Episode 97: Frankenheimer's Paranoia Trilogy (with Matt Hurt)

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan. [00:00:22] Speaker B: So I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:24] Speaker A: And on our trilogies, we take a trio of films where they're tied by cast and crew, thematic elements, numerical order. We talk all the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding all three films. And today we are talking about a trilogy that is actually a bit of a pseudo spiritual sequel to a trilogy we tackled last year. Back in November of last year, we basically went back in time to the 70s to talk about Alan Jay Pakula's Paranoia Trilogy, which was Kloot, the Parallax View, and All the President's Men. And this time we're going back even further to the 60s to talk about director John Frankenheimer's Paranoia Trilogy, which is included in 1962's The Manchurian Candidate, 1964's Seven Days in May, and 1966's Seconds. But before we get into the film's just in its entirety, we also want to talk about the fact that we have a special guest today, and that is a friend of the POD and a listener of the pod, a fellow IFJ member, Matt Hurt. Matt, say hi. [00:01:37] Speaker C: Hi. Thank you guys so much for having me again, and I'm delighted to be back here. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to talk this. This trilogy, especially since I completely forgot that I pitched it to Andy. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, Matt. And I'm glad you're here to do this one, because this one was your idea, as you mentioned, pitched long ago. And we knew after the legendarily long and wonderful Kurosawa Shakespeare trilogy that we had to have you back for something. And so I'm glad we got you back this quickly and that we got to explore a little more Frankenheimer this time around, because Logan and I are big fans. Grand Prix, which is also Frankenheimer. So I was correct. I think it was 66 seconds. [00:02:35] Speaker A: That is an insane dual film. [00:02:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Right? [00:02:42] Speaker C: That's. Wow. Yeah. Did he direct. Not to jump ahead or anything? Did he direct anything, like, between any of these either? Because, like, Manchurian Candidate, Seven Days in May. Seconds. Grand Prix. [00:02:56] Speaker B: Did the train in 1964, which would have been the same year. [00:03:00] Speaker C: Okay. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Madman. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Seven days in May. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Absolute. [00:03:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Oh, no. Grand Prix was 67. You're right. [00:03:07] Speaker C: Okay. Still, that's an incredible run. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Seriously. Yeah. So it's. Oh, my God. So 1962, we have all Fall Down, Birdman of Alcatraz, the MANCHURIAN candidate in 1964, we have seven days in May in the train, and then 66 is seconds in Grand Prix. That's seven films in the span of like 40. Oh, man. Old school directors, man. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Yeah. See, here's the thing. He didn't have TikTok to distract him or anything, or podcast for that matter. [00:03:41] Speaker B: He had it easier. [00:03:42] Speaker A: He was too busy trying to prep for 1969's the Extraordinary Seaman, which is a real. That he did. And the Gypsy Moths is also. He did two films. And I guess I can't keep looking at his filmography. It's the fact that he did. The fact that the man that did these three films also did the infamous, or I think Pseudo did the infamous island of Dr. Moreau. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Is wild to think watching this. It's also. I mean, it's wild to think because, yeah, like, definitely this is not the first time Andy and I have talked about Frankenheimer in some extent in the last year because again, we both did posts on Grand Prix last year because we both love that film. And it's. And it's just fascinating to think that the same year that man had that movie come out had truly one of the saddest films I've seen in a long time. It just be like, wow, okay, just really doing double duty. I love that. [00:04:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that's wild. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Matt, if you wouldn't mind indulging us a little bit, just since this was your pitch, could you elaborate to us why maybe you wanted to do this trilogy or what these movies mean to you or your history with them? [00:04:59] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So it's not as like. Well, I was gonna say it's not as delicious as my Kurosawa fandom or anything. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Sure. [00:05:08] Speaker C: But it is deeply tied to my appreciation and my studiousness of the work of Rod Serling in the Twilight Zone. So one of my podcasts that I need to bring back is Anthology where I'm reviewing the Twilight Zone episode by episode for the first time as a first time viewer of the show. And kind of in doing that Rod Serling, who is like the person who created the Twilight Zone and everything, I would dive into his filmography and all the things that he'd done. So he was a very, very prolific writer and he did a lot of work with Playhouse 90 live stage productions and things. And John Frankenheimer directed a ton of episodes and he directed at least one of Serling's scripts, the comedian, I think that was Frankenheimer that did that. But anyway, and of course, in my research, I stumbled upon Seven Days in May, which was written by Serling and directed by Frankenheimer. And then also kind of in my research, if you want to call it that, Seconds kept popping up. That Seconds doesn't have a connection to Serling, but it is this very Twilight Zone esque tale. Like it is. It's something that just feels so at home in the world of the Twilight Zone. So I was obviously very, very interested in that. So, yeah, I had seen all of these movies before. I'd reviewed Seven Days in May and Seconds on Anthology years ago. Seconds. I don't even remember. I don't remember what I said about it or anything. So. But yeah, these movies are. It's that kind of like. I don't want to necessarily say old style Hollywood, but it's old style Hollywood that feels really like. It just feels very purposeful and like the craft on on screen is like. It's the kind of filmmaking that I feel like we kind of take for granted or maybe it's in danger of being kind of a little bit forgotten. It's kind of similar to something like what, what Alexander Payne kind of emulated a little bit with, with, oh God, the holdovers. Like that kind of classic style, kind of tactile sound design and everything. But anyway, my history with these movies are that I've seen them and I like them and I'm. I'm glad that you guys ran with this idea that again, I don't remember, like, I barely remember mentioning it, but I just. Yeah, because I think in listening to your guys's show, I like, I will get in my head and be like, oh, that. You know, that would be a good trilogy for them to do. But I don't want to be like, hey, you should. You guys should do this and that and this and that. I'm just like, yeah, I think, I think maybe I'll put a bug in. Bug in their ears that, you know, the Paranoia trilogy, that, that could be cool. [00:08:24] Speaker A: No, yeah, it's perfect timing too because it's literally three months since like about four months since the last time we handled. We talked about Bakula and that was it. Just a wonderful roller coaster ride that came truly at a very, I mean, hard time because we decided to choose around election season. Lovely films. And it's fascinating too just to have. Even though these are two directors that are seemingly not connected other than the fact that they were both American filmmakers that made films that are very political in our thrillers in their own right and whatnot. And besides this trilogy, it is fascinating kind of seeing, you know, with the Pekula's Paranoia trilogy, it's fascinating because each film from 72 to 77, 78 with all the President's Men, it goes from the first film in that trilogy is very singular paranoia. The second film is more of a corporate paranoia, and then the third one, of course, is presidential. It's political paranoia. It's this idea that you have stumbled upon something that is way bigger than you. And even though it's such a cliche, it goes up to the top. It goes all the way up to the top. And how do you handle something like that? And what's fascinating going to this. I wasn't expecting the same situation here, but it is interesting going from Pukula's trilogy, going from like, the least known of the three films to the most popular, probably his most popular film, to Frankenheimer, where basically the most popular of the three is the start of this. Yeah, probably his, you know, probably most underappreciated of the three, but it's probably the most, you know, cult classic of the three is the final of this trilogy. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:11] Speaker A: With. [00:10:12] Speaker B: Well, and also. And also the progression of type of paranoia you mentioned in Pukula. It's like, inverted here. We kind of go big, too small. Not, you know, necessarily in, like, the scope of the films, but just kind of the. The size of the conspiracy. [00:10:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes. [00:10:32] Speaker A: I wonder, Matt, when you went through it this time with all three of these films, is. Was it probably interesting for you just to think about the fact that, like, you watched Seven Days of May because of Serling, but of these three films, the film that he is attached to feels the least like a Twilight Zone episode compared to the other two films. Like, you know, fascinating. [00:10:52] Speaker C: That's really interesting because you're absolutely right. Um, the thing that. And we'll. We'll get to it when we get to Seven Days in May. But, like, the thing that I just love about Serling's writing is just, like, his dialogue is. Is incredible. Absolutely insane. And, like, he can make a movie about, like, political intrigue like this be the most suspenseful thing. And when matched with, like, Frankenheimer's direction, he. It's like. Like, it's a lot of people talking and it's, like, incredibly tense and. Yeah. And I have other thoughts about that that we'll get to, of course, everything but, like. Yeah, I just. It's funny that. I don't know. I don't know. Slash, I have no idea if Seconds and the Manchurian Candidate. I don't know if they were, like, specifically influenced by the Twilight Zone or if they were if there was anything like that, like any cross referencing of like inspiration, like seconds feels like a Twilight Zone. Yeah, absolutely. But it's just. It's really interesting to see that kind of be in the. In the. In the fingers. No, in the. In the whatever. In the. I don't know, pots of all of these things. The roots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of these other projects, I mean, going. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Into the first film of here being this the again, like Manchurian Candidate is the one that is definitely the most popular because I think depending on the generation, I think even younger generations have heard of the concept of what a Manchurian Candidate is through the idea it's. [00:12:39] Speaker B: Kind of a ubiquitous like term. Yeah. [00:12:43] Speaker A: And it's like almost situations like we have characters in media now that I feel like, you know, a modern example of what a Maturian Candidate esque character could be is Bucky Barnes from like the Marvel films and where it's like that could be a conversation of, you know, this idea about being able to be controlled solely by just being hypnotized and being against your own will. And. And also the fact that it's like, you know, they're of all three of these films. This is the film that also is. Has a modern ish adaptation in terms of. I mean, it's now 20 years old, I think almost. I think it's getting to that point, which is wild. [00:13:24] Speaker B: Which I had actually, I hadn't seen any of these three movies prior to doing it for the podcast, but I had seen the Manchurian Gate. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Oh, really? Okay. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah, many years ago. I don't remember it very well, but I remembered it well enough to like when I was watching this one, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, this plot. Beat that plot. B. [00:13:42] Speaker A: You were going, wait, that's not Denzel. That's Old Eyes. That's Sinatra. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Why is Frank Sinatra white? He should be black. [00:13:53] Speaker C: What's something interesting about that? That as well, I haven't. I don't know if I've seen the. The Mentoring Candidate remake, but. And this is. This is maybe not me pitching another trilogy to you guys. Or maybe it is, but there was Manchurian Candidate remake was in 2004, I think. So it's like 21 years old now. And then Seven Days in May had a made for TV remake in 1994 called the Enemy Within. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:14:25] Speaker C: With Forest Whitaker and Sam Waterston. I have not seen that. And then. And then seconds. I don't know, Jason. Yeah. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know who would want to pick up seconds? Just like not saying, yeah, that like Seconds is like a perfect film, but like, that's just a. That is such. And we'll get to it more when we get to that movie. That is such a movie of its time in a way that I feel like is just. [00:14:53] Speaker B: I feel like. I feel like somebody like Brandon Cronenberg would do a Seconds remake. [00:14:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:59] Speaker A: I gotta say, I'm surprised. I wonder if Sorkin has ever bounced around to Seven Days in May. [00:15:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that one feels. I don't want to say Sorkin esque because it's such a thrown around term and obviously kind of derogatory at this point. But Serling's snappiness and the sophisticated with which all of his characters speak kind of reminds of how a lot of Sorkin movies play out. [00:15:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:25] Speaker B: So that would make sense for him to remake it, but yeah. [00:15:28] Speaker A: So I guess so. Andy, you're in the same boat as I am. When we went into this not seeing the original Manchurian Candidate and even to the point where I think I vaguely knew that Sinatra was in it. So when we started it and I was like, wait a minute, is that Frank Sinatra? Is he our lead and Right. Really? The hyperloop. [00:15:52] Speaker B: Yeah. I had just kind of like, obviously, you know, just in passing from knowing we were gonna do this movie and sort of just knowing about the movie. I knew he was in it, did not realize he was the main character. And then it sent me down this rabbit hole of like, how many movies was Frank Sinatra the main character in? And it's like very, very slim, very short list. Like, this movie is an anomaly kind of. [00:16:15] Speaker A: There's like. I think I've only seen sinatra lead in one. One other film. And I think it's like, wow, late 60s, early 70s. The tender trap, I believe is like a Debbie Reynolds Sinatra film that was like a random TCM watch where I was like, is that Frank Sinatra? And then just kept watching. But what's. It's to me just going right into mentoring candidate in terms of the premise of it being about a hypnotized POW who is being tasked to be a communist spy in the States after he's basically. He's brought back. It's Raymond Shaw who's considered a hero among the military because he saved his entire crew except for two. Saved all that he could brought him back. He's got a medal of honor and basically has carte blanche to whatever he wants to do with his life. He ends up working for a mog, I think, like a journalist, like a newspaper in New York. And then you Find out. Well, damn it. He's been hypnotized by the communists and there's a plan surrounding him. And Sinatra is his. Hilariously, Sinatra is not supposed to be his buddy because, like, I think it's introduced very early on that they do not like each other because I think in hypnotized state, they ask Shaw who would he like to kill? And the first person he says, I think is Marco. [00:17:42] Speaker C: Yes. [00:17:44] Speaker A: I always think it's funny. Funny how the film is like, the film doesn't really happen if they just let Shaw hypnotize Shaw, kill the person he wants to kill first. If they had just killed Marco, this wouldn't have happened. But the. It's. This movie was so fascinating in terms of the paranoia aspect, because I was not expecting halfway through this movie to become, in my opinion, more interesting when it becomes a character drama in the internal paranoia that surrounds Shaw as a character when you get to finally know him more. Because a weird thing too is that in the first 30 to 45 minutes, which I don't know if you guys have seen the poster or any of the trailers for this film, it is hilarious how it's just like if you miss the first five minutes, you don't understand what's gonna happen. And it's like the first five minutes is honestly the most straightfor forward. Like, I was confused initially when I watched those first five minutes. I was like, wait, is this how we're starting this? So it's funny to think of that. But the first 30 to 45 minutes is really just like breaking down the hypnotist aspect of it, which I think is. Shows really how interesting Frankenheimer is his director in terms like the whole Ladies Club, the old Ladies Flower Club is how they see. Is how they see the communist rally or the like, the kind of the meeting. [00:19:16] Speaker B: I love the way Frankenheimer transitions us into that space. Like, I was so confused at first, you know, because they just kind of like open on the Ladies Flower Club thing and there's just these soldiers sitting there in the. In the room with all these older women. [00:19:33] Speaker A: I also, I mean, I love. [00:19:35] Speaker B: And then, you know, just that pan around where Frankenheimer just kind of changes the entire set on you. And it's just awesome. [00:19:44] Speaker C: Really cool. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Love the little details. Because another thing too that's like, interesting about the movie is the. The initially you think the film is going to be like half Shaw, maybe realizing that he's been brainwashed, while Marco, played by All Blue Eyes himself, Frank Sinatra, has to constantly Prove that he is not crazy by trying to find evidence for the fact that the hypnotist. Hypnotism happened. And it comes through a soldier who writes a letter to Shaw. And then Marco sees that letter and goes, okay, see, I'm not fucking crazy. That guy's. That guy's dream sounds exactly the same as mine. But what I really loved and I think shows just how Frankenheimer is just tuned into even the smallest details. I love the fact that James Edwards, who plays that soldier, that's the only black soldier in their company. And in that scene, when you see it from his perspective, all the old women are black. [00:20:46] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. It's like, okay, that makes. [00:20:49] Speaker A: That makes sense. Because if they're hypnotized, they're seeing something that is supposed to calm them. Why would a black man in the 60s be comfortable in a room with old white ladies? [00:20:57] Speaker C: Right? [00:20:57] Speaker A: And so it's fascinating to be like, that's so awesome. Who'd be fucking thinking about that? It's 62, probably shooting it. And I was like, really liked little moments like that. And, you know, the film has moments where the communists. One in particular, he's like the head. I cannot pronounce his name, but I will tell you because I had to find out. This man, it's Dr. Yen Lo is the character's name. He basically just like, writes down, you know, Raymond Shaw has, like, an American supervisor who's going to keep them with all, like, his little missions and stuff and yada yada. This actor is not Asian in the slightest. I will say, in classic 60s fashion, both prominent. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Oh, Asian. Are you talking about Chunjin? The like. [00:21:44] Speaker A: No, no, no. That's that helper. No, that. The helper is. Yeah, the helper is also not Asian. He is Sicilian, Spanish, which is. No, but the Dr. Yin Low. The doctor that is leading kind of like the hypnotism. [00:21:57] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:21:58] Speaker A: He is Egyptian and Sudanese, apparently. It's just. It was because, like, he shows up later, he shows up in seconds for, like, a brief moment, that same actor, right? So I was like, hold on, I need to look up. It's cool that he's back for another one of these movies, but I need to make sure this man, is he actually Asian? And the answer. [00:22:18] Speaker B: His birth name. His birth name is Kenneth Dickerson, which is not at all what his, like, public name is, stage name is. [00:22:28] Speaker A: No, but I mean, it's like, wow. I. I was tuned in, getting ready just to have like, this whole, like, Frank Sinatra is just going to be sweaty and Paranoid the entire time. Raymond Shaw lives his best life until, like, they connect at some point. But I never really expected that. Sinatra gets, like, his. You know, gets his proof so early on that he's able to just be a normal person. And then we have that grounding of the protagonist through Sinatra. Then we have for the next, like, hour, hour and 45, hour and 15, maybe, we have a character drama that honestly makes the paranoia aspect genuinely emotional. When you actually get to know Shaw more as a person and realize that, like, the amount of paranoia surrounding, like, is this man still here? Like, because that could be the whole thing. You could see a version of this film where you're wondering, is Shaw even remotely aware of what he's doing? And then you get an. Then you get that answer pretty quickly, like, no, but he could be. And to really just like, get kind of lull you into a sense of security by being able to make him be more of a human being and then make him just do terrible things and then be like, well, I don't know where we go from here other than like, just either we tell him or we shoot him. And I feel like we should just let him know and just. I was not expecting, like, the hat, like, because pretty much after, like, the 30, 45 minute mark, most of the communists, like, antagonistic force that we kind of see early on does not show up again. They just, like, kind of, like, leave the film. We don't even see. We don't even really see secret agents that are actually communists for the most part, after a certain point, except for one in particular, which we definitely need to get into because I think this person steals the show, in my opinion. But I. It's. It just was like the fact that, like, all right, we're going to tell you how the hypnotism works and how the secret agent stuff works, and we're gone, everything's fine. And it's like, they just, like, do not show up again. And then they're just like a. Which again, does add to the paranoia because you're just kind of wondering, are they gonna show? Is one of them gonna show up in a crowd? Is, like, Dr. Yen gonna pop up somewhere? Is Choon Jin, after he has his little bra with Sinatra, is he gonna pop up again? Which again, when Choojin gets his ass beat a little bit, doesn't really show up again. He kind of just like. They talk about him off screen, but Sean just keeps him as a driver. Even after Sinatra has that scuffle with. [00:25:27] Speaker C: Him, but he gives him the day off. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Yes, he does. And then he just, like, assume. He gets. We just assume from that point forward, every day they talk, he just has a day off. Yeah. But it really was just like, getting to see the. The real connection between Sinatra and Harvey, which. Lawrence Harvey is very good in this movie. Like, I think he's just like. [00:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Especially when it goes into, like, he has his whole speech where he's like, you know, I'm not a lovely man. I know people don't really like me. And it's like. It's just like the way he's this. It's like, man, this poor guy is way too aware now. I'm just sad on multiple levels for this man. And you get this aspect of the. God, the political aspect of Harvey. Of Shaw's stepfather and his mother and the Angela Lansbury. Okay, yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker C: Let's just get incredible. [00:26:25] Speaker A: She is. [00:26:26] Speaker B: She's a monster. [00:26:27] Speaker A: She's the part. She is the person that I think steals this film from me because I think Sinatra is good. I think Sinatra is good. I think Shaw is really good. And I think Janet Lee is here. But I think she's a lot of fun. [00:26:41] Speaker B: It's like she kind of shows up. [00:26:43] Speaker A: I literally thought she was going to be a sleeper agent because my God, really shows what raw charisma is like, where this man is sweating on a train and she will not let him go. Go. [00:26:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Literally, like, please leave me alone. I need to breathe. And she's like, here's my number. Please call. It's like, damn. [00:27:05] Speaker C: I'd read that she, like. She struggled a lot with, like, how. Just nothing. The character was like, how. She's just like, not. Yeah. And I want to say that maybe I read that in the. In the remake, there's, like. There's hints that she's like a sleeper agent in the remake, but I don't think. Or maybe there was something that was cut from this version that was. That implied that. But yeah, she didn't really have much to work with. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Well, I know in the remake, which I would honestly say for the remake's choice is like, the best decision a remake can make is the fact that they combine the stepfather role with the Lansbury role. [00:27:47] Speaker C: Oh, interesting. [00:27:47] Speaker A: I believe it's. Meryl Streep is the dual role. [00:27:51] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [00:27:52] Speaker A: As like, a senator who's also Shaw's mother. [00:27:57] Speaker C: Okay. [00:27:57] Speaker A: Played by Leif Schreiber in that film. He's Raven Shaw in that film. And Nice. Yeah. Lansbury is just like, as soon as it is again, if it's not clear enough that we're going to spoil all. [00:28:10] Speaker C: Three of these films. [00:28:11] Speaker A: This is. Should be your warning about this. When it's revealed that Lansbury is Shaw's advisor for the communists. Is her like kind of like the boss that. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:23] Speaker A: Opens so many fucked up doors in a way that is just like. This has gotten so much more interesting than what I ever thought it was going to be. And her performance, my God, it is when it snaps into it because she's great already before. When she's just evil. Mom. [00:28:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:44] Speaker A: When she is just like heartless. [00:28:46] Speaker C: Heartless, evil, optimistic. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:28:49] Speaker A: That blonde is a liberal. You can't marry her, dump her now. Energy like that early thing is like enough. Like that's Lansbury is doing a great job there. But just to see her when she makes that turn. And just like her whole conversation in the study where it's like, I can't believe they turned. I. They turned you because of me. When you find out that Shaw wasn't turned solely because he is like the major and like the leader of the group. It was. He was mainly due to fuck with Angela Lansbury's character who's been a secret agent this whole time. It is like, Jesus, he didn't, didn't have. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Well, and the fact that, the fact that that is like her entire perspective is like, oh, oh, they fucking lobotomized my son to get back at me. [00:29:43] Speaker C: What an inconvenience. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Like, I mean that's just the part where it's like I really loved because again, I knew the Manchurian. Manchurian Candidate, you know, aspect of it all of just like code words that kind of like awaken the sleeper agency. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Never. It makes so much sense that it's just a really plain phrase like, would you like to play some solitaire? But like it was not what I was expecting. And I love the fact that like how it's introduced to Marco, how it's kind of accidentally activated at that moment later on as well as how it's activated at the Lansbury reveal. The Lansbury reveal is phenomenal. And I also love that the thing that snaps Shaw out of it after that reveal is like written down is the dumbest thing ever, which is the love of his life is wearing a queen of diamonds. Yeah, love that genuinely. Because like at least it gives Shaw like two days of normalcy because he, before he kills his fiance and his fiance, his wife's dad. But it's, I mean it's because that point for cuz to me, I think this movie is like a strong three point. Like three and a half out of five for the majority. I'm really enjoying it. It's. It's gearing up and I'm like, I'm really. I'm digging. I'm digging. And then in my opinion, the ending. I think all three of these films endings are incredible. I think are like some of the best parts of all three of these films in different ways. And then with this one, because again, it's like, this is, I feel like a great example. And I know it's hard to really get people nowadays a lot of times into black and white films just because we have been so spoiled with just gorgeous, beautiful colored film for decades and decades and decades. But, like, I think this is. This film is a great example of why we should always have her credits at the beginning of the film and get it out of the way. Because it was so much fun watching all three of these films and just being curious and being like, how much time do we have left? Like, and having, you know, in modern time, like, in modern sense, the last 10 minutes of any film is like, credits, if anything, right? So to see that, like, the rally that this film is like, prepping up for, like, the assassination that's about to happen. There's eight minutes left. [00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:07] Speaker A: And they're getting to it. And you're like, oh, my God, how are they gonna tie this up? And you get to it and you. To me, this film becomes an easy 4 out of 5. When you see the shot of Raymond Shaw with the gun in his hand and his Congressional Medal of Honor around his neck, right? That is the shot that I think is pitch perfect. Shocked the shit out of me in a way where it's like, God damn, that's how we're going to end this. We're going to end with this man being completely being like, oh, he's out of this. He's out of the loop. Oh, shit, he's out of the loop. What are we going to do? And to be honest, you could probably say you could cut the last kind of Frank Sinatra bit of the ending of him. Like, kind of like having to talk out his grief with Shaw. But even then, I kind of loved some of the lines that Mark Lake Sinatra has where he's talking about, you know, soldiers that got the Grisham Medal of Honor, talking through why they got it and how, you know, what most people would say is, like, why they're esteemed, why they got it, which branch? And then, of course, he does it for Shaw because to him, Shaw is a hero that still deserves that medal. Now in the most sad way possible, the very beginning of the film being like, I don't know why this man will get the medal of honor. I don't like this guy. And the fact that they keep saying that I like it really ticks me off and freaks me out because I don't like him to like Sinatra being like he's the best damn man of all of us. Like to have that kind of transition like does work to an extent, but like just that look, just that shot of like Shaw's tired, desperate look. [00:33:57] Speaker B: Yeah, he's just gutted, totally scooped out from the inside. Well, and it's, you know, like you said, that ending kind of elevating the whole thing. It's just funny how for, I don't know, maybe the first half of the movie it really feels like just kind of a, you know, a pulpy political thriller spectacle. You know, we've got cartoony communists pulling the strings, you know, Raymond jumping in a lake, you know, and Sinatra chasing after him. Just like kind of, kind of goofy things. Like really, I mean relatively light hearted and upbeat antics for a movie of this subject matter that I kind of just expected it to continue that way. And then yeah, once he, once Shaw like meets the love of his life and then that goes south and then you know, he makes it to the rally and that goes really south. You know, it's just wild how dark the movie goes. And honestly, you know, not going to like out myself as a, you know, a pleb here, but like as my one other Frankenheimer touchstone really. You know, it reminded me of Grand Prix how that movie is just like go, go, go racing spectacle. [00:35:21] Speaker A: Woohoo. [00:35:21] Speaker B: And then the ending is just like, man, that sucks. [00:35:26] Speaker A: You didn't like the part where Sinatra races to find out where a map is for the stadium as he tries to figure out where, where Shaw could be in his little eagle's nest. The fact that like again and it's great with tension, but the fact that a lot of the, the ending literally is Sinatra with one of, yeah, just being like, I don't know, what about that corner up there? He's gotta have a sniper somewhere in that corner. And I mean you're not wrong. I do think like throughout the film it is funny how like there is energy of like once Marco has like, see, I have proof. I'm not crazy. All my, all these people are having the same dream. So clearly there is a correlation to this. After that it Is always funny when, like, they would find new pieces of information. And Sinatra, who knows probably without a shadow of a doubt that Shaw has killed other people easily. He still goes by himself every single time to make sure to see if it actually works. Or I think the funniest. It still works, but I think one of the funniest moments is, like, after he gets. Shaw gets back from his wedding with his girlfriend, literally barely leaves the room, and then Sinatra pulls her aside and goes, hey, just so you know, I think you're. [00:36:42] Speaker C: He's lost his mind. [00:36:45] Speaker A: It's just like, he might be a sleeper agent. Don't worry about it. I'll try to figure that out. Like, Frank, you could bring back up. If you think this is gonna go bad, you can wait. Have someone watch him. It's always a surprise. [00:37:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:05] Speaker C: He might be a sleeper agent. No. Congratulations, by the way. Enjoy your honeymoon. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Just keep an eye on him. [00:37:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Don't ever. Don't let him leave your sight. Like the dog, right? It does have, like, a bit of that, like, silliness to it. [00:37:24] Speaker C: Yeah. And, like, the jumping in the lake thing, that kind of. That. That's a part where I. It kind of stretched my suspension to disbelief a little bit, which is ridiculous because the whole movie has a lot. Like, I didn't question much of anything else in the movie, but, like, just the. The way that it's written, the way that it's just like, he had, like, the guy just happens upon the. The phrase, like, oh, you know, you're playing poker. Why don't you play solitaire? And then comes back and is like, you know, why don't you go jump on a lake or something? It felt very, like, stilted and, like, very, very much like, oh, we need this to. To move. Move the plot a little bit. [00:38:03] Speaker B: A little like a contrived scenario to get him in peril. Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Again, for a film that has tense moments and has moments and is a drama, it is a thriller. I will say that I think the funniest moment in this movie, whether meant to be or not, is when they tell Shaw that he has to kill, like, the youngest guy in their team, like, strangle him. And Shaw goes the long way around and, oh, yeah, ties Marco. He goes, can you please move? And he's like, oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. And just, like. Just weirdly, like, silly that it's, like, weird. [00:38:39] Speaker B: It's such a good detail to communicate, like, how, you know, deeply entranced these guys are that they, like, you know, they just think it's another day, another task. [00:38:51] Speaker A: It's great. It's a great movie. I think it's speaking. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Speaking of riveting, tense moments of drama, how did you guys each feel about the extended fight sequence between Marco and Chunjin? I was blown away by how long that scene went on. I was like, oh, my God. And he's like breaking out, you know, Marco Sinatra's breaking out, like karate chops and stuff. [00:39:17] Speaker C: Yeah, it made me like. It made. And this is gonna. I swear I'm not. I. I really love this movie. I really love this movie. But it felt like I just, I just thought like during that sequence I was just like, I wonder what, like the people making this. I wonder, like, what if you were to go back in time and show Frank Sinatra, John Wick Chapter four and like, just blow everyone's fucking mind? [00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I kind of had that attitude about it too. And then I just got to thinking, I was like, this is 1962. Like, how many movies can I even think of that have extended hand to hand fight scenes? American films, especially at this time. And then I started to kind of like respect the scene for committing that hard to having, you know, elaborate for the time, choreography and blocking. And I was like, man, they're really just going at it. Yeah, he's going over desks and throwing punches and kicks. [00:40:19] Speaker C: And he also apparently severely injured his pinky or something and like had pain through the rest of his life from it. Battle scars. Yep, yep. He also apparently was kind of a nightmare to work with and very. Yeah, very diva esque. Like, they had to. This is all just stuff I read in trivia. It's not anything I have in my brain. But like they. He demanded that the start time for everyday filming was like 11am because he's Frank Sinatra. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Frank the Rock Sinatra. [00:41:00] Speaker C: Yes. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Do you really think, like Sinatra looked at Frankenheimer, like when they were like, we're gonna do the fight scene today, Frank. And he's like, well, how about this? And they just came up and went, do you think. Do you think it would make sense if I like pulled karate chops out? And it's like, I don't know. Sure, it's. It was, it was very much. I mean, again, I'm in the mindset where when it comes to action films, you live in two different mindsets. It's before you've seen the alley scene in they live. When it comes to long action sequences or you live after a world where you've seen it. And so when you watch something like this. It's like they're trying. I don't know what to say. Yeah. [00:41:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:41:46] Speaker A: I, I, I, like the start of the fight. [00:41:48] Speaker B: Stands out amongst its peers. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker A: It's. And I just think it's funny. It's like the last time you really see Chunjin is after this. [00:41:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:57] Speaker A: He's just, like, gone. [00:41:58] Speaker C: And like, to the movie's credit, it's like, it's paced very well because you've got, like, these pockets of, like, violence in action. Like when, when he kills Senator Jordan and his Shaw's wife. His Senator Jordan's daughter. Like that. That was shocking to me. [00:42:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:24] Speaker B: When it's brutal, the way it's. [00:42:25] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Shot. I don't know. More. I mean, it's not graphic, but it's more direct than I would have expected. [00:42:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:36] Speaker B: You know, from. [00:42:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Of the time. [00:42:38] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:42:39] Speaker B: And Frank about it just like. Yeah. Blows a hole in that, dude. Blows a hole. [00:42:46] Speaker C: Yep. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Good lord. [00:42:48] Speaker C: Yeah. And it seeds the ending really well because, like, you think even we went through the whole deprogramming thing and everything. Like, you're thinking, like, okay, well, coming up to the end of the movie, I, like, I'd seen this many, many years ago and then rewatched it and I kind of just forgot how it ended because I like, throughout the, throughout the movie, I was like, does this movie end in a really dark way where he succeeds? And it's like one of those nihilistic, everybody loses. Communism is gonna win and America's gonna fail and everything. Or is it gonna be something else? Because I remember really liking the ending. And then when that happens, I applauded it because it is. It's just as much a good conclusion to the story itself, but also, like, it's a great, like, cap on that character dynamic between him and his mother. And like, that it's just a really well done ending. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I mean, just like him basically having no autonomy underneath her for. I mean, it's like we could guess maybe his whole life, you know, based on what we know about her then to. Yeah. Just be able to end it all without her getting a word in is pretty awesome. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah, it really. I mean, it does. It says a lot that Raymond, like Shaw, clearly dislikes his stepfather. Again, I. The thing about the Lansbury reveal that I still think is phenomenal is the fact that Lansbury is a communist with her step with, with her husband using communism, like McCarthyism as a smokescreen for actual communism happening. Yeah, it was just fucking phenomenal. But I love the fact that there is an. There is an energy of him shooting his stepfather first is almost trying to make it seem like she might be out of this. Almost to give her hope for five seconds that maybe she could get out of this, and then immediately just, like, dies. Like, the. The contempt that Harvey has every time he has to talk about his jaw's mother is phenomenal in a way where it's like, at the very beginning, you're like, wolf, not a great relationship. And then halfway through, fuck this woman. And then at the very end, you're like, honestly, be an American hero. Take out your mom. Yes. This is the route, man. I don't know what to tell you. And, yeah, I think there was a part of me, too, and especially I think is after the Pukula Paranoia trilogy where it's like. I mean, I think I kept thinking of Parallax View while watching this and being like, there is a version of this film where it's like, worst case scenario. We like that. Actually, everything that's supposed to not happen does happen. [00:45:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:51] Speaker A: But I love the fact that Frankenheimer goes for more of the kind of the emotional lose. Like, the emotional loss where it's like, technically we win in a way where it's like, the American people are never going to really know what Lansbury was doing and, like, stepfather. So that is, like, dodged a bullet there. But the fact that we lost a genuinely good man because of something that the, you know, the American people will never understand fully. It's just kind of like he has that, you know, that classic thing of, like, we won, but at what cost? And it's like, in this. It's like. I love the fact that it's like, Sinatra, I think, does a good job of kind of selling the fact that it's like, I didn't like the man, but I think he's a real good guy and he's an American hero, and he didn't deserve to go out with a sniper. Like a rifle to the head. Like, rifle. [00:46:41] Speaker B: It's. Yeah, it's. It's bleak, but not without catharsis. [00:46:47] Speaker C: Yeah. Tragic figure, but yeah. Yeah. [00:46:51] Speaker A: And there's that energy of also the paranoia still being there because of the fact that Shaw doesn't really divulge to. Right. Yo. They know. They know what they look like physically because that's how Sinatra basically gets the army on the military on his side is he basically, like, points to, like, this guy I saw at the meeting. This guy I saw at the meeting. They're like, that's Correlation with other communists that we're aware of and. Yeah, so like it's not like they don't, they're not aware of certain, like kind of key players. But I think it's the fact that like Shaw dies and it's not like there's gonna be an open investigation about the guys that did this to him. Like it's right. Like it's like, well, I guess the boys are still gonna have bad dreams. [00:47:34] Speaker C: But yeah, hey, at least there's not. [00:47:37] Speaker A: A communist in office. [00:47:38] Speaker C: I guess the, those dream sequences were just amazing. I think we already kind of touched on it. But just like beautiful, like surreal, disorienting without being disorienting. Just really, really cool. [00:47:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's also both dream sequences. Don't they end after Shaw kills both? Like it's, I think Sinatra's, I believe ends when the strangulation like fully happens. Like it kills the guy and then I think with the other soldier, I think it's when he shoots the other guy in the head, is when it knocks him out. So like, I think. So they use the dream sequences to kind of just show, you know, the deaths and how like that's the thing that sticks with them the most is the fact that like they sat next to their guys while their commanding officers shot them. [00:48:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:28] Speaker A: And yeah, I mean, Frankenheimer, I think really sells in this film as a director, which I definitely show in seconds to Crazy Gray just what he's able to get away with in a traditional sense of being like. Like we said, this is a traditional film, a traditional thriller shot, like a classic film in the 60s. But the things it gets away with in terms of certain editing choices, what it shows, like little things about like. Cuz you could think of like, you know, there's a version of this film where they don't show the strangulation at all. Like you, you see the hands come into frame, maybe they shoot it high enough that you don't see. But the fact is, right, you see him put that rope around that guy and the guy for a second comes in just like, what are you doing? And then he starts to lose air. And you see it happen is just like, how the hell do you get away with that in 62? [00:49:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:27] Speaker A: And it's like. And he keeps getting away with stuff like that to the point where it's like. I think the one thing you could, you could tell is like, maybe they had to like, you know, they probably thought could we show more of it? Maybe not is Shaw suicide. Because it cuts really fast. [00:49:43] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's away. [00:49:45] Speaker A: But what they show is like, oh, God. [00:49:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:48] Speaker A: And the cut. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Still jarring. [00:49:49] Speaker A: And the cuts. Yeah. Marco's face, where it's like, we won. Okay. [00:49:56] Speaker C: All right. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Sucks. Kind of. [00:49:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. [00:50:00] Speaker A: I. I think it's. It shows again with Frankenheimer and again it. Honestly. And, yeah, it's like Andy said, it could just be the fact that, like, we. Before this trilogy, it was Grand Prix for both of us when we think of Frankenheimer. But, like, I also think about how Grand Prix gets away with a lot. [00:50:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:15] Speaker A: I mean, especially that ending. [00:50:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:19] Speaker A: How the hell did you get away with, like, someone screaming bloody murder in, like, this big action sequence? And, like, we're gonna stop this sequence to have a traumatic moment with this character? And, I mean, mature. Get it? It was. It was. I think it definitely deserves to be the classic of these three. Not just. Just clearly because of the Sinatra of it all, as well as the fact that, you know, Frankenheimer is just a classical director in a way that, like, when you think of the 60s and political, intense, you know, paranoia thriller, this makes a lot of sense in terms of, like, a class act in that era. [00:50:58] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And absolutely. [00:51:00] Speaker A: And it's interesting, too, because I would argue, probably say this is the best of the three, in my opinion, trilogy wise. I think I'd like this one the most. But I will say the most fun I had watching a film for this trilogy is definitely Seven Days After. [00:51:15] Speaker C: Nice. [00:51:16] Speaker A: I really was shocked at how to me, when it comes to these three films, hilariously, it's not even. It's not a twist in the actual film, but it feels like a twist. And just like our viewing experiences, especially after watching Pukula last year, is that the twist of this is that it's exactly what you think it is when. When Kirk Douglas is like, I'm going to lay it out, the line, I'm gonna tell you what's happening. I think this is what's happening is basically the movie, like Frankenheimer looking at you and going, yes, this is the movie. This is what exactly you're getting. The twists and turns are not going to change the fact that this is literally about a coup that is happening that could take over the current presidency in the next seven days. And it just. It's just. It's a lot of fun. It has its issues. But I really, really enjoyed, like, in my opinion, it's worth it just for Kirk Douglas. [00:52:16] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, he's incredible. Like, the whole movie feels like so it, like, I can see, like, the little Serling isms in it, like, the way that he puts the focus on, like, Jiggs and Scott and how, like, Jiggs has a lot of respect for Scott and, like, the growth of Jordan Lyman as the president in this movie, played by Frederick March. The weight. Oh, my. Incredible. [00:52:49] Speaker A: I was not expecting him to be a bigger role. I literally. When he showed up, getting in my head, I thought that was it. Like, we weren't going to see any more president. Yeah, it was going to be mainly Kirk the whole time, but, like, no, he is prominent. And, like. [00:53:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just. It's amazing to see, like, this. This character is the. As the president having, like, a ridiculously low, like, approval rating. Everyone is kind of against him to the point where they're gonna overthrow him, essentially. To see his growth throughout the movie and, like, when it ends on him basically being the bigger man and not. Not sinking down to, like, get in the dirt, he's like. He actually has, like, a backbone, and he's like, I'm gonna fight you on this and all of that. Just, like, there was something just so beautiful and hopeful about that. And, like, here's a small anecdote, if you guys will indulge me. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:53:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:53:45] Speaker C: The first time I saw this movie was in the summer of a little year called 2020. And there is a lot in this movie that just feels, like, not prescient or anything, but it just feels, like, certain relatability and, like, relatability to just, like, the idea of, you know, very, very unpopular president. Very much like, all of these different machinations going on in the government. And seeing it now again post. Yeah. In 2025, while we're in the midst of another fucking Trump administration after a literal, like, insurrection happened. Like, seeing like this, it's just it, Like, I came away from it thinking. Thinking, like, God, it is so refreshing to see, like, a movie about government, people in government who actually give a shit about the Constitution and the. Like, the power of the. Of the people in the office and everything, and just. I don't know, I had, like, a whole spiral in this movie this time around. [00:55:02] Speaker B: I mean, just that the premise of this movie out, you know, removed from the context of what's going on in the world right now or going on in America right now. Yeah, it's a premise that feels kind of, like, almost ludicrous or almost like something more you'd read about, like, ancient Greek or Roman history, you know, the betrayal of Caesar and things like that, you know, just not something you hear about a lot in modern political upheaval and things like that, but then to be watching it in this modern context and it feeling so parallel to. To. To what's going on right now is both sad, but also, like, compelling and cathartic and like, oh, my God, We. You know, this story was being told in the 60s. [00:55:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:00] Speaker B: You know, and here we are living and living it out. Not. Not exactly, obviously, but. Yeah. It's just crazy. I mean, Frankenheimer and Serling were. They were on some shit they were cooking. [00:56:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:13] Speaker A: This is. This is. Yes, I. It is. Again, it is very much you. We get it, especially the three of us. I feel like it is a lot of people who, like, constantly watch movies, as much like currently, now, too, is like, you get a lot of times where people go, like, man, they don't make them like this. [00:56:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:56:35] Speaker A: More. And it's like just watching this movie and how, like, the big climax, really, of this movie, or like the big, like, I guess the action sequence of this movie, quote unquote, would be. Is just Burt Lancaster and Frederick March just like, going at it verbally in the Oval Office. And it's like, you don't see this as much anymore. Right. It's like, I would watch so many of these, in a way. Yeah. Now, like. [00:57:05] Speaker C: Even. Even a movie like. Like Conclave, that is kind of similar in terms of just being very talky and everything like that. I feel Conclave. I'm not gonna spoil it or anything, but Conclave is kind of built around, like, a kind of surprise at the end that, like you guys said before, this movie is like, this is the movie. Like, this is. This is what's going on. There's no, like, compunctions about, like, what is actually happening or anything. It's like, no, it's. These people are gonna. Like, we set out why people don't like Lyman. We set out why they want to. Want to take over. And what's also amazing as well is that it's all based on, like, nuclear disarmament and everything. And. Yeah, there's a whole other thing with that as well that's just really fascinating for. For the time. And. Yeah, it's just. It's. I don't know, maybe it's because, like, these movies all, like, are in. In the midst of, like, the Cold War and everything, that it's. Maybe that's why they're so just like, frantic with care and urgency that is just, like, so below the surface like that. You can have people just talking to one another. And you feel that tension in the air throughout, like, every scene. It's. It's insane. [00:58:31] Speaker B: I mean, just. Just the ability of all of these movies to lay their premises out so plainly in the opening minutes of the film and then put you through two hours of, you know, enduring that premise. And it's riveting and shocking and intense and at times emotional and sad without really ever having to resort to, like, twists. I mean, obviously in Candidate has a twist or two in there. [00:59:00] Speaker C: Sure. [00:59:01] Speaker B: And Seconds, you know, at the end kind of has a shocking finale. But, you know, for most of those movies, I mean, the engagement rides entirely on. I know what this movie is about and what it's doing, but I'm just invested in how these characters are navigating it. [00:59:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:26] Speaker A: I mean, really. I guess the closest thing to a twist you could really get to. And it really isn't. But it's the fact that it's like, how far is Scott in his side willing to go? Where it's like. Because again, it's like Martin Balsam, who. Gosh, every time I see this man, he's, of course. Oh, my God, I'm a bit biased because he is a part of 12 Angry Men, which is one of my favorites of all time. Another film where I go, gosh, if only I could be 50 and just do this. This is one of the. I mean, Seven Days of May has. The energy was like, God, if I was just. I would love to do this story if I was, you know, older. But like Martin Balsam being basically clearly killed to hide the fact that he has the only real evidence on paper that Scott is trying to. The. Scott is trying to do a coup with government money in just doing a very. In doing an insurrection. He's absolutely. And doing it in truly the most sinister way, which is not even like trying to bash, you know, a stone to a rock and like, bash like a bat to a rock and hopefully it breaks. He's literally trying to take over communications to really stop the flow of a free market to see and let people decide, which is again, like. [01:00:46] Speaker C: It's just. [01:00:48] Speaker A: There's. There's so many moments, I think, that there's like, to me, the ending of the film, the last 20 minutes of the film is just like, just bangin. It's just. It's clearly just like, I'm on board. But before then, what really sold me. And it's so silly to say out loud, but it truly is. But what sells me on the movie early on is when Kirk Douglas is talking to Lyman and Balsam's in the room. And, like, Glenn, like, Lyman's like, out with it, man. Just say it. There is a fucking turn and a push in with the camera, and Kirk Douglas does the meanest, sexiest turn to the camera and just says, I believe Scott is trying to uproot you. And, like, that is immediately where the film is just, like. To me, like, this is where it's gonna get. Like, this is where it's at its peak. In my. In my opinion, the film loses a bit of its steam. The less Kirk is involved, the less Jigs is involved. As much as I love the cast and crew, as much as I think that Lyman's dysfunctional group of people that is trying to figure out this insurrection and find proof. The Senator from Georgia is one that I did not expect to be, like, a focus point, like, a focal point at some point. But like Kirk, like his Martin Jakes, Casey is just. I love the fact that he is constantly being pushed early on in the film to choose a side, and he is constantly being pushed about, like, well, clearly you have to hate one side over the other. And he's just like. And again, the most serling shit comes out in, like, normal conversations where it's just like, ooh, this is sexy. This is sleek. This is so sassy. I love this. Keep going. And like, again, another thing, too. And it shows. Definitely shows my age. But, like, when I think of Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas, I don't have a lot of films that I've seen both of them in. Like, Kirk Douglas, to me, is, of course, the father of Michael Douglas. Like, he is. I've seen more Michael Douglas films than I've seen Kirk Douglas films. And so every time I see Kirk, I just think, that's Michael's dad. But, like, watching him in this. And also Burt Lancaster, where it's like, I can't name another Burt Lancaster film off my head at the moment. But, like, I've seen him as an icon in classic American cinema and. But, like, seeing them both, like, the last time they see each other in the movie, and they just throw. Kirk Douglas throws the meanest. I think, the meanest line that Sterling has in this movie, where it's just like, Scott is like, how's it feel to be the Judas of the scenario? And he's like. And Casey's like, I know a Judas. And he was a man that I respected and he was my boss. [01:03:40] Speaker C: And it's, like, so good. So freaking good. [01:03:45] Speaker A: Because, like, to me, like, the weakest aspect of the movie is the fact that, like, at a certain point, they don't know what to get Casey to do other than go. Go find Scott's mistress. Maybe. Maybe, you know, do. It'll be a little sweet on her. Maybe she's got some dirt. And it's like Casey's like, you can't be serious. That's what it's like. Almost like he's saying, this is what you're gonna have me do. I'm the one that gave this to you. You're not gonna let me do anything else but be. But maybe just, like, lead this woman on in the meanest way possible. And then, of course, like, yeah, that's what you're doing. And then they do it. And while I think it leads to an outcome that I think is a really good moment, that is something where it's like, God, you. You miss seeing government characters that feel like this. Like, the shot of the letters getting pulled out and then just, like, shoved back in because it's too much of a dirty. [01:04:43] Speaker C: Yeah. The idealistic way. [01:04:45] Speaker A: God, yeah. If only. If only we. [01:04:49] Speaker C: Right. [01:04:50] Speaker A: It really is a movie. And again, I think this is a movie. Movie that, like, I can understand now with people. I've seen clips or something, and they're just, like, rolling their eyes like, this is not how we. This is not the world anymore. This is not the government anymore. And it's like, yes, but it could be. There are still people like that think this way. [01:05:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:09] Speaker A: Yes. And while it feels outdated in a lot of aspects, it's still, like, it's an idealistic view that it's just like. It's such an endearing quality that unfortunately, we don't get a lot right in our. In our real life politics. So it's kind of like, this is what fiction's for, honestly, where it's like, unfortunately, this does more help now than it probably does. [01:05:35] Speaker C: Yeah. It's also, like, weirdly terrifying in a way that. Yeah, it's because it is like the. The task at hand is to basically create this narrative in this movie where the United States is going to. Like, it's a military coup. Like, it's not like a nice little stroll through the rotunda of the Capitol or anything, but. Just joking. That was fucking horrifying, and I hate all of them. But anyway, this is like an actual military operation to remove the President. Like, this is something that we know about from, like, other places that aren't the US in the modern day. But what's interesting is the way that like, when they're going after, like, the mistress and trying to get, like, dirt on him and stuff, it's like they're trying to work through this unprecedented thing, through politics and through, like, conventional methods. And it's like, it just creates this, like, mammoth, like. Like, obstacle to them. Like, how do you. How do you combat this? And, like, even when he's. Basically. When Scott is denying everything, it's like, it's the narcissist handbook thing. Like, it's just like, you know, deny, deny, deny. And, like. Like, I was just so enthralled in that because I'm just thinking, like, if. If they have no. Like, how do you prove. Like, how do you prove something that is so outlandish and so, like, out of the. Out of the realm of, like, conventional thought, that, like, the person that's perpetrating it, who has no, like, no, like, clear signal that they are aware that they are committing horrific treason and everything, like, how do you combat them? Just saying, no, I'm not doing that. No, that's not. That's not happening. You're crazy. No one will believe you. [01:07:41] Speaker A: I'm the protagonist. I'm the hero. I know. Be done. And it's like, oh, my God. [01:07:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an incredible uphill battle of a proposition to try and make that accusation. [01:07:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Foundedly it is the situation with, like, Lyman looking at him and just being like, come on. This whole time that, like, Kirk's whole character has been. Everyone's asking him, where do you stand? Where do you stand the disarmament? What do you do on this? What do you do on that? And Kirk is always just kind of, like, coyly sidestepped and been like, it's not my job to say, so quit asking. But now that the President is asking him, he basically goes like, listen, do I believe that what you're doing is the right option? Not entirely. I think it's risky. I'm kind of more on Scott's side of things. However, the way that my boss is doing it is not the way that should be done. And even though we don't see eye to eye on the disarmament, I work for you and he works for you, and this is treason. So you need to know. And I love that that's the conversation where it's like, you know, because again, it's a situation where a conversation like that is, like, it depends on the President. If it's like, if you say something, if you say, like that, if you have a Kirk Douglas moment like that with A president that's more like what we have now. Like, it's gonna like, oh, you fucking kidding me? [01:09:05] Speaker B: Like, it's being loyal immediately. [01:09:08] Speaker A: Yeah. But I think it's like, in that film, it makes it pretty clear of just, like, the thing that people constantly push, where it's like, we can have differences and still work together. And ultimately that fails a lot of the time when people say that as a smokescreen rather than an actual. Like. Like, we should have a conversation. This film, I think, again, in the most sterling way possible, makes it feel real. And it's like, this is how it should be done. You have two people who are clearly on different sides of the spectrum. But it is not black and white. Even though the film is black and white. It is. It is gray. It's a gray area where if you can find the right aspect, which is help my boss committing treason, and you're my boss's boss, we should figure this out. [01:09:50] Speaker C: Right? [01:09:52] Speaker A: You can find, like, kind of a middle ground where you can kind of discover why the disarmament is important. Why having the conversation about military and civilian, like, a big thing, too, is, like, a lot of the time in this movie, like, civilian is almost used like a dirty word. Like, every time when Alignment's crew shows up, which, again, most Alignment's crew is, like, senators and government of, like, government officials or work for the government. And yet they say civilian. Like, they want to spit the word out of their mouth every time because there's, like, this hierarchy, this feeling that, like, because they're not military, they couldn't understand peace or wanting true peace and prosperity. And that's what leads to, like, you know, again, the great Lancaster March. Like, kind of like conversation where it's like, you know, like, Lancaster throws out. Well, you're making us look weak. If we, you know, disable all the bombs, like, what if they don't do it? And he goes, you think we're gonna look any stronger if you overthrow me? It's gonna make us look worse. Like, it's gonna make us look weak because we can't have a democratic scenario with this. You can't wait. You can't wait until the next election to fight me. You have to force it. What does that say? And it's like, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, I know I joked earlier about a sor. Conversion of this film, but, like, I feel like, you know, it is something where it has that west. Like, what West Wing kind of embodied in its best moments. [01:11:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:11:27] Speaker A: In the 90s and just like wanting more of that, but at the same time not feeling like it's preachy, which is. [01:11:35] Speaker C: Right. [01:11:35] Speaker A: Which is a hard thing for a Sorkin project now. [01:11:39] Speaker C: Right. [01:11:40] Speaker A: So it's great to have Frankenheimer and I think Frankenheimer and Sterling mix and have Sterling be able to have these points come across without it feeling like Serling is grabbing the camera and putting it on him, being like, I know best. [01:11:52] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. And that's something he was a genius at, an absolute genius at. [01:11:58] Speaker A: These are just people trying to figure out what the they need to do. Like, this is just people be like, how do we even do this? Like, I don't. We have seven days to figure out something that could be a thing. [01:12:10] Speaker C: Like. And I. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I was just going to make a stupid joke again, but same joke I've made before. And I've been making my head for several weeks now or what feels like years now. But like, just the whole. That whole thing of, like, you can't wait until the election to fight me. Like, you can. We have a democratic process for that and everything, it just made me think, like, oh, man, I'm gonna miss that about America. I'm gonna miss that. Like, it made me think like, I'm gonna miss the Constitution when it's gone. [01:12:41] Speaker B: Right? [01:12:42] Speaker C: And, yeah, so, yeah, just my shitty thing. [01:12:46] Speaker A: No, no, no. I mean, it is hilariously. It is hard not to watch movies like this last year is hard not watching Pukula films like in this and those landscape, in that landscape and not have to think about the fact that it's like, it's hilarious how it feels like the older generation is the one that pushes like this, you know, what the current administration is fighting for is what it's always kind of felt like. And then you watch a film from the 60s like this and it's like, no, this feels more. This is the democracy that people are talking about. Like, this is something where it's like, we should really. If you put your money where your mouth is and actually watch the films that you say are really showing the thing that you think the current administration is upholding when it really is doing the complete opposite. And it's. [01:13:38] Speaker C: It's kind of like it's. It's really a shame. And this might just be my own ignorance at this and everything, but, like, I feel like until I started my anthology podcast, I was not aware Seven Days in May existed. I didn't. I was not aware this movie was a thing at all. And like, it's Just kind of. It's a little bit of a shame that. That, like, Manchurian Candidate is rightfully, like. Like you said, it's like, the classic of this trilogy. And Seconds has, like, a big groundswell of, like, people talking about it and, like, it's. It's successful. [01:14:13] Speaker B: Huge on letterboxd. [01:14:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And, like, in Seven Days in May is just, like, something that feels not necessarily obscure, but it just feels like. Like, I would. It would not have been on my radar had I not devoted a podcast to the work of Rod Serling, basically. [01:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah. It absolutely does not have the same legacy. And I think you're right. That. That is, you know, that is kind of a shame because. [01:14:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:37] Speaker B: I mean, this is. You know, this is kind of like the. The 12 angry men of these three and that it's, like, got very clear, like, statement about the current state of the culture and, you know, again, without being preachy. [01:14:55] Speaker C: Right. [01:14:56] Speaker B: It's incredibly sharp and incisive about what's going on and what could. What the country could be facing, you know, very soon. I mean, this movie opens by saying it's set in a very near future. You know, it's like, you know, it's just very on the pulse. And. And, yeah, I mean, it's sad and also kind of weirdly comforting that this movie feels so relevant now or that people, like, the issues we think we're facing now that feel new and scary are not new. And, like, people have been aware of this and observing this and calling it out for decades upon decades, you know, and it's. It's cool to watch a movie from 1964 that, you know, feels that on top of things. [01:15:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:52] Speaker B: And, you know, in the same way that, like, 12 angry men feels like it's. You know, it feels like it's making its. Its stamp on history. Like, as you're watching it, like, you can feel it being a part of history. I don't know. That's cool. So, yeah, I do wish more people knew about this movie. And like you, I. This was a title. I knew. I knew the title. Seven Days of May. Knew nothing about the film. Knew. Knew. Was not familiar with it at all until you suggested it to this trilogy to us. [01:16:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I. It's something that, like, I ended up, like, rating it a half a star higher than I did before the. When I first watched it, just because the performances, the writing, the. The. The relatability of it. [01:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:48] Speaker C: The way that. It just feels very universal in a certain way, in a certain tragic, horrifying way. While just being a damn good movie. It's. [01:17:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all three of these. And I'll expand a little bit more when we get to Seconds, because that's, I think, my favorite of the three, but nice. Which I think is funny because I think maybe we have all three different favorites. [01:17:16] Speaker C: I think so. [01:17:19] Speaker B: But, like, all three of these movies have, you know, wiggled around in my brain. Like, they've. They've just grown on me since I've watched them. Like, I watched them and I was like, okay, that's really cool. John Frankenheimer is an awesome filmmaker, but wasn't, like, in the moment, super blown away. But they just stick in my brain and rattle around, and I'm like, God damn, he really pulled that off. Like, you know, all. All these. All these not even necessarily subtle choices, but distinct choices that separate these movies from a lot of, like, similar genre films and dramas of the time and just make them feel really ahead of their time. [01:18:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're also pretty. Pretty strong dad movies, I would say. [01:18:12] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. I mean, yeah, it's. Frankenheimer just shows, especially before we get into seconds. But seconds definitely fits in this as well. Just how crucial execution can be beat for something so simple where it's like, again, my favorite moment in the movie is literally just a pan in little. Just rise. [01:18:31] Speaker B: Sorry, sorry, Logan. I just. I know you weren't trying to. But that felt like a really bad joke how, in regards to seconds, how vital execution can be. [01:18:44] Speaker A: That was not at all what I was expecting. [01:18:48] Speaker B: No, continue. [01:18:49] Speaker A: No, no, it just, like, it's. Yeah, it just shows the fact that the first two films there is, like. I think they both shine in the moments where it's not trying to be twists and turns of trying to make it seem like this is a different type of story you've seen. It's like. No, in reality, these movies excel when everyone is on the same wavelength of being like, yeah, this is the paranoia aspect in Manchurian Kennedy. This is the paranoia aspect in Seven Days about just being in a moment where you realize, am I crazy, but am I seeing a coup happen behind the scenes using horse tracks as a coup and just, like, having just really strong actors sell those moments in a way that is like, you know, in a sense where, like, I think if you try to make a remake of these films, it would be hard just to do the same type of stuff of just being, like, a strong execution. [01:19:53] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:19:54] Speaker A: It's like. It's just so stark and so striking in this movie. And you have to really, I think, amp it up in a way to the fact where, like, the. The only action, quote, unquote, like, action scene you get in this movie is a soldier not budding another soldier with the butt of its gun and just, like, holding them hostage as they, like, drive a sand dune crawler thing out of the desert. Like, there's not much there that feels crazy, like, striking. Other than the fact that, like, there's just something about how the light hits Kirk Douglas and how he's talking about, you know, we don't see eye to eye, but, man, this is not the way to do it. And you're like, yeah, I'm on board. And, like, again, the ending's the same way. The ending is literally a presidential speech that is just like, well, you know what? This is not the way we should be doing things. And just like. And the fact that, like, Scott's exit from the film is such a whimper. It's such a whimper. It is something that is so, like, Lancaster plays that so well of realizing, like, not only is he going to be ousted as a traitor, but, like, Lyman's not pushing him as an evil villain. [01:21:10] Speaker C: Right. [01:21:10] Speaker A: There's. There's a sadness and almost a pathetic energy to the fact that, like, he ever thought that he was in the right in this when, like, there's a better way to do this. How about the democratic process, you asshole? It is very much. And I mean, it's. And it's also, like, it's. I think out of the three of them, this is the one that feels the most hopeful. [01:21:35] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. [01:21:36] Speaker A: That is like, going from just a transition into our final film to go from this to seconds. [01:21:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:44] Speaker A: I made the bad decision grim. I made the bad decision of watching these back to back. I thought it was funny because I thought we. When we talked about it the last time I had heard you guys talk, I thought I was behind. So I thought, oh, if I catch up and I watch all these, like, now, maybe we'll all finally have a watch. And then I found out I beat both of you to watching all three of these. [01:22:06] Speaker C: Yes. [01:22:07] Speaker A: But, like, watching Seven Days in May and being like, all right, this movie's got me jazzed up. I'm probably gonna be thinking about this film for the rest of the week. Let's just go into that last film. He is clearly gonna be very personal. It's probably gonna be sad. But you know what? I'm ready for it. I wasn't. This movie is, like, very much of the three, I would say Like, I think you've already said Matt the most. Twilight zone Z of 100, all the way to the point where the ending genuinely feels like. Rod Serling came in, like, tied Frankenheimer up and took the camera for the last five to ten minutes to shoot. [01:22:49] Speaker C: Right. Seriously, like, it is. It would be indistinguishable from a Twilight Zone episode if I were to see just, like, the end. The end sequence. Because, like, everything about it, the screaming, the. The. The prayer, like, as we're catching up to what's happening and, like, we, like, in it, it doesn't stop. Like, it. Like, there's moments in that. Not to jump ahead to the end of the movie or anything, but, like, there are moments in that where I'm like, they could cut to black and it would be perfect. But, like, they get into the room and, like, they actually say, like, you know, he's gonna be a cadaver, and all of that. It's just like, oh, my God, it's. [01:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:30] Speaker C: In the drill. Yeah, it's. It's incredible to me. [01:23:32] Speaker A: Like, again, this will get to the full edition. But, like, when I think of how a Twilight Zone episode should end, like, especially in certain scenarios, like, the story that this is kind of telling, it needs to end in a way where even though I am not physically strapped to my chair while watching it and I'm very uncomfortable, I am mentally locked in and do not want to leave until the ending is done. Like, to me, it's like something like Eye of the Beholder is a classic of. Just, like, when that twist happens, it is uncomfortable. It feels just, like, nasty. Even though it's not nasty in any way. It's just like, how the feeling of, like, recontextualizing all the conversations we've had at this point, like, yes, it's. It's. Again, Frankenheimer is so good at just, like, taking the scripts and, like, in, you know, shot composition and whatnot and, like, having exposition dumps, which all three of these films have exposure exposition dumps and different types. The fact that this film has, like, an off, like. Like an off, like, kind of comment of, like, oh, yeah. Like, it's. You know, the. The cost of it is we have to do this. We have to find a cadaver that fits your size. And, like, it's so slick. And how it just slides that into the conversation. And then when you get to the last 10 minutes and your brain goes, fuck me. That's how they do that. And then it just doesn't let go. It just keeps Going. And it's shot. Honestly, it's shot at the end, kind of like a 70s film. The way that, like the. The POV, the like walking to the operating room, like, all that was uncomfortable in a way where it's like, well, man, if this isn't a transition to 70s paranoia thrillers, I don't know what is it Just be like this. This really much. This captivating kind of rawness of just being in like, almost like a sleep paralysis dream. Just like, I don't want to be a part of this. [01:25:37] Speaker C: That's. That's a good way to put it. I like that. Yeah. [01:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:25:40] Speaker B: I mean, it's like, yeah, I had the same thought about it being a 70s movie when watching it. I was like, did Frankenheimer have like a VIP pass to the new Hollywood? Like he got there early? Cause, yeah. So, I mean, not just the ending, the very fucking beginning of this movie is just jarring. The way it's shot. I mean, stunning, riveting. All the pov, the weird over the shoulder stuff, the frenetic editing. I mean, talk about paranoia distilled into cinematic style like this movie. [01:26:19] Speaker A: And also talk about the fact that I don't know if Goldsmith does the score for Manchurian Candidate, but at least the fact that Jerry Goldsmith does the score for Seven Days in May and then two years later does the score for seconds and the opening theme for seconds is fucking terrifying. Oh, it is uncomfortable. It's creepy. And I'm thinking to myself, this motherfucker did Seven Days in May. He did the film where it kind of ends on, like, a hopeful note, where it's like, yeah, won't give in to this. And then we get to the point where it's like, I don't like how that looks. I don't like that shot of that man's face. I don't like those bandages. This is not going to be fun, is it? Yeah. And it really gets to a point where, yeah, like, like you said, as soon as it gets into the movie, you're like, well, now I'm uncomfortable because this doesn't feel like the 60s. He said he's fully black and white, clear. I mean, again, it's a year before Grand Prix. It is insane to think that, like this in between these two, like in between a single year is like this and that. And just to have this, that's insane. [01:27:31] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and just to think, I mean, this alongside Grand Prix, just, you know, what more do you need? Like, evidence that John Frankenheimer was operating on a whole Other level, like just trying out batshit ideas and it working. [01:27:49] Speaker A: Because yeah, again, this could be a psycho kind of somatic thing from having years and years of watching different films in different decades, especially a lot of color film. But like, at least with Manchurian Candidate and Seven Days in May, both of those films are shot clearly with black and white in full mind in set design, costume design, lighting, seconds. Because the way that it runs around, it feels like it could have been shot in color, as if it had a thought in its mind that it could have been like an early color film for Frankenheimer. [01:28:25] Speaker C: Right. [01:28:25] Speaker A: Just like. Because there's just moments where it's like, you look at like, the set design of the company, like when he goes into, like the, goes into the actual office where they show him the, the fake movie where they drugged him and made it look like. [01:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah, God, yeah. [01:28:41] Speaker A: Like, and all this staged assault, which, in case, I mean, I, I, you might know this and you probably know this map, but like the, the guy that plays the lead, the middle aged banker before he becomes Rock Hudson. Yeah, that I believe if I. That is Clark Griswold's dad. It's Clark Griswold's dad in Christmas Vacation. [01:29:02] Speaker B: Really? [01:29:04] Speaker A: I had seen him before and I was like, who the hell is this guy? And then when I had that thought, I was like, oh, oh, wow. Oh, no, this poor man's not gonna have a fun time. And. [01:29:17] Speaker C: Oh, man. [01:29:18] Speaker A: But it's, it just is like, when there's just had that energy of like, the set felt different, the way that the set design felt because of course, the cinematography is different. A lot more. [01:29:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:29:31] Speaker B: Than this. [01:29:32] Speaker A: A lot less lockdown, a lot less wides, a lot more close up than I. Yeah, that is very uncomfortable. The party sequence is definitely the one where I'm just like, I don't know why you had to go that hard. [01:29:46] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [01:29:48] Speaker A: You did. And it worked. It's not like I'm saying it didn't work. It's just like. [01:29:52] Speaker B: No, right. [01:29:53] Speaker A: Get me out of the scene. [01:29:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I had the same thought. Yeah. [01:29:57] Speaker A: And yeah, it's fun because you early, you mentioned early on Andy how it's like the inverse of Akula, having this be the personal paranoia film of the three of it being about a man who literally is like, oh, fuck it, like, take $30,000, fake my death, my family doesn't need me, let me be a new man. And then just literally cannot be this new man. Because unsurprisingly. Which again, feels very much Twilight Zones esque. In terms of the Twilight Zone esque in terms of the moral of the story of just like you can be tall, you could have a new face, you can fly for all you fucking care. You're not gonna be happy with yourself if you're not just gonna, like. [01:30:43] Speaker C: It's the. Be careful what you wish for. And all of this stuff with, like, your own personal. By the way, my pitch for the remake trilogy of this would be a Different man, actually. They have a lot of similarities, I would say. [01:31:01] Speaker A: Sure, I can see that. [01:31:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:31:03] Speaker B: But A Different man is a lot less bleak. Disturbing. [01:31:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:31:09] Speaker B: Oh, I agree, absolutely. Like, subject matter and. [01:31:13] Speaker A: And you're right, man. I think Adam Pearson would make Seconds a lot more fun. Yes. [01:31:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. [01:31:19] Speaker A: Could you imagine a version of Seconds where instead of finding the woman on the beach, it's Adam Pearson. [01:31:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:31:24] Speaker A: Just has a best friend. [01:31:27] Speaker B: Like, keep. Keep Sebastian Stan away from the Tony role because he's way too good at anguish. Screams, nightmares. [01:31:36] Speaker A: God. [01:31:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:31:38] Speaker A: And a very similar thing too with, like, the other films of, like, especially Seven Days where it's like, I don't have a lot of Rock Hudson filmography. [01:31:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:46] Speaker A: So seeing him in this film and just being like, a gorgeous man. Because again, I think for a lot of. Especially with our generation, it's like Rock Hudson is one of the early actors who is like, became, like, came out as gay and had aids and was one of the first big stars to really show people that the AIDS epidemic was more of a serious thing than people knew. And it's like, that's how I knew. That's how I was. That's how I found out about Rock Hudson growing up. And then it literally was like, years after that, I was like, oh, he's an actor. He's in movies. So that's why he's so popular. That's why people. That's the impact. And it's so like, to now get to a point where I finally watch a Rock Hudson film. And the man is so good. He's so good at this movie and is able to really capture John Randolph, like, playing a man inside a man, even though it's the same body, but, like, really just, like, playing up, like, this is how. Because his name is. Is it Tony Jones? [01:32:50] Speaker C: Tony Wilson. Yeah. [01:32:52] Speaker A: And Antis. [01:32:53] Speaker B: Antiochus. [01:32:54] Speaker A: Antiochus Wilson. Tychus Wilson. Tony Wilson. And. [01:33:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:33:01] Speaker A: I mean, it's like. It just is very much to me in terms of the paranoia aspect of all three of these. I think this is the one where it's like, you can Guess early on where it's gonna pop up and be like, this is where it's probably gonna start being real rough. And the movie, really, Frankenheimer just. Really just like, what are you talking about? He paid the money, he's learning how to paint, Everything's fine. He may. He might have some new friends. He's got a new. He's got a butler, kind of. He met this nice girl on the beach. Nothing could really make him feel like he's not living a real world. It really just like. And then it leads to an. Arguably one of the weirdest scenes of all three of these films, which is the festival scene. Yes, the festival scene, where I was not expecting not only to see as much handheld camera work, I was not expecting to see as much boobs and Bush compared to the other two movies, which, like, I was like, I just saw Old Blue Eyes, like, two days ago, and, like, Manchurian. Now I'm just watching these people make wine. [01:34:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:34:16] Speaker A: As Rock Hudson, scared in the corner, watching all these hippies get naked. [01:34:21] Speaker C: Just like that. That weird almost out of body sort of experience that he has of, like, not fitting in, not. Not like, being comfortable in that. That's what made me think of a different man this. This time watching it. But, like, just like that kind of weird, like, discomfort that he has goes such a long way. And I do want to kind of amend what I said before. Seven Days in May. It's interesting because in terms of the public consciousness, I feel like Seven Days in May is the more obscure of these three, but Seven Days in May was nominated for two Oscars and four Golden Globes. And Seconds was nominated for. For one Oscar in no Golden Globes, apparently, which. Seconds was nominated for cinematography, which very much deservedly so, I would say so for sure. [01:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:35:21] Speaker A: So Seven Days of May didn't win its Oscars, right? [01:35:23] Speaker C: No, no. [01:35:25] Speaker A: How do we all feel that Emilia Perez is probably gonna have more Oscars than Seven Days of May? [01:35:31] Speaker C: No. Jesus. [01:35:31] Speaker A: How do we feel about that? [01:35:33] Speaker C: Do we want to talk about that? [01:35:34] Speaker A: No, we don't have to. It's fine. No, I mean, yeah, it's. Again, yeah, we can only talk about watching these films now. Like. Yes, like, in terms of, like, how we felt watching this and hoping that, like, you know, we haven't heard about them outright. But then again, Frankenheimer's career is vast. Man was making films for 50 years, if not more. And so it's just like he. There's. I mean, probably could throw a stone in a river and find A fish that likes a Frankenheimer film you've not heard of. And I mean it. But it really says. I mean it makes it pretty clear which of these three is probably the most underground. By the fact that hilariously, this is the only Criterion release of the three of these which really has that energy of like. Okay, yeah, I can get that. This feels very experimental in a way that is like kind of fascinating that this is a director who did the Manchurian Candidate four years prior to this. [01:36:34] Speaker C: Yes. [01:36:34] Speaker A: Like, and had this energy of. I mean it's a Paramount film though too. It's a studio if I remember correctly. Because like there's a part of me that was like, okay, this is Criterion. Does like, do they go through like an old distributor that didn't. Because it was like a Paramount picture. Like, oh my gosh, he was really pulled out the stops to get this one out. And I mean it's. It just is striking in a classic sci fi way without it feeling. Yeah. In that way we're like. Yeah. Understandably like Twilight Zone where it's like literally a lot of its sci fi concepts are done off camera or like very little, very much. So like it's not. It's no aliens, no. No futuristic stuff or it's like, could be like a not too future, you know, yada yada. But like. [01:37:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:24] Speaker B: No elaborate high tech sets or anything. [01:37:27] Speaker C: Right. [01:37:27] Speaker A: And I, And I think there's like a fascinating part because again, there's a way that I think you can do something kind of like this and be closer to like a parallax view where it has more of just like a. You fake your own death, but they don't do any of the reconstructive. They literally just take you to a different. Different country. [01:37:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:37:43] Speaker A: Do that and whatnot. But like the sci fi aspect like I think is phenomenal because I think it gives. Takes away the humanity in certain situations that needs it interject, like injected back in. It leads to some of the scariest people in this film being the ones that of course are just human beings acting like monsters. Like I, Again, I. This is my personal opinion. The scariest person in this entire film is the guy. [01:38:14] Speaker B: Is the guy who eats the chicken. [01:38:18] Speaker A: Yes. No, it's the guy who runs. It's the old man that runs the company. The sweetest old man you've ever seen. But just his aura when he pops into the room and you're like, you weren't here when we walked in. When I walked with the camera. You weren't on that Couch. Where the fuck did you come from? [01:38:39] Speaker B: Well, he's just got that ghoulish smile on his face the entire time, which. [01:38:45] Speaker C: Was that Edgar Stolly? Because in the credits he's credited as being the Taylor Presser man or something. Or Taylor Shop presser. So I don't know if that was him or not. Or old man Will Greer. I think it was Wool gear. [01:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:39:04] Speaker C: Okay. Anyway, because I was having like a. Like a mental crisis thing. Like, Edgar Stolly was in this because I love him and like, he's been in. He was in a couple of Twilight Zone episodes, but at least one. But also Murray Hamilton popping up at the end as Charlie. He's the mayor from Jaws. [01:39:24] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [01:39:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When it popped up, I was like, I know that guy. [01:39:30] Speaker C: Yeah. But that whole, like, the. The way that the movie is very much. It feels like a very much grounded sci fi story in the sense that it is. It is a. It is an outlandish proposition, but it is presented in such a way that feels like it is organic to the world that we're in. It feels like it is something that, if you, like, if you question it, yeah, it's ridiculous. It's a John Woo thing from Face off, basically, that sort of thing. But having it be plastic surgery and do all of these things to really sell the new person, but then having it. You're right. It could have been something that is grounded in reality without the sci fi stuff and be a straightforward paranoid thriller, but the sci fi angle just enriches it so much. It's one of the reasons why I love science fiction so much. The fact that you bring it in to a sci fi landscape and that allows the movie to have that incredibly bleak, horrific ending where it is this weird statement on, unlike capitalism, I guess. And like, like the company itself, like, this is the way that we survive. Like, we are. You need to sponsor someone. And then you see the other side of it with Charlie, that he's been stuck in this room for days and however long. And it's just like. It's this weird, like just uneasy just feeling. You get that. It's just. It's such. It. It's. It's incredible. And like when he says, like, when. When he's like saying, like, well, why, Like, I need to talk. Like, I didn't know this was gonna happen so fast. I need to talk about, like my new life and everything. And it's just like, oh, no, it's. It's fine. We're good. We'll talk to you about it. It's all about efficiency. And it's like, yeah, that's a very efficient way to do the job. It's like. It's wild. [01:41:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it reminds me. I mean, this movie reminded me a lot of, like, Severance in its approach to sci fi, where it's like, we're taking this concept that's kind of like, well, anybody's daydreamed about, like, you know, getting a new lease on life and, you know, if I could just flip a switch and be a new person or whatever, that'd be cool. Kind of like Severance is like, we go to work and we're a totally different person at work and come home and it's, you know, just taking a really ludicrous sci fi premise and centering it around just such a quintessential, like, ubiquitous lived experience is so cool. I love that kind of stuff. And that's, you know, what Twilight Zone's all about and why. [01:42:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:42:27] Speaker B: Much like it. [01:42:28] Speaker A: And having little things that you would think about, like, you wouldn't think is like a kind of a scary moment. But like, in something like in Severance, where it's like, there's moments in Severance, which, again, I'll make it clear I'm not finished with season one. [01:42:41] Speaker B: I'm not caught up, but I Season. [01:42:43] Speaker A: One right now, and it's a banger. But there's like, there's a scene in Severance where a character sees that they have dirt under their fingernails and they cannot remember how they got that. Or like, someone coming to work and being sick and not realizing why they're sick. Or like, people like, being judged by something that they cannot control, which is scary. Being like that. Like, oh, there's a part of me that I have no recollection of. Control. And it's like the same kind of simple mentality of every time Rock Hudson looks in a mirror and just has this moment of like, that's not me. Like, he tries his absolute best to be like, oh, I guess this is me. I'm Tony Wilson. Tony Wilson. It's like, no, you are not. Wow. [01:43:28] Speaker B: I was kind of impressed. Impressed by how he kept his composure when he went to visit his wife. Oh, yeah, yeah, Wife. I guess, like, just wild. Like, what a. What an out of body, literally out of body experience to go and, you know, just be pretending that you were. I knew him. He was an old friend or whatever. [01:43:51] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's why I think that's a credit to the. To the script as well. Is that. I really feel like that. That scene coming so close to the end of the movie. Like, I was thinking. [01:44:04] Speaker B: Because, like, he does. [01:44:05] Speaker C: Yeah. It was like. It's like the last thing that I remembered in the movie because I did not remember the ending from the first time I saw it. [01:44:11] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:44:12] Speaker C: And, like, seeing it, I was like, oh, this is such an incredible way to just, like, bring home the movie. [01:44:18] Speaker A: It's. [01:44:18] Speaker C: It's an incredible way to just really end things with, like, he's lived this life. It's. It's this cautionary tale to, like, to have what you like, like be happy with what you have. Or, like, all of these, like, these themes and everything. [01:44:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:44:33] Speaker C: And then they tack on that ending and it's like, holy fuck, man. [01:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:39] Speaker A: No, there's really. There was a part of me that I was like, if this is a Twilight. If this was a Twilight Zone episode, the part where he sits in at the table that Charlie used to sit at and is waiting to go into the operating room. That's when the camera pulls out and you hear Rod Serling talk about, like. And. Yeah, wait there. And then. But then it cuts and it kept going. And I went, yes, that's right. This is a movie. I'm very uncomfortable now. [01:45:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like. It's like the movie gets to be kind of both kinds of Twilight Zone episodes. One that's outright, terrifyingly disturbing, and the other one that's like this kind of. Yeah. Little cautionary tale. [01:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:21] Speaker C: Just character study. [01:45:23] Speaker B: Right, Right. [01:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, it's hard not to. Like, it's every time that the old. Like. Because the old man that owns the company shows up two or three times. I think he has. [01:45:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I think just like, two times new. [01:45:35] Speaker A: I think it's like. Yeah, he's. He convinces. He convinces. Gosh, I gotta remember his name. [01:45:41] Speaker B: Tony. [01:45:41] Speaker A: Arthur. Because it's Arthur Hamilton. Then Tony, he convinces Arthur. Like, listen, man, like, does your family really care about you? Like, in the nicest, sweetest. Like, you want a difference. You want an escape. You want to feel new. Like. And it's like this, man, if it was a Twilight Zone episode in the classical sense, would be fucking Burgess Meredith and would just clearly be like, are you the devil? I don't know if you are. But then when he shows up, like, later, sitting on Tony's bed right before they're going to strap him down, it is just like this energy of, like, I am uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable with the Saint. I know what's going to happen. And even when you know again in the best way, you know what's going to happen. But Frankenheimer's execution of being like, you know what's going to happen but you don't know how much I'm going to show you. [01:46:32] Speaker C: Right. [01:46:33] Speaker A: Like, I'm literally going to show you up until the very last moment. Moment. [01:46:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:46:37] Speaker A: He is like, he's alive and you don't know. [01:46:40] Speaker B: And you don't know how much Rock Hudson's gonna scream. [01:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's the fact that it's like this, you know, adds to the cautionary tale that like, it shows that it's a film and has more cynicism. Out of all three of these films is the fact that Arthur was worried about being, you know, just a nobody in his own life with nowhere to go and literally ends as a nobody. [01:47:03] Speaker C: Yes. [01:47:03] Speaker A: Who is a no face cadaver that is going to be used for someone else who is being pulled in to try to find a new lease on life. [01:47:11] Speaker C: And yeah, I mean, I think that's the dark brilliance of it too is that every step of the way without, like, without us even knowing about it and much less Arthur knowing about it, he's being manipulated. He's being like pulled into this thing through like random phone calls from his, from a friend from way back when. That's like feeding him this information and the old man, like really selling it that like, oh, yeah, you, you want a new life. Yeah, it would be amazing. Like, and it's done in such a way that it doesn't feel like Arthur slash Tony is like, is being manipulated in the moment. But when you get that final scene with the old man by the bed, it's like it just like the chickens come home to roost. And it's like, it's just so like dour. It's so like, it's so dark and unforgiving in the way that it's just like he's been pushed into this way, manipulated along the way. And it's still this cautionary tale that like, yeah, you know, be happy with what you have or work on what you have. Don't blow $30,000 to change who you are. [01:48:23] Speaker B: Right. Well, it's like, yeah, he was, he was tricked and lured along by all these niceties and kind words and things along the way. But like, yeah, still at the end of the day, you were, you know, ungrateful and cynical about your own life and couldn't hack it doing, you know, being you. And this is what happens. [01:48:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [01:48:49] Speaker A: You know, you had a crisis and you thought money was gonna solve it. [01:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:53] Speaker A: Really honestly. Yeah. Like, the Charlie call scene is horrifying. I think Charlie's voice. Yes, the Charlie's voice is way too chipper and in a way that is uncomfortable when he's like starting to tell him about like the. The tennis trophy. Look at this. And it's like, oh my God. [01:49:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:12] Speaker A: There's an uncomfortability to like just how like. Yeah, I'm going to prove to you that I'm your friend who you think's been dead for at least two years. What the fuck is going on? [01:49:24] Speaker C: Yep. [01:49:25] Speaker A: And I mean. But I would say. I mean, the film probably kicks into full gear because I would say like the middle sags in a sense. [01:49:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:49:37] Speaker A: And again, it's to degree. You can argue it's supposed to sag because it's supposed to give him a sense of normalcy that like, this is his new life. And then of course, it kicks into high gear when you find out that like everyone who's at his party is. Is a. Is like not. Is not a company man. Are the reborns. They're reborn. There are other people which again, I wish if anything, we could have sprinkled in a few more of those guys before we got to the party so they had more of it. [01:50:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:50:06] Speaker A: Because really the impact of that scene really happens when his love interest pops in. But by that point there's an energy of like, she's probably in on it. [01:50:15] Speaker B: Right. [01:50:16] Speaker A: I mean, it's just like it. There's an uncomfortability in that scene with the party and how drunk he's getting and just how. Just more and more being like, I used to be a Harvard man. Wink, wink. And then just like starts and phenomenal. Kind of like foreshadowing the fact that he starts singing like the fight song. And the guy that should also know the fight song is like uncomfortable and can't see it to it because he just. He's fucking lying. He's not from Harvard. The guy who says he's like the guy singing to. Is not. He's reborn. He doesn't know. [01:50:52] Speaker C: Right. [01:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it is like it has that energy of just like. There's. You can't be normal. There's no way you could be normal with this. This is like. Yeah, it's. It's. It's. Yeah, to a degree it is funny how it's a film where it's just a guy throwing money at a problem being like, I changed. I changed my mind. Take me back. Right? Make me Be old again. And it's like, oh, for. You idiot. What you think was gonna happen? You look like Rock Hudson now. What do you think is gonna happen? And it's also the fact. It's like you spent, like, months in physical therapy because they also, like, put, like, clearly put, like, is Rock Hudson's clearly taller than the actor that plays Arthur. They probably, like, put extenders in his knees or something. Like, they had to make. Like, he had to do some extensive. Like. And also it's just like, how do you interpret. I think there's one. The only aspect I'm curious. How do you interpret the scene where he gets out of the airport and the guy knows who he is? It's like, I love your pains. Like, it's. He's like, I. Do you think there's a possibility and this is something that the film doesn't. If it is there, it's very underlined. It's very subtle. If it is, do you think there's an implication in the film that there is a real Tony Wilson or used to be a Tony Wilson? [01:52:17] Speaker C: That was my thought. [01:52:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:52:20] Speaker C: Yeah, but. But like. But it's not. It's not like a face swap thing because it's just like they. They mold, like a new face, from what I understand. So, like, I kind of took that kind of, in retrospect to be sort of like the company creating, like an immersion therapy sort of thing. [01:52:42] Speaker B: That's kind of what I thought. Yeah. [01:52:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:52:44] Speaker B: Somebody in on the. The scheme or whatever. [01:52:47] Speaker A: Which would make sense considering that the whole part, the cocktail party that his, like, butler is like, you should make friends is literally right. You should pay actors to come and pretend to be your friends. Like, it's really all it is. I love how you can really get that same. Like, that is so funny how they, like, go to the above and beyond as a company to, like, do something like that when it's just like, you could just tell him to pay for a prostitute or, like, do something else. Like, it's right. They're like, we're gonna really manufacture this. And it's also funny that they just let him leave. Like, when he goes and meets his ex wife, they just let him do it. They're just like, he's not gonna do anything bad, is he? He's like, I don't know. You let him go. Like, let's see, he can't stop him. But yeah, it was again, compared to, like, the Pikula Paranoia trilogy finale, where it's like, you know, you get to all the President's Men and you know, the bombastic. It. It. Not really, but like in terms of just like, you know, really just a stamp of an ending that is just like very like striking. And just how like, it's like, these are the facts. Here's this, here's that. And then you get to seconds and seconds is like, listen, it's not gonna go well. He failed. He didn't have enough friends in his first life. And so, yes, no recommendations. And so he's better dead than alive. And just the starkness of that. And honestly, I could see someone if you use like Manchurian or Seven Days in May, is like a. A pro of doing like all the credits at the beginning and ending so strikingly. You could use seconds as a con because with seconds you could. Credits at the end maybe could give you some time to breathe. But the fact that it's just done, like, no, I don't. Yeah, I don't like that. [01:54:40] Speaker B: Then the lights come up in the theater and you have to walk outside. It's like, oh, God. But yeah. [01:54:46] Speaker A: Could you imagine like. Yeah. Being in 66, watching this @ like a matinee, like, pulled in and then you walk out, the sun hits you. [01:54:53] Speaker C: And you're like, ah, yeah. Ruin your whole day. [01:54:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I got the rest of my day. [01:54:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:54:59] Speaker A: Someone's gonna ask me about this, aren't they? [01:55:06] Speaker C: Really quick. This is a small tangent, but it's related to seconds in a way. In terms of the Twilight Zone. Have you guys seen the episode the Trade Ins from season three? It's an older couple. They are. [01:55:21] Speaker A: I don't know if I have personally. [01:55:22] Speaker B: I'm going to look it up a little bit. [01:55:24] Speaker C: Okay. [01:55:24] Speaker B: I feel like I've seen almost every episode the Twilight Zone, so I might. [01:55:30] Speaker C: Okay, I will say that the trade ins. It's season three, episode 31, that like, if you watch seconds and you are feeling very down, feeling like very. The bleakness of it. I would recommend like the Trade Ins as like a little bit of a. Of a breather from that. It's about. The plot summary is elderly, long married, John and Murray Holt visit the New Life Corporation to shop for a pair of younger replacement bodies. But then John resorts to desperate measures in order to cover the immense cost of this purchase. It's such a beautiful, beautiful episode. I wept when I watched it. But yeah, so anyway, I just recommend it. I just wanted to throw that out there while we're talking seconds. [01:56:20] Speaker A: Well, damn. [01:56:20] Speaker B: And that was 1962. So Frankenheimer watched that, you know. [01:56:26] Speaker A: Yes. [01:56:27] Speaker B: Product of his friend Rod Serling's and said, what if we make it more fucked up? [01:56:33] Speaker C: Right? [01:56:34] Speaker A: What if the camera was on someone's. [01:56:37] Speaker B: Shoulder or po on their shoulder looking at them? [01:56:43] Speaker A: Well, guess what? Elliot Silverstein, he was the director of that episode. I'm on the IMDb page for that. What if you. What if I had Rock Hudson screaming? How would that. How do you feel about that? Are you sad? You should be. But yeah, that's. I mean, the Frankenheimer paranoia trilogy is. I love the fact that it is. You know, both of these trilogies, you know, accidentally are kind of like an encapsulation of like the paranoia thriller in the 70s and the paranoia in the 60s and really capturing in very different ways this. How much fun it can be to really play with that aspect in a thriller sense. Whether it's politically, internally, socially, in the sense like someone with Manchurian Candidate and I mean, even Elsa was second. Just trying to be able to be like, can, can you live, can you live a life? Can you have a girlfriend, but also realize that you are selling them on a face that is not your original face. [01:57:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:57:50] Speaker A: And you know, it's, it is very much. Honestly, Matt is a delightful, delightful choice. Thank you for putting this in, Andy. [01:57:59] Speaker C: Of course. [01:58:00] Speaker A: Really to really give us to watch. And it's, it's unfortunate that, you know, you told me you wanted this episode to be four hours and we just got everything so concise. I know we just had to hit two. I mean, we'll have to save it for Kurosawa. We got to do another Kurosawa, get to the top. Make it our longest episode yet. But. [01:58:19] Speaker C: Yep. [01:58:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, to be honest with, you know, for those listening out there, I would recommend all three of these films. Like, they're all easy recommendations in terms of just like really getting a sense of. If you're somebody who, you know is maybe been put off on black and white films and don't know where to start and you like modern day thrillers. I think you get a fun classical sense of what made thrillers so fascinating back then and so popular, but also how it evolved in the span of like four years. [01:58:52] Speaker B: Yes. [01:58:53] Speaker A: And just like how crazy again, how crazy it is to think about how much an art form can evolve, especially not even just the art form in general, but like a single auteur can evolve after so many different films. I wonder if the Extraordinary Semen is like a great paranoia thriller that, you know, just. I, I just wanted to say it again. It's, it's such A funny name. And I can't believe that Frankenheimer. Frankenheimer ends his 60s with a film called that. What else is he. I'm now on his IMDb page again and I'm trying to look at anything else. He did French Connection 2. Yeah, he didn't even do French Connection 1. He just did. [01:59:37] Speaker B: The first one was Friedkin, wasn't it? [01:59:39] Speaker A: Freakin. [01:59:39] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:59:41] Speaker A: It's Gene Hackman and Friedkin nearly. [01:59:42] Speaker B: What a cool. Like, you know, Friedkin making the first one, Frank and Heimer making the same one. It's such a wild duo. [01:59:51] Speaker C: Oh yeah. What's crazy about Frankenheimer? And this is me showing. I don't know, this is, this is like a reveal, I guess. But like I, like, I know that he, I knew that he was a prolific director. I had seen movies of his that I'm blanking on now and like episodes of like whatever. Episodes of Rod Serling scripts that he directed. But like, there's a lot of blind spots. So like in the past, like few months, like obviously I had seen this whole trilogy like years ago, but like I saw Grand Prix. And revisiting these movies for this, for this podcast is like up until like this point, I kind of just, I wouldn't say that I wrote Frankenheimer off as like a journeyman director. Like just like a. Kind of just, you know, a director for hire, basically. But like seeing like these movies in such a quick succession with the, with the thought of like, like really watching them is. It's just opening my eyes to like how much of an autori. Was, how much of a talent he was and how distinctive his filmmaking was. So. Yeah, I learned something today. [02:01:19] Speaker B: I mean, just the. Yeah. That he can, that he has the breadth or had the breadth of talent to do, you know, hair raising, technically stunning, like genre films like Ground Prime, Pre Seconds. Ronin in the fucking 90s. [02:01:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:01:37] Speaker B: I don't even know how old he was by that point. [02:01:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:01:41] Speaker B: But also like he's so. I don't want this to sound reductive but like similar or like of a similar league to like Sidney Lumet in terms of, you know, talky character dramas. Like, it's such a. Yeah. I mean, I had previously, you know, he was just a name I knew and until the last few months and especially watching these movies, I didn't have the appreciation for his versatility as a filmmaker. [02:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:02:12] Speaker B: So he was 6 and. [02:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, he was 68 when he did Ronin. [02:02:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:02:16] Speaker B: When it came out. [02:02:17] Speaker A: So this late 90s, he passed away in 2002. Born in 1930. And the extraordinary semen was shot in 1960. I just want to make sure it's aware of. [02:02:29] Speaker C: And just. Just to clarify, it's Seaman S E A M A N. Yes. [02:02:36] Speaker B: Well, you didn't have to take the fun out of it, man. [02:02:40] Speaker A: Let me sell you on the film. I got the poster right here for you. So Daniel Niven, Faye Dunaway, Mickey Rooney, Jack Carter, Alan Alda. This is the actual tagline to the extraordinary semester Stowaway. Sail Away, Laugh Away, Love Away with Done Away. [02:03:01] Speaker B: Wow. [02:03:02] Speaker A: Tagline. It's a war. It's a war comedy, man. [02:03:09] Speaker B: 60S taglines suck. [02:03:12] Speaker C: Yes. [02:03:14] Speaker B: If you miss the first five minutes of this movie, you won't know what you're doing. [02:03:18] Speaker A: We're gonna kill your dog. It's like energy of, like. What are you talking about? [02:03:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:03:25] Speaker A: If you missed the last 20 minutes, you're missing. You're missing some fine, like, phenomenal stuff. [02:03:31] Speaker C: Right. [02:03:32] Speaker A: It's so funny to be like, don't miss it. Yes. I feel like that's pretty. [02:03:37] Speaker C: Yeah, we know how movies work. Yeah. [02:03:40] Speaker A: I don't know why you'd think I wouldn't miss. Could you imagine someone walking in, realizing they've been. They've missed the first five minutes, and they're just waiting for someone to tell them. I haven't missed much, have I? [02:03:53] Speaker C: Right. [02:03:53] Speaker A: Well, everything's okay. [02:03:55] Speaker B: It almost sounds like it's a response to, like, there was like, a cultural epidemic at that point of people showing up late to movies. Kind of like they have, like, stars from upcoming movies. Do the little promos of, like, turn off your phone and shut up. [02:04:10] Speaker C: Right. [02:04:11] Speaker B: Because they don't want people talking. [02:04:13] Speaker A: Well, they don't. [02:04:13] Speaker B: I guess people just didn't respect the start times. [02:04:17] Speaker A: Well, to be fair, in a modern era where we also don't respect start times because they're not real. [02:04:24] Speaker C: Right, Right. [02:04:25] Speaker A: If you go see an IMAX film, literally tomorrow, you can be 25 minutes late and probably still hit when Nicole Kidman is talking to you in an AMC. [02:04:34] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. It was 20, I think 23 minutes before Captain America started for me. Last night. Was that last night or the night before? I don't know. It was Monday. Yeah. It's like 23 minutes and Nicole Kimmin is on screen. I'm like, okay. [02:04:50] Speaker A: Surprised. And we're now done with the Perno trip. We're talking about Brave new world for 30 minutes. [02:04:55] Speaker C: Yes. [02:04:56] Speaker A: Andy. Andy looked like he visibly was going to, like, hurt, but yeah. The Frankenheimer Paranoia trilogy Was a blast. Matt, thank you so much for being a part of this episode. [02:05:12] Speaker C: Of course. Thanks for having me. [02:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And Matt, if you wouldn't mind plugging yourself for a minute, where can the people find all of your content? [02:05:23] Speaker C: Yes, my. My apostrophe tent is available@ obsessive viewer.com so I have three podcasts, one that's active, two that are kind of dormant right now, but that's neither here nor there. I have the Obsessive Viewer, which is a weekly movie review podcast where I review two new or recent release titles. It's a lot of fun. I like doing it. I do it every week. Every Thursday. Well, I don't know when you guys are posting this, but as of this recording, this week is coming out on Friday. But anyway, that's not anything. I'm not burnt out. But I also. Yeah, but I also have Anthology, which is the aforementioned Twilight Zone podcast where I talk about. I review each episode of the Twilight Zone as a first time viewer. I also do other sci fi anthology shows throughout the run of the show. [02:06:15] Speaker A: Since you talked about Anthology so much, this episode currently, which season of Twilight Zone are you in? [02:06:20] Speaker C: I am at the beginning of season four, so that is. Yeah, so that's the kind of maligned season four, but it's the hour long episode, so those take a little bit more work to actually review and everything. But it's fun. I'm going to bring it back soon, I promise. It's been a while because I've been focusing on Obsessive Viewer, but it's all there. They're always free online. That'[email protected] and I have Tower Junkies, which is a Stephen King podcast that I host with my friend Tiny. It's also on hiatus, but we have a whole backlog of stuff that'[email protected] and the obsessive viewers at obsessive viewer.com if I didn't say that already. And then finally I have a Patreon where I talk into microphones for money. So on there, yeah, on there I'm reviewing, doing episode reviews of Severance season two. I have TV reviews for a ton of stuff on there like Haunting of Hill House and a whole bunch of stuff. Book reactions, movie immediate reactions. It's a lot of fun. That'[email protected] obsessiveviewer and yeah, if you can follow me on social media at Obsessive Viewer and go to obsessive viewer.com and your OnlyFans username that Is obsessive. I can't seem a funny thing. Obsessive spewer. Yeah. Jesus. [02:07:48] Speaker B: Sorry. I'll tell you folks, I will be following. [02:07:55] Speaker A: Already subscribed. [02:07:57] Speaker C: Nice. Nice. But yes, Obsessive spewer. There's an extraordinary semen joke in there somewhere, but I can't make it. [02:08:11] Speaker A: Well, you can say that it came out in 1969. Sorry. [02:08:14] Speaker C: Yes. There you go. [02:08:17] Speaker A: Oh, my God. But. Oh, God, thank you, Matt, so much. Of course. [02:08:22] Speaker C: Thank you guys so much for having me. [02:08:23] Speaker A: And to be. To tease a little bit. We do have. Sometime this year. We don't have us. We're not gonna tell anyone yet, but Matt will return this. [02:08:32] Speaker C: Yes. [02:08:33] Speaker A: So don't worry. We. We teased him. We pretended like we were gonna watch Kurosawa today, and we said, just kidding. It's only Frankenheimer today. [02:08:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:08:40] Speaker B: And he cried. [02:08:42] Speaker C: I did. I did. [02:08:44] Speaker A: It was like. [02:08:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, it was like Charlie at the end of seconds, I just had that silent cry. [02:08:51] Speaker A: I'm the old man at the end of the bed. Don't worry. Matt Cursa was just through this long way. [02:08:56] Speaker C: Yep. [02:08:57] Speaker B: We just need to lobotomize you. [02:08:58] Speaker A: We're gonna watch Ron again. You like Ron. Yeah, but. Yeah, so we're definitely. Matt, we can't wait to have you again, but. [02:09:08] Speaker C: Can't wait. [02:09:10] Speaker A: The next episode we're gonna have actually kind of. It could tie a little bit into Grand Prix because both that film and this trilogy have something in common, which is going fast. Yes. In honor of, you know, having the last few years see this trilogy rise from a film that could have been the biggest flop that it was supposed to come out of, but surprisingly made a lot of money during the COVID era, to a sequel that basically doubled that money, and then to a third film that basically went toe to toe with a Disney film and had more hype than that Disney film itself. And it's to a point where the future of the series, this is bound to happen more. And we will probably talk about it more in the future, but we really. We had a friend that just wanted to come on the POD and talk about this trilogy. And honestly, it is a trilogy that is truly odd because I never thought. I'd say, especially on this podcast, that on March 15, we will be discussing with our friend Grant, the Sonic trilogy, which is, of course, Sonic The Hedgehog, Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, which came out. Sonic 3, of course, came out December of last year. And while I am aware and Andy even talked to me about this, in terms of why we would do this with Sonic 4 has already been announced. [02:10:42] Speaker B: Right. [02:10:43] Speaker A: I thought it would be interesting to talk about these three films because the. Just the absolute hurdle that this series has had from the very beginning and has weirdly become a series that has been. That is more beloved than the franchise it is based off of that. The video games that, like, now we're at a point where if you're a Sonic fan, you really have to discern whether it is a Sonic Movie fan or a Sonic Game fan. But. [02:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And moreover, folks, once you meet this Grant guy, you'll understand how we couldn't deny him the opportunity to come on and talk about these movies. [02:11:28] Speaker A: Let's put it this way. Yeah, let's put it this way. Like, similar to Matt, when he put this idea into our heads, it very much was like, guys, please, I would like to talk about this. [02:11:41] Speaker B: There was like a tremble in his voice when he said please. [02:11:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:11:45] Speaker A: And just some prolonged eye contact, but yeah. Tune in on March 15th when we discuss the Sonic the Hedgehog trilogy. And as always, I'm Logan. So. [02:11:57] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [02:11:59] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.