 nineteen's Joker back to this, however convolutedly. The Joker in the film has a chronic condition in which, you know, he has, like, a medical card for it. It's an actual condition where he can't help but laugh. Like it's a. It's. I don't know if it's technically like a tick or what, or just like a convulsion or something, but he laughs under stress. He laughs at random. And I think you can kind of trace that back to, I mean, obviously, through the comics and everything, because not every portrayal of Joker has that, but that is something they decided to emphasize in the film. And I think you can kind of trace that back to Gwynplaine's permanent disfigured smile here. That kind of being trapped in a body that betrays you. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, you can't. It's hard not to watch the movie and be like, oh, my God, no wonder. This is. This is. There's an absolute. It would be a crime not to take that Conrad Weitz performance and turn it into something more as an inspiration down the line. And, of course, it led to where we are now, where we're talking about. It's now gone from 1928 to going to a film that came out in 2019 that won two oscars. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:31] Speaker A: You know, yes. Indirectly led to that film. But still, it's very fascinating. Just like it made sense to us. Why not start a starter pack with literally, the film that without this film, probably exists. Yeah. Wouldn't be here. But now, while that is true to an extent in terms of the actual meat and potatoes of 20 nineteen's Joker, we are now going to talk about the two films that with genuinely. Without these two films, this movie would not exist. [00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, these are the two films that Joker was kind of infamously accused of being a ripoff of or a. Or a fusion of. Yeah, I think fairly so. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Absolutely. After rewatching taxi driver and watching the king of comedy for the first time, it is hard not to be just. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Gobsmacked by the clear, very obvious lineage. But, yeah, taxi driver. Yeah. This was one of Scorsese early films. He did what mean streets before this. [00:25:45] Speaker A: I think he did a film in film school with Keitel. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Late sixties, early seventies. He did. They got Scorsese kind of track. I think this might technically be his fifth film. Fourth or fifth? [00:26:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:00] Speaker A: He did like a pseudo documentary also with Harvey Keitel, I think, called New York, New York. Or was that before this? I think New York, New York might be after. But there was another New York film that I think is. I'd have to look it up again. I was looking up. I was looking it up these last two days. Just. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, he did. He also did Alice doesn't live here anymore before this. I didn't realize that before this, but I actually saw that movie last year for the first time. [00:26:29] Speaker A: Fucking love Scorsese's career and just how wild and all over the place it is. And I don't mean that in a bad way. [00:26:37] Speaker B: No, I mean, literally, Alice doesn't live here anymore. Could not be more different, tonally, than taxi driver. [00:26:44] Speaker A: I also didn't know he did the color of money, which in my head, I just literally was just like, to think that an early crews, you know, early cruise. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Also a sequel to the Paul Newman movie, the Hustler. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Hustler, yeah. And the fact that it's, like, almost a returning. Like, Paul Newman getting a little bit. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Of, like, a legacy sequel. [00:27:06] Speaker A: I need to watch color of money now, but it's pretty good. [00:27:09] Speaker B: I like it, but, yeah. [00:27:10] Speaker A: Taxi driver is 1976. Had a budget of just under 2 million. It is a controversial film in many ways when it came out. Yeah, definitely one of the biggest stories. Of course, it's considered Tarantino's favorite myth because I don't think it's ever been fully confirmed. Yeah, fully confirmed. But the fact that the film nearly got an x rating because of the color of its blood. And of course, at a certain point, Scorsese did change the pigment of the blood and actually got rated r because of the change. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Darker, right? [00:27:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the cinematographer and or the editor basically really wished that they didn't do that to the negatives because apparently now you can have a version of the film without it having, like, that kind of Campbell soup, tomato like. [00:28:02] Speaker B: Campbell destructive editing right there, ladies. [00:28:04] Speaker A: Yeah. But apparently the biggest myth that Tarantino loves is that Scorsese was gonna kill the guy from the MPAA that was nearly gonna give it an x ray. [00:28:14] Speaker B: He, like, had a gun, supposedly. [00:28:16] Speaker A: And then he came up with the idea of changing the pigment. I think he saw a color and was like, I could do that to the blood. Yeah, yeah, in the editing process. But, no, I mean, we have done this several times when we talk about classic films on the pod, where it's like, taxi driver is a classic for a reason. It's got a phenomenal score by Bernard Herrmann. It has Robert De Niro even before he does raging fucking bull for Scorsese, just knocking it out the park at the age of 33. They keep saying he's 26 in this movie, and it's. I'm like, you can't quit lying to me. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:53] Speaker A: But again, De Niro's always had an old face regardless. I mean, even the little I've seen in mean streets, he just has. [00:29:00] Speaker B: Yeah, even in mean streets, he definitely looks older than he's supposed to be. [00:29:04] Speaker A: Yeah, he's got a little rugged of a face. But taxi Driver is a film that, you know, for many, many years, at least for me, I had never actually seen it in full and was one of those films where I thought that, you know, I thought I'd seen enough through osmosis that, you know, I will get to it at some point. And then perfect timing when it comes to talking about the starter pack. I watched it for the very first time in its full, the same day Andy and I saw Joker in theaters in 2019, because I was like, I. [00:29:36] Speaker B: Don'T know if I knew that, or maybe I just forgot that. [00:29:38] Speaker A: So what basically happened was we were gonna get dinner before we saw Joker together. I had gotten off work and was like, you know what? I have enough time before we go get dinner because we were going to see with a bunch of friends. He's like, you know what? Fuck it. I constantly see people call Joker a taxi driver ripoff, and the film hasn't even been out yet. Yeah, it might be interesting just to not only go in with Joker with a fresh mindset of just taxi driver, but also finally just get the full context. And so I watched Taxi driver for the first time in 2019, went into Joker, and was quite shocked by just, like, how much watching taxi driver really gave me the narrative I needed to see in terms of what I liked about what Phillips tries to do with Joker and what I don't like. One of the biggest things about Joker that I don't because the thing that's so phenomenal about taxi driver and what's phenomenal about the king of comedy that ultimately, while we do suggest that, you know, definitely watch these films, but keep in mind that if you watch these films before you see Joker, there is an angle to both of these films that I think holds Joker back. And that is the fact that Scorsese makes two films about two damaged, very troubling individuals and the man doesn't hold back at all. It also helps that the taxi driver script is written by Paul Schradere. [00:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Pulse rater. Loves torturing the tortured. [00:31:10] Speaker A: He. Oh, he certainly does. And it's. It's so much so that his resurgence in the last like, decade has basically been torturing. [00:31:20] Speaker B: Yeah. He has a whole trilogy apart from this movie that are basically doing the same things as this movie. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Yes. In case you've not. You don't know, but if you've seen the Ethan Hawk film, first reformed, that is the phenomenal film love first reformed, but that is written and directed by Paul Schrader, Taxi Driver. And on top of all that, you also. Yeah, it's a Bernard Herrmann for a score that is literally two or three fucking. Two or three motifs in themes that are constantly used throughout this film but are fucking phenomenal. And it is. You have a. You have a fucking performance from Jodie Foster at the age of twelve or 1414. I think her characters. Her character is twelve in the film, but she's 14 when she shot it. It is fascinating to see a 14 year old Jodie Foster get in scenes with Robert De Niro and genuinely hold her own in her own way. And. Yeah, fascinating to think that, like score says he just found that. It's also the fact that, like Jody F. Jodie Foster's inclusion in the Taxi driver led to an actual mentally deranged person to try and kill Ronald Reagan. [00:32:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:43] Speaker A: Taxi driver has so much lore, connection time. Yeah. Actually have so little to do with Joker. [00:32:50] Speaker B: I believe. I believe taxi driver also released the same summer as. Was it the son of Sam murders. So it's like, like this weird kind of. I think it's like maybe a month or two before. And, you know, that's just like a weird, weird timing thing of like another public kind of based. I mean, the events that happen in this movie, he's not like a mass murderer or serial killer, but, you know, it's a similar sort of the public watching this horrid event and responding to it. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:28] Speaker B: As, like, a media craze. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Because the big thing about taxi driver, that joker obviously takes. And to be honest, why wouldn't you, especially if you can make it work. And it's basically taking the idea of a troubled protagonist who is sick of life, who believes society needs change and believes that he might be able to do some of that change in his own way, whether it's the right way to do it or not. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:55] Speaker A: Which is already as a basis. Is like, yeah, that can work for a fucking villain. [00:34:01] Speaker B: But also. Yeah. The kind of Travis Bickle and Arthur Fleck have the same sort of mistaking personal life frustrations for, you know, greater world problems or a world that rejects you completely. Yes. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:23] Speaker B: These movies take, I would argue, different stances on that type of figure in that line of thinking, which we get to here. [00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Because that's the thing, too. Is like. And it shows just how good taxi driver is and how much it stood the test of time nearly 50 years later is the fact that, like, when you think of what the. When you think a troubled individual who is, you know, you get you. He just needs to have one bad day and things will just go to shit. You think of. You think of it. I think expectations. [00:34:58] Speaker B: One bad day. Oh, you mean like the Joker in the joke? [00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. See, Andy's tired. Look at that. But you would think expectations wise, it would be. Exactly. In most cases, like Arthur Fleck and Joker, where it's like they don't have. They have a troubled house life, whether it's abusive or it's the fact that they're. And at least in Joker's case, Arthur's mom is completely just fucking nuts and has been through so much throughout her life. She's gone through her own periods. And clearly there's a very strange relationship there. And on top of just, you know, everything else that Arthur's going through, you would think that, like, the world is beating down on this character constantly. That's almost like the world is asking to have an uprising by this person and taxi driver in one of the best fucking subversions of that in the seventies and I think is even why it's so fresh today is that it really doesn't have that. The world is not beating down Travis Bickle. The world is just existing, really, without him. And that's why he doesn't. [00:36:08] Speaker B: That's why he's frustrated. Yeah. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's also the fact, like, he doesn't have an abusive relationship with his parents. In fact, I. His parents are not even in the picture. And he lies to them. He lies to them and says he works for the government. Like, they don't. They don't live in New York. They don't know what he does for a living. And the fact that the film is basically about a man taking a woman out because he thinks she's the most beautiful woman he's ever seen. He takes her out to a really hard to watch, very cringe worthy date to a porno theater because Travis Bickle doesn't understand the difference between a regular movie theater and a porno movie theater. That when that woman goes, hey, I'm not really into this, I'm out. His response is, oh, okay. My whole life's goal is going to be me killing your boss because I think you love that man and I don't want you to have that. And that's the premise. Like, it's so fascinating. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I mean, Travis Bickle's, like, basically the kind of template for the modern, like, incel what we think of as that. [00:37:22] Speaker A: I mean this with the most sincerity possible. Because if you have someone in your life that watches taxi driver and just unironically sees themselves in Travis Pickle, encourage. [00:37:37] Speaker B: Them to get help. [00:37:38] Speaker A: Yes. Because it's the thing that's so crazy about the character is just the fact that it's like, this character clearly feels it's supposed to engross you, mainly because you don't understand fully where he's coming from. Because it is a madness there that is not to the point of, like, lunacy. It's not to the point of, like, the actual Joker. It's a realistic kind of, like, madness. But it's also, like, it almost gives you a comparison of, like, you know what? I've had bad days. I've had sad days. I've had rough moments in my life. Never have I ever been in the same position as this man in terms of mentally. So I guess I have that going for me. [00:38:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:25] Speaker A: And the fact is, is like, the differences between the. Between Joker's interpretation of what Scorsese does in taxi driver versus what Scorsese actually does is the fact that Arthur Fleck in Joker is. Is supposed to be seen as an empathetic character to a degree. And there's an issue with that. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's. I think, you know, the way you would justify it or I guess, how probably how Todd Phillips justified it is. Arthur effectively becomes a symbol for, like, mental health reform in that movie. [00:39:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:13] Speaker B: He's a mentally ill individual, and literally everyone he encounters in that movie is, like, cartoonishly evil to him and cruel and just, you know, almost literally throwing him to the curb. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Or they're just, like, really nice people that are way too open about, you know, if the government hadn't cut our funding, maybe we'd be able to help more people. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Or maybe there wouldn't be so much trash on the streets that they hadn't cut, you know, just like, cleanliness. [00:39:45] Speaker B: And it's like, oh, and Phillips, or I don't even remember who wrote that movie. Did Todd Phillips write the movie? [00:39:54] Speaker A: I thought it was Todd and Scott Silver, because I think Scott Silver is one of the writers on full ado. [00:40:01] Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah. But they take kind of this Travis Bickle story as a template, but then they kind of reframe it in a way such that their Travis Bickle can be empathetic or a sympathetic character, even arguably heroic. [00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:25] Speaker B: And I think that is kind of something that takes a little bit out of it because it's entirely not the point of taxi driver. [00:40:36] Speaker A: No. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So to kind of, you know, I guess, reframe that sort of figure, that sort of troubled individual who's turning personal frustrations into global resentments and spinning it in a way to where it's like, oh, no, it makes perfect sense why he's this way and he's right to be this way. It just sort of defeats the purpose of exploring that character, which is something that obviously taxi driver gets right in that almost all the characters that Travis bickle runs into or interacts with are, like, normal people. [00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:23] Speaker B: I mean, or they're, you know, they may be into, you know, in the fringes of society. Like, he does interact with some pimps and prostitutes, but, you know, they're like, they're not cartoonishly cruel or, like, out to get him. He just thinks they are. [00:41:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's even, like, instances, I just think of, like, the moment in the film where, because there's other cabbies that you see other than Travis, that he every now and again convenes with. They go to, like, a late night diner and they just hang out or they talk about this and talk about that. But, like, there's a moment, I think, the second time he goes out with all the cabbies where, like, I think it's after. I think it's right after the Martin Scorsese cameo which is quite, that is. [00:42:17] Speaker B: The one, one major exception to what I just said. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Yes. The Scorsese cameo that ultimately seems to leave Travis to be a little shook because just basically hears Scorsese's character talk about how he's going to kill, kill someone because they're sleeping with his wife, and this is how he's gonna do it and is way too confident and braggy to a random person about it. And it clearly makes Travis uncomfortable because I think internally he has thoughts like that, but he's, yeah, it's like, oh. [00:42:53] Speaker B: You can say that out loud. [00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like you, and you are, you're happy about that? Like, is there's an energy of, like, Travis being like, I don't. [00:43:01] Speaker B: I have all feelings in me, but I'm not necessarily happy about it. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it shows perfectly where, like, that era, especially the differences in generations, are supposed to be between, like, Travis in his late twenties and the seventies, as well as Peter Boyle, who plays wizard, who's one of the other cabbies that is like, yeah. Who's, I think the. One of the only cabbies that has a name. There's like a, there's a, there's a black cabbie who's really chill in like, two or three scenes that I don't even know ever gets a name. [00:43:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:43:29] Speaker A: I think most of the cabbies, I don't really know their names off top of my head, but Peter Boyle, of course, also known he's the monster and young Frankenstein, as well as Ray's dad. And everybody loves Raymond. He's, he basically is like, I don't know, man. Like, you're young. Just go have sex and do drugs. I don't know what to tell you. Like, he's, his, his advice is genuinely just like, I don't know, man, go do something. It's so, like, you can understand where he's coming from, but, like, not in a way where it's helpful. It's more just like, yeah, in an objective sense, I guess you can, I can see why you think that's the right option. And then, of course, Travis just goes, gosh, you've got bad advice. And he's like, what do you want from me? I'm a cabbie. The end of the scene. And I just kind of like. It is very entertaining to watch because, again, the film is shot so grungy, it's so dirty. It's clearly low budget to an extent of, like, especially compared to king of comedy. Working has ten times the budget. The taxi driver does. Yeah, but, like, it works in its favor, especially in the finale. The finale shootout is so just dingy and gross and just, like, romantic. Like, just completely grounded in a way that is just, like, compared to. It's one of those things where it's like, if they ever had the guts or the. Basically the lack of brains to do a taxi driver remake, it would be nowhere near as nasty and as uncomfortable as the finale is. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Cause it's like, it almost feels like it's veering into, like, grindhousey, almost snuff. Like, just the way that it's shot and the awkwardness of the violence, which is something that is kind of present in a lot of Scorsese's movies even later into his career. Yeah, that. That end sequen, not end sequence, but, like, the climactic sequence is. Yeah, it's almost like a horror scene. [00:45:34] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. It's. Yeah, it's. And then it's also the fact that it's, like, in the finale sequence that has a shootout. It is the. The most graphic the film has been the entire time. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:45] Speaker A: You see actual, like, again, for a low budget film, it's quite shocking how they got as many, like, basically practical effects of, like, the. The one guy that just gets, like, shot eight times. It's, like, gets head blown up and just. [00:45:59] Speaker B: Yeah, the other guy gets his hand blown. Blown. [00:46:03] Speaker A: But at the same time, it's like, that is as visceral as Travis pickle shooting a guy in the stomach and just walking away and then just sitting two houses because he doesn't know what. How he doesn't know what to do and doesn't know the way to do it. And if it's just, again, it is. It's always fun to go back to a classic and be. And it's. I will be saying this for years on end because it'll never not be delightful to just be, like, hearing for years that this is all. This is a phenomenal film. One of the best films ever made by this director, yada, yada. And then watch the film being like, holy shit, this is refreshing. This is very unique in its tone and how it looks and also the fact that, like, the way the taxi driver ends, the actual ending of the film, which also the king of comedy does, has such a fascinating angle that you could take it that I don't even think Todd Phillips ever thought he could really do with Joker in terms of just, like, leaving it in a way that is technically not open ended. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker A: But you could consider it that if you wanted it to. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Taxi drivers. Yeah. One of the, I guess, most famously debated movie endings of all time. Probably. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Just because it's, you know, I mean, one of the wildly or widely accepted as a fan theory is that the ending is a dream sequence, which is. [00:47:43] Speaker A: A cliche at this point in terms of people talk about movies, but, like, with this movie, it would be so. It's so. Such a cool idea. [00:47:52] Speaker B: I think it makes perfect sense the way the ending is shot and done. [00:47:58] Speaker A: And also the last thing you see him do is literally the last thing that Travis does at the very end of the film is, like, basically shake and, like, freak out over nothing in his. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah. He has, like, a sudden little moment. Freak out. Spasmovie just ends. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And it just ends. [00:48:22] Speaker B: That's his spinning top wobbling at the end of inception. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And literally, there's only been, like, one other film that has ever really pulled the rug or had not even pulled the rug, but set its ending in a way that feels like the director could pull the rug from under you at any moment and then doesn't. And then it just kind of slingers with you and then king of comedy kind of does that too. [00:48:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. [00:48:48] Speaker A: It is. It's just fascinating how, you know, the two films that feel very much like without these films, the actual. The actual body of Joker as a film wouldn't have, like, if the man who laughs is like the skeleton of in some way, shape or form of what ends up being 20. Nineteen's joker, taxi driver and the Kane comedy are the nerves, the muscles, the organs. It's everything there. And it's like. It's just shocking to see how. Just daring, both. How daring taxi driver is and how it tells that story. And not in a way that is trying to say that you should feel badlandhouse if you feel sad for Travis. Is it? Or like, it's not even trying to be a film that's telling you how to feel. It's literally just. There is a bit of a cinema verite kind of feel of just like, we're just kind of trying to shoot it in a way. We're, like, almost following a real guy. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:49] Speaker A: And then that gives it the visceral nature. [00:49:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think there is a majority sense of reality throughout this film that I don't think is. It's not necessarily present in Joker or King of comedy to the same extent. [00:50:10] Speaker A: No. Yeah. [00:50:10] Speaker B: Where this really feels. I mean, like you said, it's not necessarily sympathetic to Travis Bickle, but it is like, it's real enough that you understand why he's this way and why you believe it full stop, every inch of the movie because it just feels so mundane at times. And also just his psychology is you can totally trace the path of where he's going. [00:50:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's also the fact that it's like, and this is something that Joker can't fully help. And I think the film does its best to try to capture the seventies in a way, in a well enough way. But like, there is a bit of a romanticization of the seventies. Even though it's dirty in Joker, it's supposed to be dirty and grungy, but there it still feels like a seventies homage, kind of romanticized version of New York. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I think Joker is almost more, more than romanticizing the actual time period of the seventies. It's romanticizing like the new wave of cinema in the seventies. What this movie is, it's, you know, the Brian de Palma, Scorsese, all of that kind of transgressive film. And yeah, I think Joker's a gorgeous movie, but yeah, definitely on a more any more, I don't know, in a more manufactured way because it is deliberately trying to evoke the same sensibilities as these movies. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And yeah, if anything, again, if it's, this was not meant to be a trilogy that is bashing 20 nineteen's Joker. No, but we will. But we just, we call it how it is in terms of the comparisons between these films. [00:52:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's, the premise of the trilogy is basically to compare them. And unfortunately for Joker, especially with these latter two, it's just not going to be a favorable comparison because these movies are masterpieces. [00:52:24] Speaker A: They're masterpieces. And clearly Phillips really hasn't, he doesn't hide the inspirations and influences. [00:52:31] Speaker B: I can at least give him credit for that. He is not sheepish about his inspiration. [00:52:36] Speaker A: But I will give Joker credit for this. The score in the film is unique to itself and definitely deserved the Oscar. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:52:44] Speaker A: That it won for that movie. So that's definitely something I give for Joker. I'm trying to be nice to Joker before we get to King of comedy because the crazy thing is, is hilariously enough, you know, in honor of Joker. Full of do mouth full of do mouth, full of do. That's a lot of do. Of course, this was going to be the film that makes me go, all right, I guess it's time to watch King of comedy in full now because after years of, you know, being like, oh, you like taxi driver? Well, most people have never seen King of comedy, and it's like, okay, that's what. What's it about? And just the premise alone feels very much like, oh, yeah. I could see if Joker took some. Some inspiration from this because it's Scorsese. Scorsese has so many great films under his belt that are not considered classics or even phenomenal films until years after they come out. Yeah, that's. That's the blessing and the curse of being Scorsese is having so many good fucking films in your filmography that they just kind of go unnoticed compared to the other films for a while. [00:53:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, every time he makes a movie, it's scrutinized as it naturally would be because it's coming from him. [00:54:00] Speaker A: Yeah, but holy shit, the king of comedy. [00:54:05] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's. It's funny because when I saw Joker, I had not seen king of comedy. I did not see king of comedy until last year. [00:54:17] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:54:18] Speaker B: For the first time? Yeah, I watched it. I watched through not all of, but the vast majority of Scorsese's filmography ahead of killers of the Flower Moon. Cause I was just like, I have a lot of Scorsese movies as blind spots I've never seen. I should see. So I went through, watched a bunch of them, including King of comedy. I remember when Joker came out. Yes. A lot of people were saying, this movie rips off taxi driver and king of comedy. But, like, the vast majority of the commentary, I think, was geared more toward taxi driver. I'm guessing that's because that's the move. That's the one of these two that most people have seen. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:55:01] Speaker B: However, after seeing King of comedy, I was like, oh, no, wait a second. This might actually be more what Joker is lifting from, at least story wise. I think the best or the most succinct way I can put it is if we're explaining the lineage of these movies to Joker, Joker is king of comedy. If Travis Bickle is the main character. [00:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah. When you. When you texted that to me, I was like, yeah, a hundred percent. There's not even. There's no lie. There's no lie there. Like, in genuine, like, if you made. Because again, another thing about the starter pack idea is that I think in your head, inception wise, you thought of, like, the standard meme. [00:55:54] Speaker B: Yes. Meme, where it's just clip, like, pngs of different things. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And literally what that would look like in a visual sense for a Joker, starter pack would literally be the man who laughs poster, very small on the page. [00:56:10] Speaker B: Maybe a little Connor in the corner. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely just Travis Bickle. Both a picture of him with his hair and of course, his iconic mohawk. [00:56:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:20] Speaker A: And then the rest of the fucking collage would just be shots from can't comedy characters from comedy. I mean, it's, it is fascinating to watch the king of comedy after, like thinking, oh, Joker is taxi driver for babies. And thought that was going to be enough for my brain just for the future. And then watch king of comedy and go, oh, no. It almost feels like kind of like plagiarism at a little boy. It is kind of shocking just how just, I mean, again, it's, of course, if you're a fan, there is nothing wrong with taking inspiration from other works, especially in the same field. I mean, it's hard not to, especially in different eras where it's like you're always gonna have a favorite. If you're in the film industry, you're gonna have a favorite director, favorite writer, actor. It's no surprise. And of course with Todd Phillips, the man has been in the industry long enough and has clearly wanted to do something like Joker for. Because really he, the thing he did before Joker, if I'm pretty sure, was like War dogs, which, yeah, he was. [00:57:27] Speaker B: Mostly known as like a studio comedy guy. I mean, he was the hangover guy. Due date, which, yes, I will say another blatant ripoff. That movie is just planes, trains and automobiles. And I like that movie, but it is just planes, trains and automobiles done over again. [00:57:46] Speaker A: If I. Maybe this is not the best place to say that I've never seen plain strings and automobiles all the way through, but that is I've seen, again, another. [00:57:57] Speaker B: I think that's one of Adam's favorite movies. [00:57:59] Speaker A: Oh, don't worry. I told him that at one point. [00:58:02] Speaker B: As well as that, I was offended. [00:58:03] Speaker A: I hadn't seen Uncle Buck. He was shocked. [00:58:06] Speaker B: Oh, I've never seen Uncle Buck. [00:58:07] Speaker A: Oh, don't tell him. [00:58:10] Speaker B: I hope that. What's not listening. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Classic. Yeah, I mean, it is, but it's like, it's. Again, it is. Yeah. Phillips's whole thing has been involved. I think he also did road trip or he was involved in that. Like he's, he's been in the industry long enough that he has hits under his belt. I mean, he has his own fucking trilogy outside of this trilogy based off of Joker in a way. [00:58:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:39] Speaker A: With the hangover films that are all massive successes at the time they came out. I know at this point we look back on them and they haven't aged well. They haven't old school, too. He also did old school. That makes a lot of sense. [00:58:52] Speaker B: And the Starsky and Hutch remake thing. [00:58:56] Speaker A: Oh, of course, he did not even know that. But that makes a lot of sense, honestly. But what I'm trying to basically say in a roundabout way is just, he is. Now, I'm not outright saying that he is plagiarizing the king of comedy, but at the same time, it is hard not to watch the king of comedy. And very similarly to Taxi Driver with Joker. Watch the film and go, my God, there's so much here that is in Joker, but it's so much more interesting because, again, Scorsese doesn't hold back the. Here's the thing, listeners. I don't know if I've said this on the pod, and I bet this might come back and bite me in the ass, but I have hard, secondhand embarrassment issues when I watch media. It makes me incessantly uncomfortable. I will probably be honest that even though my family wasn't a huge, the office watchers when we were growing up, I think what I heard and saw, just how embarrassing that show could be, it kind of pushed me away. Like, I've. I heard about Scott's tots and I had no interest. [01:00:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:04] Speaker A: Like, stuff like that, where it's like, even little things. Because I just get, if I get super invested in a story and I want certain characters to not be pieces of shit or be like, you know, I want them to succeed and they just make the worst decisions, I get very uncomfortable, and I can't control that. And in taxi driver, there's only one scene that does that to me, and that is the. There's the porno theater scene where he takes Sybil shepherd. [01:00:32] Speaker B: Right, right. [01:00:33] Speaker A: In King of comedy. Like, the first 30 to 35 minutes, if not the first hour of the film, is just filled with so many scenes where De Niro, in my opinion, I don't. This is maybe a hot take. I don't know. I think he might be better in this than he is in taxi driver. [01:00:53] Speaker B: It's certainly a more. It's further out of his wheelhouse. Like, yes, it's a bigger stretch. I was just talking to Mitch Ringenberg of the Midwest Film journal the other day about King of comedy because he introduced me to Cape Fear, another Scorsese film. Another Scorsese, also a remake of, like a fifties film, I think also Robert De Niro doing something wildly different than his usual schtick. And I think this and Cape Fear are probably his wildest performances that I've ever seen. Just because they are so. It's not. It's like you look. You totally lose De Niro in it. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah. He is Rupert Pupkin. [01:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah. The creepiest De Niro has ever been is this movie. [01:01:49] Speaker A: Just the most pathetic I think, I've ever seen that man perform. And he knocks it out of the fucking park, out the gate. And honest to God, it's hard. I mean, it. I don't know if it's my favorite de niro performance. Not because I don't think it's worried worthy of that, but it just could be recency bias. But, like, just the range on him. Like, he's always had that range. But it's like, with taxi driver, it's like, can de Niro do subtlety? The answer is italicized, bold uppercase. Yes. [01:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:27] Speaker A: I mean, of course that man could. [01:02:28] Speaker B: Do that, I think. But nowadays we look at Robert De Niro and we see, like, meet the Fockers and. Or, you know, parents and whatever. It's called fight night or whatever. And the intern and things like that. And we just kind of see De Niro do sort of the. The same thing. The stoic, kind of grumpy tough guy in his older years. But, you know, it's. You watch this and it's like. I totally get why in, like, the seventies and eighties, he was, like, the hottest thing because, you know, I mean, he does taxi driver and then he does 1980s raging bull. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:10] Speaker B: And this is two years later, just like three very different performances. [01:03:14] Speaker A: And then I think in between taxi driver and this. Or maybe just after Kane comedy. New York, New York. [01:03:20] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [01:03:21] Speaker A: Which is where he plays a jazz saxophone in a musical with, I believe, Liza Minnelli. [01:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:27] Speaker A: Which is just. I just watching. Yeah. And again, it's understandable, too, as a. In a devil's advocate way, this is a much bigger performance from De Niro than we've ever gotten before. But at the same time, the way that man sells the autograph book scene. [01:03:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:03:47] Speaker A: Where it's just like, who is that last autograph? Probably gonna be the most famous one. It is just. It was like, I can't believe you got me. I can't believe this whole time I've just been, like, uncomfortably waiting for the scene to end and that you still find ways to make it worse. And yet it's so funny. And it. Again, the movie is fucking hilarious. It is very well done, but not in a. Not in a screwball, not in a hangover sense. It is like. It is very much a Scorsese. Like, the little moments in Goodfellas that were funny. [01:04:21] Speaker B: Kind of like, kind of this whole movie. [01:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Kind of expended upon. [01:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I will say, like, early on, it is a little bit more, like, obviously funny or, like, slapsticky funny. And then as the movie goes on and you kind of realize the person that Rupert pumpkin really is, it becomes more bleakly funny. [01:04:42] Speaker A: There's even a scene, like, I think, halfway through where he barges it into an office and there's a shot of him. It just looks like a Benny hill shot where he goes down one line and then, like, a bunch of cops, like, a bunch of guards are trying to get him to. And then he goes the other way. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Comes back out the other way. Yeah. [01:04:58] Speaker A: And it's just like you. It is funny to think again, like, with house. Scorsese has been so ingrained in our pop culture senses of, like, his crime dramas. [01:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:10] Speaker A: His gangsta movies, his goodfellas, his casinos, mob flicks, his deposits. I mean, even killers of the flower moon has elements. [01:05:19] Speaker B: It's an organized crime thriller, and it's. [01:05:22] Speaker A: Just watching the king of comedy is probably one of the most straightforward movies he's made. And, like, the. What makes it so perfect is the character dynamics as well as the performances and how it's shot again, like, this film, because I was like, I had to check for. I always like when I'm curious with older films being like, how much would this movie be worth today? Like, because King of comedy in 1982 was worth $19 million at the time with inflation. I need to double check this, but I'm. It's like 65. [01:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:58] Speaker A: So it is about as much as Joker costs around for 2019 numbers in terms of that. And it is just, there are so many shots. The creativity that is just ingrained in this movie where it's, like, not worried about an aesthetic because, again, it's just. It's just modern day. It's just the early eighties, but yet there is still, like, his basement is so stylized. Jerry's. Jerry's offices look like something out of a. Out of a fucking Lucas. [01:06:33] Speaker B: Like. [01:06:35] Speaker A: It comes out of, like, a Sci-Fi film from the seventies almost like something out of, like, clockwork orange. [01:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Very, very futurist bright. [01:06:45] Speaker A: Very, like, there's, like, the receptionist desk is in, like, the middle of the room and, like. [01:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's this little capsule. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's just. And there's even. But how the film shows Rupert's mental state and how it deteriorates and how it shows visually without give without basically giving it to you on a silver platter. Just how he sees himself as well as how he sees his relationships with other people and how that clouds, how those projections cloud the reality of the situation leads to some phenomenal moments in that early. Especially, like, editing wise and cinematography wise early on. I think my favorite shot is probably after he filmed. He tapes his opening and a hard cuts to him pretending like he's in front of an audience to the. To the picture of the audience that is, like, plastered on the wall in Jerry's office. Like, it's like a hallway shot at the very end of the hallway. It's just like this big audience, like, black and white picture. And he's just, like, doing the bit in his head to that wall and it's, like, so well done. It also is like this. I think this shows to Andy a lot of the times how much I'm enjoying a watch of a movie. Because while I was watching the movie I was basically live texting him as we were coming. And, like, I. At one point, there's a scene in the movie where I thought it was entirely a dream sequence and it was entirely in reality. [01:08:26] Speaker B: And it just broke the golf house scene. Right. [01:08:31] Speaker A: Summer house. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Summer house. [01:08:33] Speaker A: Because, like, he. It's not even just him. It's. He brings someone else with him. So his. He brings someone else into a madness. [01:08:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's also. I get that too. I think I feel like. I felt probably the same way at first when I first watched it because the movie is constantly doing these kinds of insert scenes of Rupert's sort of delusions or his daydreams of, like, being friends with Jerry Langford and being a famous comedian and things like that. So then when you get to that scene, it's like, oh, okay. He's imagining that he got invited for a lunch party at Jerry's house. And it's like, no, he's breaking and entering. [01:09:16] Speaker A: He basically strong armed Jerry's waiters and, like, butlers. [01:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah, his butler. [01:09:24] Speaker A: That poor man. Jerry's just yelling at him like, you just let him in. He's like, look at me. You want me to fight? I think it's so funny. It is. And again, to get to tie this back into the starter pack of it all another thing that makes king of comedy so much more fascinating than, like, Joker's interpretation of events in king of comedy is that in Joker, it will. Let me first say in King of comedy, the talk show host that is, of course, the main, you know, focus of Rupert, as well as the. The man that he wants to be the most. As well as not only be the most, but basically uproot and take over the most of anything. And that is played by Jerry Lewis. [01:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:09] Speaker A: As Jerry Langford, who has so many phenomenal moments of facial recognition. Just. Just so many good faces in this movie that I just want all of them. I want them plastered all over a wall. [01:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:24] Speaker A: Almost like. Almost like a Rupert soul. Like a spirit board. Just. [01:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Jerry. Jerry Lewis is genuinely incredible in this movie. And I think, for me, a lot of it is. I think it boils down to, like, his. The way he approaches these absurd circumstances is so specific and opposite of what I would expect a movie character in these situations to react like. Because Rupert Pupkin is obviously this unhinged, crazy person who keeps invading Jerry Langford's private life in extreme ways. And in, like any other movie, Jerry's character would be, like, screaming at the top of his lungs, like, you know, brazenly threatening violence and things like that. And just like, you know, screaming, get me away from him. And stuff like that. But Jerry Lewis plays it so, like, low key. And so, like, he's dealt with this so many times, and he's just fucking tired of it. It's like he knows he can't. He can't match the level of the crazy person because if he does, it'll just get worse. So he's just, like, tapping his foot and, like, I need you to get out of here. Like, please. It's so good because, like, even as the movie really ramps up and gets insane, like, I didn't expect this movie to go to the lengths that it does. [01:11:59] Speaker A: No, yeah, absolutely. [01:12:00] Speaker B: He still remains very even keel. He's obviously in distress. But it's like, this is just how this man, a veteran entertainer, who has spent day in and day out in the absurdity, you know, business of television, this is how he responds to absurdity. [01:12:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It makes all the more sense when you start to see more of Jerry's producers, writers. His lawyer, at a certain point, shows up when they're trying to figure out the situation with him and the way they talk about how they're going to handle the situation and how his lawyer is suing, saying he's going to sue them while they're trying to help them. He's going to sue the FBI. Yeah. It's. There are so many moments where you can kind just see in a late. In a glance from Louis just what Langford is thinking. [01:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:53] Speaker A: Out loud, if you pay enough attention, which is one of the best parts about Rupert. And then another. And then another stalker that Jerry has. Masha, the. The woman. Oh, love letter. And what? [01:13:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:09] Speaker A: You have two stalkers. One who is basically in love with him professionally and wants to use him not only as a mentor, but as a stepping stone for his own comedy career. And then you have another person who genuinely thinks they're in love with him and wants to fuck him and wants to be with him for the rest of his life. And Jerry is not married. And so it's like, it had an angle of his, like, wife being like, no, he's a single man who is just. He's old. He's tired. He just is not. He is sick of all this bullshit. And it's fascinating, like you said, just to see how he responds to the craziness. And there's even moments where it's like, I'm pretty sure. And again, I've only seen it once all the way through now, but it's like, I'm pretty sure he knows that gun isn't real from the very beginning, but he's more just, like, being as safe as can be. [01:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:04] Speaker A: And then, like, ultimately, when it gets to a point, like, why he finally gets out of there is that he's just. He's just sick of the charade. He's like, I just. Because what he finds out is, like, especially what's so, so fascinating. Especially, like, look, watching it now is the idea of, like, fan culture and fanaticism in a. And now a real term for it. Like, a parasol. Parasocial relationship. [01:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:26] Speaker A: With a man they don't even really know or have only met in person once or twice. It is fascinating to see, when they finally get their chance to do it, how it actually become, like, what the reality of that is, where it's like, they don't really want to know Jerry. They don't even really want to be, like, friends with him or lovers. [01:14:46] Speaker B: They want what Jerry has. [01:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Or what Jerry can give them in terms of, like. Yeah. And it's also. Yeah. It is. Because the thing that I love about Masha is the fact that, like, she could go that next step that is even darker in terms of, like, trying to be more sexual towards Jerry, but doesn't. And I think that clearly shows just the wall that, thankfully, she won't. She's the line that she won't step over, but also just how, like, she is still aware in her brain just how wrong this kind of is. And at least with Rupert, what makes him, I think, go so far over the edges, I think he's pretty well aware, too, where this is gonna go for him. And the fact that makes it even scary is that he's fine with where he gets. [01:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:36] Speaker A: And the thing that I, you know, shows that Joker clearly loves the. Todd Phillips, loves this movie, and used it for inspiration for Joker, but didn't go the same distance that Scorsese goes with the film is that there is a Jerry Langford character in Joker, and it's played by Robert, which is already pretty fucking clear as to why Moray. Yes. But the thing that's so fascinating is that in the king of comedy, there is genuinely no reason for Rupert to be mad at Jerry because Jerry has no obligation to help Rupert and yet is still, honestly, is doing way more. [01:16:21] Speaker B: Yeah. He's way, way more polite and reserved than he would have the right to be. [01:16:27] Speaker A: And while, yes, he is talking to Rupert mainly through his assistant, he's a busy guy that runs it in today. Like, he runs a Tonight show every day, every night. [01:16:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:36] Speaker A: Like, he's a busy guy. There's always so much he can do, but he's, like, willing. Because I thought in my head, it's going to be at a certain point where he's going to lie to Rupert. And. No, in the genius of Scorsese is that Rupert genuinely gets helped by Jerry in terms of tips, in terms of, like, a certain point, Jerry's assistant tells him, like, try out these clubs, get a steady job there. And then if it goes well, like, we'll send someone to watch you. [01:17:03] Speaker B: Jerry really doesn't do anything wrong. Yeah. [01:17:07] Speaker A: Jerry out. Yeah. Outright. [01:17:09] Speaker B: It's not like Rupert is, you know, rejected by the system. He really doesn't even try to, you know, play the game. [01:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:19] Speaker B: He just skip all the steps. [01:17:21] Speaker A: And even though he broke into his limo and basically strong armed him to listen to his, like, his plea of, like, please put me on the show. It's what I need. It's what I deserve. Yada, yada. Like, Jerry's still nice to him. He. There's no reason for Rupert to be the way that he is, other than the fact that he is selfish, he is crazy, and he has a delusion of how his. He basically has a version, a projection of his life that he knows is, quote unquote knows it should go that way. [01:17:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:54] Speaker A: And he'll do whatever it takes to hit those spots. In Joker, there is kind of a similar relation, parasocial relationship with Arthur and Murray. The only difference is, is that Murray embarrasses Arthur in the film without him, without even contacting Arthur, without even trying to figure out, basically, Murray does a mean thing. He kind of does a bad thing he shouldn't have because he's punching down. Arguably, there's no reason for a talk show host at his level to punch down at a guyenne who has a shitty, tight five. [01:18:31] Speaker B: Right. [01:18:32] Speaker A: Comedy club. Especially when you don't ask. He doesn't ask for permission. He doesn't try to get in contact. They genuinely find a random tape and go get a look at this idiot. Like, well, no shit. Arthur's gonna not like him and have a genuine reason to. [01:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:47] Speaker A: But then it makes it so much more, like, generic. [01:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that goes back to what I was saying during Taxi driver, is that Joker reframes all of the scenarios from these two movies in a way such that Arthur is right, or if not right, you get it. Like, he's kind of justified. He's sympathetic in the scenario. [01:19:17] Speaker A: To quote Arthur, you get what you fucking deserve. [01:19:19] Speaker B: Yeah, because everybody who he deals with is a piece of shit. Like, yeah, like, king of comedy would be such an easier, more digestible movie if Jerry was nothing but an asshole to Rupert the whole time. But that's not how it works, and that's not what the movie is doing. And that's why Rupert is such a frustrating but compelling character, because he's just kind of, you know, he's. He's throwing good grace back at the people who give it to him. [01:19:57] Speaker A: Yeah, he's. He is basically calling. He's calling himself a star in front of people that could make him a star or people that he could actually have genuine relationships with and be like, oh, you should want a relationship with me automatically because I will be famous one day. It is just, like, nothing. Listening to the people around him. [01:20:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:22] Speaker A: When they're telling him, like, you either. It's like, can you please leave me alone? Or you have talent. Just like, you know how many people say that same shit to me, like, every week? Like, yeah, show me something new. [01:20:36] Speaker B: And, well, it's the. Yeah, it's. It's Rupert's delusion that he's somehow special. It's like, okay, even if you do have talented. I got a million people on the phone with talent who want to be on the show, and I got to tell all of them no because of one reason or another. So you at least got to do the due diligence, Rupert, and get out there and get experience and sharpen yourself. And Rupert just doesn't want to hear any of that. He just wants to be famous. [01:21:06] Speaker A: But what's also phenomenal, too. And I think it's something that, like, taxi driver doesn't have. Understandably so. But I think this movie has in spades towards the end. And I think makes it. Even makes it scarier to think about is the fact that, like, in this film, Rupert gets what he wants because he genuinely. Despite the fact that he is not doing this the right way, despite the fact that he's doing some bad things and has some delusions that are ultimately hurting his rise to the top that he wants when he's able to shine, he has the confidence and the charisma to basically work his way into actually making his set work. [01:21:53] Speaker B: Like, genuinely, like, I mean, I would. Yeah, I was thinking about that while I was watching because he eventually, like, he gets on the Jerry Langford show and does his kind of. His whatever it is, five minutes or whatever, and it's not like, good comedy, but you can understand the fascination because of how into it he is. And. Yeah, like you said, ultimately, he does get what he wants because he gets to do that. And then the fiasco around it, the scandal of the many crimes he committed in order to make that happen then, in turn, makes him famous. [01:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I expected, from the very little I actually seen of the film going into it, I expected him. The film to end on him doing his set and the reality sets in that he is not ready. [01:22:53] Speaker B: Yes. Not good. [01:22:55] Speaker A: That people are going to boo him and that this whole time he is basically fought, kidnapped and basically burned bridges with people that ultimately were just giving him the graces of trying to say, like, you're not ready right now, which means you're not good. But what instead happens is that people actually, like, he gets. He basically is giving chuckle worthy comedy with such confidence and charisma that he's getting big laughs out of the audience for it. I mean, I don't think it's any funnier in terms of cameos to have basically a scene where a producer is reading off. No, it's the. I. I think one of the guys. One of Jerry's main guys that I think introduces the announcer for Jerry. [01:23:42] Speaker B: You're talking about Ed Hurley. [01:23:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Reading the joke where he, like, had to kill all of his writing staff for this. [01:23:48] Speaker B: Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:23:50] Speaker A: And Martin Scorsese, who plays a cameo as the episode's director, like, laughs. That's pretty funny. [01:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:57] Speaker A: And it's, like, not in a way where it's like the film is trying to force you into thinking it's not funny. Honestly, that joke is probably the funniest joke in his whole bit. And it's just. It's just fascinating to see that, like, again, Scorsese is not fully demonizing or villainizing these characters, nor are they busy putting them up on a pedestal to be, like, you should strive to be these guys. It is very much the vibe of just following a character and being like, look how scary it can kind of be when you run into somebody who has the confidence, charisma, and enough of the talent to kind of just wiggle his way into something, make the rest. [01:24:38] Speaker B: Of the way once he does a bunch of illegal shit. [01:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And the fact that he's, like, he's able to convince the FBI to, like, go get a beer with him to a degree or, like, go to a bar nearby or, like, the fact that, like, he's just. The confidence that he has in the back half is, again, doesn't really have it for most of the film. But I think it's mainly because I think in his brain and his delusion, he is saving all of his strength and talent and confidence for the camera in his brain. And it comes to a finale that I would say is at times almost as shocking as taxi drivers ending without any of the blood. [01:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, it is very different, but. But equally kind of this kind of thing. [01:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah. This feels like, honestly, a spiritual sequel. [01:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it does. I mean, it's. It's dealing in a lot of the same, you know, social themes in terms of, like, you know, outcasts and how. How the media responds to events like these, because both Travis and I, Rupert, act out in a very big public way that gets a lot of media attention, and they end up being glorified for it by the media. And I think that's also, obviously, that's what makes both of these films kind of natural to be blended together for a film like Joker, because they are dealing in a lot of the same ideas. And Joker also gets glorified at the end of his endeavor. [01:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the difference is, is, of course, the fact that the film. [01:26:24] Speaker B: Itself is also glorifying him. [01:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And also the fact that it doesn't feel like the Joker wants to end in a way. In an ambiguous way. [01:26:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:33] Speaker A: Where it's like, with Scorsese, it's like. It's. It's kind of fun if we end it on a note that is kind of uncertain. [01:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it lends itself to the discomfort that these movies are dealing in to begin with leaves you sitting in that feeling of like, well, what do I make of that? [01:26:53] Speaker A: And it just really depends on the viewer. And I mean, that's the king of comedy. That's what's so fascinating about going back to these three films. And just like, I either reintroducing myself to at least taxi driver or just introducing myself to the other two is just the fact that it's like, it is. We are not talking about the faults of 20 nine's, 20 nineteen's Joker in a way where we're saying, like, we don't understand why it was popular as it was or why we don't understand why it got the awards that it did. Because to be honest, I understand why it made the money that it did. Well, yeah, we understand why it won the awards that it did because again, like, Joaquin literally just became a skeleton and put his whole ass and heart into Arthur Fleck. So much so that he literally was able, he wanted to do it again when they offer him to do it again. And it's, and the fact that the score is phenomenal in Joker and the fact that the film looks good and it has a talented cast behind it. [01:28:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I'll say this about the Joker and the kind of public, you know, discourse on it or response to it is like, I think it won the awards that it deserved. And, you know, I think the greatest successes of that movie are largely aesthetic in nature. I mean, Joaquin Phoenix's performance, great score, great cinematography, great. But like, yeah, when you kind of look beneath that, it's like, oh, okay. So we're kind of just doing watered down versions of two other movies. [01:28:44] Speaker A: It's like, it's like a shrink wrap version of both taxi driver. It's like a two. It's like a two pack of taxi driver. [01:28:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:52] Speaker A: And king of comedy on dvd with just a picture of Connor Veidta and just like, and it is, it is what it is like. And genuinely like, it's fast. I'm genuinely curious to see how Joker two is gonna end up, especially since even before it's released, the reviews that have been coming out have painted it in a very not fully divisive way. [01:29:18] Speaker B: But there clearly is, people are certainly more all over the map for this than for the first one. I'm really curious. I'm curious, especially from what little. Cause I haven't read a ton, but from what little I know about Joker two, I'm curious to see how the, like the comic book fan side of Joker's biggest supporters feels about this movie because it feels like they're not gonna be thrilled. [01:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I like. I genuinely like the suit. [01:29:52] Speaker B: Like, the comic book nerds who were like, jokers. One of the greatest movies of time. [01:29:56] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. People that have probably would be shocked watching taxi driver in the can. Comedy realizing, wait, I've seen this before. [01:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:05] Speaker A: Just not as. Not as well done, but, yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's fascinating to think that, like, when it came to Joker two, like, all the press surrounding it, like, the lady Gaga of it all, as well as the trailers for it, it literally was like a few weeks ago, probably was a month by this point, where they released, like, an official still of Harvey Dent. [01:30:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:30:29] Speaker A: Like a young Harvey Dent in the film. And I went, oh, that's right. [01:30:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, he's in this. [01:30:33] Speaker A: This is. This is based off of a Batman film. [01:30:35] Speaker B: Batman. [01:30:35] Speaker A: Like, it's so dis. It's just disconnected enough. [01:30:40] Speaker B: Do you think we'll get another young Bruce cameo? [01:30:43] Speaker A: I would hope not. But I will say, like, weirdly enough, I think a blessing and a curse of Joker itself is, like, the least taxi driver and king of comedy of it. Niss comes from when it does focus on, like, when it's doing the Thomas Wayne. [01:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:31:03] Speaker A: The Thomas Wayne of it all. And, like, Arkham were talking about, like, just Gotham in general and, like, going in angle with the Joker's backstory that at the time, watching it, I was like, wow. In an era where, like, people act like they're gonna burn down a bridge if you don't follow a certain writer's comic to a t, it's fascinating to see them do a origin story for a character that is notorious for having multiple origin stories and do it in a way that could honestly be, if not handled correctly, one of the worst origins for him, and they find it to do in a way where it's like, oh, no, it's. It's not gonna be as kind of bad as it could have been. [01:31:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:48] Speaker A: It's still gonna have some interesting elements to it. And if anything, I don't. I couldn't call Joker boring. And I think that's a good thing for the film. And I do agree with Andy that it's visually appealing and with its talented ensemble and its score and its cinematography, definitely worth the watch. It's just once you watch it, whether I would probably say if for some reason you've listened to this whole podcast and haven't seen any of these movies. Well, probably the easiest thing to do is to maybe watch Joker as clear as you can and then, like, go through the starter pack and then you'll understand the deconstruction we have with it now all these years later. [01:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think in this case, obviously, the kind of comparative nature of this starter pack is. Yeah. Resulting in a little bit more critical perspective of Joker of the film question. But I think I like the idea of this kind of trilogy because I think we could find other movies at certain points for which we could, like, pick three movies that clearly had a lot of inspiration for it and just kind of dissect that without it being something where it's like, it's a shame that the movie's not as good as these three movies, isn't it? So I think it's a cool. I think we've found ourselves an interesting premise for a trilogy. [01:33:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And to be. I mean, if anything, this is. I. Even with my issues with Joker, I'm gonna rewatch it for full. It's been enough time, whether I like it less or not. Like, yeah, it is getting me to go back and watch the movie just to not even. Just compare and contrast, but just like, after all this time, so you can. [01:33:38] Speaker B: Clap and point at all the taxi driver and king of comedy. [01:33:42] Speaker A: I was thinking more the fact, like, oh, that's why Rupert. That's why ruperthe, like, pumpkin dances down the stairs. [01:33:49] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [01:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, just, you know, the classic comedies, which I gotta say, hey, at least give Joker that they don't rip the date, they don't rib the dancing stairs scene from either one of us. [01:34:02] Speaker B: Wholly original. Bravo, Phillips. [01:34:05] Speaker A: And guess what? They're gonna redo that. [01:34:07] Speaker B: And Joker. They're gonna double it up with Gaga. [01:34:10] Speaker A: But, yeah, that's the Joker starter pack. Fun. Dive into one of the most profitable r rated films of all time and talking about the films that inspired it and, of course, gave it maybe a little too much influence, depending on where you come from. But you know what? It's October. This is our first trilogy of the month. But, you know, we need to have a horror trilogy, something spooky on top of something spooky. And maybe not even ghosts, maybe not even demons. Something a little hairy, hairier, or just a classic monster that doesn't get a lot of love. Unless it's twilight, unfortunately. But, you know, it is what it is. Hey, popular is popular, but it's, you know, in not really an honor because the film doesn't come out until January. [01:35:07] Speaker B: It was originally timed up when we came up with this. [01:35:11] Speaker A: But we thought it would be a lot of fun in honor of Halloween in October, to talk about three films that tackle the same story but in different decades, as well as really try to capture in the, I believe, the thirties, the eighties, as well as the early 2010 SDHE, or maybe even the nineties. I think it's late eighties. Early nineties is our second film. [01:35:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:41] Speaker A: We are covering. Because we've done this before, we are covering an odd trilogy that is just three different films about the same story. And we're calling it the Odd Wolf man trilogy. [01:35:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:52] Speaker A: Which is basically, we are taking the universal classic monster film, the Wolf man. We are doing the Jack Nicholson interpretation with Wolfenhe, and then we're going to be doing the Benicio del Toro film from 2010 that Andy likes to call the Wolfman. [01:36:10] Speaker B: Well, it's distinguishing distinction there. And also Wolfman. The original Wolf man is three words, the Wolf man and the 2010 is the Wolfman. So that's how I like to. That's how I like to distract. [01:36:28] Speaker A: They could have put a hyphen, but. [01:36:29] Speaker B: They decided they did. [01:36:30] Speaker A: Yeah, but, yeah, I have. And. [01:36:33] Speaker B: Oh, well. And we were referring. What we were referring to earlier as the tie in. They're making a new Wolf man movie, in case you weren't aware, which was originally set for this October or maybe even sooner than that. I know at one point it was set for this October. It is now set for, like, January of next year. [01:36:51] Speaker A: But, yeah, the man. Yeah, the man behind the invisible Mandev remake with Elizabeth Moss, Lee Whannell. He is doing a wolf man remake with Christopher Abbott in Julia Garner. Or is it Julie Garner? [01:37:06] Speaker B: Julia Garner. [01:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah, Julia Garner from Ozark. And it, you know, we were excited when we heard about this, and we were just as shocked as everyone else when they just dropped a trailer a few weeks back and said, by the way, January. Because, yeah, originally when we put this in, we thought, oh, this would be really fun. And it's still gonna be fun because I am a sucker for werewolves. I really, honestly, I love the original Wolf man. [01:37:33] Speaker B: Oh, you've seen the original? You've seen the original. [01:37:34] Speaker A: I've seen the long Cheney Junior. I've seen the original film of all the. Of the universal classic monster films. I've seen Frankenstein and I've seen the Wolf man. [01:37:44] Speaker B: Ooh, you've never seen the Invisible Man? [01:37:46] Speaker A: I have not seen the original man. [01:37:47] Speaker B: We'll have to do an odd invisible man trilogy. [01:37:51] Speaker A: Is it gonna be hollow man? [01:37:52] Speaker B: Oh, we gotta put Hollow man in there. And maybe. Maybe we do the. The Elizabeth or Moss version. Yeah, the Elizabeth Moss version. [01:38:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I own all the universal. I've been wanting to just like, dive deep, but like, you know, it's. The season's always been busy for me. And also when we are prepping for not only just prepping for the show, but also just new releases, trying to find the time. [01:38:17] Speaker B: So much shit to work. [01:38:19] Speaker A: So much. I mean, again, try to find time to see fucking joker two this time. But yeah. On October 19, we are going to be covering the odd Wolf man trilogy. But until then, I'm Logan Somas. [01:38:32] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:38:34] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.