Episode 94: The Rise of Eggers

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Soas. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. And Odd. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Odd Trilogies. We kk trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, numerical order, or just thematic elements. And we discuss the good, the bad and the weird surrounding each film. And today is our final episode of 2024. I mean, it's weird that we're finally at this point, but also it feels like January was literally yesterday, but it's also been a long, long year in a lot of ways. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I was thinking back about some of the trilogies we've done this year and it's like, it's crazy how long ago those were, but also how not very long. Did we've done a lot this year? [00:00:59] Speaker A: Did we do Kung Fu Panda for this year? [00:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that was like in March or April or something. [00:01:04] Speaker A: That doesn't feel like this year. All right. But in honor. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Not our year in review. [00:01:08] Speaker A: I know it's not our year in review. Today we are doing like one of the, you know, trilogies that we've had on our list for a while, especially because of the specific film that this director has been trying to make for basically a decade almost. In honor of probably both Andy and I's most anticipated Christmas release, the beloved Christmas film we all know and love, Nosferatu, which is coming out Christmas Day, we decided to end off 2024 while talking about one of the most probably prolific modern indie directors that are working today, who has basically had one hell of a start of his career from 2016 all the way up to 2022. We are talking about the rise of Eggers. We are talking about director Robert Eggers first three films, which is, in case you don't know, 2016's The Witch, 2019's The Lighthouse, and 2022's The Northman. The man likes two word titles and. [00:02:09] Speaker B: I love that the ominous noun, like that's kind of his. Except for Nosferatu. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Nosferatu. But that's because he's doing an adaptation. You'd probably call it the Nosferatu if. [00:02:19] Speaker B: It felt like, you know, the Count. [00:02:22] Speaker A: The Count. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah. This one's kind of. It might be our most high profile rise of. In the sense that like all three of these films are and were when they released a pretty big deal. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:39] Speaker B: I mean, Eggers was kind of immediately put on the map by the witch. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:46] Speaker B: And each. Each film that's released at least in the kind of, you know, film nerd world or whatever, has been kind of an event ever since. Whereas like, you know, some of our rise ups, it's like we're looking at a now iconic filmmaker and looking at their. Maybe their less popular early films. Yeah, but in, in the case of Eggers, it's like he hasn't had a film that wasn't like, you know, kind of huge. [00:03:09] Speaker A: No. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah, we're not necessarily at the box. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Office, but we are literally talking about a man that basically starts at this point in his career at the time that a 24 starts to have relevance in a pulp, in a pop culture sense. Watch that rise to the point where he chips in all of his witch popularity with one of the weirdest fucking films of 2019 and then goes on to make a high budget. Very weird, very gorgeous, striking Norse tragic epic. In the span of six years, three films that are vastly different except for maybe Lighthouse and Witch only because their genre is horror. But it's very different types of horror. And like you said from the get go, it is very clear when people talk about these films, it's not like they do not know who creates them. Robert Eggers is such a big proponent of like conversations when it comes to indie filmmaking, especially when it comes to indie horror. As well as the fact that even though one of these three films are not technically horror in its own way, it is enough for when people talk about his newest film coming out, Nosferatu. It's almost like, oh my God, he's made another one. He's making horror again. Which at this point a Robert Eggers comedy would be the funniest thing. And I would love to see what happens. [00:04:40] Speaker B: Like set in modern day during daytime. [00:04:43] Speaker A: Yes. I mean that's the thing too. [00:04:45] Speaker B: How would he do that? [00:04:46] Speaker A: That's the thing. That's really fun too. You'll. If you've watched all these films going into this with us, which again very sweet of you, thank you for doing that. We would highly recommend you do so. Even though I know both of us probably would consider the Northman the weakest of these three films. I highly recommend watching all three of these films mainly because Eggers has made his name not only because of how he handles certain genres like horror or with like drama with it comes to in the Northman. It is also how just painstakingly accurate he wants to make each one of these films eras feel. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:26] Speaker A: Where it's this. I mean you have New England folk tale in the Witch, which is like the 1600s maybe you have the Lighthouse, which is. Is this supposed to be the 1700s or is it. [00:05:38] Speaker B: I think it would be late 1800s. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Like late 18. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:42] Speaker A: And then the Northman takes place before AD a thousand. It takes place in like the 900s. [00:05:48] Speaker B: And yeah, in all three he went to. He and his. His crew, of course, went to extreme lengths to create incredibly immersive, authentic. I mean, I would. I'm not an expert enough to say how authentic these movies are, but they're at the very least incredibly transportive. You feel like you are there. You don't feel like you're watching a Hollywood film. [00:06:12] Speaker A: We can say that. Like, at least from the interviews we've watched of Eggers, he always discusses these films in the sense that he has researched as much as he can in certain different areas in terms of clothing design, like, especially like how much he needs to know. [00:06:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Language is a huge one too because all three of these have vastly different ways of speaking because they're in different eras in different parts of the world. And I think that's another thing that makes them transportive is that like, nobody talks like this anymore. And in any other version of these movies, these people would be talking like modern English with a British accent or something. [00:06:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:06:54] Speaker B: You know, instead of, you know, the. The very time specific, region specific dialects that people use in his movies. So he's. Yeah, he's just kind of become synonymous with, you know, genre movies that try to really immerse you and embody the period that they're depicting. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And very much has, I mean, even go so far as to. You'll have Willem Dafoe in two of these three films. A man who probably does his best in the Lighthouse to figure out what a late 1800s fart sounds like and does his damnedest with many attempts to really capture that. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah, he takes a lot of shots. [00:07:36] Speaker A: Yeah, he does. He really does. But I mean, also the most phenomenal part about these three films going into it is that each one of these films is very straightforward narratively. A lot where it's, you know, the witch. Well, we'll just go right into it. The Witch is a film that is basically about a family that leaves their community because they do not believe that they are believing in the same. They're, you know, worshiping God the right way in terms of her father's attempt. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah, they're. They're basically experiencing classic religious persecution of the time. You know, there's very specific dogmatic ways of living and worshiping in that time. And they were. It didn't fit in. [00:08:21] Speaker A: Yep. And our main character, per se, because it really Bounces back and forth the family. You have like, you know, Ralph Innocent as the dad, Kate Dickey as the mother. But of course again, perfect timing in terms of Eggers career with this actress. In particular you have in a very early role in her career a Anya Taylor Joy as Thomason, who is the oldest daughter, who. Who is basically the first person to get into the inciting incident, that maybe the place that they have settled at in this middle of the forest may not be alone, may not be barren as they thought there might be a witch in the area. That's literally. That is the film. That is the film. [00:09:08] Speaker B: It's just a family being haunted by a witch basically or tormented by a witch. [00:09:14] Speaker A: And it is I again going into this. And if you've been again reading what we've been writing and posting on our website, again, very kind of you, thank you very much. But you probably saw in October that I wrote an article about the witch because I fucking love this movie. I love. It's a. It is a modern horror masterpiece in my mind. It's one of my best, one of my favorite horror films ever. Just for the fact that like this movie does the simplest things perfectly in terms of just like the horror aspect of it. And it also feels like at a time when this movie's coming out where the Conjuring series and Insidious are on their way, like still being as popular as ever, you know, Ghost shit has never been as fun or as bombastic as it is now. You have this little film that cost $4 million from a director no one's heard from. Just comes out and just shows off how phenomenal Anna Taylor Joy is. Gives Ralph Innison, the man, the myth, the gravelly voice himself, a chance to shine as the father. Just a very strong cast altogether. And it's mainly five. Six. It's about five. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Five or six. Yeah. Actors and actresses. And it's just like from start to finish it is just. You can tell just the love and the dedication put into it. And it's. Honestly, it's been fun to watch it. For this episode particular because for this episode I don't know if you did it. I thought I told you that. I recommend you do it sometime in the future. But the commentary for this film is fucking hilarious. It is so funny. It is so much fun to listen to Robert Eggers as a creator, just nitpick every little thing that he did. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah, he's a very frank filmmaker about his own process and his own. [00:11:12] Speaker A: Yes, yeah. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Perceived failings and things like That, I mean, we'll get to some of that in the Northman too, because that movie nearly broke him, which makes absolute sense. But yeah, I mean, the Witch is awesome. And I mean, culturally at the time it was kind of. I mean, it sort of ushered in this whole new wave of like, you know, I think we're at the point where people rag on it now of like the slow burn atmospheric, artsy horror. But this movie was kind of novel at that time when it came out because like you said, conjuring was dominant, insidious stuff like that big franchise horror, very, you know, jump scare heavy stuff. And then you get this. This weird, slow, methodical, atmospheric horror set in a another time period. And it's, you know, a 24 has just doubled down. Like they just doubled down on that kind of horror after this movie because, yeah, success. [00:12:18] Speaker A: And while a 24 horror. And it's in. It's like you're just broad strokes of definition is so much more difficult to really describe because A24 horror, if you look at, oh, they have plenty of stuff that's not like this hereditary and like, yeah, Midsommar and like, it's like you have these films that are attached to a 24 now where it's like. When you say a 24 horror now, it's like genuinely hard to discern what type of horror people are talking about. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:46] Speaker A: But at the time when this movie comes out, I feel like this movie is the perfect example of like you said, of like the moody atmospheric. Like, clearly this is not going to have a little girl in a room that is constantly spinning around or just like her being like, pulled to the ceiling or just like at a time where it feels like every year it feels like studios are having a hard time figuring out what people want in certain genres. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:14] Speaker A: When this movie just comes out In February of 2016, it becomes, I think, one of its highest grossing films in the company at the time. And then just like from that point forward, it propels Eggers and then propels Joy. And then A24 just has more slews of just films in the. In the backlog. Like, all right, let's just. People are listening and go, it's again, the fact that this is only 8 years ago when this movie comes out and a 24 is now to a point where we are now at the discussion of a 24, as if they are overrated or we hate them. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Sure. [00:13:54] Speaker A: And again, a culture like, it's like. [00:13:56] Speaker B: The fact that kind of. It's become kind of the The MCU of, like, artsy films, you know, which. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Is funny as fuck to say that we can't even get to that point. [00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah, but that is how people talk about it, you know, 824. Why don't you get some taste? [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, and it's like. It's like, oh, yeah, a 24. But neon, you know, a company that's been there longer than neon, like, a 24. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Neon is the new a 20. The new, new a 24. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Yeah. It's, like, so funny to think that a 24 has gotten so popular to the point where, like, you know, Warner Brothers made a deal with a 24 to just stream their new films via Max. [00:14:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Like, I don't. You don't see Neon doing that with Hulu. You don't see the Radius doing that with just, like, Peacock. But, you know, who would want to do that with Peacock? [00:14:46] Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, it's. [00:14:47] Speaker A: It's just fascinating to think that, like, while at A24, the Witch is not the first A24 film. I would argue it's probably not even the first horror film from A24. It is the one that really breaks the. Breaks the ceiling of, like, introducing people to, like, hey, there's more out there than just conjuring. And again, I know we talked about the conjurings, and guess what? It seems like we're gonna have to talk more about the conjuring next year because there's another one coming out. [00:15:13] Speaker B: Ye. [00:15:14] Speaker A: But those films fit a certain niche that is much more broad and in my opinion, and I think Andy's opinion as well, not that scary. [00:15:23] Speaker B: No, it's. [00:15:24] Speaker A: It's. It's fun in a creature sense, but there's nothing about it that's really gonna keep you up at night. Unlike, I don't know, the ending of the Witch, which still really just, like, is incredibly haunting and has one of the best. Genuinely. When I was writing my Komorebi article for the. For the website, I was listening to that final track while writing it, and I had to pause it. I was very uncomfortable. [00:15:48] Speaker B: Listening to that track score in this is so unnerving. [00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah, the score in all three films, honestly, like, the Lighthouse is fucking terrifying, too. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Lots of. Lots of creepy coral bits, moaning and droning and things like that. But, yeah, I mean, I think the Witch sets itself apart, especially at the time that it comes out by, you know, I think it really prioritizes trying to articulate, like, the psychological toll of being scared of, you know, actually in a state of disturbia and disorientation. As a result of these things that are trying to scare you as opposed to your average, you know, studio horror movie that's like kind of more of a roller coaster ride of like, oh, jump scare here. Oh, jump scare there. Oh, cool creature effect here. The witch is a little. And honestly, the rest of these are a little bit more focused on actually like kind of embodying the terrifying atmosphere that the characters find themselves in. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah, it is very fascinating how Eggers doesn't set out to basically have each one of these films have this energy of like, God, this would have been awful to actually live in this period of time. But in just trying to keep to the accuracy of the era, it just almost automatically creates this horror of like. Yeah. Imagine being a young woman who is, you know, by herself with her family and has opinions, is intelligent and very, you know, quick witted, can be funny at times. But ultimately in an era where women are wives and if you are too opinionated, you're probably a witch. So it leaves a lot of the tension of the film being the fact that she is the only one who believes in herself, that she has nothing to do with what's happening to her family. While their family is very traditionalist in a sense, I think the only person I'd say who probably is doubting Thomasin's kind of tie to the witchy, kind of supernatural stuff happening to them is their father. But only because their father is dealing with the fact that he kind of fucked up by taking them from the community. [00:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah, he's kind of trying to save his own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker A: And it leads to, you know, the most important part of horror, and I think most important part of any story is that you need to care about the characters that are going through this. You very much are aware that the witch is a real thing very early on. Like. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Cause there's a sequence you essentially see her. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:53] Speaker B: Fairly early on. So, yeah, the film isn't really. I mean, you know, there are bits of the movie where you kind of wonder like, am I seeing what's actually happening or am I seeing what the characters are, you know, imagining? But it's not really hiding anything from you. No. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Again, just like this is a film where, you know, in our brains, when we're thinking of horror in a theater, the first thing we're going to think of again is going to be constantly Sane is a big budget horror film with a lot of jump scares, a lot of ghosts popping at you, or maybe fake jump scares, which are truly the Devil's trope when handled poorly. But this is the type of film where the film will just cut to a certain character naked on the ground, covered in a substance. I don't want to fully say because I think it's scarier not knowing, going into it blind. But the scene just sits on this character in darkness, naked as can be, just being weird by itself. And it never cuts. And that's horrifying because you don't know what's going to happen next. And the movie doesn't have to jump at you. The movie has these unique, beautiful ways of just like seamlessly transitioning into like this fucked up thing that you didn't realize was there. It was like, technically, there's like technically a jump scare, per se, but I think it's very much earned. It's in the barn. Yeah, but it just is very much. [00:20:30] Speaker B: It's more about immersing you in dread and like feeling like, absolutely, God, what horrible thing am I gonna have to witness now? Like, you know, rather than like waiting for something to jump out and scare you, it's a little bit more like, you know, how much more sickening is their situation going to get? Not necessarily graphically, although there's some gross bits in here. More sickening from a, you know, either a moral or a psychological standpoint. Family turning on each other, you know, family members turning on each other, parents turning on their, you know, fucked up imagery. Of course, Orange just placing you in this awful, isolated environment and making you basically deal with all the things the characters are dealing with. [00:21:25] Speaker A: Yeah, Just having to be okay. The characters have to be okay with having the mindset of I might be the only person that gets out of this or I might not get out of this. And every actor, I think, does a really good job of if they have that moment internally is very noticeable and it's very sad in the best way possible, just seeing them break down. Because how can you control something that is above? There's otherworldly in a sense. [00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I can see where it's coming from. Yeah. Especially, you know, the added effect of, okay, yes, my family seems to be, you know, it seems we're being terrorized by a witch of the woods. On top of that, I don't really trust anybody else in my family. I don't think they really care about me or what I think. And I'm also isolated from society. I'm out in the middle of nowhere, you know, so it's just these compounding factors of. And like you mentioned earlier, the kind of social dynamic of it. Of that time, you know, women not being, you know, looked to for their opinions and being villainized and demonized for being different or being, you know, like you said, too opinionated. All of that. Kind of on top like. Like we're dealing with that and the misery of existence. And on top of that, I'm being, you know, systematically hunted by a witch. Like, great. [00:22:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:57] Speaker B: If the witch doesn't kill me, I'm still doomed to a miserable life. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Yeah. They. They still want to find a husband for me. Like, that is just like, fucking. Ugh. It is phenomenal. It is just a film that, like. [00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:12] Speaker A: I can't help but not recommend it to anyone who says they like horror. Just because it's like. And not saying that if you watch this film and you don't love it the same way that either one of us does, that doesn't mean you have a bad opinion or anything like that. It just. It just is very much like. I think a film like that gives a good litmus test to the people that recommend it to you in terms of what bothers them and kind of messes with them. And also just shows, at least gives you a better mindset of what horror can be in a modern sense. And especially like a film that is so accurate to its time period. How a film that it's going to have ye olde English and be set in the 1600s in New Hampshire or New England can still feel modern in how it approaches that idea and still, you know, very much so. Is it trying to be like, this is a film that was shot, you know, back then? Because that's not possible. You can't do that. [00:24:14] Speaker B: So, like, of course, emulate a film. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:17] Speaker B: From before the invention of the camera. [00:24:19] Speaker A: And the lighthouse gets very close in doing its absolute best in trying to capture early cinema in a lot of ways in terms of its framing as well as shooting on film, as well as just a bunch of guys trying to figure out what the fuck to do on a desert island, basically. But, I mean, the witch is just a blast and really much so. Just. I could never get sick of the film, especially when everyone's favorite witch character shows up. And that's Black Philip. Yes, very much. Black Phillip is the most fun when it comes to the director's commentary, because I know Andy knows about this. Black Philip is a goat that the family owns. At one point, the little. The children say that they like, the twins, the youngest say that they talk to Black Philip, but don't discern as to what they talk to Black Philip about. He was an absolute menace on set every time. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I think Edgar said, never, never work with goats because they're evil. [00:25:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause I think there's one scene where he wasn't supposed to. He was supposed to run into something and ran in way too hard. Nearly hurt one of the actors in a way that they were like, oh shit, that's not good. But it's so funny because if you watch it with the commentary, when it gets to like towards the end of the film, there's a scene pretty pivotal with Black Philip in it. And then you just listen to Eggers being like this really takes away any of the mystique. When I think about on set, there's just a guy off screen constantly calling to him to like, with a treat. Yeah, it's just like. It's so funny. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Demanding Black Phillip. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Just be under control. [00:26:07] Speaker A: Come here. And it's like so funny to think of him like again, Eggers is just so much fun to listen to him talk because like you said, he's very frank about the process. [00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah. He kind of reminds me of David F. Sandberg in terms of how open he is about his process and his kind of self critique and things like that. He feels very workmanlike and just kind of like a very people's person. Not necessarily that he's an extrovert, but like a very average person trying to make movies. And obviously he's not an average filmmaker. No. But the way he approaches it, I think mentally feels very straightforward and common sense. [00:26:57] Speaker A: He very much. Yeah, he very much feels like if Eggers, if this film had come out, like if he had made his first film in like the early 2000s or maybe the late 90s, he would have a much different mentality in terms of the process or how his works fit culturally. Because I think like he has the energy of someone who clearly is like, I don't give a fuck about studio stuff, like the stuff that's being put out there. Not my thing. Could give a fuck about superheroes. But at the same time has probably seen other people in his space who are in the indie, who are making indie films for years and have such a high talk of themselves, who are constantly are just like a dislike egging themselves on, that they're like the best in their respective generation of filmmakers. And then obviously just like seeing them probably just plummet. [00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:50] Speaker A: And it was probably. There's that self awareness of being like, clearly what he wants to do is not considered maybe quote unquote normal. To, like, a studio sense. But he is not going to treat it as if, like, people doing that are like, not artists. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Or, like, you know, just like, lesser than, if anything. [00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it helps. I don't know that maybe he's said something like this and this is where I'm getting it, but I don't know if he's said anything quite along these lines. But he strikes me as somebody who might not even really know or feel that he is a good filmmaker. I think. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:28:28] Speaker B: He might be the type who's like, I'm really interested in the topic and I do everything I can to try and, like, convey that topic as authentically as possible. But when it comes to, like, evaluating my own stuff, I mean, honestly, listen. [00:28:44] Speaker A: To the commentaries is perfect. Like, makes perfect sense because there's literally shots in the film. Like, there is a random shot, I believe, of a tree, and he just goes like, that's the best shot in the film and doesn't elaborate. And then there's a later shot where it's like a landscape shot and he's like, this is one of the worst shots we ever had to do. And I feel so sorry that I had to make them do this. It's like, not a bad shot whatsoever. But he talks about the story of, like, this wasn't on location, we had to shoot this somewhere else. But I know it's not on location. And it's like, it's fine, it's okay. It looks good. But, like. I mean. Yeah. And I think comparing him, like. Or putting him kind of in the same space of, like, Sandberg, in terms of just like, a director is very self aware of the process. Very self aware that being a director is not a normal thing. Yeah, it's very much. It's very much a place that if you love being in that space, fantastic. If not probably very understandable because it's a lot to really manage. And it's Especially if you have very particular, specific ideas for shots and performances. It is probably going to drive you crazy, depending on the project you're working on. Yeah, we will definitely get to with a later film in this. But anything more to say about the Witch before we get to. [00:30:06] Speaker B: Well, I mean, you know, we've obviously talked a lot about how, you know, his efforts to create, you know, authentic depictions of the settings and stuff. But it's also kind of interesting to look at this as we move ahead into the other two because as he, you know, adds to Hill's filmography and explores other settings and Types of stories. He also increases his kind of stylism because in the Witch, it's all very like natural lighting for everything. Like, all the exterior shots are just natural lighting. All the interior shots are lit like by candlelight or by daylight coming in through a window. It's incredibly like. Like bare bones, I guess, from a lighting standpoint, from a cinematography standpoint. Not that it is an unattractive movie. It's a gorgeous movie. No, but it's that. That's kind of all the more impressive because they're not using elaborate lighting rigs or effects to, you know, create really, you know, vibrant environments. They're just. It's just the camera and the light that's available to them, which is pretty wild. And, you know, we'll see in the Lighthouse and the Northman how Eggers kind of moves into more formalistic filmmaking. [00:31:30] Speaker A: Yes, because it's very much so that when you. With the Witch is a phenomenal success for a 24. It is very much so. Still, constantly, of all these three films, I would imagine this is the one that most people have heard of the most. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Probably the memes might have helped the Lighthouse. [00:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah, memes might have helped the Lighthouse. But the thing about the Witch was phenomenal too. And I think this is always a fun thing when it comes to directors who succeed in their projects is the fact that the budget for the Witch is less than 5 million. Yeah, it's a low budget film technically. And so that begs the question, if you give this man more money, if, like, what would that money be put into? Would it be something that's very similar to the Witch, or is it a completely different type of beast altogether? And with 11 million under its belt, about three years after the Witch comes out, we get the Lighthouse. A very, very weird film. A very odd. I mean, no, like it is. I remember when we saw this in theaters because it kind of came out. I think it came out in October, I think. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was October. [00:32:43] Speaker A: We saw this with the group and I remember all of us just being absolutely silent when the credits rolled. And I think the person, unsurprisingly, the person who broke the silence first was Adam, I think, going, Jesus. Just like involuntarily, just saying what he was thinking for the last few minutes. Yeah, because the Lighthouse is very simply about two men who work at a lighthouse for four weeks and then they're supposed to switch out. And it's two men that have never met before on this little dinky island that has a lighthouse, a Coal furnace cistern. It's late 1800s. It is basically Robert Pattinson is the young buck who is supposed to be working for Willem Dafoe as the lighthouse keeper. Or at least, you know, they're supposed to be sharing the light. But Willem Dafoe pulls rank every time and says, I will take care of the light. And is a film about these two men basically going insane. That's. Yeah, there it is. Like, it's. The stuff is. [00:33:56] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, it's a story of isolation. It's a story of, you know, paranoia. And it's also like, kind of hard to pin down genre wise, compared to the other two in this trilogy. Cause at least for me, and you know, you might feel differently, but I have felt like this movie has really evolved in how I view it over the years. Because when we were. When we first saw it, like you said, we were all kind of stunned. It's an overwhelming experience. It's a highly atmospheric experience. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:33] Speaker B: And, you know, I think I came away from it originally thinking more horror or psychological thriller. Now when I watch it, it's practically a comedy for me. I mean, the horror, you know, the creepy elements still work. I think they're still done. But it's like when I watch it, I watch these two lunatics just, you know, I mean, it's kind of like a really elaborate Looney Tunes sketch. Like it's just two people going nutty with cabin fever. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Those aspects are the ones that I think lighten up the film in a sense, in between a lot of the more intense moments. But even then, I think those light moments still make things horrifying because you realize that these men are just. They're not doing anything but just trying to numb the pain. Which makes it more so that every single day that passes, it only is going to get worse. And yeah, I mean, I think now watching it, especially since, you know, when this film comes out again, we only have the Witch as a reference to how Eggers is as a filmmaker. And the Lighthouse is much more just blocking wise cinematography, wise approach to the characters, the approach to just narratively how they're handling the situation. Because there's moments in the Witch where characters talk about time, where they talk about how much time has passed since this has happened. How much time has passed since this. You don't know how they know that, but they're probably just aware and it's fine. The Lighthouse gets to a certain point where, you know, they're supposed to only be there for four weeks. And then as the Film goes on. You cannot tell what is the same day, what is the next day. Has it been a week that's passed? And you just start to get lost in the madness the same way that everyone else is. Because no one knows what time it is. [00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean. Yeah. [00:36:36] Speaker A: And they don't want to know. Like, that's another thing too, that shows how the madness is taking over because there's literally a shot of Pattinson punching a clock because he doesn't give a shit. He just hates the. [00:36:47] Speaker B: He's sick of looking at it and hearing it. Yeah. [00:36:50] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like almost hilariously like a. Almost a film that's at some level a horror of the monotony of just like life, of just like working the same job over and over again. Where it's like Pattinson's biggest blow ups are literally about Dafoe's farts. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:13] Speaker A: The fact that he says the same thing before dinner every single night. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:17] Speaker A: And just his little isms here and there. Like, it's like the horror almost comes from if it's not the weird stuff that you don't really have any context for and you don't know if you want to know the context for like, you know, the. The wild nightmares that Pattinson's character has. Winslow. It's Winslow and Wake. [00:37:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember correct. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Is it Ephraim? Ephraim. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Ephraim Winslow. Ephraim Winslow and Thomas Wake. [00:37:47] Speaker A: Yeah, and Winslow. Again. It's fun to watch these two actors work because you see two actors who are like, I think, in their fucking A game right now. Like again, when you have. When they announced that it was Dafoe and Pattinson and it feels like such a wild difference generationally. But then you watch the film and you're like, oh, no, these are two people that are just going so hard into this, like, straightforward, like this needs to sound, look and feel like the era. And also I have to make sure the audience knows just how little this man can just make me want to just beat the shit out of him because of something he just said from the smallest little like twitch of an eye or just like, you know, the relationship between the two of them. It's also the fact that like, unlike the Witch, and I think this is why, you know, our initial viewing was probably a lot. It's like, it's very ambiguous. Like the Lighthouse is exceptionally ambiguous in a way that is, you know, there I remember, like the most interesting, fun stuff about the Lighthouse kind of discourse after the film came out are people's Interpretations. There are literally interpretations where it's like, you can very much see the symbolism. With the Prometheus story, a classic Greek tale, you can also see ideas about purgatory, but the lighthouse being purgatory in some way, shape or form. I've also seen people say it's one of the best gay films they've ever seen of suppressed sexuality or just suppressing yourself. Because, like, there are moments in the film where, again, it's just two men on an island together. And that's it. There's nothing else. There's. And there's no pictures of women. There's nothing to. Like. They are alone with just each other. And. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:41] Speaker A: When they're in the madness, they are, like, almost finding solace in one another. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Right. They get along the best when they're going fucking insane. [00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And they're plastered. [00:39:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:55] Speaker A: And at times, Pattinson, I think, has moments where he's afraid. His character Winslow, is afraid because there might be something more romantic or sexual attached to it. And whether you think that that's the case or not just depends on the interpretation of how you watch that film or how you feel that it is. Yeah. And that's, like, the best part about the movie. This movie feels like a puzzle that you can solve four different ways and still get to like. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the pieces are made out of play doh. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's play doh. Oil. A mermaid totem that someone clearly made, but no one will admit that they made it. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah. It's almost a movie more interested in. And I don't say this critically, but it's almost more interested in confusing and overwhelming you than trying to give you something that can be put together. Clear cut. Yeah, absolutely. Kind of as a carryover from the witch, which really immersed you in the dread and despair of those characters. The lighthouse immerses you in the madness and the. The confusion and the paranoia and just not knowing up from down, not knowing what day it is. Like, you know, when you said earlier that you lose track of how much time it's been, you kind of lose track, you know, on pace with the characters right about the time that they're like, how long has it been? You're like, oh, yeah. Oh, God. And then the movie just kind of keeps descending further and further into the. Into chaos to where you're. You kind of completely lose track of what's happening. And, yes, there's a thousand theories you could come up with, and a lot of them are really good. There's a lot of really good explanations of this movie out there. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:52] Speaker B: It's a lot of fun, but it's. It's. Honestly, it's a movie that kind of, you know, almost by its nature, by its construction, is like defying you to give it an answer because it's. It's more just about losing it. [00:42:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it does. The end. [00:42:11] Speaker B: It's. [00:42:12] Speaker A: It's very hard to convey the idea of. To an audience that what you are, like, what certain answers or questions are don't really matter. [00:42:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Without it pissing some people off. And I think an Eggers is a bold man that basically makes a film that is like that question times 10. A lot of the times where it's like, why is the lighthouse so important? Why is the light. Why does Willem Dafoe's character love the light so much? Is there something to the light? And then at a certain point, you just kind of realize that, like, you're never going to really fully get that answer. It really is about. It's less about the objective truth. It's more about the subjective truth to these two men because at a certain point, reality doesn't apply anymore. It's more about what is their psychology at this point, what it satisfies them and is about. [00:43:05] Speaker B: Hilariously, it's a movie about satisfaction and obsession and fixation and pleasure. [00:43:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Using pleasure to distract you from your surroundings. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Yes. Carving. Carving your own porn out of ceramic or wood or whatever it is. Yeah. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Using vices as a sense of just like, maybe this will all be better tomorrow if we just plaster ourselves tonight only to find out that every issue they had the day before is still there. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Now there's eternal worse. [00:43:40] Speaker A: And it's very much. It is a testament to how good Pattinson and Dafoe are as well as Agers is as a director that the film is so engaging, even though the majority of the film is just watching these two men keep to themselves with the occasional them talking to each other or just like, you know, having a spat here and there. Like the occasional, I guess, brawl or, you know, I mean, you get a monologue from Willem Dafoe that is probably like one of the best monologues that man has ever done. And the only reason why that monologue exists is because he believes Winslow is lying when he says he doesn't like his cooking. [00:44:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Which is again, and that scene is very hilarious too, because that is just a drunk Robert Pattinson being goofy and mean. Just make. Make wake feel bad. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:32] Speaker A: And it is a. It is a film that just keeps on trucking along to the point where you feel like you yourself are kind of going mad because you don't know how they could finish a story like this. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker A: And then until you realize, like, oh, I guess there's only one way really ends. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:51] Speaker A: And it's like. Then it just. When it ends, it is just. It is a. It was a delight in theaters in a very different sense than, like, the Witch, where, like, the Witch. Seeing that in theaters, my jaw was dropped because I hadn't seen a horror film that really captivated me like that in a modern sense in a while. Even something like around that time that the Witch was coming out, there were films like It Follows, you know, another indie horror darling where that film is also phenomenal. But the Witch just felt so unique in how it handles that. And then when the Lighthouse happens, the Lighthouse almost makes you reboot your brain in terms of what Eggers is going to do next or what Eggers would want to do, because if this is in his mind, what he wants to do in the horror space, this is just. I don't know how you get any more weirder abstract than this. And for the longest time, you don't really think. You don't really know. Until he announced Nosferatu, and it's like. [00:45:50] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:45:52] Speaker A: Putting his modern spin on a classic tale. [00:45:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause, I mean, the Lighthouse is like a. You can see the sort of progression for Eggers in terms of, like, delving deeper into two of his fixations, one being horror and the other being, like, period pieces. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:46:14] Speaker B: Because this goes kind of. I mean, it goes deeper in every way into both of those than the Witch, just in terms of, like, the depth of commitment to the costumes and the speech and the way it's filmed. I mean, you mentioned earlier how this, you know, kind of comes as close as you can get to, like, what an 1890s feature film would look like. [00:46:40] Speaker A: It's. [00:46:40] Speaker B: You know, it feels like. Yeah. Those early silent films, but it's not silent. [00:46:47] Speaker A: No. And it takes, I think, about six to seven minutes before anyone says a line like atmosphere. The shots of the island, which they did shoot on that island, look like it's a set. Like, it looks like miniature. Yeah, like a miniature. The amount of times where you just feel like you're gonna look out and see, like, a seam in the skyline when you're like, no, that's just the fucking. That's what it looks like. That's where they're at. And I. It's very clear to the. Like, I would argue, even Though the Witch is my favorite of these three films, I would argue that the Lighthouse has the strongest performances out of these. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Basically. Because I think Eggers finds out in the Witch that if you want someone to fully commit, like, all of your actors to fully commit, one, have less actors that you have to focus on, and two, make sure they're adults because, I mean, because the. The kids and the witch are good. I think they're really, really well done. Again, I think it's. They do a really good job performance wise, but, like, they're kids. So, like, when it comes to certain intense moments, I think there were some things on the commentary where they're. You don't want to scare the kids as well as, like, you don't want them to. You don't. You don't want to go to, like, you know, disciplinary. On a child when it comes to a fake performance. Now, if you have two method actors or, like, two very dedicated, highly committed actors. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:14] Speaker A: Who are willing to, like, just bear everything you want to load onto them for their characters, then you just go hard. And that's why in this film, like, these guys, even when it comes to, like, just a scene where, like, Wake slaps Winslow in the face and there's just, like, silence that just permeates the room as if someone's about to just, like, pull a gun and shoot the other one in the face. [00:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Or the fact that that same intensity goes into when they're drunk and they're dancing and they're just, like, you know, plaster pushing stuff around, dancing. And like, there's just such. I have such an admiration for, like, how much Dafoe and Pattinson put into this, into these characters, while still having that comedic edge. Because it is. It's funny. It genuinely is fun. [00:49:07] Speaker B: It's a hilarious movie in terms of. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Just, like, how it's two men. It's like at times it's just two bumbling buffoons that are just, like, trying their best not to bump into each other in this tiny little lighthouse. And is. I mean, the first, like, little bit I guess you get is the fact that Winslow doesn't want to drink. And Wake takes offense to that. And so Winslow pours it out, puts a little water in his cup, and the water tastes like shit because he hasn't cleaned the cistern yet. And Wake is just cackling like a hyena. [00:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah. They're just constantly, like, undermining each other and poking each other's, you know, sore spots. Yeah. It's wild. And. And I Mean, to what you said a minute ago about, like, you know, these really committed actors, really committed to their performance. It's. It's almost like Willem Dafoe is playing, like two characters here because he's. He's playing this kind of bumbling, senile old coot who's like, oh, you fond of me lobster? You know, who's almost cloying and just kind of an annoying co worker type. And then on the flip side, he's kind of becomes at times this eldritch sea God, this terrifying towering beast of a man. Part of that is thanks to some dramatic lighting choices and great. A great script. But, you know, also Dafoe's kind of constantly shifting between these two modes and he does it so organically. [00:50:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's very. [00:50:52] Speaker B: So much fun. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Yeah. An easy way to describe that too, is like, yeah, think of that. That Norman Osborne to Green Goblin turned up to 11. [00:51:00] Speaker B: That's what he's doing the whole movie. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like, I. This is not a spoiler for the film. Again, this is just a theory about the film. So if you haven't seen the film again, you should have probably watched all three of these films by the time we talked about this. But one of the theories I always loved hearing and like, rewatching the film on, it's always fun to see it in that light. As if that's the intention. But, like, shows how versatile both actors are. [00:51:23] Speaker B: As. [00:51:23] Speaker A: I love the theory that the lighthouse is a purgatory but for one singular person and that it's Dafoe's character and that makes Pattinson a younger version of him. Where, like, the constant. Like, it's almost like they live the lighthouse scenario on loop and it's basically Wake trying to save Winslow, trying to save a younger version of himself from being. You know, I think there's one moment in the film where people thought they theorized this, that this could be accurate. Where, like, Winslow admits a dark secret in his past and Wake is constantly telling him drunkenly, like, please don't tell me. And people thought like, theory wise, like, what if that's when the loop happens again? Is when Linzloe admits that, like. And I. But I love watching that. Yeah. Watching. You can't help but watch Dafoe, whether you believe in that theory or you believe in other theories. Watching Dafoe knowing there's so much more that he's aware of in their current state than Pattinson does, and it makes him more threatening. Like, there's a scene later in the film where Dafoe is basically like, you know, Pattinson says, like, he's, I found you out. You're a fraud. And there is a change in Dafoe's face that is so subtle yet so uncomfortably unnerving. Where he goes from like, oh, I've been had to. You can't. You can't uproot this tree. I'm right fucking here. You can try. But I'm. I still have. I'm still at the upper hand in this. You think you have something, but you don't. And it's like, God damn it. Like, I. This is the type of film where I think both of these guys have career high performances in this movie. But there's no way you give these guys awards because I don't know how you convince an awards team. Like, I don't know how the BAFTAs could watch this film. He's like, these guys are incredible. Gosh. The scene where Willem Dafoe is butt naked in front of the lighthouse is something else. [00:53:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Screaming about lobsters. [00:53:28] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, hark God, he is. Yeah. And, like, both of them are just putting on this accent that, like, I think only Pattinson is the one that gets near into modern day Boston when he gets towards the end of the film. [00:53:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:44] Speaker A: But he's still. They just commit to the physicality and it is very much like, oh, yeah, Eggers works best when he has people around him that is just like, old enough that he could be like, hey, I need you to go harder on this. And that guy's gonna be like, okay. Yeah. Which is why I'm excited about Nosferatu. I mean, there are. I think there are child actors in Nosferatu, but the main cast is like, Dafoe, Nicholas Hoult, Aaron Taylor Johnson, like, and also fucking Bill Skarsgard. [00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Fucking Pennywise is playing the vampire. Or the vampire. Yeah. [00:54:20] Speaker A: So it's really exciting. Like, I think it's a film where, like, if I had not seen the Lighthouse and saw a trailer for Nosferatu, I think I would be like, oh, that's really cool. I'm excited. But seeing the Lighthouse as well as the witch as a back end gets me pumped. Because it's like, okay, now I can see when Eggers really wants someone to go hard and he's going to push them how far an actor is willing to go for him. And not because they feel like they're pushed in a corner or like they're being, you know, threatened by Eggers, but more like they're all on the same wavelength. [00:54:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I can imagine how, like, fun of a sandbox this movie would have been for the three of them. Obviously not without its adversities. Yeah, no, the on location shooting and everything, but like just the opportunity to get to do this kind of, you know, one room, so to speak. You know, two hander in these very specific dialects in a very specific period, doing very weird and out of control emotions. Like that had to have been just a blast. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you get a little bit of that in the Witch when it comes to the oldest son of the family, because there's a big scene with him where they try to help him after the witch. That is like very much. That kid has a very intense scene and you can tell that, like, that kid rules at that scene, but they clearly don't want him to hurt himself doing that. And then hard cut to like the Lighthouse where it's like, these guys probably did hurt themselves at times doing these scenes. Yeah, especially like the. How wide. I never knew Robert Pattinson's eyes could be that wide until I watch this movie. And then just like there's a scene where it's just a shot looking up at Pattinson and it just won't cut from his eyes. So white. Oh, yeah. Especially the ending, too. Gosh, that's probably like a phenomenal. That's like, I think a top tier ending in terms of just like, this is how you get it done. This is how you really, like, pull people in and make things really uncomfortable without having to be like, cheap in terms of just like, why it does that. And yeah, the Lighthouse is great. Love the Lighthouse. Honestly, if the Witch wasn't a perfect film, in my eyes, the Lighthouse would be my favorite of the three up here. The Lighthouse is like an easy four and a half out of five. [00:56:49] Speaker B: I'm probably flip flop of you on that. [00:56:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. [00:56:54] Speaker B: I love both these movies, but the Lighthouse is just magic for me. [00:56:58] Speaker A: And honestly, I think a lot of it I. With me too. It's got to be memes. Memes definitely help. [00:57:03] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like I said, you know, with it kind of evolving into a comedy for me over the years, you know, I mean, it's. It's. When I watched it for this podcast, I was like, damn, is this. I think it's only the third. The third time I watched the movie in the five years since it came out. But after watching it this time, I was like, is this a movie that I, like, want to rewatch every year as like a cozy movie like it might be. That is, you know, the quotability of it. I love that the kind of intensely close quarters ness of it just make, you know, fucking rain pelting the windows of the lighthouse and stuff. I'm just like, ooh, I want to watch this like every November. [00:57:47] Speaker A: I mean, the score is again, just like the Witch. The score is just haunting. [00:57:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:52] Speaker A: And very sparse. But when it does pop in, it is like the perfect times every time. And it is. I honestly, I'm glad that the film has gotten more love over the years. I mean, compared to the Witch, the Witch had like a 50 to 60 million dollars box office. This had I think 16, maybe 17. So like it had a low box office because a lot of the word of mouth basically was like, I think told people it's not the witch. Don't expect that. People were still confused and maybe a little bit disappointed in the film. But I think the film has gotten more respect and love over the years as more people have been able to watch it or give it a chance. And honestly, if that's the case with Eggers films, I mean, I want all of his films to be huge successes. But like, we'll talk about the next film because the next film, it's even worse in terms of box office. [00:58:45] Speaker B: It's an interesting arc at the box office. Yeah. With the first one you've got, you know, this small budget that makes 10 times its budget back at the box office. And then with this one doesn't quite double. It doesn't quite double its box or double its budget in the box office. [00:59:05] Speaker A: But in the process of the Lighthouse coming out initially there were already talks about Eggers next project, which was a Norse tragic epic that was going to be very high budget. Again, this is again shows just how popular and just how much, you know, the. The whole industry was aware of just how Eggers is. They went from 4 million for the witch, 11 million to the lighthouse to a reported 70 to $90 million for our next film, the Northman. A film that is not horror or at least has horror elements you wouldn't expect. It is. It's. I mean, the best way, I think I put it in my letterboxd review, the best way I can describe the horror in the Northman is if the witch's horror is about, you know, just the supernatural aspect of just like the unknown in the woods and just witches in general. And the Lighthouse is basically, you know, losing oneself, whether it's in monotony or just being Alone on an island with some other person. The Northman's horror derives from. Isn't it just. Wouldn't it just have been awful to live in this period? [01:00:19] Speaker B: Like it really isn't historically miserable? [01:00:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it is not a horror film. This is based off of the story of action epic. Yeah. This is based off of the tragedy of Amleth, which is Amleth, which is basically, in case you don't know, is the tragedy that inspires Shakespeare's Hamlet. So now we're at a point where there are so many Hamlet adaptations that Robert Eggers, the man, the myth, the legend, has to go before Hamlet and go and adapt the original Hamlet. And basically, I mean, when the Lighthouse was coming out, there was already talks about the fact that this cast was stacked. Anna Taylor Joy was coming back. Nicole Kidman was gonna be a part of the film. Alexander Skarsgard was gonna be in the film. Ethan Hawke, Willem Dafoe, after, again, the Lighthouse at this point had kind of either come out or had barely been out by that point. And Willem Dafoe is already working with him again and his biggest cast. It's gonna be the biggest budget yet. It was gonna be the most locations because it had to be taking place in just. I think it's like AD890, like when the film starts. And so it's like the film is already selling people on. Holy shit. The guy that did the witch in the Lighthouse, which has such great accuracy to its eras, are doing like an old. Like Viking Norse. [01:01:42] Speaker B: Yeah, like tragedy. [01:01:44] Speaker A: That's awesome. The film comes out and the response is interesting. I will say when I initially saw this. Cause I don't think we saw this together. I think. I don't know. [01:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think so. [01:01:56] Speaker A: Because the situation is like we saw the Lighthouse together. You had a very interesting experience when you saw the Witch in theaters, but we didn't see that together either. And then when it came to the Northman, I think that was a. When that came out, it's a weird thing because the critical response was very high. People really enjoyed that film critically. Audience scores, though, across the board were very divisive. And it was very curious to see that, especially since, you know, the trailers ruled. The trailers for this movie are awesome. I love the Northman trailers and I think it very much has the same energy as the witch and the Lighthouse in places until you get to the action set pieces. Something that by this point, Eggers highest high octane action sequences are a dance sequence in the Lighthouse and Black Phillip's Rampage and the Witch. [01:02:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:02:57] Speaker A: Like to have this director, who is not known for his action sequences, commit to forced oners that are just like, very exquisitely well done, but clearly, painstakingly, as well as these big. This bold landscapes that are clearly shooting on location regardless of the weather or not, and are going hard into the mythology of the time as well as the story and committing to, again, just having that same accuracy to the timeline as well as the time frame as well as the story itself. And to have all the things that make the other two films such a popular hit in their respective circles, to have the Northman be considered a disappointment by some people is interesting. And so going into it, there was really not much to expect other than like, oh, what is this going to be like? I'm hoping for the best, but the reviews have been interesting, depending on who has seen the film. And I will be honest, I don't know if this is the same case for you. It might have not been. I didn't know until halfway through the film that it was the original Hamlet tale. I didn't know that. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't know. [01:04:16] Speaker A: There's a part of me that thought it was going to be original because the Witch is an original story that is basically taking texts from that era and kind of compiling ideas and methods, fictional narrative, myths. Yeah, well, as the Northman, it kind of felt like that was going to be the case as well. At least when people were selling it. [01:04:34] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:35] Speaker A: So in halfway through the film when it was like, hold on, this seems very Shakespearean, almost only to find out, oh, wait, this is the original inspired Hamlet. Yeah, Shakespeare took. [01:04:47] Speaker B: Which was not. Yeah, it's not really. Was not really leveraged at all in like, the marketing or the way about the film, which I can kind of understand because. Yeah, you know, you don't want to pigeonhole yourself into people expecting, you know, if you say this is the story that inspired Hamlet, people are gonna go into it and expect a version of Hamlet, which is not necessarily how inspiration works. You know, obviously there's tons of parallels between this and Hamlet, but, you know, Shakespeare did clearly change some things for his version of the story. [01:05:23] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Well, his version of the story is perfect for, like, the stage. It's very much written for the stage. Well, as this is like very much perfect, like, very much feels like it's still in line with the original text in a way where it's like the sets, the wild, the moments that are like trying to do that on a stage where it's like the amount of moments where Amleth is basically high and having a tripping moment. That's something where it's like, how could you really do this in the same way on stage? Or something like that in a stage production? Clearly, this is in the narrative, in the original text. And Eggers, of course, I think those are some of the moments where the film shines the best. In the more psychological, supernatural moments where you can't really tell if it is very much supposed to be like, literally a spirit is talking to this man or this is just like his own manifestation of his vengeance and his goal, coming out as Bjork or as this fox that just won't leave him alone. And it very much is, I would say, the film. [01:06:39] Speaker B: The. [01:06:40] Speaker A: I liked it a lot more on my rewatch. I haven't seen it since. I've seen it in theaters. I think leaving the theater, I was like, I know that this is my least favorite of the three of his films. [01:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:52] Speaker A: But I don't know if it's because of my expectations or the actual film itself. And I think after rewatching it, I do think it is definitely the film itself. But that doesn't make the film, I think, any less great overall, to me, because I think the film just. The painstaking, like you've already brought up for the other two films that we both have, the painstaking nature this film goes to. Capturing the clothing, the architecture and the buildings, the traditions, the speech. There's even a moment where I'm pretty sure that Donna Taylor Joy speaks the Old Norse Nordic. And it's like there is a commitment here that you're seeing. All the best parts of the lighthouse and the witch are coming back in the Northman. The difference, though, is I do think out of these three films, the pacing is a little bit slower in this one. [01:07:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:49] Speaker A: And I think the biggest thing that. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Sucks about it's gotta be the longest of the three, right? [01:07:54] Speaker A: It is, because I think the Witch is just under two. The lighthouse is about an hour 50. [01:08:00] Speaker B: Yeah. It's about 220. [01:08:02] Speaker A: Yeah, 220. And again for 220. I think the first time I saw the film, I felt like it was too long. And then I think watching it now, it's like. No, I think it's fine enough. It's. It's. It's moody and atmospheric and it certainly could, you know, pick up the pace in certain spaces, for sure. But I think the biggest aspect of this film that I think is, you know, the most lacking, I think, are the characters and the performances in a way where it's like, I think. I think Skarsgrd is fucking incredible in this movie. But there's not really a lot for him to do other than like the baseline you are Amleth. The intensity he brings to the role is like the best stuff is like the moments that clearly were added or were more lingered on from the original text of like, I don't. I assume that his the vanguard or like the. The beast men becoming beasts is not as long of a scene in the original. But that scene shows just his dedication because not only was Skarsgard the lead in this film, he was one of the producers, executive producers on the film. So like, this is definitely a story that he was like, oh, this is for me. I would love to do this. And he looks phenomenal. He is intense and is terrifying when he goes full just like buff mode. [01:09:26] Speaker B: His ability to channel rage is impressive to say the least. [01:09:31] Speaker A: I mean, they're just. They're little moments he makes. There's like one. I mean, it's. I watched it with Adam and Adam because he had never seen out of these three films, Adam, like was shocked when he grabs the spear and just throws it back. [01:09:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:09:47] Speaker A: And he's like, did that just fucking happen? And it's like, oh, we just started. [01:09:50] Speaker B: And also that's like the first thing action wise, that happens in the movie. [01:09:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And just from that point forward, like Amleth is shown at that point as an adult, is an animal. Yeah, he is very much like, it is not nowhere near. It's almost like the film is trying to tell you, hey, guess what? If you've already caught on that this is Hamlet, we're trying to make it clear that this is not Hamlet. At the same time, story wise, narratively. Yes. But this version of Hamlet is an absolute monster that is just going to wreck you if you get in his way. There's just certain shots where the blocking is so much fun in terms of just like watching Skarsgard seeing like in a combat sense, like what times he hits people with like the actual tomahawk or like when he turns it around just to like be blunt about it. Or like there's this fun little blocking where they're trying to take the camera from one side of a house to the other side and they do it by Amleth pushing a guy onto the wood and then just slicing his neck to the other side. And then there's a splatter all over the wood. Yeah. [01:10:58] Speaker B: Across the wall. [01:11:00] Speaker A: I think it's pretty clear that a lot of people's disappointment came from the fact that, like, this scene fucking rules. And there's other great scenes that are very similar to this, but it's very few and far between. This is a drama call even feels weird calling it an action film because the action is very much like, it is important to the plot when it needs to be, but it's not a big proponent. Like, all. Sometimes a lot of the actions up. [01:11:27] Speaker B: A lot of the movie. [01:11:29] Speaker A: No, like, I think in total there are four scenes, maybe five of, like, prolonged, like, blocking action stuff. There are little scenes of, like, you know, him stabbing people that have no way to, like, get back at him from it. But, like, there are some good moments, like, I think, like, him getting the sword is a really good action sequence where it's like he. There's like, this magical sword that he has to get from basically this little tomb out of nowhere, and he has to fight like, a skeleton right inside. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Like the hull of a ship or something. [01:12:06] Speaker A: It's like. It's like a hull of a ship. [01:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:08] Speaker A: And he has to put him. It. Push him into the moonlight. [01:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Fun little kind of moments like that remind me of stuff like the Green Knight, where it's like, okay, yeah, very much tapping into a mythology here. And these are the trials of the hero and things like that. [01:12:22] Speaker A: And it's funny that you bring that up too, because I remember Adam bringing that up when we talked about it. And I think what I find fascinating and why. I would probably, I guess technically argue why I like the Green Knight more to a sense, is like, the Green Knight is also focused on accuracy in that. And authenticity of that era for a yeet old English tale about Gawain and the Green Knight. But what's great about the Green Knight, and I think in its own way, is the fact that that is a film that is taking an old folk tale and trying to put a modern spin or look at it, evaluate it in a modern sense, which leads to some changes to the story that feel very much like clearly this is not the original text. But I feel like, in my opinion, it elevates the narrative in a modern sense. [01:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:10] Speaker A: Choices. [01:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. The Green Knight feels a little more cohesive in the sense that it feels like it's being approached with a kind of a singular. I guess it all feels like it's a part of a very specific vision to bring this story back to life in a modern way. Yeah. The Northman feels a little bit more like an experiment For Eggers himself to like, test, what can I do? You know, like, if I get more money and I decide to go bigger scale, what can I pull off? [01:13:45] Speaker A: The Green Knight is like a living fairy tale. It's almost like you are being told the story from someone's perspective who lived at that era. And while the Northman starts like that as well. Because the Northman basically starts with. [01:14:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:01] Speaker A: In kind of an introduction of like. Let me tell you this tale. The Northman very much unlike Green Knight, where the Green Knight. Basically the Green Knight has, you know, creatures. It has ghosts. Literally. The fucking. The Green Knight himself is. Is like a tree man. Yeah. [01:14:18] Speaker B: So, like, isn't that Ralph Innocent? [01:14:19] Speaker A: It's Ralph Innocent as well. [01:14:21] Speaker B: Speaking of. [01:14:21] Speaker A: Speaking of. But in the Northman, Eggers very much feels like there is no. There's nothing a part of his interpretation of the Northman that is trying to look at it in a modern sense. It is very much feels like he is taking the text verbatim and just basically like if you take anything in a modern sense from the text, it is because you yourself live in 2024 while this story takes place in the 900. And I think it makes them. It's like, honestly makes the story interesting, like rewatching and being like. Yeah, you don't have to really put a lot of horror elements in this because watching a house burned down with like a bunch of people in it because, like, you know, they want to, you know, quench the bloodline of this little town in the Russ area, it's kind of horrifying enough as it is. As well as, you know, discussions of slavery as well as, like, you know, the medical parts of that, like, where the fact that like Ethan Hawke's character has like a slice to like his liver. [01:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:21] Speaker A: And it's like, oh, that is. He's just. He has a full blown wound that's just chilling on a piece of bandage. Like, that's just not. It is very much. Or like there's one shot. I think it even like it shook Adam where like there's a part where Omeleth is running away from. If you don't know the story of Hamlet, like, it's the big part of like Omelet's uncle betrays the family. [01:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:44] Speaker A: And so Omeleth has to run away because he's apparently, he's the heir to the throne. So his uncle's trying to kill him. And there's one scene where his uncle's men, as Amleth is running away just throws a Woman off the fort just throws her off. And it's just like. It's just uncomfortable. It's just very callous. Very callous. Very much just like, this is death. And that is like, the strongest parts of the film are the ones where it's just basically being like, Amleth is the protagonist. That doesn't make him a hero. And that takes you whether you want to really, what you take from the story in terms of. Is it a cautionary tale of vengeance? Is it a story about just, you know, heroism in a. At a time where it's like, heroism is being this brutal? Is this a story of just like, you know, the endless nature of violence? Is it a mix of all of them? Yeah, like, it's just like, very much so is. It's a very bleak, dark film that looks incredibly. It looks beautiful mainly because of its vistas and, like, the moments where it's able to be more striking in. Because, like you said about, like, the lighting in the Witch, a lot of the lighting in the Northman is just pretty fucking natural in the daytime and whatnot. And it's usually some of the most stylistic shots are when the lights are off. You only just have, like, candlelight or torchlight. And it's. I mean, I'm. I haven't heard you much say about your opinions on the film in terms of where you stacked from when you saw it in theaters. [01:17:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, I remember watching it in theaters and kind of similar to what you said, like, you know, feeling like it's weaker than the other two, but, like, I still enjoyed it. I think over time, like, thinking about the film and then kind of additionally re watching it for this podcast, I've kind of soured on it a little bit more, and I think it ultimately, like, boils down to kind of what I was talking about earlier with it being an experiment for Eggers, which is not inherently a bad thing. And in fact, I love to see filmmakers I like do things they haven't done before and try new types of. Types of films. So respect the swing. Absolutely. But I think a lot of my issues with the film. My mic is falling. Hold on. Give me a second. [01:18:12] Speaker A: You're good. You're good. [01:18:14] Speaker B: I don't know what's happening here. [01:18:15] Speaker A: I think your mic really likes the Northman. [01:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's running away from me. It's like, no, you don't get to say this, but yeah, I think where my issues kind of come in with the Northman is just in those elements that are kind of outside of Egger's wheelhouse, where it feels like, okay, he's trying something he's never done before. There's going to be some growing pains. He's doing something at a scale he's never done before. There's going to be, you know, some hiccups. You know, I think, you know, a lot of people, I think, took issue with the movie not having enough action, like they were expecting more. I didn't really mind that the action was sparse. I think what, you know, maybe didn't work as well for me is that, like, you can see a lot of, I don't know, like, just inexperience or shortcuts taken and, like, the fight choreography and the editing around it. Like, that Oner is really cool with the way the camera moves through that village as the Amleth and his guys are ransacking it. But, like, the beat for beat interactions between him and the people he's killing, you can kind of see the, like, you know, the pulled punches and the waiting for an attack and things like that. And then on top of that, I think just the. These three movies kind of go progressively more straightforward in narrative. Not necessarily more straightforward in, like, you know, their ethos or style or anything, but in narrative more straightforward. And so when you get to the Northman, you've kind of. You're also going further back in history in terms of the source material that Edgar is looking at to where you're looking at, you know, kind of a story that's kind of a building block of modern storytelling. You know, you've got literally the inspiration for Hamlet, which is the inspiration for everything else. You know, and so we're kind of. We've kind of narrowed ourselves down to, like, a story about how violence and vengeance are corrosive. And that's fine. There's lots of great movies about that. But it kind of is just that. At least for me, I didn't. I don't get a lot of other, I don't know, brain food out of this movie. Beyond. Well, yep, he's. He's condemning himself by pursuing revenge. Cool. [01:20:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:47] Speaker B: And Skarsgrd's great in that role. You know, he's. That rage is just pouring out of him, and he's incredible. But for me, it felt like it was kind of in service of like, okay, I pick up what this is putting down, like, an hour into the movie. [01:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's one of the weakest parts about the movie is the fact that, like, I think out of the three of these I think since this film is based off of a specific narrative, like he said, a narrative that is a building block for modern storytelling in a lot of ways, it very much feels the most rigid when it comes to what you can do. Because in all honesty, he doesn't want to push farther than what the original text says, it seems like. Because there's one angle to the film that I think would be very fascinating if delved into more. And then it's the idea of the fact that when Amleth reunites with his uncle and who his uncle has now married, his mom. Right. They have children. They have children. And they basically are his brothers. They're his half brothers. And there is, I think, one or two conversations where it's like, are you willing to kill not just your uncle, but like all of his sons? Because, like, if you kill the uncle, it's just gonna be a you again. Yeah, Be another omeleth. Like, are you gonna be able to do that? And there's. There's one, like the oldest half brother who looks like if Bernard from the Santa Claus was a Zack Snyder film. Yeah, he's. He's a shithead from the get go. [01:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:24] Speaker A: There's no real moments of actually liking the guy, even when, like, he's trying to be nice. He's a dickhead. And then there's the youngest who at a certain point in the film, Amleth saves in some way, shape or form in a scene. Which is kind of hilarious because it doesn't make any sense in terms of why he gets hurt. But it is what it is. The movie still does in an interesting way. But it is very much so when it gets to the point of him wondering whether or not he should kill. Like, can he leave his brothers alive? Will they understand his plight? The answer is pretty clear. Yeah, from the beginning. And though. So it's like there's no real tension when it gets to that point. Right. Honestly, even one of the brothers death kind of is a shock when it happens because it's so unceremonious. And it is. It's one of those things where, like, this is a film that has great actors. I would even say the uncle, I believe his name is Klyn Bang cl. He's phenomenal. I think he's great in the film as well. Willem Dafoe and Ethan Hawker both have smaller roles, but are both just like when Willem Dafoe shows up and is pretending like a hot dog is his wiener and making just lewd gestures and jokes as a jester. That is Just like delightful. Willem Defoe as a jester. Feels like an easy three base steal. Like that is just like, okay, that's good. But everyone I think is really, really good in the film. Great ensemble. I just don't. They don't get a lot to work with to the point where like, yeah, like Nicole Kidman as the mom is so just there. [01:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:08] Speaker A: Until she reveals like her like her interest in the scheme. Her scheme. But in that scene you get Nicole Kidman working with dimension in a way that you didn't think this character had. And it becomes more despicable but also interesting and shows like, oh, this is why Nicole Kidman's here. Because for the most of the film you're just like, is she here because of star power? Because my God, she is just there. [01:24:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:36] Speaker A: And that scene is like her best scene, I would say her only phenomenal scene in the film. [01:24:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:42] Speaker A: And like, compared to like, you know, Anna Taylor Joy, who again, at this point there is a six year gap between the witch, when the witch comes out, when this movie comes out and on Taylor Joy is not in the same space in terms of just like popularity wise as well as schedule wise. So when you have Anna in this, it's like, oh, thank fuck, Aunt Taylor Joy is going to. She's going to rip in this movie. And then you watch it, you're like, that's right. She's not Amleth. So there's not really much she's given. It's okay. It's a romance that is very much like, yes, they are two beautiful people. I'm fine with them being together. Like, that's kind of like the baseline to their romance. And also when it becomes like what she means for Amleth as a character, especially towards the end of the film, like, it's very much like you, like I think you said it about an hour in, you get where the film is going. And it doesn't change from that. [01:25:40] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. So it's not really trying to surprise you. [01:25:43] Speaker A: No. And I think that begs the question, I guess in my sense if someone's asking me like, okay, Logan, but why is it still like a 4 out of 5? I think to me it's just the aesthetic. Sure. I think this is the type of film where I can. [01:25:55] Speaker B: Well rendered. [01:25:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I can understand why some people give this a five out of five and why some people give this like a two out of five. Because this is like if you are not invested in the era, that is totally fine. Like this is like A very specific feel and very specific story that I think out of these three films might be the most like. That's okay. Maybe not for me. This. I don't know. I just like the locales, the commitment to like early on when it comes to like his vengeful, like how he's going to find his uncle, as well as just Skarsgard's dedication to the character as well as the. The weirder stuff when you finally get the, you know, the. The fates, basically. The fates in the Hamlet. Who is Bjorn in this as the witch and you know, the fox and like all the trials he has to go through where it's like basically he's going like, oh. The appeal is, is like it's Hamlet. If Hamlet like was killed people and was like a Norse. It was like a Norse legend leading to a finale that I think is like on paper sounds really stupid and goofy, but I think the film handles it exceptionally well and I really just. I just like the ending and I think the film is like, okay, cut and dry. I think it's like a strong seven and a half, you know, easy eight, like a soft eight. And I'm. For any director, I feel like this is like, if this was their best film, they would be proud. But the fact that this is like Eggers weakest film, that's. I think that's a good sign in terms of his creativity because yeah, you can see in the film just how much like. God, I bet it's just like, oh, I bet this was stressful to try to do this, but it was stressful trying to do this and just like all the action sequences. Yeah, I can definitely see with your criticism about like the moments where just like. And now he hits him here, now he's coming down on him and it's like. Well, I feel like he could get easily hit while he's doing this moment. But no, that's how the choreography is. And very much so where it's like you see the promise enough that like if for some reason in the future Eggers wants to do another more action oriented film. Yeah, I feel like just hopefully it would be better just because of his experiences learning blocking and yeah. Choreography in this. [01:28:14] Speaker B: The guy seems like it feels like we're kind of watching a filmmaker and I don't. This is gonna sound insulting. I don't mean it to. But like it's like we're watching him kind of learn how to make movies on a really massive platform, a really tall platform, you know, especially with this movie because it's like he's doing a bunch of stuff. It's like, outside his wheelhouse, at least based on his previous two movies in terms of the scale of the story. And he's adapting a previous work and he's incorporating elaborate action sequences and, you know, all of this mythology and stuff. And, you know, it's. It's interesting to be able to watch a filmmaker work at this level and also feel like they're still kind of like figuring out what they want out of a movie. [01:29:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:10] Speaker B: And that's always interest. That's interesting to see because so many filmmakers at this level, either we don't get to hear from them as much, like, outside of the movie about what the process was like, or they're just so confident in their vision or their way of working that they're just like, you know, this is the movie I was always gonna make, you know? [01:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:32] Speaker B: And so, you know, Eggers feels kind of unique in that way in how high his place is in the film world right now compared to where it feels like he's at, like, mentally about his process. [01:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:48] Speaker B: I mean, it's very much how he's still learning. [01:29:50] Speaker A: Yeah. You can definitely. Especially, you know, I mean, I saw the film recently, this year, but, like, you know, in a sense, like, you can see parallels to, like, the feeling that this film has to like something like, you know, Coppola's One from the Heart. This is a much better film than that. Or like, you know, Spielberg's Jaws were like. That's a classic. And I would argue is better than this film. But, like, those are two films where you can clearly see directors learning as they go in certain spots where it's like this. Northman has these moments where you can see 10 out of 10, confidence. This was an idea, a vision in his head, and he nailed it. And nine times out of 10, it's the weird, abstract, very fever dreamy moments. [01:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:33] Speaker A: Because he's had experience with that more so than often that. And then it's everything else where you can see, like, I see Eggers in these scenes, but I haven't seen him like this before. And I'm wondering if he's trying to figure that out similar to, like, how they get. I think in any film, it's like he's learning on a. On a giant scale. [01:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:51] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Not everything goes to plan, which he has definitely talked about with the Witch and with the Lighthouse. He had those instances as well. But unsurprisingly, it's much different to have a film that is Eight times the budget of, like, Lighthouse and have that happen as well and be like, oh, shit, we got to figure this out or do that. And, yeah, for a Growing Pains film, this is pretty damn great, in my opinion. And I think it's still worth a watch. And if it's not your cup of tea, then, hey, it's not your cup of tea. But I. Because again, and I will also specify, I am not, like, a huge Viking guy. Like, I'm not like, a huge Old Norse era. Like, I don't. I mean, Andy can't see it because I have, like, a Christmas tree filter. I don't have, like, a Viking or ax or a helmet in my background. Like, I'm not a big Norse guy, but, like, I love it when creators are able to dip into a period of time and commit to it that they're really fascinated by. [01:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:51] Speaker A: And really commit to it and be like, isn't this actually kind of cool? Or fucked up, depending on the scene, when you look at it that way. And I think the Northman succeeds in that. I think it's the emotional resonance that it fails in a lot of ways that, you know, there's a lot of text kind of issues. [01:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:09] Speaker B: I mean, it's a little bit more. Yeah. Like, we're kind of. We're, you know, you're telling a really old story, and it's, you know, it's kind of like adapting the Bible. It's like, okay, we've got these sentences where this character does this thing, but we don't have the articulation of emotional intimacy. This could have been navigating that. [01:32:31] Speaker A: Yeah, this could have been, again, another Willem Dafoe film that is based off of an old text that is, you know, monumental to modern, you know, narratives, but, you know, never gets talked about as much because it's not as popular as his other artist stuff. But, like, this could have been a John Carter situation where, like, this is, like, John Carter is based off of a science fiction novel that basically informs. Influenced everything after it. But, like, when they made that film in, like, 2012, it just. It just didn't. It fell flat because, yeah, it's pretty much all the tropes you've seen for years and years, even though that series goes on for, like, six, seven books. [01:33:08] Speaker B: Right. [01:33:09] Speaker A: And then the Northman could have been in that wheelhouse in a worse sense, and thankfully it isn't. But it still has those kind of those growing pains of just, like, taking such an old story in an era where it's, like, Even people who haven't actually read Hamlet or seen Hamlet know just the big monologues or, like, you know, like, you know, the big, you know, holding the skull or, like, the ghosts or, like, just even the. Like, you probably talk to someone who has no idea of Shakespeare but the very bare minimum and probably could tell you the basic plot of Hamlet. [01:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:45] Speaker A: And so it's like, to basically make a film of the original text of that and try to convince people, like, oh, this is an adaptation worth watching because it's the original text, and it doesn't come in a way where it's not. It's not a piece of shit. But it's not surprising that people are just like, okay. Like it very much. I do think this film. If you watch this the first time in theaters like us, and you haven't really given it a rewatch, then I would recommend a rewatch because I think there are little things that Eggers does that very much works in the film's favor. And it just is. It happens. This happens when you have films like the Witch and the Lighthouse as your first two films. And those films are. We have both talked about the fact that Andy thinks the Lighthouse is perfect and still loves the witch. I think the Witch is perfect, but still love the Lighthouse. When you have films that are already like that and those are your first two films, chances are you're gonna get to a point where you make a film that is a bold swing that mainly hits but isn't like a home run. [01:34:55] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's also a matter of, like, you know, he's trying to expand himself and doing things he hasn't done before. And whenever you do that, you're gonna. You know, that's part of the process is you're gonna risk. [01:35:10] Speaker A: Oh, man. [01:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Am I, on one hand, am I alienating people who have become familiar with my work? And on the other hand, am I doing something that I don't know how to do? So it's like, both on the perception and the actual creation side, there is. You're inviting leeway for that, which the Northman, honestly, more than the other two movies in this trilogy, really kind of tease up my curiosity about Nosferatu. [01:35:41] Speaker A: No. Yeah. [01:35:42] Speaker B: You know, I'm like, okay, this is another adaptation, and it appears to be kind of carrying on more sort of the kind of, like, glossy, really well polished look that he kind of achieved in the Northman. But at the same time, he's going back to horror. He's going back to, like, you know, kind of Old. Old European. Not ancient European. Like. Like the Northman. [01:36:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:15] Speaker B: You know, and. And also pulling on kind of old cinema as well, in terms of, you know, Nosferatu obviously being a big example of, like, classic German expressionism and things. So it's like, where are we gonna land with this movie? You know, with. With him kind of now obviously taking everything he's learned from these three movies. [01:36:37] Speaker A: And I think it says a lot to just how talented Edgar's is, as well as how, again, I said before, in terms of getting this budget for the Northman. Northman was produced and distributed by Focus Features, which is a Comcast company, which is owned by Universal. Universal. Comcast. So it's a studio film to a degree, but it's more of the artsy brand. [01:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:02] Speaker A: And they clearly picked up his stuff because they're aware of his first two films. [01:37:06] Speaker B: Right. [01:37:07] Speaker A: And, you know, the Northman does not make its money back. It is a bomb. It's probably one of its most notable bombs in 2022. But Nosferatu is a Focus Features picture as well. Like, they. They're a part. [01:37:17] Speaker B: They clearly have, you know, faith in them. Yeah. [01:37:21] Speaker A: And they clearly. Or they were just like, wait, you're doing horror again? Oh, my God, here's money. He's going back. Yeah, I think that's a good. That's a good point, too, going into. Because I highly doubt if Nosferatu has the same budget as the Northman. I would be shocked. [01:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:39] Speaker A: But I. At the same time, it very much is, like, I am very excited to see the growing pains that he found on the Northman, how he subdues them or tries to, you know, perfect them. [01:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:52] Speaker A: In Nosferatu, when. I mean, it's also the. It's. This is because, again, this is also at a time. Because Nosferatu is just a rip off of Dracula. It was just. It is a rip off of Dracula to an extent. And we are in a weird time. We're in 2024. In 2023, we have gotten Dracula films that are too embarrassed to say that they are Dracula movies. So now we are ending 2024 on a film that is basically a German expressionist, you know, knockoff, not in a bad word, like the original. Nosferatu is iconic for a reason, but basically making a Dracula film in 2024 with Robert Eggers. And I think it shows just the kind of, you know, critical darling Eggers can be at a point where you can. A studio is willing to give him more than, like, $10 million on something like that, and not only just that, just to get a kid cast that, like, you know, one of the things about the Northman that I actually didn't look further into for this pod, but like Bill Skarsgard, who was going to be in Nosferatu as the titular vampire was supposed to be in Northman couldn't because scheduling conflicts. And then constantly talked in public about how while it made sense that he had to let go, he was depressed, he couldn't be in the Northman. [01:39:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:39:12] Speaker A: So now I'm curious that a man who felt like he missed his shot with Eggers and Northman, I'm very excited to see he does what he does. Now, coming into. And not only coming into an Eggers film, but being the creepy one in Eggers film, it's going to be very interesting. And yeah, I mean, Eggers as a director is one of the easiest, I think, episodes that we've had, just because it's like one. We have seen all three of these films going into this conversation, as well as the fact that, like, he is now six years into his career since his first film coming out. And it's eight years. Eight. Thank you. Sorry, I was thinking. I was thinking Northman, Northman time period. We're eight years since the witch had come out. And we are nonetheless excited. Even after the Northman was kind of disappointing to both of us in different ways, we are both nonetheless excited to see Nosferatu. So much so that it's like. I mean, we're both trying to plan on seeing it on Christmas, which, you. [01:40:18] Speaker B: Know, by the time the episode comes out, we will have probably seen it. But at the time of this recording, we have not. [01:40:25] Speaker A: We recorded this in February. That's how. [01:40:28] Speaker B: February of 2023. We're way ahead of schedule. [01:40:33] Speaker A: No, we recorded this right after the. [01:40:34] Speaker B: Northman came out, and we've already seen it twice. [01:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:40:39] Speaker B: At home. [01:40:40] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's the rise of Eggers. That is a. Robert Eggers is a director that has more than enough proven that he is a auteur that is worth following and has now gotten to a point where he is, you know, had his 4 million films and talked about his dream jobs to now getting to the point where we're getting his dream film out on Christmas fucking day. So, I mean, again, I'm excited, Will. Definitely. I mean it. We kind of talked about this already on the podcast. We may or may not do, like a quickie on that at some point or just wait until our best of 2024. We're both very yeah, we're both confident that it's gonna be in at least one of our best of list. [01:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's certainly one of the movies I've been looking forward to all year. Absolutely. And before that even. And yeah, I mean Eggers is just, you know, it's fun to have a director this well known and on such a big stage who's clearly like, you know, in the early stages of, you know, figuring out what they can do and what they like and still exploring with each new movie they make. You know, Eggers, I guess you could, you could if you wanted, like pin him down as the guy who makes creepy period pieces. But like each of his movies is so much more varied than that. Yeah. And I think he'll only continue to do to kind of surprise with the sort of projects he picks up. At least I hope. [01:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I hope so too. I mean, not saying that I would be sad if he just did horror films for the next decade, but he is the type of auteur where like I would love to see him dip his toes into. Literally, like if there is a genre that doesn't seem like his toes, cup of tea, like you know, from outside perspective. But he really wants to do like, I am not joking, like if he wants to do a full blown comedy, I'm there. [01:42:40] Speaker B: Right. [01:42:40] Speaker A: Like I'd love to see him do something like, or a western, like some things where it's just like, it just would be like, interesting is Eggers has proven himself to be interesting as a director with what he's chosen so far. I'm excited to see if that means he's going to continue strengthen his horror aspect, his horror kind of like, you know, diction, like his knowledge. Or is he really just going to like, you know, do a horror film here and there and then dip into other genres if need be. But yeah, that's the rise of Eggers. That is the end of our episodes for 2024. That is insane that we're at this point and in case you hadn't figured it out already, the next episode, our first episode of 2025, will be our best of special for 2024. It'll be interesting because I think both of us, you know, we've done these best of specials enough times that like we've kind of talked about each other's favorites of the year. But also we've all, I think we've whether intentionally or just subconsciously kept them away from each other to be surprising. [01:43:45] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I mean we talk about most of the movies we see. And so we, we get. [01:43:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:52] Speaker B: We get the idea of like, okay, I know Logan loved that movie. [01:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:43:56] Speaker B: But I, you know, we're not necessarily. We don't. Throughout the year, we don't really talk about, like, oh, yeah, that's my five. Or like, oh, yeah. Because we know these are my three favorites. Yeah. It's kind of like we know we're saving ourselves for the reveal. [01:44:11] Speaker A: Yeah. In case you don't think we still like each other. We do. We just think it's funnier that we just, like do these episodes and we talk all the time, but we just don't discuss our favorites. [01:44:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:21] Speaker A: I mean, I mean, come on, we're gonna probably have like a two plus hour episode. We might as well just two plus. [01:44:27] Speaker B: I think the last couple years it's been three. [01:44:29] Speaker A: Well, come on. [01:44:31] Speaker B: This year we're going for four and a half. [01:44:33] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, no, that's going to be for Venom 4. For heaven. [01:44:36] Speaker B: The Venom 4. Free. Cool. Is going to be four hours. [01:44:40] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Actually, I mean, I was. Yeah. I was actually thinking earlier in the week that if Gladiator 2 gets Denzel a Oscar nom, we technically have to. [01:44:51] Speaker B: Have to do Denzel Got another Oscar trilogy. [01:44:54] Speaker A: No, on Gladiator 2. [01:44:55] Speaker B: Just Gladiator. [01:44:56] Speaker A: Yeah. But, yeah, tune in on our socials when we talk about when we're going to release the best of 2024 special. We're still figuring out the date, but we're definitely going to do it early January. And then, of course, on that special, we will also talk about our first, you know, next few episodes because we already have an idea of what we want to do. There's one in particular we're going to do that Andy proposed and I think we're both excited to do for vastly different reasons than you probably expect. But as always, I'm Logan Sowash. [01:45:26] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:45:28] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.