Episode 98: The Sonic the Hedgehog Trilogy (with Grant)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hello everyone and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan so. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:24] Speaker A: And on Odd Trilogies, we take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, thematic elements, or even numerical order, and we talk about the good, the bad and the weird surrounding each film. And today we're gonna have to speed through this trilogy because it's hard not to talk about these films without wanting to go fast because you don't know. Yeah, you just gotta go fast because hilariously enough, in the span of four years, this franchise started with a film that pretty much, I think no one expected to be as much of a hit as it is now. Two to the degree where now we are definitely getting more than what we're getting trilogy wise today. And that is the Sonic Trilogy. Today we are talking about 2020, Sonic the Hedgehog, 2022, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and then 2024's Sonic the Hedgehog 3. Pretty easy numerical order kind of names, you know, not anything too crazy. Maybe the seventh film, they'll maybe go to subtitles. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Let's change it up. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe Sonic Reckoning, they'll do Sonic and the Secret Rings as the. But before we speed off talking about these three films, we wanted to, you know, introduce our guest who honestly is the reason why we are doing this episode today. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Because they are a huge. He's a huge Sonic fan. He basically at a certain point we kind of be. I think either one of us talked to you kind of at different times and you just basically said if you're going to do a Sonic trilogy, it better be with me. And what better way to introduce you than to talk about our number one Sonic fan and probably both Andy and I's lives. Grant, thank you for joining the podcast. Tell us more about yourself. [00:02:12] Speaker C: It's great to be here. So I to give a little quick understanding of why I love sonic. So in 2001 I had a Nintendo Gamecube. I was a six year old and I was super into video games, but most of them were, you know, it was Mario, he was Luigi screaming at the camera and they say lets a go. And then Sonic Adventure 2 comes out and it has the most melodramatic dialogue I've seen in like a video game at the time. And I was like, damn, you can be the bad guys. And the bad guys and the heroes team up at the end. This shit rocks. And so ever since then I was like, Sonic is the pinnacle of storytelling. And obviously that's not true, but I. I loved the weird little lore bits that they dropped in Sonic Adventure 2 as a kid as I grew up. Obviously, you know, you grow out of some things. Not. I've always loved Sonic Adventure 2, but I didn't stick with it. And then in college, me and my buddy that I also, I host my podcast with Brantley, we started trying to go through every single Sonic game we could. And I've beaten most the mainline games and most of the side games too. And so I fucking love Sonic. I think that it's, it's cast of characters are goofy enough that you can, you know, find someone that's weird as hell that you love. But also there's some interesting story choices that I think make it exciting and both for kids and a little bit not, not necessarily for adults, but enough to make it so you're at least interested. And so I'm really excited to talk about these films. [00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, just. This is gonna seem silly for me to say this out loud because probably if you're listening to this episode, you know the history behind the blue blur. But in case you don't know, I mean, Sonic the Hedgehog is a video game character of a franchise that has existed for 30 plus years. Basically it started in 1990 with the Sega Master System as well as the Sega Genesis, as the game that launched the Genesis into the stratosphere as the first console to really give Nintendo a run for their money in the 90s. And then alternately when it went from 2D to 3D. While Mario had a pretty smooth transition for the next 15 to so years, Sonic's 2D to 3D transition led to some bold, brash, and ultimately for a lot of chances, bad decisions in terms of what led Sonic as a franchise, as a icon in the public cult, in pop culture. Because he went from the guy that most people would say is a better character than Mario is, to being in a point where if you are a Sonic fan today, which Grant can probably attest, it really can just vary in terms of what kind of Sonic fan you are today. [00:05:10] Speaker C: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's. It's fun because you can, you can see the development of how they did the stories. So you had Sonic Adventure, which had a little bit more dialog. You know, it was fully voiced, fully 3D, and for the time it was a fun game. It's a little janky nowadays, but I think that Sonic Adventure was, you know, got good reviews during the time and so they tried to keep making a little bit more dramatic. With Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes had A little bit of it. And then Sonic 06, they just really, really went in on this like super dramatic story and it fucking sucked. And after that, up until like, I would say Sonic forces, maybe even like Sonic Frontiers, Sonic forces are pretty dramatic, but up until like Sonic forces, most Sonic games are basically just like, wow, all my friends are here and we gotta save the world. And that's it. Because Sonic 06 killed so many people's vibes with how they would do it. They just never tried it again. [00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the one where with the were the were Hedgehog or werewolf. [00:06:18] Speaker C: Sonic Unleashed. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:20] Speaker A: Came afterwards. [00:06:21] Speaker C: Which came afterwards. Sonic 06 wasn't finished when they released it. They rushed it out for the holiday season of 2006 and it was supposed to be this really immersive, physics based Sonic game that was supposed to essentially be Sonic Adventure 3 where you play as. You have three different hedgehogs you can play as. You can play as Sonic Shadow Silver. And they each had sidekicks that you would play as. But all the levels and all the physics were really, really, really wonky to the point where like the, the loop de loops, like the iconic Sonic loops weren't real. They were. You could walk up them as slow as possible and you could even like stand on the top of it because it just wasn't done. And it nearly killed Sonic. Yes. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it really is like basically in the 90s, there is the core, almost holy trinity of Sonic 1 through 3 with like the addendum of like Sonic and Knuckles, which was like an basically what DLC is today, but for the Genesis at the time where you could play, they basically released an entire cartridge that you would just slam your old cartridge on and then Knuckles would be in the game. But after the Genesis went into the Dreamcast is when the adventure games came out post. The adventure games is when Sonic's, you know, core developers, the Sonic team got so crunched on nearly every single title pretty much post adventure 2 that Sonic 06, which is the Sonic game that came out in 2006 for those who don't know what that is, basically led the creator of Sonic to leave development halfway through the creation of Sonic 06. [00:08:02] Speaker B: Jesus. [00:08:03] Speaker A: He just left due to stress and they forced to push a halt. They also cut the team in half. So the other half of the team worked on a Sonic Wii game. So that game could be out for. For the Wii release, which it wasn't out. [00:08:17] Speaker C: And that one also sucks ass. [00:08:19] Speaker A: That also. [00:08:20] Speaker C: Yeah, that one's actually less fun than Sonic 06. Sonic 06 is at least moderately fun because it is shit and it's kind of fun to play against the jankiness. Sonic and the Secret Rings is a fucking bad game. It's not fun. The jank isn't like exciting, it's just really slow. And the way you though. Yeah, it's a mission based progression system that makes zero sense. [00:08:43] Speaker A: It's so. So 15 years into Sonic as a video game franchise, Sonic is on the brink of death. Sonic is at a spot where he could not just exist anymore. And thankfully, after a few mishaps here and there in 2009, 2010, kind of in the early 2010s, we get a bunch of good Sonic games again. We get Sonic colors, we get Sonic generations, which is basically made to be like, hey, look, 20 years of sonic, nothing could go wrong. And then another 10 years of sonic going all over the place and having its own. Yet another bad Sonic game that was historically considered one of the worst games to ever come out happened during that time, which was the Wii U exclusive game Sonic Boom the Rise of Lyric, which is when SEGA wanted to reboot Sonic and they did, they made a Sonic Boom TV show which is genuinely a cult classic amongst pretty much anyone who just still watches cartoons nowadays because it was like a really cheeky, fun look at the Sonic and his pals. And then ultimately we get to a point where if we just, we get up to 2019 just trying to get into 19 years into Sonic and we get at the very top of 2019 is where our trilogy begins. Because early 2019 we get a poster of a silhouette of what Sonic is supposed to look like in this first film. And it is disheartening, it is worrisome because I mean again, it's only been five years since that poster was probably released, which is insane to say out loud that it's been half a decade since that first poster. And like that whole first slew of Sonic the Hedgehog, you know, marketing that nearly killed that film being released, basically. It's just wild to think about how the fact that just five years ago these films were already from the get go on rocky waters. Immediately we are in a spot of just like, oh no. [00:11:04] Speaker B: Right. Grant, if you would rewind, take us back. Where were you when the Sonic design was revealed? [00:11:12] Speaker C: I remember this very vividly. So I worked at a computer science building in college where I didn't do anything except during like the summer. And even then it depended on the day. Some days were really busy. And I remember the the silhouette comes Out. And I send it to my buddy Brantley, who is the only other person I know that like Sonic more than me. And I'm like, dude, this looks like ass. The silhouette looks like shit. And they're like, oh, I don't know about that. You know, we can see it. But it does look pretty weird. And then the trailer comes out and I'm, you know, and it's been a couple months, but I'm still up. I'm still in my work. And I go, holy shit, this is gonna be fucking awful. And it looks bad, it looks scary. It's not charming. Like, it's almost this. Hey, let's make something so ugly that you kind of like it, but it's still. It doesn't work for Sonic. [00:12:12] Speaker B: Well, it's caught. Yeah, the original design was kind of caught in that. I guess you could call it the uncanny valley where they clearly tried to redesign the character to fit within a realm of realism since the film was live action. So it's like, okay, let's make him more rodent. Like, let's make his eyes smaller because no creature on Earth has eyes that big, you know, and let's just make him look like some kind of physically biologically believable version of a cartoon blue super fast hedgehog. Which is kind of a misguided idea from the start, but, you know, it's a hard needle to thread, going for like, oh, here's a goofy fantasy video game character. Let's try and make him realistic. [00:12:58] Speaker A: And again, didn't really work. It might sound insane to listeners out there who are wondering, how could you already tell by a silhouette on a poster that things are gonna get bad? But here's the thing. Sonic's main design usually are noodle arms, noodle legs, big white gloves, big old feet with shoes on it. Settle down. And a big huge head with a big old spiky head on it. When you see the silhouette and you can tell that they put time into the curvature of the muscles in his legs, you know, that the time spent on that was a little too much and that we're gonna get a redesign that apparently the team behind the film was like, we don't have to do that. And the Paramount. Basically, someone an exec said at one point, like, listen, people didn't care too much about when they redid the Ninja Turtles for the Michael Bay produced films. Like, that's literally. Like, apparently he said, like, listen, what a reference point. I know of all the things. Again, a cautionary tale of where this could have gone. And basically said like, fans hated that redesign, but general audiences couldn't have cared less and they still saw those movies. So Sonic, just do this for us. So they did that for Paramount. The trailer comes out with the gangster's paradise kind of backtrack. You get, of course, the most iconic thing to come out of that trailer, which was memed to absolute death almost a year after its actual release in 2020, which is a shot of Sonic looking at the camera going meow. With his horrifying teeth. His realistic looking teeth. [00:14:47] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah. Am I remembering wrong that his, like the very first shot of him, of his face is like the scream when Tom. [00:14:57] Speaker C: That's it. [00:14:58] Speaker A: It's his full face. Right. [00:15:00] Speaker B: But it's like he's screaming because. [00:15:02] Speaker C: Yeah, that's it. [00:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it's like you. Not only is it a terrible design, but the way you chose to reveal it was as like a jump scare. [00:15:11] Speaker C: Oh, so bad. [00:15:12] Speaker A: I mean. [00:15:12] Speaker C: Cause. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Cause they have a shot, I think earlier in that trailer where you see him prepping to run and then you get a close up of the eyes. And even when you see the eyes, you're like. [00:15:22] Speaker B: You can tell something's off. [00:15:23] Speaker A: It's very wrong how they're doing this. And then you get a trailer that now is just a fever dream, considering that it's literally. They do not reshoot anything that's in that trailer. It is just for the final film. It is just they made Sonic look like Sonic for the initial release. And so the film is supposed to come out originally, I believe, Thanksgiving, Christmas time. In 2019, Internet bullying for the first time in its whole. In the years that the Internet has been around. The first time bullying a studio on the Internet, actually. [00:16:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Because they pushed the film back about two to three months, I think it came out maybe even it came out. [00:16:09] Speaker C: In February or like late January. [00:16:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it's one of the last films to come out during COVID. [00:16:18] Speaker C: When I went to go see that movie, I probably had Covid and I didn't know it. I. I was like, damn, I feel like. And I go and see it. [00:16:28] Speaker A: Sonic is giving me life. [00:16:31] Speaker C: I didn't feel worse. And when I watched the movie, I was like, I enjoyed this and. And then I went home and just collapsed into nothing. [00:16:38] Speaker A: But I mean, it just is like the big things that you take away from that first, that initial trailer before they push it back is the fact that they initially want Sonic to be a Nightmare Fuel character that looks nothing like how he looks in the games, which again, when it comes to studio bingo for adaptations. That's not exactly out of the ring. But the second thing that is probably the biggest note out of the whole trailer is the fact that Dr. Robotnik, who is the iconic villain who is in practically every single sonic game, is played by a comedy icon, Jim Carrey. And the first thing you see of him in that trailer is of course his introduction in the film and I would argue of his performances in all three of these films. That initial scene where he's introduced is like the worst scene that he's in. [00:17:36] Speaker C: Like what are the worst they make up? They make him such a loser in it because he's going up to the major that's running it and he's like interrupting him like a little kid. And yes, and I honestly had. The rest of his performance in that movie isn't bad, it's pretty good. But at that moment he does not have any of the competency or threatening like aura that he kind of has later in the film. He just seems like a child. [00:18:03] Speaker B: And yeah, he's not just an asshole. Yeah. [00:18:06] Speaker A: It's also the way that because again, it is a trailer, if you're going to sell people on how this movie is going to look, you should pick shots that are really going to pop for the audience. That scene is so flat and how it's set up and how it looks. And how it looks. It very much has the energy of like, oh my God, is this gonna be a hop, a Woody Woodpecker, a fucking Clifford, the Big Red Dog situation? Is it gonna be like everything that isn't the animated character is as flat as can be. Is it gonna be uninteresting visually if there's no sonic in the screen? It is. The answer to that question is depends. It really just depends on the scene to scene. I think the first film is the least interesting visually, unsurprisingly. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Oh yeah, absolutely. Visually it has. [00:19:00] Speaker A: Especially later on, especially when it has more of the outlandish moments. Like of course, the great wall scene, like the chase sequence that goes through different countries and whatnot. That's the most visually interesting because that's mainly cgi. And they can have fun with the kind of cinematography and the placement and whatnot. But it is from the get go from that original trailer, it just has the energy of like, oh no. Like, what are we gonna do to James Marsden? We're make him do this again. We're gonna make him sit with the CGI character and just hang out in the flattest seats possible. And then you get to the movie. And it's fun. Yeah, it's like very solid. It is very much just like a. Well, this could be a dumpster fire. But this is pretty mid. It's pretty okay. Like, it is of what it could be. Like, it very much could be so much worse. But that is not. Again, huge praise. [00:20:00] Speaker C: Going back. I literally just watched it before we started talking because I hadn't seen the first one since 2020 and I was like, I should probably check it out. I really like James Marston's character in it. Like, going back through it, I'm like, he's kind of fun. Like the part where robotics talking to him on the phone and he's. He's in the phone booth and he's like, I've only been beaten up by one person before you. Now you're. You're next. And he goes, well, good for me. And it's just like his confidence is like. I'm like, yeah, charming. Or when Sonic asks him what a phone booth is, he goes, oh, it's mostly used for drug dealers. And I'm like, that's, that's a funny line for this. [00:20:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:43] Speaker C: Literal no. 1 character. And he does try his best. I think he does a good performance. And I gotta, I think back to like when you look at like on set pictures of Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, they have those life size stand in models for the character. Do you think that like when they filmed it, they had the life size stand in model for Sonic and it was ultra. Like, oh, I probably. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Probably made those. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Like, could have also not had had it for that first film in terms of as much detail as the sequels do. Like, it might just have been like just a green ball or like just. [00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I, I mean, I have to imagine they have some promotional material out there that was already made with the old design. [00:21:32] Speaker A: No, but like, Marsden is such a fascinating person because his career is basically, for many people, started with the fact that he's one of the worst interpretations of Cyclops of the X Men. He has nothing to do with that other than just doing the best with what he has. Then around that time, he's also in the Notebook as the boy that doesn't get the girl. Yeah. He then like around that same time does, which I would say is one of his best performances. Enchanted. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:05] Speaker C: He doesn't. He also doesn't get the girl in that one. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Well, he gets, he gets Idina Menzel, which in all honesty, still. Still wins to a degree. [00:22:11] Speaker C: Still wins. [00:22:12] Speaker A: But like his career is so all over the place in a way where it's like watching Sonic 1 again. I went, jesus, is this the most, like, prolific he has been in terms of just, like, performances? Even though there is not a lot here for him, he is doing pretty much everything he needs to. To be, like, a character that at least exists. And you, like. Like, to be honest, like, I think I made it. I mean, when to like, with a later sequel with Sonic 3, I was like, honestly, if you killed James Marsden, which he does not die in Sonic 3. Just. I don't want anyone to freak out. James Marsden is still alive in these films and will probably still be giving life advice until these films are done. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker A: But I was thinking, like, you could honestly have Shadow shoot James Marsden and he would probably like, be a genuine shocking moment. I would have probably been sad. I would have been sad. [00:23:10] Speaker C: I would have been upset. [00:23:12] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think James Marston is. He really is kind of a secret weapon to these movies, especially the first one, I think, because the first one really relies on him being that it is, you know, kind of setting up the premise of this version of the Sonic property. You know, we're in the real world, we're in our world, and we're gonna have to live with the fact that most of these characters are just regular human beings, just actors in front of a camera. Yeah. And James Marsden is your guy for this kind of stuff. And I think he proves that in this first mov of. You know, like, it's a specific skill for an actor to be able to, like, do, like, camp. Like, really heightened, exaggerated stuff. I think James Marsden has, like. He has mastered corny. Like, there's campy and there's corny, and he just knows how to do that. And it's like, so much of his dialogue in that first movie or any of these movies is tacky as shit, you know, sappy, sentimental, bad jokes. But, like, he does it in this. This lovable goofball. You know, I'm kind of an idiot, but I'm also like, a really good guy and super dependable, you know, sort of way that it just, you know, it makes him really empathetic. And I think that is like, a huge. A major feather in this first movie's cap. Because I'll be honest, when I first watched this, like, back in theaters, when it came out, when I first saw this movie, I fucking hated it. I really hated this movie. [00:24:53] Speaker A: I remember. I remember that. [00:24:54] Speaker B: And thankfully, I rewatched it, you know, in the last. Over the last couple months. And Enjoyed it a lot more. I still don't think it's a great movie like overall, but. But I had a lot more fun with it and like it really teed me up going into Sonic 3. But yeah, I think a lot of what won me over was James Marston in this movie. And I mean Ben Schwartz is great as Sonic 2, which we'll get to. But yeah. I can't believe how much James Marsden adds to the Sonic movies. [00:25:28] Speaker A: He clearly, when he talks about these movies in press since the very beginning, has enjoyed the process. Yeah, like there's not an energy of like, I'm doing this for the money. Like both him and Tika Sumter, who plays his wife Maddie, who before these films was mainly known for playing a version of Michelle Obama in like an Obama biopic. Southside with youh. There's a. So like it's. It's the film where it's like Michelle and Barack's first date. Like it's around that time where there was that and Barry getting made. That's like the most notable thing before these films. And then she shows up and I think she's absolutely delightful. Especially in the sequels when she gets more to do where it's like there's this energy of like, you know, there is a version of the first Sonic film where our human is. And it is a child. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:26:18] Speaker A: Child with the child. And like they're doing like, you know, 80s kids adventures, like trying to figure out how to get to the next spot. But it's. Thank God they go with James Marsden because I think having an adult, a sense of groundedness on the top of like not only Sonic but also Jim Carrey is fucking Robotnik. It's good to have that in between and like. [00:26:40] Speaker B: Like a normal, well adjusted human being. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:26:45] Speaker A: Because like it gets to a point too where I remember like one of the first things you hear about the film when they were doing like the synopsis, I think even before the trailers was they announced that Marsden was going to be a cop in Green Hills, Montana. So of course it's like Sonic fans at least maybe Grant could say otherwise. But you're just going, oh fuck, it's Green Hills is in fucking Montana. Like whatever. [00:27:07] Speaker C: I kind of dug it when I first saw it because I'm like, oh that's, that's a cute way to do, you know, Zone one one being being a normal ass small town. I. One of the, one of the really things I like about the. The character choice for Martian is that it is the first time. And I think almost any Sonic media where Sonic gets to be a kid. [00:27:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:32] Speaker C: Because a lot of times Sonic is like, I'm a cool leader guy, everybody loves me. And having the approach to look at him as a teenager is unique for these movies. And I think moving into that, that more father son dynamic that they have is a lot more interesting than doing buddy buddy. And while I do like. I agree that the first movie is definitely the weakest of the three, but I think it does establish a perspective of Sonic that we don't normally get to see in the games. And I. I dig that. I really do. And I like that they. They make Maddie also like a mother character. I think the whole family dynamic is. It's a. It's corny, but it works really well with Sonic. [00:28:27] Speaker A: No. Yeah. It has that energy of like it. It's. It's such a. It's genuinely a joke when I say this. But also, I would not surprise if it works if you get down the line to like a Sonic 5 or 6. Like if they do another trilogy of these, if you get to a point where it's literally the only humans we see that often are Tom and Maddie. And then there's like 18 different furry characters that have been introduced for the last three films, like, that was fine because it's honestly like when you get to all the way up to three, even in three, it's like you still know what to do with them. Like it is. I would even argue that like the best funniest thing that happens in this entire series is I don't think intentionally meant to be funny, but it's James Mars did in Sonic 2 where. There is a scene in Sonic 2 where. Because the whole thing in Sonic 2 with James Mars is he's on a Hawaii vacation at Four Seasons in Oahu. Just in case you forgot, there are the four Seasons in Oahu somebody times. Because these films with product placement, hilariously enough, are very much honest about how much product placement very. There is a scene in Sonic 2 where James Marsden, his whole thing is just like trying to have a vacation Hawaii for his sister in law's wedding. The human plot for most of it. And there is a shot of Shemar Moore covered in champagne with his boys. Like a very lathered up homoerotic scene. And then it cuts to Marsden and Marsden, just as a fatherly figure goes, jeez, I wish Sonic had that. Just talking about the camaraderie of the boys. [00:30:02] Speaker C: It's so cute. [00:30:03] Speaker A: But it's also like, I Cannot believe that this film is trying to be so earnest about like a bunch of dudes that are shirtless is like basically just like pan hooting and like throwing champagne all over each other. [00:30:15] Speaker C: It's the thing I think. [00:30:18] Speaker A: So earnest. [00:30:19] Speaker C: It's that. And that's the thing I think makes it work. It does. Fully leans into the fact that it's like, oh man, I wish my kid had friends he could party with. And yeah, that's his biggest, biggest problem in that movie at that time. It's just he doesn't have a buddy. [00:30:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And again too. It's like these three films. I think the third one is the best of the three, but it's really just a, like an interesting, pretty much standard succession in terms of how do you make these more interesting. But the first film, it's really is just like, like Andy said, like setting the groundwork like, like you said, Grant, like, basically like giving him someone to bounce off of a father figure. Ultimately, in the first film they're more buddies, but clearly there's a father son dynamic there. Especially when you get one of the most insane ways to open up a new film, which is like a 10 minute sequence of young Sonic on his alien planet with his adopted owl mom as a bunch of echidnas attack her and then basically go, sonic, go to Earth. And I don't know about you, Grant, but when I saw the echidnas the first time, I went, does this fucking guy that's directing this actually like Sonic? [00:31:42] Speaker C: Oh, he just like. [00:31:44] Speaker A: Did he just shove the echidnas in from the get go? Like this weird antagonistic way, even though we're not gonna see them again. [00:31:53] Speaker C: It's wild because I was fully expecting. I saw the echidnas at the beginning. I'm like, oh shit, Knuckles is gonna show up at some point in this movie and we don't even see him until the second one. [00:32:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah. [00:32:04] Speaker C: We don't even get a mention. Sonic doesn't even go, yeah, my. My sick owl mom died by a bunch of echidnas. He doesn't wish it. [00:32:12] Speaker B: Which again, it's just something you have to be. Yeah. [00:32:16] Speaker A: Noticing it is, oh my God, I gotta look up again. What? Yeah. Cause it's just like from one onward, like his one also has like some genuinely goofy moments, some great nods to the games. Literally has a film putting in like in like in a visual setting in a film. Sanic, the Internet meme that at the longest time was like, this is so fucking stupid. No one at a certain age group is ever gonna understand what this joke is? And then there is a scene where the blue devil is described as this. And it's the Sanic meme. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:55] Speaker A: And those memes just keep coming back. I mean, all the way up to the fucking third. The third movie basically has all the huge Sonic memes that were created right as the first film was happening and released. Like, it's so. It's insane how in tune the director, Jeff Fowler, the writers, Pat Casey and Josh Miller, like, how they are just like wildly able to find a way to ground this blue hedgehog, but also still able to sneak in just the. The wild goofy shit that Sonic is tied to. Because again, lore in Sonic is basically a crapshoot in terms of whether or not it really is super cool or also like, super confusing. Yeah, like, I mean, again, that's one of the things, like, I understand why Sonic team and the Sonic fan base still exist is because it's like, even though a lot of the times it feels like the games are just like, we're totally not doing Breath of the Wild, we're totally not doing Super Mario Galaxy, we're totally not doing this or that. But even when they kind of harp and like kind of take different ideas from other video games, they still have weird Sonic Team choices that are placed upon those things where it's like, well, damn, there's still some personality to it. Is it good? I mean, like, not really, but at least it's trying. Like, it has that energy to it. And the movies are unabashed with its love. Especially three. Three was a fever dream to watch as someone who knows the game, that it's like, again, just in a personal level, going to a theater with like my brother and my sister and my, like in my sister's boyfriend, and just like being like, I'm the only one of these four that have played Sonic Adventure 2. I'm the only one that is like, okay, I can kinda. I know kind of what they're going to do. And then in Sonic 3, they even. They use a fucking song from the games as a motif in the movie for Shadow, as Shadow's theme. And it's just. And it starts with this one. It just starts with one. The fact that, like, even though I think Junkie XL scores for all three of these films are solid, I would argue that all three of these films, his scores for these films are infinitely better than his Furiosa score. I feel like these at least feel like they. He understands the assignment well enough that he's able to just like Pick and choose. I'd even probably say it's better than the Mario Brothers score. Like the. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:36] Speaker A: I. I think pulling more. [00:35:39] Speaker C: I think the fact that Sonic lends itself to act like gangster's paradise. Terrible choice. But having having Sonic introduced in the first movie with. Is it Don't Stop Me now by now. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:56] Speaker C: And having that, it's fun. It allows you to use these more modern songs or more contemporary pop songs and be like, oh, of course Sonic would listen to this. It's about going fast and he's a fast guy. But being able to pull from. Being able to pull from probably some of the most iconic. Both really good for being musically good scores that Sonic has. And also the Butt Rock era that has a bunch of edgy lyrics. It allows you to play with it. And it's so nice to see that the love that goes into it. Almost every level was there. And I dig that a lot. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I mean, again, it is. Doesn't mean that the film is phenomenal. Like, I agree with Andy that I think the film is. The first film is definitely fine. [00:36:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:47] Speaker A: And I feel like it is very much. It gets the job done. The best way I can describe the first film is that it's a great cable movie. Like, I really think it's like, if you like, I could see this, like if it was 10, 20 years ago when this movie came out. This is like a USA network or like a tbs. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:04] Speaker A: Like, I could see myself having this on being like, I know what this movie is. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:09] Speaker A: Like, I just. Like, I just watched this and I think people would enjoy it. And if we're talking about performances, I think we should also. I mean, I would want to hear how both of you feel just in a general sense about Jim Carrey. [00:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:23] Speaker A: Because I feel like what we talk about here at the base level with one really does incorporate pretty much every piece of his performance going forward in terms of his approach, how hard he goes. Because I think he goes pretty damn hard in this movie and then finds a way to one up at each time. Yeah. [00:37:44] Speaker B: But Grant, I'll let you lead on this one. [00:37:49] Speaker C: So when the movie first got announced and people were like, oh, I can't believe Jim Carrey's robotic. Hell yeah, I was on the fence. My. My favorite iteration of Robotnik is. Is Obviously Sonic Adventure 2 where he's sort of this very deeply scheming, pretty damn evil guy. Like In Sonic Adventure 2, he puts a real ass gun up to Amy's head and like, basically Says, come, come on, Sonic. Come and do this or I'll shoot this child in the head. But like, and he wins In Sonic Adventure 2, like, he doesn't know how what he wins. But like, he's smart, he's conniving, he's very mellow in that game. And then having Jim Carrey come off and immediately just be like, I'm going to be the most over the top version of this character that can exist. But he really sold it in one. I think the part that really gets me for Robotnik is when he's trying to get into Tom's house and he's like, yeah, I work for the electrical company and they keep trying to one up each other on like all the, all the stuff. I like that scene. And then he has the, the moment where he's preparing to get Sonic and then, you know, he gets interrupted by his, his assistant and he's like, I love the way you make your lattes. Like, okay, I, I see where they're going with this, but I like that we got to see the origin of Robotnik where he goes from being a military contractor to a super villain. Yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker A: Gosh, it is so funny how the film introduces Carrie's Robotnik as a man who has snuffed out coups in other countries. Even is implied that there was a country that used to exist that does not exist anymore because of Robotnik. Yeah, hard cuts to him in his Sonic one get up. Which, yeah, if I remember correctly, a lot of people were not happy with the fact that he wasn't bald. And then of course, Gary commits. He, he commits. Yeah. And even his bushy mustache becomes a. [00:39:54] Speaker C: I, I, it, it worked. He did a good job. He, he took something, made it his own, but also recognizable enough to be like, oh, this is a very good variation of Robotnik. And I thought it was good. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Carrie was a major part of my initial disconnect with the movie. I think it really, like it, honestly, Honestly, like, I think it put me off not, not necessarily like from Carrie personally or as an actor or whatever, but it felt like a really lame, like studio choice to just hire Jim Carrey to play the villain and just to have him be Jim Carrey and not really any sl, you know, slag on Jim Carrey because he's awesome and hilarious in so many things. But that just kind of felt like a casting choice of like, oh, we'll just hire him to do his thing and it doesn't really matter if he tries to embody any type of character that fans would previously recognize or whatever. And granted, I'm coming to this as not a Sonic fan at all. So, you know, it's not like I'm coming to it with personal baggage like, oh, he's not being true to the spirit of Robotnik. But, you know, it just felt like kind of shallow that he was just, oh, he's just kind of gonna do the Jim Carrey thing that we've seen before. Great. And granted, on rewatch more recently, it worked better for me. I still don't love him in the first movie, but I think that's more of a script thing or more of a, you know, that situation where filmmakers look at a funny performer and say, and action, be funny kind of thing. You know, it's not like he. That the jokes are all that well founded or, you know, the care or that they're ingrained in the character all that well. It's just kind of like, okay, Jim Carrey. Go, go. Jim Carrey talks. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Well, sorry. When Carrie talks about that first film, I think he says like more than half the script was thrown out on his. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Like, I think he, like, he basically ad libbed a lot of it. So that is a fair assessment. [00:42:19] Speaker B: And I do think that, yeah, as the movies go on, he kind of builds an identity for Robotnik which is a lot more fun and makes the character somebody you care about as both a villain and kind of an anti hero eventually. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, yeah, and I think it's. It very much is that case where it's like that first film. You really have to get used to the fact that you are just seeing OG Cary in a lot of that. [00:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Which in the movie was kind of like, I mean, at least kind of culturally received as like a comeback for Jim Carrey because he hadn't done a lot of like screwball comedies in a while. And so maybe the cynic in me just bristled at that because it was like, okay, but why is Sonic the comeback for classic Jim Carrey? [00:43:06] Speaker A: No, I, I just remember a conversation I had with my dad like a decade plus ago where like I remember there was one random time I was maybe home from college or something and I watched Aladdin for like the first time in years. And I remember my dad coming home from work and I was like, oh yeah, I'm watching Aladdin. And my dad's like, ah, I don't like Aladdin. He's never said to me before. And I was like, oh, what's up? He's like, to be honest, I Don't like the Genie. And I was like, this is interesting because to me it's like the Genie. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Is the best movie, makes the whole movie. Yeah. [00:43:36] Speaker A: And then he goes, which he basically goes like, well, listen, you have grown up with your life as Robin Williams is the Genie. Like from the genie point onward, you have basically just been seeing the shtick. Like that I had an extra decade of Mork and Mindy of him doing stand up specials. All I see is Robin Williams. Yeah, I don't really see Genie, I just see Robin Williams. And it's hard not to really. I couldn't not think about that While rewatching Sonic 1 and 2 as well as just like at the time in the theaters where it's like, yeah, this is I guess the most real. This is like our version of that experience of like we saw all of Carrie's best hits because they were on vhs, they were on cable all the time. Or you know, we saw the Grinch maybe then that was in theaters. And like at that time when we were growing up is when he wanted to stop doing this movie. And so now we're seeing in real time him go back to that. And it is hard. I mean, I think you can't really not see him just doing his usual stick, right. Doing like. But at the same time having enough of a personality in his Robotnik performance that literally they keep calling back to it every film afterwards. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Like I forgot how many times latte with Austrian goat milk is brought up. Every single film. It's a joke. That is in one scene. It is in an improv dance sequence that Jim Carrey picked the song for and just they let him go crazy for. And then Stone, who is now a beloved Sonic character, even none of the. [00:45:17] Speaker C: Games, just the movies. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Just the movies. He shows up and is like, I just thought you'd like a latte with Austria goat milk. And he says, of course, I love the way you make them. And then every film after that, all the other characters that know Stone have to find a way to bring it back into the story. [00:45:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:34] Speaker A: It even becomes a part of the story where in the second film, Agent Stone runs the Mean Bean Coffee Company, which of course is a reference. It is a reference to the Dr. Robotnik Tetris ripoff. [00:45:48] Speaker C: It's not Tetris, it's Poyo. It's Poyo. [00:45:51] Speaker A: Oh, yes, it's Poyo. That makes sense. But it's. But still is like a. It's still a knockoff. It's still a Sonic game reference. And it still ties in with the fact that Stone is good with coffee. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Right, Right. Well, then in the third one, it becomes a sentimental point right. At the very end. It's like we've recycled this joke so many that it's become, like an emotional touch point within the movies. [00:46:19] Speaker A: And in case you Forget, in Sonic 3, who Stone is. They have Knuckles call him the Goat Milker as his introduction. And which, again, is another crazy thing about these movies is that first film is really standard, but does well enough, especially during COVID times, both I think, in rentals and in theaters, that it's able to be like, all right, we're gonna do. We're gonna do Sonic 2 and Sonic 2. Bigger budget, more Sonic shit. We're getting Tails, we're getting Knuckles, we're getting the Master Emerald. We're getting a genuine Robotnik robot, which is. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:58] Speaker A: We also, like. Again, we get. In the first film, we get, like, a canonical reason as to why Sonic calls him Eggman, which is, like, wild, because hilariously, in that first film, the reason why he calls him Eggman honestly makes more sense than how the games come up with the name Eggman. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Where it's just like. I think In Sonic Adventure 1, he just makes fun of how he shaped like that and, well, he kind of looks like it. [00:47:26] Speaker C: And. And to be fair, he's always been Eggman. So in Japan, he was never Dr. Robotnik. He was always Dr. Eggman. Because the Japanese love to name things after their shape. In video games, it's just. It's just like what they. It's how it was. But when they got ported to the west, they were like, all right, calling him Dr. Eggman. The kids aren't going to like that. They don't want. They don't want puns. They don't want weird names. They want Robotnik because he built robots. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Was it also a Beatles reference or is that just something that people have retroactively added to it? [00:48:01] Speaker C: No, no, no, no. So he. He. He. Yes, because he looks like a walrus. He is the walrus. He is the anger man. Cuckoo. And. And that. And that's why he has the mustache. And then he has the two. His shirt has the two points that look like walrus tusks. So it was. It was. It was this whole thing that they never translated in the West. And then when Sonic Adventure came out, they were like, oh, you should just go back to naming him what he's called in Japan, but we'll call him Eggman as a joke. Then that's What Sonic is saying. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:34] Speaker C: And now. And now canonically, he. He is Dr. Robotnik or who goes by Dr. Eggman. [00:48:42] Speaker A: It's. Yeah, it's great too that. The fact that it's like in universe the adults in the military still call him Robotnik, but literally the public, since Sonic is, you know, figure, they call him Eggman. Like it's so funny when they show like the pictures of him and his. His grandfather Gerald, also played by Jim Carrey, in case you didn't know that. Doing double duty in that third film. But just hearing like a good manu when they do the Japanese like story for. And it's. We also. I want to do probably one of my favorite castings in all three of these films. Not a Sonic character. And you would never think that he's important in the games, in the movies whatsoever. But he's honestly hilarious how he ties into all three. And that is Walters, which is the army General Major in all three of these movies. He's the one that does the Olive Garden bit in the first film with the endless breadsticks. He is the one that introduces to the audience gun in Sonic 2, which is a canonical government agency that is in the games, which I think is Guardians is. It's like it's something unified nations. [00:49:59] Speaker C: It's Guardian unit of nations. [00:50:01] Speaker A: Yeah, Guardian unit. [00:50:02] Speaker C: It's like the U.N. yeah. [00:50:04] Speaker A: Yeah. The whole. The whole Hawaii plotline with Shemar Moore and the wedding with James Marsden is just to introduce GUN and to get them closer to the Master Emerald. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Guardian units of nations. That is a translation if I've ever heard. [00:50:19] Speaker C: And. And they didn't make any. The funny thing about GUN is the first time they appeared in the games wasn't Sonic Adventure 2 as villains. So. Because. Because in Sonic Adventure 2, they think. They think Sonic is Shadow and Gun is just like, we need to arrest Sonic the Hedgehog. And that. [00:50:38] Speaker A: Which again, I love. I love the fact that they can't. Like it is 2024. The director, the writers, they can't think of a plausible way to use the Sonic Adventure 2 plot thing, which is on the heroes story in Sonic Adventure 2. The thing that makes it go for like the first 90 minutes of that game is the fact that everyone thinks that Sonic is Shadow. And Shadow is like, no one knows the difference between black and blue. He's too fast. They can't even. They can't even try because they're like, why? [00:51:14] Speaker C: Like it's. [00:51:15] Speaker A: He's mean. He's mean and he teleports and. [00:51:19] Speaker C: And it's super funny in the. In the show, in the games, because Gun contained Shadow and they're like, oh, Shadow and Sonic are the same person, but you guys were containing Shadow and you. It doesn't make sense in the game. Well, it. I mean, if they, like, go find us, go find an anthropomorphic talking hedgehog. He's probably black. And then you see a blue anthropomorphic talking hedgehog, and you're like, close enough, close enough. There's can't be that many of them. So the odds of me getting this right are at least 50. 50. [00:51:52] Speaker A: But it's so funny because, like, in the game, it's like every time they show this is a picture of Sonic and it's Shadow, it's like, crisp. Clearly not the same fucking. And then, at least in this movie, it's like, yeah, no one really talks about it as if it's Sonic. But that still leads Gun to be like, well, I don't know if I trust the other hedgehog that is apparently on our side, because what if they could team up and they're both fast, Maybe they're both evil. But I just want to bring up Walters, because Walters is not only just like, just a wild choice because he introduces Robotnik to the audience. He's the one that suggests bringing in Robotnik in the first film. He's the one that introduces Gun in the second film. And then in the third film, he is in, I would say, the craziest scene in the entire, like, three films. Because I can't imagine writing this in a script and not sounding like a fever dream, which is Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are at a chao garden in Japan, which is a reference to Sonic Adventures Adventure 1 and 2. Because there's these cute little creatures that you could basically almost Tamagotchi to a degree. Like, you know, basically train race fight. Now, looking back at it, it's very silly that you could have Sonic train race and make little creatures fight each other like Pokemon style. But it is. It was. Hey, it was the time Pokemon was still the craze. You have a little child, basically say that Tails is Detective Pikachu. Which leads to Idris Elba Knuckles doing a pika pika impression. And then immediately, in a scene mainly filled with goofy characters, like just this wildness, you have a normal white man just come down, sit at the table and go, sonic, we must talk about Shadow the hedgehog. And it's fucking insane to go into a flashback of Shadow. And then immediately, once they're done with that, they Go into a Japanese Jackson 5 thing, the Cafe gets attacked, and then Walters fucking dies at the end of that scene. It's like all the things that are happening in that scene. I can imagine writing that in a script and being like, what are you fucking talking about? Why are we doing it like this? And it makes me really appreciate where they got to in terms of these films. The fact that it's like they're unapologetic at how silly it is to have humans in a Sonic narrative. [00:54:28] Speaker C: Well. [00:54:29] Speaker A: And they're willing to just commit. [00:54:30] Speaker C: And Walters is sort of based off of a Sonic character who made his first appearance, I believe, in Sonic And Shadow the Hedgehog. Yeah. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Kind of. [00:54:42] Speaker C: So it's like Commander Abrams, because. Except Commander Abrams in the games was younger than Maria and was, like, a little. He was born on the Ark. And it became. [00:54:55] Speaker A: He canonically didn't like Olive Garden. I think it's awesome. [00:54:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. He says that in Shadow the Hedgehog Evil Route. He's like, I can't believe that you took me to Olive Garden that one time, Shadow, and never paid. [00:55:07] Speaker A: That's his whole backstory. [00:55:08] Speaker C: You said that your. Your credit card was in your. Your wallet that you left in the car. [00:55:14] Speaker A: Do have more money. What are you talking about? [00:55:17] Speaker C: But they. They changed it to Walters, but Walter still has the connection because Walters was there when Maria exploded. [00:55:23] Speaker A: Yes. In. In an. In a gun institution that technically should not exist. Because According to Sonic 2, GUN doesn't exist until the end of Sonic 1. It's one of that weird thing where it's like gun. In Sonic 2, they go, we have created a new government agency gun. And then in Sonic 3, that goes. In 1972, we had a government installation run by gun. It's like, okay, classic Sonic. You're not following your own timeline. You're just. You're adding more things that doesn't need to be. Which honestly is perfect for sequels because they could just keep doing that if they want to. [00:56:01] Speaker C: Well, and. And to get back to, like, talking about, like, the second one, I feel like we've been jumping between one and three a lot. [00:56:07] Speaker A: I've been jumping. Yes. [00:56:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:10] Speaker B: It's Logan's favorite thing to do is skip movies. [00:56:12] Speaker A: Well, I mean, to me, these just feel like we could go back and forth. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:56:17] Speaker A: Well, almost like a hedgehog. [00:56:20] Speaker C: And I think the thing about the second. Well, the thing about the first one is I was actually talking to Adam about this today. You could replace Sonic with any sort of alien and give him some sort of superpower. And you can almost have the exact same movie. [00:56:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:56:39] Speaker C: And it's fine. And, like, I think that's very generic. [00:56:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:44] Speaker C: And I kind of feel like that's why the first one is so mid to me, at least, because I'm like, this is a barely a Sonic story, Right? [00:56:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:52] Speaker C: But coming into the second one, you. You, you introduce. You come up and immediately introduce Tails at the end of the first one. And honestly, Colleen O'Shaughnessy, who's, you know, voices Tales and the games and the movies was. It's phenomenal that they got that she got to do that. [00:57:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:11] Speaker C: And she does such a good job. I think, that the first one, she's kind of getting her bearings of whatever the direct how the director wants her to do everything. But by the time the third one comes around, I'm like, damn, she is doing a real good job being Tails again. And I dig that. [00:57:29] Speaker A: Choosing her as Tails almost feels like Two's version of grounding the first film with James Marsden with, like, Tails. If you are a fan of the series, when you see and hear Tales, it's exactly how you've seen and hear Tales, have heard tales for a decade. [00:57:44] Speaker B: Plus at this point. [00:57:46] Speaker A: And so it's like when you go, by the way, we're gonna have Idris Elba as fucking Knuckles. Like, and we're gonna do that interpretation. It's clearly having Tails also commit to the idea, which has happened, I think, since the original games. But Sonic Adventure games pushed this more to have the idea of Tails being kind of younger canonically than Sonic and having, like, an older brother, younger brother dynamic and having, like, a classic, like, you can understand this kind of dynamic very well. It has that grounded nature between a yellow fox with two tails named Miles Tails per Hour and a blue hedgehog on top of the Knuckles of it all, which, I mean, we already asked you how you felt about that poster when it first got announced. How did you feel, Grant, when Knuckles was definitely going to be in the second film? And they said, by the way, it is Idris Elba is Knuckles. [00:58:42] Speaker C: So I don't know if you guys saw the tweet that how Idris announced that he was going to be Knuckles. [00:58:47] Speaker A: I definitely did, but I can't remember. [00:58:48] Speaker C: So. So there is. There is a. There is a song from Sonic Adventure that. It's Knuckles Song. It's like his character song. And it's the first time that Cause Sonic Adventure had lyrics for the songs. And it opens up with knock, Knock. It's Knuckles. It's A great way to start a rap. So Idris Ilba tweets a picture of Knuckles silhouetted fist and just tweets, knock, knock. And I was like, peak, this shit's, this shit's in the bag. We got the best version of Knuckles that we'll ever get. And they, they made him cool. They made him kind of a meathead, but not in like a stupid way, but more of like a, you know, culturally different way. [00:59:42] Speaker A: Like the classic alien kind of energy of like, I don't understand your ways. [00:59:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:48] Speaker C: And they, they started him off as sort of, you know, being manipulated by Eggman, just like he has been in every single iteration. [00:59:55] Speaker A: Classic. [00:59:56] Speaker C: And they, they made him brooding, but not annoyingly brooding because they gave, they had to wait for Shadow for that. You know, giving him this honor bound. You know, they, they made him everything I love about Knuckles, and Knuckles is my favorite character in Sonic. I, I, he's okay. He's. To me, he. [01:00:15] Speaker B: I was gonna ask by the end of the episode. [01:00:16] Speaker C: Yeah. No, no, no. So Knuckles is my favorite. And the fact that they kept everything about him that works and then they added onto it really makes that my favorite. He, Knuckles and the movies by me, my favorite interpretation of Knuckles besides maybe Sonic Adventure 2 Knuckles, but that's also nostalgia too. But I just like. Because Knuckles being this sort of generic, mystic, tribal vibe that they go for can be problematic. And a lot of times because, you know, cultural appropriation and a lot of not looking into what they're going to be using for like, esthetic purposes, it's kind of weakened sometimes. But the fact that they really, really took the time to make it an impression, important plot point in the movie made it seem really appropriate. And then getting Idris to voice him and I, it's, everyone I know is like, Knuckles is black coated. He's been black coded for his entire existence. And the fact that they're like, yeah, we'll get Idris El to do it. And I'm like, damn, they know exactly what to do with this. [01:01:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:32] Speaker A: And they clearly knew how to market him too, because especially if you're a child who, if you only know Sonic from that first film, to basically advertise Knuckles as one of the only people who could fight him because he's brawn, he's just really fucking tough to have to have his line be, do I look like I need your power? And then just body slam him into the ground. It's like, that's all you really need to sell. [01:01:56] Speaker B: It's a good intro. Yeah, yeah. [01:01:58] Speaker A: And it's also, yeah, I agree with you that I think like the film does a phenomenal job of taking like at this point, the classic oh my gosh, Sonic is trying to take something from you, like plot from like Sonic 3 and then find a way to make it more interesting. Because not only is Robotnik using that to his advantage, there is an actual reason for Knuckles to feed that way. Because Knuckles clan went against the Owls, which Sonic is attached to. So of course he's going to assume they're on two different sides of the spectrum in terms of how to handle the Master Emerald Knuckles big thing that he always has something attached to. Ever since sonic adventure Sonic 3, there's never been a Knuckles plot line that doesn't have at some point a Master Emerald pull. And if it doesn't, it's a weaker game because of it. [01:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:50] Speaker C: If you ever get the time. There was an animated short that they made for to promote Sonic Frontier, the recent open world game. It's a 2D animated short about Knuckles just chilling on angel island while goes down. It's very charming. There's no dialogue. It's like really slow paced and like weirdly vibe based. And it's very good. Just throwing that out there if you're interested in more, more of that good, good Knuckles content. [01:03:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And Sonic 2 is again, it's the confidence that I think one has to a degree, because one I think has confidence, but clearly also has a smaller budget. So they can only go so far with that confidence. Sonic 2, the confidence is so much more apparent. Especially the fact that like, yes, the fight sequences feel a lot more kinetic and feel like they really actually thought about how a blue hedgehog that's really fast would fight an echidna that could punch hard. [01:03:56] Speaker B: Right. [01:03:56] Speaker A: But also the fact that like, it can also have moments like Jim Carrey flossing for Knuckles deadpan and be like, it's committing to both. It's committing to the absolute bonkers energy that they're gonna give this movie. And the fact that they're gonna go full hard into Sonic lore to the degree of like getting. Getting the best of. Because these three films, like one the least amount. But two and three, you're basically like, here are the greatest hits of some of the Sonic lore of Echidna stuff. You have Tails, you have Sonic, their relationship together, the introduction of Super Sonic. And then of course in Sonic 3, the introduction of Super Sonic and Shadow as a duo, basically Goku and Vegeta hedgehogs. And basically commit to that while Also being able to be like, I don't know, let's see what Tom's up to. And while I don't think every time they do that it works, I would argue that two is probably the weakest pace wise, because I think it's the biggest of the three. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I think also the human element of two is the weakest human element in all three films. [01:05:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Because once Sonic and Tails get captured in two, there's, I think, a solid 10 to 12 minutes. [01:05:18] Speaker B: It's just. [01:05:18] Speaker C: It's the wedding. [01:05:19] Speaker B: It's just Wedding. [01:05:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:21] Speaker A: And again, it's fine, but it doesn't need to be there. [01:05:25] Speaker C: I. I kind of. I kind of vibe with the idea that they were really committed, that people would care about it and we weren't there yet. There's something. There's something like Charming where it's like, hey, these nine year olds that are coming to watch Sonic really care about this wedding subplot. So we're gonna have 12 uninterrupted minutes of wedding subplot. And I remember watching it and I was like, this is too long. I need some Sonic. [01:05:53] Speaker A: But yeah, but at the same time, I think, like, especially with rewatch, while I do think, yeah, it's still long having Shemar Morg. Shemar Morgo, like, I've broke the first rule of undercover work. Never fall in love. And then it's just like having that be in a Sonic film and feeling Jesus, it's just like. [01:06:11] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:11] Speaker A: And then I think after that scene, hard cuts to Maddie getting to the cages and letting them out. And then it just goes right back into Sonic stuff. And then from that point forward, it's just like Sonic content in I think the best way. And it has that energy like from. Because like two. Because again, I think all three of these films, even though two is the weakest paced, I think are very economic with how they take time with the exposition, their set pieces. I mean, the first film, it's like we're 30 minutes in is when Tom and Sonic meet and they go on their road trip. Sonic 2. I think we're hitting the snowfall into the Hawaii stuff like a little over an hour in. And then I timed this for three. I'm not fucking kidding. The. The galvanized Eggman dance sequence is an hour in an hour on the dot. And from that point forward, for like, for two and three, at least once it goes into the Sonic stuff, it just feels like it doesn't let up. [01:07:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:17] Speaker A: And I think in the best way and for a character that's supposed to go fast. It really does feel like it speeds through it. [01:07:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I think that just to finish my thoughts off of Sonic 2, I. I really like that the rivalry between Knuckles and Sonic does feel different than Shadow and Sonic. They definitely are able to kind of ride this fine line of two characters that could potentially overlap in a lot of ways. And they. They didn't. And I really liked that. And also the final scene, the final fight in Sonic 2 with the big Death Egg robot. [01:07:52] Speaker B: Right. [01:07:53] Speaker C: It's so cool. It's in the trailer when they showed the giant Eggman robot. I'm like, man, they got it. They know what to do to upgrade Jim Carrey's Eggman from military contractor to super robot villain. And it is just give him a big ass mech. And it worked super well. [01:08:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And it really is again, almost feels like into their awareness that there's a little bit too much human because like, it clear that all the stuff that's human and two is basically like people saying like, oh, we thought the Donut Lord thing was funny. We thought Natasha Rothwell as Maddie's sister was really funny when she was tied to a chair and threw jokes every five seconds. We thought, you know, the Austrian goat milk joke was funny. We thought Adam Pally was probably funny because they put him back in for two even though he really didn't need to be there late. Stone is back. But like, almost, it feels like as the film realizes, ah, shit, it's probably a little too much of this is when it's like back to Sonic, back to Eggman. We're in the finale and then we get like, yeah, the final fight sequence in two is like the synergy between the three of them. The fact that you get like basically a Sonic Heroes reference in how they sometimes are format, like how they are formed. [01:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:11] Speaker A: I think at one point there is like a Tails holding the both of them. [01:09:15] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. It's like he does. [01:09:17] Speaker A: I also love the fact that Knuckles is taller. I think the both of them. So to add to the almost sibling dynamic, Knuckles, even though he is more culturally inept, feels like the older brother to the two. Especially going into three. [01:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:34] Speaker A: And it's like this is a fun dynamic where in the original games, at least in Sonic 1 and 2, you know, you do get that brotherly kind of Tails sonic energy, but mainly just from Tails. Like, it just feels like a bunch of boys hanging out. [01:09:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:09:46] Speaker A: Like, it's just a bunch of boys hanging out. They're kind of the same age Sonic is clearly coded older in 1 and 2 than he is in any of these movies. [01:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:56] Speaker A: But, like, it is. It's really fun to see them be like, you know what? Sonic's a kid. We'll give him, like, a pretty standard, you know, hey, guess what? If you want to be a hero, you got to learn about responsibility and working together with people. You know, not going on by yourself. And then he has the classic like, I shouldn't have done this by myself. I need my boys. And does he do it again in three? Sure does. But at the same time, it still works, because you get what I would say is, like, the most. The reason why I think Sonic has lasted for so long, too, is not even just his way past cool attitude is the fact that, like, when the writers in some way, whether it's the comics, whether it's. Gosh, if we talked about the comics, we'd be here for another hour and a half. But, like, if we use the comics, it's the games, it's the cartoons. Like, Sonic has a definite personality, usually. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:55] Speaker A: And that is something that Mario doesn't really have. Now, Mario is a bigger icon, for sure, but similar to Mickey, it has that energy because they're so big. You can't really do a whole lot without feeling like this is not how the character is. Sonic is not like that. Sonic stood out in the 90s because he was the 90s incarnate. And now the way they've transformed that over the years has just been like, he's snarky, he's sarcastic, but he loves his friends. He loves saving the world. He is. He's a hero. And I think with these movies, to kind of just be like, he is a hero, but he's also, like, 14. Fifteen is like, a good way to just be like, okay, now you can make 17 of these movies, and you can basically have him grow into what you kind of see in, like, Sonic Adventure 2. Because in Sonic Adventure 2, he has moments of growth, but it's nothing like these movies because he's already kind of fully established. And really, that growth only comes from, like, having to be pushed by characters like a. Yeah, like an edgy black hedgehog with red highlights and hover boots, which, going into three, it is just like. I don't know about you guys. I thought the marketing blitz for three felt like a complete paradigm shift from what we got from the first film in a way that is, like, I think they were way too confident, and it still paid off for them. [01:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Just. I mean, Just to go from like again a kids film and having your main antagonist or one of your main antagonists have a gun in one of the trailers, like, this is Shadow. And it just, it going into three, it was kind of phenomenal how like, you know, there's a two year gap between each film and going into three, we knew that we had Shadow because similar to how Grant talked about how Tails was introduced at the end of one, Shadow was introduced at the end of two. [01:12:55] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:56] Speaker A: But we all had this idea of who Shadow should be. So a lot of 2023 was just like, you know, fan theories. Of course, the biggest one, I assume, Grant, you heard about the Hayden Christensen shadow. [01:13:07] Speaker C: I was so convinced it was Hayden Christensen. I just thought about like brooding Anakin coming out of Shadow and I'm like, oh, it fits so well. [01:13:17] Speaker B: Be perfect. [01:13:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Keanu did a good job. And I will say Sonic gives Keanu props in the first one because he watches, he watches speed and he goes, Keanu is a national treasure. [01:13:30] Speaker A: He does, yeah. [01:13:33] Speaker C: I think that my problem with Keanu as Shadow. [01:13:40] Speaker A: Interesting. I didn't even know you had a problem. [01:13:43] Speaker C: It's not a big problem. I do love Keanu as Shadow. There are times where I feel like they really had to and we can, you know, props to the animators, but there's some times where I'm like, is Shadows body acting really making Keanu's voice work a lot better. But I know that Keanu has done a lot of voice work in the past. So I think it's a little bit of A, a little bit of B. I think it's a good casting. But I still wish in the deepest in the, in my mind that it was Hayden Christensen because I just, I wanted to see Anakin Skywalker as Shadow the hedgehog. [01:14:21] Speaker A: Because like in prep for this episode I had to read. I wanted to relook when was Keanu announced as Shadow? And they waited until April of last year. Like they really like, they basically showed us this, I think 2023, like at the end of the year they showed us the logo and played live and learn in the background is like the neurons activated in my brain nostalgia wise. Which is like, why? How did the fuck do we get here? To get to the point where we have a multi million dollar film that is referencing a butt rock song from a Dreamcast game that came out in 2000, 2001, to get to that point. And then in April of 2024 they're just like, yeah, it's Keanu. And it. Yeah, I had that energy of, like. I think. Yeah. In my head, I was like, Hayden Christensen would be insane in terms of, like, if you go for dreamcast Sonic Adventure 2 Shadow, like that game. But to have Keanu in the film, it does have that. It, I think, is a good, bitter kind of energy that cuts. Schwartz's just happy go lucky, constantly talking, you know, Sonic that I feel like is, you know, not like the games. And Schwartz, I think, does a great job in all three of these in terms of really keeping the energy up and giving, honestly, giving Sonic his emotional moments levity when they need to. And I think it makes it work all the better for Shadow when every time Shadow goes, why do you keep talking? It's, like, genuinely funny. Because it's after, like, three or four jokes that are, like, at his expense. [01:16:00] Speaker C: What really sold me on the writing for that one is the first quip Shadow gets is just the. You're a colorful bunch. It's just such a muted, like, perfect way to introduce this character who does not give a. Who's not here to quip. And, yeah, they still give him the quip, but the way he says it and the way that the. They animate Shadow there, I was like, damn, they know this character enough that I'm not. I'm not worried about it. [01:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. I mean, his. Again, the movie opens with his introduction as to how he gets into the plot and him waking up and Jorma Tacone from the fucking lonely island, like one of the technicians watching his pod. And leads to our first action scene in this movie, which is in the first 10 minutes and is just our main antagonist or one of our main antagonists just knocking out a bunch of soldiers and breaking through a wall at a prison and then just gliding on water to Tokyo. If you're gonna. You're gonna open it like. Absolutely. [01:17:08] Speaker C: The action sequences in the third are. An unreal amount of choreography was done for the. For this movie. And I. I remember reading somewhere that it was like, man, the best Dragon Ball fight scene ever to see on the big screen. Sonic 3. [01:17:28] Speaker B: That's how I felt. That was my frame or reference for that. This movie, because I'm a big Dragon Ball guy. And, yeah, like, it was like, oh, shit. I guess we don't really need a Dragon Ball adaptation because we have the Sonic movies. [01:17:43] Speaker A: But at the same time, too, that's like. That's something we have really never seen in the games, because in the games, when they become supersonic Shadow, it's to team up. [01:17:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:17:52] Speaker A: So to have like a moment to. [01:17:53] Speaker B: Just be like, they smacked him. [01:17:55] Speaker A: How do these super powered hedgehogs fight on Earth? And to have those, like, really creative moments of just like the. The warping effect of like going to, oh, we're here, we're in Egypt. We're here. We're in the mountains. We're there. And it's like, damn. I thought man of Steel was probably gonna be the closest we'd get to a Dragon Ball Z fight. Feeling real. Never thought Sonic Adventure Sonic. Oh, wow. I'm gonna call it Sonic Adventure 2. Never thought Sonic the Hedgehog 3 would be the one to be like, damn. Really incorporated that incredibly well into the plot. And yeah, it's. I mean, this one's the best of the three because I feel like, you know, they probably heard a lot of people talk about how long the second film is, and so they cut it down like 10, 15 minutes. And it feels shorter in a good way. All the human stuff has been cut down to what feels like the bare minimum, yet still helps the actual plot. You still get some. Don't you still get some James Mars in. You get some Tika Sumter. You also get a little Shemar Moore and Natasha Rothwell. [01:18:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:55] Speaker A: For two scenes. But it's funny just to see them for half. For a few seconds. And then ultimately is the Sonic Shadow Knuckles Tails show. Like, it's almost to the point where anytime I saw Kaelyn Ritter or Caitlyn Ritter, who was Jessica Jones. [01:19:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:13] Speaker B: Kristen Ritter. [01:19:14] Speaker A: Kristen Ritter. Thank you. [01:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:16] Speaker A: Like, when I. When she popped up the first time I saw this movie, I was like, why are you here? And then at the end of the film, I was like, I get it. But at the same time, like, you didn't have to be here. Like, I feel like it's okay that you're there. Like, it's. [01:19:29] Speaker C: She's actually. One of the weirdest plot points I have of this show of the third movie is like, you have. They don't want Eggman and Shadow to get the keys to the arc, right? [01:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:45] Speaker C: And so they're like, oh, they're gonna go to GUN to steal it. We should steal it first. And like, I get it. It's like, oh, we don't know if we can trust these GUN agents to do the right thing. They've already kind of us in the past. You know, they're gonna do it. And if we steal it first, then maybe we have a better chance at hiding. Feels weird because when they get there, it's like, oh, actually they had under lockdown. They got Jim Carrey and Jim Carrey and they didn't know about Shadow, which I guess was a big thing, but they got Jim Carrey and Jim Carrey on the ground before Sonic got there. [01:20:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:26] Speaker C: But I don't know. We got the Jim Carrey dance scene from that. The heist that has. [01:20:31] Speaker A: That has been my. That will ultimately be the most watched thing from the scene movie. [01:20:36] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:20:37] Speaker A: Besides the fight scene between Sonic and Shadow, I feel like it's, like. It's insane how the first film has an impromptu dance sequence where he's, like, kind of humping a rail and he's, like, dancing. He does, like, a VR thing with the dinosaur in the first film. The second film, he's on wires just, like, kind of swinging in the death egg. And then in this one, he is doing a duet with his grandpa with a bangin dance number to galvanize by the Capitol. And it's genuinely really fun. It's completely useless to a degree, but it's really fun. [01:21:15] Speaker C: I think. I think the fact that Sonic 3 was able to balance so much melodrama with legitimately funny comedy moments. [01:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:25] Speaker C: Really solidified it as one of those movies that I think will be looked at in 10 years and be like, yeah, this was a. Or, you know, 10, 20 years where people are, like, going back and looking at, like, the 2000s for movies and they'll be, oh, yeah, the first two are fine, but the Sonic 3 one, that. That one's a standout. And I loved. I loved. Speaking of, like, the human interactions going to have. You have, you know, Tom and Maddie at the beginning. Right, Right. [01:21:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:55] Speaker C: You have this, the cute little race. And it's very brotherly. And they're like, man, I can't believe that we have three superpowered children. And they really solidify that as, like, how they look at their family. Like, this is our family. And then they're gone for, like, most of the movie. [01:22:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:16] Speaker A: But I was able. [01:22:17] Speaker C: Yeah. But I was glad to see them back. Like, when they came back, I wasn't like, ugh, they're here. I was genuinely like, yes, I am. I want to see Sonic's parents. [01:22:28] Speaker A: Well, because usually in a situation like this, whether it's like a cartoon character or, like, wacky characters that are kind of balancing with the normal characters, the human characters, you usually have the human characters being like, I don't want to be a part of these antics. But it is kind of weirdly refreshing with the basic choice of having both Maddie and Tom be like, oh, thank God. We were so bored. We have too many hobbies. Please tell us the stupid plan you want us to do and is like, this is literally all you could do for the next few films is literally have James Marsden tell Sonic's arc at the very beginning to Sonic. Sonic goes, ah, whatever. They do some things with the humans, but not a lot. Then they get pulled back in later and then it's like, you know what, Tom? You're a great dad. That's basically all you really have to do. Almost like a fast and furious, like, always end at the dinner table with Coronas. It always just be there. And it really. Yeah, it's like three, hilariously enough, has the energy of, like, figuring out that formula of, like, if we want to, like, really get a lot better. I feel like we start here rather than two. [01:23:37] Speaker C: Or three. [01:23:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:38] Speaker A: Or two. Or one. Even though two, I think is still a lot of fun and I really enjoyed two. I think three is just like. I will not forget just like the lead up to three. How, like, usually when a film comes out in December, it is like a. Oh, this movie will probably bomb. Mainly because there's a Disney Avatar film out. There's, you know, there is like a indie film that is like, probably going to get big in the Oscars. There's usually so much shit coming out out in the Christmas slot around that era. And Sonic 3 was coming out like right before Christmas. So like, against Mufasa, the fucking Bob Dylan movie, complete unknown and Nosferatu, like all these vastly, like all these other films. There was like six films coming out on Christmas and like, Sonic 3 has to fight all of them. And the constant thing I would hear is people go, I don't really need to see this in theaters right now. Mufasa, whatever. Yeah, Sonic 3. I need to see it. [01:24:42] Speaker B: I'm seeing that shit. [01:24:42] Speaker A: And it was wild to hear that. Go to the theater with my. With my siblings, sit there and have my brother look at me and go, I want 10 of these. Like, sincerely, like the, like the guy. I don't know how many Sonic games that man has played. I don't know if he's played more than two or three. But to see him be like, I am in. I don't care what it is. Sonic 3 has sold me on this. Whatever Paramount wants to do, I'll do it. I'll watch it. Insane. [01:25:15] Speaker C: There is the moment when Sonic is on the moon and he's about to kill Shadow and he doesn't. And then they Sit on the moon, and the sun comes up behind the earth and illuminates them. That was, like, one of the first times in a long time where I've looked at a CGI in a movie. And I went. I got brought out of being immersed because I had to just respect how good it looked. And I was like. I was like, holy shit. And, like, it's weird because I'm like, these are two clearly cartoon characters, but the fur textures with the lighting and the emotion on their face, like, this looks good. And they have this whole conversation about how they're gonna be better. They go, super Saiyan. They go to fight all the robots. And then it immediately cuts to Jim Carrey getting spanked by Jim Carrey. This movie fucking rocks. [01:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And this is like, again, I think two starts this as well. But, like, the first film, clearly, because of just the budget and also trying to just sell people on Sonic as a movie character and as a franchise, it's pretty flat. It's very sunny usually. And there's not a lot of style to how the movie is shot other than, like, when they go full ham on, like, that final chase sequence. Two changes that in a lot of ways. When it comes to, like, more of the anything with, like, the master emerald stuff, like the flashback or, like, the talking about the echidna versus owl stuff is very stylized and cartoony. More shading. The lighting feels a lot more dynamic in two. And then you get to three. And three starts in this stark blue and purple, like, red room that is, like, lit up by the orange on Shadow's hover boots. Every time he teleports, kicks the Shadow, someone teleports, does this. A lot of more color in 3. The action sequences just have. Yeah, like you said, like, at a moment, you're just like, I can't believe this is a Sonic movie. I can't believe we're four years later and this is it. [01:27:23] Speaker B: It's just all around so confident, like, in everything. Like, it's more confident in the jokes. It's more confident in the set dressing and cinematography. And just like, the. You know, they know at this point that the audience will go along with things. Like, you know, it's like we can have extended sequences where these characters are doing goofy video game shit that, you know, the average person might not usually be able to, you know, tolerate or whatever, but, like, they know by this point, people are on fucking board. Let's go for it. [01:27:58] Speaker A: They're going from the first movie being like, the biggest references to the games is Green Hills. [01:28:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:05] Speaker A: And the theme to Green Hills, which I think John Baptiste does the arrangement for the original film. And then Sonic 2 is clearly doing Sonic 2 and Sonic 3. And then you go straight from the 2D games to the most nostalgic most. To most Sonic fans, the most iconic 3D Sonic game. You are skipping like a few games. [01:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:28] Speaker A: Just to get to the game that is like, well, you just want to see this happen and to sit in the theater and watch a movie. Sell me on Maria playing live and learn on her guitar as a diegetic motif to Shadow's actual fucking theme. And also to watch them at one point watch a stop motion puppet monster film that is with the Bio Lizard, which is the finale fight in Sonic Adventure 2. Just to see. Yeah. The confidence in like here's a reference. There's a reference. You didn't think we'd talk about this? Fuck you. We're gonna talk about this. It's like, why are we. You're going so hard. You can make more. You don't have to put all of your chips into this movie. And they really do. [01:29:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:18] Speaker A: Like Sonic 3 feels like they're like. Even though Sonic 3 has that stinger for a fourth and a fourth is announced right now. It is there. It's watching Jeff Fowler and his team just be like, all right, here you go. [01:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah. They're doing everything they've wanted to do with the Sonic movie this whole time. And they're finally. They have the. The budget and the cultural interest to just do fucking all of it. [01:29:44] Speaker A: And they do just lets Carrie go crazier than you think he would be. [01:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:49] Speaker A: Like already. And like also weirdly have the most character for not only Robotnik, but for also his grandfather. There is a difference between the performances. Like this man was in the first film. Yet it feels very different execution wise. [01:30:11] Speaker C: And. And there's some legitimately like chilling lines that old man Gerald Robotnik makes that are very important, but it doesn't make him less goofy. Like there's the part where he's explaining to. To Eggman, he's like, and then the world will explode and we will be in the. The we're going to get caught with it. And he says it so seriously and so determined. Shit. And then immediately Eggman's like, what? And it's great. It's so good. And then. And then you get the hard line of oh Ivo, you're Maria. And it's like, oh my fucking God. He was using his grand. His long lost grandson this entire time. Because he doesn't give a shit about him. He only cares about Maria. It's great. It is amazing. And then he spanks. I have spanks. I'm a robotic ass in, like, a couple minutes. [01:31:07] Speaker A: He also has the best actual, like, intentional comedic bit in the entire film. In all three films, in my opinion, where they go, I don't believe this. And he goes, I know, grandson. A woman in the military. It is so out of nowhere. But the series is out of pocket. And it is. And also, yeah, the fact. Similar to how we talked about Knuckles with Sonic 2, Gerald in Sonic Adventure 2 is a still shot of an old man chained to a chair. There is not a lot of characterization to him other than that. And, like, a monologue that he does in terms of explaining what he's. What the space colony arc in Sonic Adventure 2 is meant to be or what ultimately it becomes. And so to have Jim Carrey, a man who, if he says he plays Sonic Adventure 2, did not have to do that. I don't believe he did, but it's fine. But just to watch him give Gerald this just, like, dastardly edge in a suit, like a suicidal, like, mission, like, this is all for this little girl that accidentally got blown up by the government. It just works really well. And also similar to how you're talking about how he got spanked, like, he spanks Ivo. The way Gerald dies is fucking hilarious. And it's so just like, out of pocket. Just like it's thrown and then he just dies like a gnat. [01:32:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:32:32] Speaker A: Just gets bug sapped. [01:32:34] Speaker C: And it's great. [01:32:35] Speaker B: Such a good. Such a good moment. [01:32:38] Speaker A: It's so good. You also get the space colony. You get the space colony arc. You get that pissing on the moon, which is just like an icon. Like, it's become an iconic sonic meme because of fucking YouTube. And just to have like. And there's also. Is crazy too, because, again, I grant you could just chime in more for this as well. But, like, I remember leaving the theater and being like, you know, my sister has never played a sonic game, in my opinion. Maybe once or twice. I don't know for certain. But she has seen the snapcube dubs, which is like where a lot of the sonic memes have come out of in the last five to six years. [01:33:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I. [01:33:15] Speaker A: She caught a lot. She got a lot of references to those dubs that I think I might have caught one. [01:33:23] Speaker C: There's a couple and there. And there's a lot of them that are like, is this a Reference or is this just kind of like, you know, sometimes humor. People approached at the same time, but what. Like, I know one of the problems I have as a teacher is sometimes kids will be like, hey, you want to know a funny meme? And I'm like, are you going to swear? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, no, I don't want to hear it because then I have to get you in trouble. And when Sonic 3 came out and I was like, yeah, I watch it. And like, oh, did you see the part where Eggman blew up the moon? And I'm like, I know what you were about to say. Don't. Don't say that in class. But the in. And it's. It's. It's so funny that so many people these days have not played a Sonic game. You know, you get a cut. You get a couple people that are, yeah, I played the newest Sonic game, but most people know Sonic through memes or, or, you know, now the movies. And so having having the. The Internet phenomenon that is Sonic become such a primary part of the writing of the the movie really does show that they cared about it on almost every level. They cared about the fans, they cared about the kids who liked it, and they cared about the story. And I honestly, with the ending of the third one, because, you know, they said, we're going to get three. That's it. We're getting three. We're done. [01:34:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:50] Speaker C: And then they're like, I. Just Fucking kidding. Here's the. Here's the sneak peek. You get Amy and Metal Sonic. And I was just like, I'm fucking ready. I'm. I'm ready for it. [01:35:01] Speaker A: Here's what I. This might be the point where, yeah. [01:35:05] Speaker B: Let'S talk about this because this is. [01:35:07] Speaker A: Honestly, because there is. I think we. I brought it up in our last episode when I was introducing this trilogy to listeners as well as just like thinking. Talking to Andy as to why justify us doing a trilogy episode about this when 4 is already been announced. Announced. And there's probably a clear idea that if there is going. If this does well enough and they're confident enough, they're probably going to make a five. And they'll probably keep doing that until they realize they don't know which Sonic game to adapt. Because at a certain point, I think if you pick certain games that you pick, you're probably gonna lose a lot of people. [01:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:44] Speaker A: But I, I am just. It is crazy now to become a Sonic fan from these movies and try to be a Sonic fan with the games. Because right now, it is the weirdest time. Because if you want to play, like, if you want to play from the beginning, you have every access to do it. Because the. The original three Sonic games are literally on nearly every single console. They're on your phone. Like, they're on your phones. You can get them for, like, probably $3 each. You can even get a collection for your PC. But then you get to like the Sonic Adventure games and like the jump to 3D. You can't get them on any modern console. It's all on PC. And when I saw that they were like, like going into Sonic 4, being like, they're doing Sonic CD, which is a time travel Sonic game. That is insane. But also I thought it was hilarious how the only way you can probably legally play Sonic CD right now is. [01:36:44] Speaker C: On your phone because you can play it on Steam. [01:36:46] Speaker A: Is it on Steam? Okay, good. [01:36:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:36:48] Speaker A: At least in one of their places. [01:36:49] Speaker C: Except for some reason they use the Japanese openings. They don't have Sonic Boom as the opening, which nearly kills the game. [01:36:58] Speaker A: Well, YouTube, you can just look that up. [01:37:00] Speaker C: Yeah, because it fucking rips. I think that the. With. With how we're going to go with it. And like, and I will say that because of the movies, I think Sonic games have gotten better. I played sonic frontiers. I 100% of sonic frontiers. It has its bad moments, but it was a solid game. But Shadow Generations, that just came out, which is not on the Sonic Generations engine. It is on the Sonic Frontiers engine. But you play a shadow. That game is legitimately, insanely good. Like, even from. [01:37:38] Speaker B: I've been hearing that a lot. [01:37:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. [01:37:40] Speaker C: I booted up. I played it on stream and the moment I start playing, I just go, holy shit, this game fucking rips. [01:37:49] Speaker A: It's like also the first time Maria and Gerald are like actual characters, which is insane. [01:37:55] Speaker C: It is interesting how they do shadow in it. And Ian Flynn should, you know, definitely be one of those guys that whenever you look at where Sonic is now, like, I know Ian Flynn didn't have anything to do with the movies. He didn't think have anything to do with Sonic prime, but he is the one. He's been the Sonic writer for the comics for nearly a decade now. He worked a little bit on the Archie comics, but now he's the. Now he's the head writer of the comics and he's probably the. And he. He does the writing for the games now. And I think that when we look at, like, when did Sonic start being taken seriously? People are gonna be like. Well, for mainstream audience. It's when the movies were good. You know, when the movies were serviceable, it's good. But once Ian Flynn got on board the game storylines, that's when they started to tighten up a little bit. You got a little bit more of that. That fun goofiness that Sonic is known for with a little bit of more of that melodrama. But in a way that is more serviceable than someone like Ken Penders. And then like you get. You get shit like Murder of Sonic, the Murder of Sonic Hedgehog, which is that visual novel game that was free. That's free. It's funny. It's good too. It's a fun little. And the fact is, is that people who are writing for Sonic now are Sonic fans. The people who are making Sonic at least care about the Sonic fans. And I really do think that the movies showed that there is a market for it and that if you do it right, people will come to do to watch it. I. I've noticed a huge resurgence in Sonic since post Covid. [01:39:42] Speaker A: Yeah, no, for sure. [01:39:44] Speaker C: And so I think that everything we are seeing is just such a fun little resurgence of this character that has been moderately hated for the past decade or so. [01:39:57] Speaker A: Well, I think the most curious thing is the reason why I felt like it was justified to do a trilogy episode is the fact that like, where we go from here, I feel like the most realistically there is a chance that Sonic 4 is a Kung Fu Panda 4 situation. [01:40:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:13] Speaker A: Where it's like something where it's like it is a downgrade. [01:40:16] Speaker B: They shot their shot. [01:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It's entertaining. But clearly there is like a, like a bit of a growing pains in terms of if they're gonna do another trilogy of films where they're gonna go. And I felt like, you know, these three films just feel so concise in terms of the fact that they're like, we have a trilogy idea, it ends on Sonic Adventure 2. And if we have more ideas, then guess what? We have multitude of games to pull from. Yeah, but that's the thing. At a certain point, Sonic CD makes a lot of sense because that's honestly one of the best Sonic games. Sonic CD rips. I love that game. And the soundtrack is great. Amy is the classic Sonic character. Metal Sonic is a fun time. And also the Sonic 3 storyboard, like kind of concept art that released it was clear that they were going to have a metal Sonic tease at the end regardless. Because one of the concept arts that was revealed is a future futuristic Robotnik. With Metal Sonics around him. So there's a good chance again, we will. We will get Jim Carrey back. But that's the thing too. Three could be the last time. Unless they really, really ask Jim Carrey. [01:41:30] Speaker B: Right. [01:41:31] Speaker A: Bring him back. Because I think his performance in 3 is like the perfect encapsulation of the best parts of his Robotnik. And in terms of the comedy, in terms of what he brings to levity of the character, in terms of the fact that we get Eggman being a good guy, which is very rare in the series, but in Sonic Adventure 2 is like the perfect. When he does that, it feels perfect in that kind of consistency. And Sonic CD being the fourth one is. It'll be fun to see. But from that point forward in my head, it's like, is. Do you go to like a Sonic 6 where, like 6 is like chaos? Are we going to, like, do like, flooding, like, Station Square, Station Square, New York, and having like a giant Elder God creature fight Sonic? Because there's a way you could do that. [01:42:22] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I will say I'll take a little side tangent to the Knuckles TV show. [01:42:28] Speaker A: So you have seen the show? Because I have not. [01:42:31] Speaker C: I've seen most of it. It's fine. Okay. The. The two best parts about it is a. Knuckles has his hat. Knuckles got a hat in the Sonic. There's a. There's a Sonic ova animation that was for any others before any other Sonic media. The Sonic ova was like, the first, like, animated version of Sonic. And it's incredible. If you haven't seen it, it's on YouTube. It's like 45 minutes. And it's probably the best Sonic has ever been in terms of, like, fun. It also has. The only other owl character than Longclaw is in the Sonic Ova. And it's an old owl man, and I love him. And then Knuckles has a cowboy hat. [01:43:10] Speaker A: This is all for you, Andy, because I watched this with Grant. [01:43:13] Speaker C: It's so good. It's really good. [01:43:16] Speaker B: But this is the anime ova. [01:43:18] Speaker C: Yeah. It's 45 minutes. It's got a lot of, like, Japanese city pop in it. It's just really fun. There's a monkey girl for some reason, and she's the President's daughter, and she doesn't appear in any other Sonic media either. [01:43:33] Speaker A: But just to clarify, the President's also a monkey man. So it's not just like his daughter is a monkey guy, is a normal guy. It's all like, human, like, alien, animal, human, like things. [01:43:45] Speaker B: Okay. [01:43:46] Speaker A: But yeah, so you think they could do they're gonna take from the ova for four a little bit? [01:43:53] Speaker C: No, but I'm just saying that the Knuckles TV show does have the hat and that's an important part that I was gonna make. But in four, Knuckles does talk about fighting the Ilbus, which is a reference to Sonic 06. [01:44:12] Speaker A: They talk about the fucking Ilbis and then they talk about. [01:44:15] Speaker C: Yes. So when Knuckles, Knuckles, knuckles. In Sonic 3 there is a slight mention of it where Maddie says. Yeah, and they're talking about like something about boys will be boys. And it's like, yeah, but not. None of your brothers had the ability to trigger the apocalypse. Because in the movies it's implied that Knuckles is the Elvis trigger, which is. Yeah. And his little fire fist. His little fire fist move is called the Flames of Destruction, which is what the Elvis is called in Sonic 06. And I think it would be a whack ass poll if they bring in Amy and then they bring in Silver. If Silver shows up as a character, I will freak the fuck out. [01:45:01] Speaker B: I feel like that's a pretty plausible pull moving forward. Yeah, it's just because it's a fairly modern, you know, reference. Like there are people who have, you know, it's one of the, I guess, maybe less obscure just because of its recency. [01:45:17] Speaker C: Yeah. But the thing about Silver and the games is that when he shows up, he only shows up because he's from the future. [01:45:26] Speaker B: Yeah, he is. [01:45:27] Speaker C: He is from a different timeline. It's, you know, it's this wild multiverse shit that doesn't really make sense. But if we're mentioning Ilvis, if we're mentioning the flames of destruction, if that is a plot point, then maybe for some reason they try and do Sonic 06 because Sonic 06 is bad. Sonic 06's storyline is nonsense, but it is a post apocalyptic spy thriller. And if we're going to do future shit with Sonic CD stuff. I'm not saying they do, you know, I'm not saying they bring in what's her name. The. No, they might. [01:46:16] Speaker A: I think Blaze. Blaze is likely. I think it's. [01:46:18] Speaker C: Blaze is like likely. I think, I think this one we are going to get. We are going to get Amy, Rouge and potentially, potentially Blaze. [01:46:38] Speaker A: I think Silver you would push. Because in my head, if you want to get to a 6 again, if for some reason you want to do another trilogy situation, you would have Silver be the Shadow role. That Shadow is in three where he basically is going after the Iblis trigger like he is in Sonic 06, of course, you lead to people in the theater pan hooting when he says it's no use and doing his, like, his whole thing. But ultimately, instead of fully doing Sonic Oak 6, you could technically do Sonic Adventure where the real calamity is chaos, because you've already established the echidnas. You've established the. The whole thing about the Chaos Emeralds is an interesting thing because the Chaos Emeralds being the Master Emerald is kind of a different choice because in the games, the Master Emerald can block out the Chaos Emeralds if, like, they're kind of like. It almost is like a nullifier is how it's used in Sonic Adventure 2. Because I didn't watch the Knuckle Show. I did play Sonic Adventure 2 for this podcast. I did replay that game and. And I just literally finished it last night and. Because, yeah, Sonic 06 is something where it's like bringing in Silver. You're going to bring in probably his world. You're probably gonna do like the finale from 06 where what's better than two golden hedgehogs three and then that's kind of what you do. But like, to go full hog into oh, six would just be. Would just be so curious. Again, I just have no idea. [01:48:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:48:11] Speaker A: After this, like, it really is. Is the weirdest thing because you really put all your chips on the one game that people. Even though that game, Sonic Adventure 2, in my opinion, is very flawed in places, but is beloved by the fan base. And now you're at a point where there are Sonic games, where there are Sonic games that people love mainly because it's the first one, maybe because they're a younger generation or the games that you wish weren't in the Sonic franchise because they are a stain. And you have to kind of pick where you go from that. [01:48:41] Speaker C: You also have what's. There's a version of Metal Sonic and Sonic Heroes. [01:48:48] Speaker A: Yeah, he's like an Mecca, like, ex kind of situation. [01:48:54] Speaker C: It's Neo Metal Sonic who is like an actual, like, guy. Right. He's not just like, I. He's not just trying to pretend to be Sonic. He is like his own character. And. Yeah, yeah. And he has voices and he like talks shit to you in Sonic Heroes. Like, they. They have something they can do with that. But Neo Metal Sonic just kind of fucking sucks, just in general. [01:49:19] Speaker A: Well, because I think, like, it would be. It would not surprise me if at a certain point because again, one of the things that they used on the poster for the original film, I've never forgot it because it really was like the first film. I really was like, this could go either way. I think it's going to be bad. But Jeff Fowler's I think mainly known for, or at least a lot of people are, as producers on the Fast and Furious franchise. So there is a good chance that we get to a point in these films where there is, like I said, Tom, Maddie, and 18 different furry animals that are friends sitting at a table together, eating as a family as crazy shit keeps happening each. [01:50:01] Speaker C: Each film, I forgot that that was the case. And they do reference Fast and Furious. The first one where Sonic goes, don't you know, Tom? Were family, like in the Fast and Furious or something like that. And it's pretty charming. [01:50:13] Speaker A: And then in Sonic 2, they go, the Owls and the Echidnas are like the longest running rivalry in the universe. And then Sonic goes, oh, like Vin Diesel and the Rock. And then like Sonic 3, I don't think has any Fast and Furious references, which is so funny to think of how much. But yeah, I mean, it's just. It's wild that we're at a point where we can talk about future Sonic Movie sequels like this, where it's like, you know, I. Similar to when we talked about Kung Fu Panda and how, like, I think at the time when we talked about the Kung Fu Panda Trilogy, 4 was technically announced, but there was no news. So, like, we were kind of running on the idea of like, this is a concise trilogy. If they build off of it. Okay. But really, this feels like if you stopped at three, you have a good stopping point. And I think Sonic the Hedgehog 3 does have that energy to it. [01:51:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:51:08] Speaker A: Other than the fact that there, you know, there is the fact that Amy Stinger and the Shadow Stinger, which is another interesting thing because basically every game After Sonic Adventure 2 Shadow is like a clone or not the original Shadow. It's almost implied at times. [01:51:23] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:51:24] Speaker C: So, okay, so in Sonic Heroes, the. [01:51:27] Speaker A: Way that his hands move. [01:51:28] Speaker C: Okay. Because it is confusing. It is confusing. [01:51:30] Speaker A: It is a little bit, yeah. [01:51:32] Speaker C: In Sonic Heroes, Rouge finds Shadow inside a facility in a little cryo tube with E102 omega, who is a robot that Eggman designed. And Omega is Haywire and he just wants to kill everything that Eggman has ever created. He's a great character. He has some really funny moments in the comics because he's just a hater. He's like, if you. There's a part where he breaks and they're like, if you give me a jaw, bite your head off. And I'm like, damn, this guy. This too angry to die. But in. So in in Shadow the Hedgehog, which is, you know, canonically, It's Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog and Shadow the Hedgehog, there is, I think, 16 different endings. [01:52:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's disgusting. How many. [01:52:15] Speaker C: But there is a true ending. If you get all 16 endings, which takes a long ass time. [01:52:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:20] Speaker C: You can get the true ending where you do find out that it is the original Shadow. So. So it is. So Shadow did survive in Sonic Adventure 2. Eggman did find him and use his DNA to make a bunch of robot Android Shadows. But one of the endings in Shadow the Hedgehog, and it's the ending that most people get their first time through because it's the neutral ending where you just beat the level. [01:52:42] Speaker A: It's the robot. [01:52:43] Speaker B: Right? [01:52:44] Speaker C: It's robot ending. So a lot of people misunderstood. Yeah, everyone gets that ending because it's the easiest way to beat the game. But when you do that, you. You get that ending. And so I was like, oh, fuck, Shadow's an Android. No, he thinks he's an Android. But the entire premise of that game is that Shadow is the original Shadow. [01:53:06] Speaker A: Okay. [01:53:07] Speaker C: And Shadow is a genetically altered version of a creature using the black arms. Alien stuff, which we do get a little bit in. [01:53:18] Speaker A: We get in the film. [01:53:20] Speaker C: We get in the film and. And you know, we see at the end of Sonic 3 that Shadow survived. So you do have the black arms aliens which you can pull from now. They aren't super popular, but they use them again and Shadow generations to a pretty damn good effect. [01:53:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:53:37] Speaker C: And so I really do think that if they continue to do movies, we'll see, you know, I think. I think what we'll start to see, and I hope it doesn't get too muddled. I'm okay with some of it, but what we'll see is we'll see Sonic 4, which I think is going to do with future Sonic. I think we're going to see. I think Amy's going to be a time traveler from the future. Yeah, I just. It just makes the most sense. And I think Metal Sonic is also from the future. I think we're going to get a shadow TV show before we see. Before we get Sonic 4. And I think if we get Rouge, we'll get rouge in the Shadow TV show. [01:54:16] Speaker A: Yeah, because already announced that I think four will come out in 2027, so it'll be probably the biggest gap between films three over two. But like, still, I think they Said if you're not gonna really hear anything, like, see anything probably until like 2027. [01:54:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:54:31] Speaker A: But indication of a show. [01:54:34] Speaker C: And I think we'll get a shadow show with rouge and they're gonna do. They might even do Chaotics in it. I can see them bringing sbo, Charmy and Vector as sort of like a side arc for it. Just because the Chaotics team sucks for most of it. But they're talking about. You don't know who the Chaotics team are. [01:54:54] Speaker A: No. [01:54:55] Speaker C: You don't think they suck. [01:54:56] Speaker A: You don't think they. You think they suck. You think Fector, the crack crocodile, the coolest character in all of songs. [01:55:01] Speaker C: Oh, no. Becky the crocodile is the only Sonic character that canonically fucks. [01:55:07] Speaker A: He. [01:55:08] Speaker C: He is a 22 years old. He is the oldest Sonic character. [01:55:13] Speaker A: He's ancient in Sonic years. [01:55:15] Speaker C: And in Sonic X, he has a thing for Cream the rabbit's mother. Vanilla. And they're both the only characters that are like normal height. And it's very funny. [01:55:30] Speaker A: That's another thing they could do with these movies is they could ultimately end up with humans being like, you need to get all these furry creatures off this planet because this just keeps getting worse and worse each film. There are now more aliens than we've ever had on this planet. And it seems like the calamity gets worse every time. Like what Sonic X does. Because Sonic X at one point has, like, everyone leaves. It goes back to their alien planet. [01:55:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:55:56] Speaker A: Which means no Tom. Unless Tom wants to live on an alien planet. They never name dropped Mobius. Right. I don't think they've even said Mobius in the movies, right? [01:56:06] Speaker C: No, they haven't said Mobius. They. And. And I don't know. I don't know if they'll ever do that because Mobius kind of has ties to, like, Sally Acorn and a couple of. A couple of the. Not technically Ken Pender's characters, but characters we don't want to touch. Because of Ken Penders. [01:56:26] Speaker A: Yes. [01:56:27] Speaker C: And I think they want to stay away from that. Just because Ken is such a. And anytime that they do anything with anything related to his characters, he gets his. He gets mad on Twitter. [01:56:40] Speaker A: Is it one of the reasons why, like, a lot of the writing kind of in the 2010s, like, it's like they're trying to. They have a lawsuit with Ken Penders. They're trying not to do anything that could be anywhere tied to the comics and his run. So, like, any echidna shit is, like, pushed out. [01:56:57] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, when. When in Sonic 2, Knuckles is like my father. And Ken Pender's like, Sega, I invented Knuckles father. You are not allowed to even mention that this, this, this echidna has a dad. And because. [01:57:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I think if we did any more comics conversation, Andy. It's like pulling wooden planks off a hole. And it's a cavernous hole. [01:57:27] Speaker C: It's a fun deep dive. It's a fun deep dive on its own. But it's really long if you want to check it out. Like, there is a really good article by a gal named Bobby Schroeder called I read all of Ken Penders comics so you don't have to. And she just. It's literally like a three hour long. If you read it out loud, it's like three hours. And it is just a plot by plot synopsis of everything that happens in the Ken Penders universe. It's. It's a very fun read. But yeah, we can't talk about it a lot. Yes, yes, it is. [01:58:01] Speaker A: Again, it is. There is such a vast pool that they could pull from these movies. But it's like, really, the question is, how many times can you reference a latte with Austrian goat milk if you still get the certain amount of laughs or this or that? Like, does four try to bring up new comedic bits that end up being running gags for the next few films? Or is it just like they keep running the same gags? [01:58:31] Speaker B: Right. Are we getting kind of a fresh start in four or are we carrying it straight on through? [01:58:37] Speaker A: Yeah, because I'm gonna be honest, I feel like any dance sequence with Eggman past Sonic 3 is gonna have me like, Harry Potter, like, how dare you stand where he. Like, how can you stand the perfection that is that horrifying jumpsuit duet with his grandpa to galvanize. But it's like, yeah, it's just like, it is the problem of like having so much confidence in putting all your money on the table and it actually paying off because now it's like, well, we got this far, but now we can go further. And again, there are series like, literally, because people are like, I've had, I think my siblings and other people like, how. What other series that are long running is still going on right now that is like, could be something that it could kind of strive for. And it's like, well, it really shouldn't strive for Fast and Furious or Mission Impossible. But like, those are kind of really the only things that they're trying to push consistent. Like, because it's not like Star wars don't. You don't want to be like the Star Trek movies, especially the most recent ones. So it's like, I guess if you're going to go with insanity. Plus you constantly are adding new characters to the family as you go forward. I guess fast, but like. And fast is finally hitting like a breaking point. Like Diminishing Returns, but on its 10th film. [02:00:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:00:02] Speaker A: So it's like really just depends on how much longer they want to keep doing Sonic. Like, if they're like, we want to have Sonic 6 by the 40th anniversary, cool, best of luck to you. But like, I don't necessarily know what the goal is because Sonic. Sonic team doesn't really have a goal with Sonic other than just like, let's make a new game. I mean, I know Sonic Frontiers is like that engine and that approach is like, it's supposed to be the foundation for future games. [02:00:31] Speaker C: If I. And if Shadow Generations is anything to say, I think they've got themselves. I think they got themselves in a pretty good position right now. [02:00:39] Speaker A: Good. It's. But it's like, it's in that spouse with, like, when it comes to video games, it's like, it's not like we're gonna do this for like, we're not. We're treat this like a movie because they're way more expensive than movies. The process is so much longer. Like, in all honesty, it's like you can follow the games to a degree, but like, if you do, you're just not gonna have a fine A finale. So it's just gonna be curious to see where they go from here, but yeah. Any final thoughts before we talk about the comics for an hour and a half? [02:01:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:01:13] Speaker A: It was a clear joke, but Andy still nearly had a heart attack. [02:01:17] Speaker B: I just looked at the T time and I was like, it's a long one. [02:01:21] Speaker C: It's a long one. It's a long one. [02:01:22] Speaker A: But it's. [02:01:23] Speaker C: No, I. I think that the Sonic movies are some of the best video game adaptation movies. There's just not a lot that do that are able to feel like the game they're from and still bring something new. And I think. I think it's a good way to look. I. I think it's a good fun time and the kids love it. Kids are all over it. And that's the. That's the best thing you can do for a movie about a talking blue hedgehog. [02:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I've just been kind of impressed at the cultural turnaround they've cultivated. You know, we're talking just rewind to the beginning of this episode. How we're talking about how rough this for the first movie started. Like from its announcement to you get to the third film and people who don't even give a shit about Sonic are watching the trailer and being like, holy shit, I gotta see this movie. And then we all went to see it and it was a good fucking time. And you know, it's. There are now cultural memes from. From these movies too, like the, you know, the Robotnik dance and things like that. It's just wild cry when you saw this in theaters. Yeah, yeah. [02:02:37] Speaker A: Your wife cried. [02:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And she's not a Sonic fan. [02:02:41] Speaker A: No. And also like our friend of the show, Austin, who did our Chris Pratt episode and also our Cursed Monkey Bone episode. [02:02:50] Speaker B: That did not. Yeah, did not. [02:02:52] Speaker A: But I literally have been. I was like snapchatting him and like texting him during my rewatches of these films. And I think I said like, you know, yeah, Sonic 3 is a lot of fun. And he literally responded with you, that movie's great. [02:03:04] Speaker C: And he is not. [02:03:06] Speaker A: He's not a Sonic fan. Like, again, he's like, he very like, he. At the same breath, he said, fuck you, Sonic 3 is great. He also said, I can't play through generations on my 3Ds. It makes me too mad. Like, he's very much just like, that's where a Sonic fan is gonna be maybe for the next few years. He's like having people be like, I like Sonic. Let me rephrase that. I like the movies. Kind of how that integrates both fan bases into that. Especially when we're gonna get to like a great game as a base for the next film, but not a super pop culture like known popular game. No butt Rock. But great news. Sonic CD has one of the. Is a banging soundtrack. [02:03:51] Speaker C: It's true. [02:03:52] Speaker A: But yeah, I think these three, I honestly think all three of these films are like a three out of five personally. Like in terms of just like in that area. But like, I think Sonic 3 in terms of entertainment is like an 8, 9 out of 10 at its best moment. Like, I think like, there is absolutely room for growth for these films and I want them to grow. But it's all about the idea of diminishing returns and to see if it'll affect the upcoming films. But yeah, that's the Sonic trilogy. Grant, thank you so much for joining us to talk about Sonic. Please plug yourself, tell us if the beautiful people want to hear you more. Where should they listen? [02:04:29] Speaker C: Where should they follow so so you can follow. I do a YouTube podcast. The reason it's YouTube podcast is because we use copyright music and we don't want to change our intro. But you can check us out at the familiar territory on YouTube. Me and my buddy Brantley have been doing a little podcast on Magical Girl Magical Girl anime for about four years now, but we have we occasionally will dip into other things we stream on Twitch every Thursday. Right now I'm doing Chibi Robo with a couple of my buds if you want to watch Weird Japanese Roomba Simulator. But actually a couple, couple months, a month ago, me and Brantley actually voiced one of the IDW comics for a little bit. So we just read, we read through it and did different voices for the characters. So if you want to check out some of like the IDW comics and hear us make Sonic, say fuck and make gags about it while we're doing it, it's a good time. Right now our podcast is a little on the back burner because watching a full anime and balancing a work life can be a little difficult for us. We're currently, we have an episode in the pipeline, it just needs to be finalized and we're currently working on finishing up the next episode, but you can check us out on familiar territory both on twitch and on YouTube. [02:05:53] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much again. Yeah, hell yeah. And thank you for bringing all the lore, all the love and passion and willingness to just go full hedgehog to just talk about all three of these films. And it's all the reasons why it was great to have you on and we wanted to do it this year. And yeah, going into what we have next because this is out March 15th, am I correct? [02:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, March 15th. [02:06:20] Speaker A: So March 29th. It's a great thing that Grant, you brought up discussing anime, because what we're going to be talking about next is not a Magical Girl anime trilogy, but it is a mecha anime trilogy. Andy, would you like to introduce our next trilogy? [02:06:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So the, you know, dutiful listeners will remember that we've covered Gundam in the past, which is a fan favorite of Logan's and mine, near and dear to our hearts. But there's another influential mecha franchise out there, perhaps not as high profile as Gundam, but definitely has left its stamp on the genre even all these years later. We're talking about the Patlabor trilogy, which is like Gundam, a sort of realistic real world interpretation of the mech genre in which robots are base or the, the, the mechs are basically police vehicles, weapons of Law enforcement and. Yeah, so. So we're excited to jump into that and expand our mech repertoire. [02:07:35] Speaker A: And we thought, you know, like, kind of initially thinking about this time frame is also because in terms of mecha anime, it's a big moment right now because the latest Gundam should be, as of the recording, as of this coming out, should be starting up with the new Gundam. [02:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:53] Speaker A: G Cross with like, it's gonna have G Cut, G Cups, G Cooks, which is just the. The next big Gundam thing that is just like, as of, you know, this recording, there is going to be a limited release of its first few episodes before it hits Japanese television as well as American television. And we want to do the Zeta films. We're going to definitely do Zeta Gundam films in the future, but we don't feel. [02:08:23] Speaker C: We don't. [02:08:24] Speaker A: It doesn't feel right without Evan. It doesn't feel right without Evan. So we wanted to find another time to do those films. And so we thought a good in between is just an odd mecha anime trilogy that you've probably not heard about. [02:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:36] Speaker A: And it's something that. I think it's been on both of our lists for a while. But it's. Again, another thing about Pat labor is it could be hard to find. [02:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:08:45] Speaker A: Unlike Gundam, it is very much not in the same kind of vein as that, but yeah. Tune in on March 29, if I'm correct, when we discuss the Pat Laver trilogy. And as always, I'm Logan Sowash. [02:08:59] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [02:09:01] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. [02:09:02] Speaker B: Bye.