Episode 83: Kevin Costner: Director (with Nick Rogers)

[00:00:19] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to odd trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan Sowash. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:24] Speaker A: In odd. Odd trilogies with Logan and Andy, we take a tree with films where they're tied. Bye. Cast and crew, thematic elements, numerical order, and we go through each film and discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding them. And, oh, boy. Folks, we have a truly weird but fun trilogy today, one that we have kind of talked about off and on, at least for a year, I would say. [00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, for a while. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Like, it's. Again, when it comes to this show, I think one of the things that really, I think, hooked you onto it when I kind of gave you the idea of, like, it doesn't have to be just a standard trilogy, is the idea of taking a trio of, like, an auteurtain. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Or like a rise of somebody, per se. And this is technically a rise of a certain actor as a director, but this is already pretty knee deep in their career. So it's more just discussing. [00:01:11] Speaker B: But it's the birth of a person's second career. [00:01:15] Speaker A: God, I literally thought you were gonna say birth of a nation, and I was just gonna fucking lose it. [00:01:20] Speaker B: No, no, no. [00:01:23] Speaker A: But, yeah. No. Today we are talking about Kevin Costner not as an actor, but as a director. This is Kevin Costner's first three directorial films. And I say first three because as of this year, and already at this point, our quickie has come out for chapter one of possibly four. We are discussing Kevin Costner's first three directorial debuts because he has a horizon, an american saga coming out today or today of this year with both chapters one and two. And then hopefully, if he refinances his children's homes, have enough money to do chapters three and four, along with his Yellowstone money. And so, in honor of Kevin Costner coming out of director Jail, which I feel like was his own doing, in. [00:02:10] Speaker B: One way director jail or director retirement, maybe some combination of whatever. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Whatever he wants to call it, I feel like Costner is at a point in his career. I think even in the nineties, he was already at this point in his career when he says, Kevin Costner is this. People will go, yeah, man, sure, if you want to do that. And because of that, today we are talking about three in some way, shape or form, whether iconic or notorious, in his careers. We are talking about his first directorial debut, dances with wolves, 1990. And then we're going to talk about the postman from 1997. And then probably the sleeper hit of the three, 2003 SDHe Open range, an eclectic trio. And a trio that has, you know, starts off incredibly strong for Costner in terms of credibility. And then, like I said, really getting to see where all those chips land in 97 with the second film and then going into the third one, it'll be, oh, I think it'll be a lot of fun to talk about. Cause I feel like I'm in the right space for open range conversations, especially with how we were talking as I was watching, like, through my. Watch through. [00:03:19] Speaker B: Oh, yes, you're. Well, we're both in the right space. We are also blessed to be joined by the right person. We have a very special Costner expert, a Costner head, if you will, joining us. He is the co founder, editor, one of the most prolific writers as well. From Midwest Film Journal, we are joined by the marvelously intelligent and Witty Nick Rogers. [00:03:46] Speaker C: Well, I'm not going to be able to live up to that kind of introduction, but thank you so much for having me on here. [00:03:52] Speaker A: It is an absolute pleasure to have you, especially since for the last month and a half, I've been seeing your litter box reviews, talking about Costner films as if you're going to defend him in court. [00:04:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:02] Speaker A: So this has been. [00:04:03] Speaker C: Andy was up front about that, that this is not going to be some kind of ambush where, you know, I'm asked to present a case for the. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Defendant, but I was worried that you thought this is going to be a postman situation where we were going to shoot you in the street for loving the new United States of America. That's why you didn't want to meet in person, because we're doing this. [00:04:23] Speaker C: Well, I also told Andy that I think my defensive position is probably rooted in the conversations that I have about Kevin Costner with my colleague Evan Dossie, who does not like this mandeh. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Just as a, just as a general rule, I think. [00:04:39] Speaker C: Yeah, as a general rule, I gotta. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Ask him why he doesn't like him. That's fascinating. [00:04:43] Speaker C: Yeah. He hates with a passion one of the movies that we're talking about today. [00:04:48] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Oh. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Might not be the one that we. [00:04:53] Speaker C: Expect, but if you'll find out, you'll have to listen. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Oh, my lord. If it's not the one I'm thinking of, I cannot wait to ask him questions. [00:05:02] Speaker B: Well, Nick, since you are, I know so well prepared for this defense, why don't you give us a little, just a little spiel of, like, your history with Kevin Costner? Why you feel so drawn to it? [00:05:14] Speaker A: Oh, please do. [00:05:14] Speaker C: Sure. Well, I mean, I think part of the best preparation that I have for this is that I'm just. I'm old. When you're 44 and you've been watching movies since you were a kid, I mean, you grew up watching Kevin Costner movies. I mean, and especially if you had cool parents like I have, who didn't care if you were watching the untouchables when you were nine years old. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Hell, yeah. So we support parents that give her diploma early in childhood. [00:05:42] Speaker C: That's right. [00:05:42] Speaker A: That's right. [00:05:44] Speaker C: So, I mean, really, he was along with Tom Cruise and, you know, a few select others. I mean, Julia Roberts being another one. I mean, he was just sort of the movie star when I was a kid and coming up and watching movies and, you know, watching everything I could and just kind of getting started. So, you know, I think there's also something. There's something interesting about him. And, well, obviously, it's impossible to talk about his directorial work without talking about the fact that this guy's had an insane number of lives in Hollywood as far as. [00:06:19] Speaker A: The old was the only other person that could be considered, like, head to head in terms of the rise and falls per se. Would Baldwin be even close to that, or was Baldwin even more crazy in that regard? Man, we're not talking about Steven. I'm talking about Alec. Sure, everyone out there. [00:06:36] Speaker C: I mean, I would say there are movies that Alec Baldwin has done that I don't think Kevin Costner would go near, even in his lowest moment. [00:06:47] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. [00:06:48] Speaker C: So, I mean, as far as resiliency goes, maybe just in terms of endurance. But, I mean, to me, it's almost like Costner is sort of like the, the great planes version of Tom Cruise. Like, he's just persisted. He's like, tom Cruise has had ups and downs. Everybody thought he was done after mission impossible three kind of tanked, and he did the couch jump with Oprah Winfrey and all that and the other. But look at Tom Cruise now. He's back on top. And, you know, at least in a tv sense, Kevin Costner was on top until just recently. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Dilly bailed. [00:07:24] Speaker C: Yeah. When he told Taylor, you know, tough, I gotta go make these horizon movies and mortgage my children's future. So. So I think what I like about him is that, you know, like Tom Cruise, albeit in sort of a different mode, he's not afraid to just go very big, very earnest, you know? [00:07:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:46] Speaker C: The power of the movies, it's sort of a different approach to it. And I think that there's sort of something cosmetically conservative about Kevin Costner. And I've talked a little bit with Andy about this, about Yellowstone, which is a show that I would not have expected to enjoy nearly as much as I did. But I really do. I think that there's something cosmetically conservative about what he talks about in terms of the westerns that he's made or the ideas that he's had, whereas I think he's a little more. I'm not going to say liberal per se, but I think he's just more challenging about these notions of romanticizing the great american west or in terms of the postman, where the great american future might be going. So I think that he's not afraid to challenge these things. He's not afraid to question these things. He's a pretty pragmatic guy sometimes. He's a pessimistic guy. And, you know, he still managed to be a movie star while doing all of this, too. You know, he's. I know you've talked about some of his movies before. I know you did the Sam Raimi trilogy. You talked about for game. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is fascinating because I just watched his, I think, variety favorite, like, you know, actor going through his career, and he's, of course, doing that for horizon. And when he talks about, for the love of the game, he doesn't talk about the story. He doesn't talk about Raimi or his ensemble. He talks about basically bullshitting his way to getting the Yankee Stadium in the, like, filming there. And it's just like, it's fascinating to hear, especially how much wild shit I heard about it in terms of. We also. We constantly make a joke about the release, the Costner cut, which is basically him. Yeah. Cause he wanted to be more full frontal nudity for Costner. [00:09:39] Speaker B: Cocket cut. Yes, cockroach. [00:09:42] Speaker A: The cockner cut. And, yeah, I mean, God, it. He is just so fascinating. Like, because, I mean, any listener here, and Andy knows this all too well, especially how many years we've done this, that I am just. I am a sucker for someone who will swing for a home run every time, even when they probably should be shooting for, like, a single or a double, especially in terms of, like, a filmmaking sense going big. Sometimes I will just appreciate the, you know, the. Try the ambition with. Sure, yeah, the ambition. And my God, does Costner have way too much ambition at times. And it's saying to see that, like, it's fascinating to see even now that that ambition is still there. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:23] Speaker A: So many decades, I mean, and after. [00:10:25] Speaker B: So much time away from the director's chair. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Like, horizon 21 years. [00:10:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Crazy ambition to just be like, yeah, I'd like to make four of these, and I might just do it all myself. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Could you? Again? I just. [00:10:39] Speaker B: If they'll allow me. [00:10:40] Speaker A: I know. I mean, gosh, I feel like you could make an entire behind the scenes series about, like, if you had recordings of, like, Yellowstone conversations with, like, Sheridan and Costner or other cast members. But I would love to hear if there was any recording of Costner telling Sheridan that he was basically leaving Yellowstone to make two thirds of a Yellowstone show by himself. Like, 12 hours. We're definitely getting at least three hour films out of the span. That's 12 hours of content. [00:11:08] Speaker C: And what's crazy, too, is at least the movies he's credited with directing. And we can talk about a couple of the ones that he's not officially credited with directing, but that's 3 hours more than. More than 3 hours more than the sum total of what he's directed so far with the surround project. So you've got two three hour movies. You've got one that's 215, 220. It's. It's. It's crazy, but it's. But it's the kind of crazy that's really admirable. Yeah. You know, I was. I was a fan of horizon. I could tell the people around me were very confused. You know, perhaps. Perhaps did not understand that it was part one. [00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:47] Speaker C: You know, seem completely baffled by the, you know, next time on Horizon montage, that movie. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Imagine getting hit with that, having no idea that this was meant to be the start of a series. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Yeah. But it says something a lot about Costner and his staying power, where it's like, if I went to my parents today and, like, asked them about, like, oh, are you excited for long legs? Are you excited about this film? And they'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. But as soon as, like, last weekend, I literally brought up that we saw Horizon. And, like, my parents and my grandparents were like, oh, like, how was it? Because he's just. It's fucking Kevin Costner, man. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Still has a hold on a whole swath of the population. [00:12:32] Speaker A: The Yellowstone. The Yellowstone team. Just like, fan base. I will no doubt watch whatever last season they have. But it's also like they're. They're willing to just be like, oh, I'll jump into this Costner thing if it's good. And it's like, guys, have you not seen. You were older than I have. You definitely have seen the films that he did before. Right? Because that's what Horizon felt like was like. This is probably what I expected on a base level in terms of how this was feel wise, especially after these three films. [00:13:03] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting that you bring up the parents and grandparents. I mean, you know, I remember going to a lot of these movies with my parents. You know, I saw Field of dreams with my dad. You know, I watched JFK with him at home. I went, you know, my dad had zero interest in seeing the bodyguard, so I went with my mom to go see that, you know, nice and, you know, tin cup, you know, even, like, I went to that with my parents. I mean, it was just. It was a good. It was a good opportunity to, you know, go to movies that I think we all three knew we would enjoy. And my. My mom is an avid Yellowstone watcher, and she is irate. She is irate at the situation that has booted Costner from this. Oh, yeah. [00:13:48] Speaker A: I think I've heard Taylor Sheridan is a coward more times in the last, like, month than I've heard in a very long time. And I'm like, it just, again, it's wild to hear people say Taylor Sheridan's name because it's just like Andy and I were one of those, at least with our friend group being like, please go see hell or high water. Watch Wind river. This guy's got something. And then as soon as Yellowstone hit, the man now has 18 different shows. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Paramount plus, and they all appeal to the exact same demographic. [00:14:19] Speaker C: And we've watched most of them. We've at least sampled them all. We bailed on mayor of Kingstown and 1883, because it was. 1883 is just cartoonishly grim. [00:14:33] Speaker A: That's the Tim McGraw one, right? [00:14:35] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Because the Tim McGraw one's 1883, and then the Harrison Ford Helen Mirren, 1923. [00:14:42] Speaker C: Yeah, that one's a little better. But, I mean, I think I noted in my review that first season did not have any more definitive a conclusion than horizon part one. So people who would knock one and love the other, they're kind of the same thing. [00:14:56] Speaker A: You know why those shows are paramount plus originals, right? Cause this is the thing that always shocks me about Yellowstone the most. And we will definitely talk about the actual films in here when we get to it. But, like, I think we talked about an earlier episode, but the fact that's so strange is that Paramount network, which used to be everyone's favorite channel, Spike at a certain point, was just going to be all movies, all reruns. They were not going to do any original content, but they still had two in the chamber. And they're like, okay, what are we gonna do? Well, we're gonna sell this one show to Netflix. It's not gonna do that. Well, Emily in Paris, it's now hitting its fourth fucking season on Netflix. Yes. And then they sold the streaming rights to Yellowstone, to Peacock, or as Andy calls it, poopcock, and pretty much was like, ah, this show's not gonna be more than one season. And it got so popular that Paramount felt so embarrassed by that decision, they basically forced into existence Yellowstone spinoffs just so they could have Paramount plus original that they could make money off of that were in the Yellowstone universe, which is just insane. It's just insane that we're at that point. [00:16:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And they will. They will pull back those Yellowstone rights proper the moment that that contract expires, I'm sure. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Absolutely. It's also just funny to think that they kind of had that same situation with South park and Warner Brothers. [00:16:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Oh, man. Paramount plus having a great time right now just existing as a streaming service. But, yeah, Costner as an actor, for sure, is just. Just as an actor is just like, there's too much to cover. Especially if we did a trilogy on which I think we've kind of talked about it. If we did a Costner acting trilogy, we could, per se, but we just thought it'd be more, well, odd. Wink, wink. To talk about these, just because, again, the one that starts this trilogy off is his most critically acclaimed. It is the film that beats Goodfellas for best picture. It's the film that gets him best director at the. At the Oscars. [00:16:58] Speaker B: It is, isn't it still the highest grossing western of all time? [00:17:02] Speaker A: I think it probably is. It's gotta be. [00:17:05] Speaker B: I know it was at the time, and I don't know what would have beat that since, but. [00:17:09] Speaker A: And it's also a film that has stood the test of time long enough that people in our generation have said Avatar is just dances with wolves with blue people. And I'm pretty sure most people who've said that have never seen dances with wolves in its entirety. [00:17:23] Speaker C: That is probably true. Or they just don't remember it. Yes. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah. But just to start off with dances with wolves, it is just fascinating finally going into this film, because, again, I'll be upfront. Never seen any of these films in full. Had always seen clips, had always heard about it. And to be honest, growing up, my parents, even though my parents really, I think, honestly love Costner throughout my life. In terms of, like, field of dreams, uh, probably more of his sappier stuff. And definitely just like, anytime Costner's on screen, give it a watch on cable. But, like, dances with wolves was always the film growing up being like, it's 3 hours long. Like, you don't want to watch this. And I go, okay. I mean, if that's the case, like, as a kid, I'm like, oh, it's that long. Yeah, that sounds really long. Like, I'm just not, like, I get at that age, especially if, like, get 2 hours at a certain age, you're like, that is the longest film I've ever seen in my life. And now in my lifetime, I'm like, 2 hours easy. Let's go for it. And so to finally get into dances with Wolves and just be just genuinely blown away by, like, how well the film still works 30 plus years later. Ah, it was a fun time. I really was glad that we. This is the one that starts it off well. [00:18:36] Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny too, because when I was, when I was talking to you about the, you know, the version to watch, it's, it's, it's weird that the, there's, there's two versions of this. And the, the only one that, yeah, that is most widely available on Blu ray is actually closer to 4 hours, which is Costner has said, you know, I make my movies long already. There's really no need for. To watch that one. He didn't, I don't think he really had much to do with the assemblage of that cut, but yeah. So this is one, I think the only one of the three we're talking about today that I did not see in a theater was the second film that we'll discuss. But I saw dances with wolves in the theater with my parents all 3 hours when I was, I would have been eleven years old, and I liked it then. So, I mean, but it had been a very, very long time since I had seen it prior to rewatching it for this. [00:19:33] Speaker B: What? I know there was a. No, this isn't based on a novel. It was. The guy who wrote the screenplay was like, turning it into a novel in the process of. [00:19:50] Speaker C: Sounds, right? [00:19:52] Speaker B: Michael Blake. Yeah, michael Blake, who was a friend of Kevin's and I guess was like living with costner at some point, like prior to this movie getting made, was trying to make it in the industry. Costner had already made it in the industry and he was kind of trying to help Blake out. He was like, you know, write stuff. I'll get you meetings with people. And that sort of thing. And I guess this Michael Blake spent a good decade trying to write this and trying to get it sold to studios and stuff. And of course, I think you, you know, heaven's gate had kind of killed westerns for the decades. [00:20:30] Speaker A: God, we need to watch Heaven's gate every time. It's come up so much more in the last few months that it's like, I need to see what this is. [00:20:38] Speaker B: I mean. Oh, go ahead. [00:20:41] Speaker C: No, just. You're right. I mean, as far as, like, you know, prestige, studio money, I think there had been maybe a little bit of a window that maybe opened this up, especially once Costner got involved. So young guns had come out a couple of years before dances with wolves and is obviously more of a pulpy story. Not a serious movie, a fun movie, but not a serious one that had done really well. And I think it had kind of cracked open the door a little bit for the idea of a western with a big star. [00:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And also, didn't Costner right before the untouchables, like a year or two before he did Silverado? [00:21:21] Speaker C: Yes, Silverado, which is. I'm of the heathen mind that I am not a fan of Silverado. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Well, because, like, all the clips I've seen of Silverado, like, he is a prominent part. He's part of the crew, but he has the energy of, like, Leo DiCaprio and, like, quick in the dead. [00:21:36] Speaker C: Yeah, that was one of, that was one of his first big breakout roles, really was. It was 85. So. But, yeah, he. I mean, again, I know I'm in the minority on Silverado, but, you know, mileage may vary. [00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it was also fascinating, too. Just about this, at least when Costner talks about dances with wolves, is that he doesn't talk about this film as if this is something that, you know, once he got the itch to direct, this is something he wanted to direct. In actuality, it seemed like what happened was they went through a pool of directors. A lot of directors wanted to cut certain aspects or add certain aspects that Costner didn't really vibe with. And just automatically, in the most Costner fashion ever, he probably said it in the most monotone, just chill way. Yeah, I'll direct this. And then that's just now we just have this fucking Oscar winning epic. Just because Costner is like, ah, I'll do it well. [00:22:29] Speaker B: And I think, like, by the point that they were even shopping it to other directors, I mean, obviously Michael Blake had been, like, working on it for a decade. And I think Costner had already told him at that point, like, hey, just turn it into a novel. Cause that's gonna be easier to get published because nobody wants to make these movies right now. Then they finally start getting some attention from directors, and I get the impression Costner just started to feel like, yeah, nobody's gonna make this the way it needs to be made. Like, the way it's written. They're gonna try and, you know, dilute it or adulterate it or whatever. And so, yeah, I guess he took it into his own hands. And it sounds like from his stories, while making the film, it sounds like it very much felt like a first time director at first. You know, he wasn't. He wasn't a director in training on his previous movies. Like, I think he's told a story about, like, literally screwing up the first shot on dances with wolves. Like, I just set it up and it was entirely oriented wrong. And I had to have the whole crew turn around and go the other way. [00:23:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I would love. I imagine if I bought this physically, it would definitely have a bunch of behind the scenes stuff because there has been some, like, behind the scenes footage of him and outfit, like, in full costume, talking to the extras and stuff. And it just. It's fascinating to think that, like, there could be any shred of doubt in Costner's mind just because of, you know, Costner always just exudes a bravado and sometimes an ego. They're like, I can get this done. But, like, with those kind of behind the scenes, there is just a very authentic man just wants to get this made the way he thinks it deserves to be made. And what comes in the final product is the film that has been memed to death in some way, shape or form, but has arguably stood the test of time incredibly well. [00:24:21] Speaker B: And just all the more impressive given how kind of. I don't want to say scattershot, but how inexperienced he was coming into it, that it feels this polished and is massive and grand. And I, you know, I have problems with the movie, but, like, really just works. And it's huge. And, I mean, even just on a technical level, the, you know, the large scale achievements that they're aiming for throughout this movie, like, with the herds of Bison and the, you know, war sequences and that sort of thing, it's just like how, you know, coming into this with zero experience, how do you even make it happen at a bare minimum level, let alone a many, you know, multi award winning level? [00:25:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:07] Speaker C: Well, what's. What's interesting, too, about the kind of the Oscar side of this is that, you know, you think that, okay, well, you know, maybe it was like this big, you know, studio push, you know, that was kind of popularized in the mid nineties, you know, with, you know, kind of throwing a, you know, glad handing promotional campaign behind this movie. I mean, this was very much kind of a unexpectedly, sort of grassroots Oscar favorite. I mean, you know, it did not have the campaigning, per se, that you associate with kind of the push to get a best picture nomination or a victory. There was really just sort of a groundswell for this movie. [00:25:50] Speaker B: And, I mean, it spoke to people. [00:25:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I think, too, you know, to watch it now. You know, I think there were people that wished there were more westerns like those that were popularized 30 years prior to this. And it. Yeah, you know, with the John Barry score and, you know, with the. The score is beautiful. The photography is beautiful. I think that ultimately, you know, this movie gets dinged. And, Logan, you had mentioned, you know, people call, you know, avatar dances with wolves with blue people, and kind of the notion of a white savior. And that was kind of a ding against this movie. I don't. Who does he save? I mean. [00:26:40] Speaker A: I mean, yeah, that I think. [00:26:42] Speaker C: I mean, this movie, you know, if we go into spoiler territory, I mean, this movie ends with the tribe being forced to retreat into the harshest, wintriest portion of the land that they can get to. And it basically just tells you they were wiped out within a few years time. [00:26:59] Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I mean, the movie makes no attempt, really, to revise the trajectory of the frontier historically. [00:27:08] Speaker A: No. [00:27:09] Speaker C: The whole white man's burden, quote, unquote, as it were, to document everywhere he goes is what was what damns these people. Cause they find his stupid journal and they're like, okay, well, let's go find these people and wipe them out. [00:27:22] Speaker B: Right? [00:27:23] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yeah. I think the thing that shocked me the most when Andy and I were watching this was just the fact that, like, there were moments when watching this where I was like, okay, this isn't problematic, but it could be considering, like, this angle or that angle, especially when it comes with. Is it Mary McDowell or Mary McDonald? [00:27:42] Speaker C: McDonnell. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:43] Speaker A: Mary McDonald's character, when she pops up. I turned to Andy and went, this could be that. We'll see where this goes. And the way that they use her character is so well done. It makes sense internally in that world. And just. It's fascinating that the film is basically about a civil war soldier with depression and PTSD realizing, after all of his life being told, you know, you basically, ah, this. The savage lands and the savages that live there. And just being like, I've related and I've, you know, been more compassionate and just become better friends with the Native Americans than I ever have with anyone around me. And I personally, as a white man in the Civil War era, don't know how to process this. [00:28:33] Speaker C: Right. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Well, it's. It's so good. [00:28:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, well, I think too, you know, so. Okay, the movie opens with him, you know, essentially attempting suicide. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:44] Speaker C: You know, riding, you know, into enemy fire and, you know, somehow surviving and being, you know, rewarded for his bravery. You know, what I think is really interesting about this movie? And, you know, the opening is not subtle about that. So I want to preface this. I want to preface this by saying the opening attempt is not subtle. But if you think about it, you know, this guy says, I want to go to this fort. I want to go to this fort in the middle of nowhere. Right? I've always wanted to see the frontier before it's gone, is what he says. So he knows that it's. He knows that the end is near. He knows the end is coming. And the whole first act of this movie, you know, and change until he meets the tribe. It's sort of a slow motion suicide attempt of its own. Right? Like, he gets out there, he's alone. Nobody knows he's out there because the colonel that has given him the posting kills himself within 30 seconds of Kevin Costner leaving, and his guide is. Is slaughtered by Native Americans on his return trip home. So nobody knows he's there. [00:29:48] Speaker A: I will say this after hearing all the critical acclaim with the film and just me and Andy going in, being like, all right, there's a good chance that a lot of what we heard is bullshit and we really enjoy this or the other way around. Let's go into it. Did not expect the first 15 to 20 minutes to be like two to three actors next to a depressed Costner. [00:30:08] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Chewing the fucking scenery until we get, like, ensemble. Yeah. The fact that, like, the one, the guy that leads him to the fort is like, eating beans and having fart stock effect. Like, stock fart effects. [00:30:21] Speaker C: There's lots of farting in this movie. [00:30:22] Speaker A: Yeah. And then he gets brutally fucking murdered, like five minutes later. And then the film becomes what I thought it was gonna be. But the fact that we went through that 1st 15 to 20 minutes really shocked me when we were watching it. [00:30:35] Speaker C: Well, and it's funny that you bring up too. I mean, the violent murder of the guide. I mean, this is a PG 13 movie, so it's not super bloody. But I think the severity of that sequence and also the Buffalo carcasses that they find later on. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:30:53] Speaker C: The specificity of how violent and how bloody those feel, I think, gets at. You know, what to me, Costner is trying to say is that, you know, this is a violent place. It will be taken by violence from the people who have made it their home. And there's nothing worth romanticizing about that. I mean, you can have beautiful imagery of a naturally beautiful place and still tell a story of how it was fouled. And I think ultimately, that's what makes dances with wolves hold up for me. You know, it. Does it have hokiness? Yes. Does it have corniness? Yes, but I think it holds up as a tougher minded movie than a lot of people have given it credit for. [00:31:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think a lot of the, you know, a lot of the shit that it gets, especially the kind of. In regards to its politics, or at least the. The aesthetic politics of it is kind of made worse in the context of, like, Costner's public Persona onward from this movie. Like, after the fact Postman does him no favors in that regard. And his kind of just general, no bullshit, kind of, like you said, pragmatic, sort of hard stance attitude about things. I think retroactively or retrospectively makes this one look a little bit more awkward, especially if you don't engage with it. You don't actually sit and watch all 3 hours of it and, you know, take what it's saying seriously. But I think you're right. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier when you were just talking about Costner in general, that, like, he does exist in these spaces that we kind of associate with, like, conservative rhetoric or the romantization of american history and things like that. But he's there in it kind of challenging previously held notions of them. And maybe he's not, you know, like, being, you know, extremely transgressive or whatever, but he is. He's. He's calling for some acknowledgement of the truth in the situation beyond. Yeah, it feels. [00:33:10] Speaker A: It really is trying to. Costner is definitely a huge fan of classic western era, but is clearly not trying to. Is not having as a crutch with his own directing in terms of making sure the script really grabs on to. Yeah. The rugged nature of, like, you don't really think of a John Wayne film doing the type of shit that this film does, just in a general sense. And so to see. And again, just to see Costner, especially in this movie too, where it's like, yeah, I think a lot of the reason why going back to this film is because if this was the one of the only three hour films that man did, I feel like this film would get less flack. But the fact that, like, this is the start of a decade of just fucking period epics that are not even just westerns, that are, you know, you fucking Robin Hood. You got Wyatt Earp, you got Waterworld, you got all these different longer films that Costner is involved in that most people probably go to dances with wolves and goes, ah, these movies are probably not that great because this film has never been great. And it's like, no, this film is actually really fucking good and has held up incredibly well and has a lot of authenticity and vulnerability, both behind the camera as well as in front acting wise. And it's just like, again, once you get past the general quoting what seemed to be Shakespeare or putting on an accent while blowing his brains out and then his guide farting and then dying by Wes studie is Wes studio the lead? Like, shooting him five times with arrows. Once you get to the aspect that I knew about dance with wolves, which is just, you know, learning the language, finding a common commonality and just really working from that angle. Do I think the film needs to be 3 hours? The answer is no. But I think in terms of just, like, you know, especially the other three hour Costner film we'll talk about today, I think, like, I think dances with wolves, I mean, at least, even though I don't think it, you know, deserves that long of a runtime. I had a good time the whole way through. Like, I think it just. And that's hard to do. Like, it's hard to do that. So it's like the fact that, like, going back and being like, this is a three hour western in 1990 that not only did well but also won oscars. That's kind of wild one. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Like all the oscars. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You know, a best director for a first time director. [00:35:33] Speaker C: Sure. [00:35:33] Speaker A: Just like, damn. [00:35:34] Speaker C: And if you think too, I mean, it's really interesting to me to see how influential this movie was in a couple of regards. Okay, so as Andy noted, westerns had kind of fallen out of vogue. And in box office terms, at least. Look at what came after this. Look at what came in the wake of this. Two years later, you have another western that deconstructs the whole genre altogether and does so, I would argue, in a better fashion with unforgiven winning best picture, you know, and then that same shit. [00:36:12] Speaker A: Unforgiven. Two years after this, I just relatively. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Didn'T even think Clint Eastwood saw this movie and was like, I got to get back out there. [00:36:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:19] Speaker A: Honestly, if I was Clint. Yeah. [00:36:21] Speaker B: I really think I got something else. [00:36:23] Speaker C: To say, you know, and then that same year, that same year, you have a swerve for Michael Mann from his usual work in the last of the Mohicans, which is nothing, not a western in the classical sense, but very much has that same vibe. And, you know, that's a fantastic movie as well. So that's one. [00:36:41] Speaker A: And also a film that has weirdly been tied with dances with wolves, except when people talk to me, like, talk to me about those. Cause I thought lost Mohicans was 3 hours. It's not even 2 hours. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:53] Speaker A: I was like, oh, my God. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Historically, both have kind of gotten lumped in as the template for Avatar. Yeah. [00:37:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:01] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:02] Speaker C: Well, so that's one influence point. And then to mention something else that you'd said, too, you know, this is Kevin Costner's first directorial effort. He gets an Oscar for his work right out of the gate, which I think. I think emboldened and doomed him at the same time. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:18] Speaker B: It's kind of where the ego as we know it today is, like, fostered. [00:37:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because within a year, he went from, like, you know, the guy everybody loved watching in field of dreams to, you know, being, you know, the best, best director Oscar winner. [00:37:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:32] Speaker C: So if you. So you think, you know, five years later, same thing or. I guess. I guess this wasn't his debut. I should take that back. This wasn't his debut, but it was sort of like his first big movie with, with Mel Gibson and Braveheart because didn't he do the man without a face? I think he directed that before Braveheart. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. [00:37:55] Speaker C: I don't know. I don't know that Braveheart was his debut. I think he did direct the man without a face. But this is, this is, again, where I'm old and my brain may not be quite as sharp as it once was. [00:38:05] Speaker A: No. [00:38:06] Speaker B: Yes. Man without a face, 1993. [00:38:08] Speaker C: Okay. [00:38:09] Speaker B: Directed by Mel Gibson. [00:38:10] Speaker C: Okay. But, but Braveheart very much is the same kind of thing. Right. It's like you have this actor that is not. [00:38:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker C: You know, not terribly well known for directorial prowess. You know, kind of coming out of nowhere and Braveheart storm the oscars, too. Yeah. [00:38:24] Speaker B: And it's a big, ambitious period drama. Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker A: And even Gibson had, like, that follow up Oscar type film that was not as big of a gap as, you know, dances with Postman. But I would even. I mean, but even then, it's just like, it is fascinating to think that, like, since Costner did it so well, like, just kind of by accident, but also just by talent and just, you know, raw determination, wanting to learn how to be a director, it is just because, again, it is watching this, looking back at the film and also watching some of the behind the scenes footage and being like, yes, I know. Costner at this point has been a working actor. Literally, like, his first bigger role is a side character in, like, big chill, which is like, you know, a few years before he does Silverado with Kasdan. And then, like, you know, of course, untouchables and then a bunch of fucking baseball movies that isn't just bull Durham, Field of dreams. And then, like, he. So he's. He's a working actor who's building his credibility. But even so, thinking about scenes like the Buffalo scene and being like, I feel like I would have a fucking heart attack just trying to figure out how we're going to shoot this, right. And just watching her talk about. Yeah, and just talk. Watching him talk it. And again, this is after decades of living that experience and now having enough time to go back and retroactively talk. So maybe he was shitting himself when they were doing that scene, but, like, oh, he was. [00:39:48] Speaker B: He's talked about that. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Good. Because, like, it just is, like, for a first time director, it is no surprise that people go from, oh, I love this guy, from field of dreams to being like, wait, this guy just shot up. Do we still like him? Do we all like him now? Well, I don't know if I like him anymore. If we all like him, do we. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Like his everything no matter what? [00:40:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Are we that on board? [00:40:10] Speaker A: And he'll really test that with his next film. But it's just. It is. Yeah, it's just with dances with wolves, it is just. It's always kind of fun having years and years, especially when, you know, Andy and I have been disconnected from in terms of, like, actually living because it's. I love hearing you talk about, like, going at eleven years old, seeing this and just, like, actually being there to, like, see in real time, just the film grow in that popularity. Because at least the downside with our situation would just be being so young in a way that, like, it's not even a fucking brag. It really is just like, going so many years hearing about these films being told, ah, it's not really worth your time. And then we now finally get to watch them and be like, now we're disconnected from all the bullshit. [00:40:55] Speaker C: Sure. [00:40:55] Speaker A: We now could just take the film as it is and be like, damn, this must have been incredible to see in theaters in certain shots, like all the prairie shots, like the landscapes, just. And even though, like, I'm not. I think the one thing we will disagree on, Nick, the two of us with you, is the narration. I was not a big fan. I was not a big fan of the narration. That felt very much, if anything felt like a studio note. That kind of felt like it could have been, but it also could have just been Costner just being like, I love journal entries. This would be fun to do it like this. [00:41:32] Speaker C: Sure. [00:41:32] Speaker A: It always, like, there's one scene. Yeah, it's the scene later in the film where I think the young Lakota, like, the little boy who gets a little bit of an arc towards the end of the film when he, like, accidentally kills some or kills someone due to survival. And he's just sitting there in silence trying to take in what he just did. He just took a life even though the guy was trying to kill him. You can definitely tell in the. Because again, showing how good of a director Costner is, all the silent acting, the moments we get in this film is phenomenal. Those are some of the best moments in this film. And then before we can really marinate and take that in, Costner's telling me about how this boy feels and it's like, okay, that's fine. It is. It is just, ah, it is such a good movie. And I think there's. There's so much. We can literally have this whole episode talk about it. I think, in all honesty, because it's just breaking it down, at least in the barest of ways. It's just, yeah, this movie fucking rules. So really good. [00:42:37] Speaker C: So one final note I'll give you on the voiceover. I mean, I think for me, like, yeah, it's cheesy, but I think the way that it ultimately becomes the undoing of the tribe for his need to document things as a vessel, I think to me, it gives a harder edge, a darker edge to that narrative aspect, you know? And it's sort of like it's sort of condemning the people who live and win long enough to write the history book to me. Yeah. So that's where I think. That's where I think the voiceover ultimately works for me. But then I'll say, I had mentioned this earlier. The voiceover is the thing that Evan brings up every time we talk about. [00:43:23] Speaker B: I was gonna mention. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Oh, really? Okay, sorry. [00:43:25] Speaker C: Sorry to steal your thunder, Andy, but this dances with wolves is the movie that Evan loathes out of these three. [00:43:33] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:33] Speaker C: I don't think he has seen. I don't think he has seen the postman or open range. [00:43:38] Speaker B: I bet he'd like open range. [00:43:40] Speaker A: I think he'd love open range. [00:43:41] Speaker C: I have mooned over open range to him many, many, many times. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Let's get a bottle of chloroform and do a good old duval. Get Evan in there. [00:43:52] Speaker C: Right. [00:43:52] Speaker A: Well, I will say, though, in Devil's advocate, the whole journal thing, I will say to a degree, does work when you realize at the very end of the film, the guy that gets the journal can't fucking read. [00:44:03] Speaker C: Yep. [00:44:03] Speaker A: So, like, they feel like. And feeling like you might be able to hear, like, see, and the guy just uses it to wipe his ass. That I will give it that. That's good, especially with the journal stuff. But go, Andy. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Well, I was just gonna say, yeah, it is kind of. I agree with Nick that, like, the voiceover or the journaling as a concept really kind of gives the movie an added dimension of the sort of foreboding of where history goes from there and the sort of condemnation of the white settlers and that sort of thing. I think for me, where it breaks down is in Costner's actual delivery of the voiceover. It feels very Harrison Ford and Blade Runner. [00:44:48] Speaker C: That's fair. [00:44:49] Speaker B: It obviously isn't the same scenario because Costner had seemingly almost complete control of this entire thing. But, yeah, I agree with you because I was listening to him deliver these kind of voiced over monologues, and I was like, this is really interesting, what he's saying. I'm really glad that these bits and pieces are here, especially because I think as structured, the movie doesn't really work very well without them. You kind of need them there. But I was just like, you know, it'd be like a shot of Costner's face staring out at the horizon. It's like I wish he was just doing something instead of staring while we hear his voice again. [00:45:29] Speaker A: Everyone in this, when they have that moment of pondering, almost having, like, a Russell Crowe and gladiator moment where they're, like, almost watching a butterfly or something, it's just like, ah, everyone knows what they're doing. Even the child does that really well. So, yeah, I mean, again, with dances with wolves, it's hard not to from this point forward, just be a bit of a defender, at least. At least for me, where it's like not even being like, you don't have to. Five out of five love this film. But, like, Avatar with blue people is a little bit rude. There are desert wolves with blue people is a little bit rude. There's more to it than just that. All right. But after dances with wolves, I mean, incredibly, when it comes to a situation like that, where you start off your directing career with an Oscar winning film, where you are such a good director your first time, that the Academy goes, you know what? You deserve the Oscar, pal. There's no way, in some way, shape or form, that that good record is going to keep being perfect all the way through. [00:46:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:46:30] Speaker A: Which leads us to, if we're absolute power. Yes. Sprint right to what I would say out of all three of these films, it is in a career what I bet has more than one vanity project under his belt. Oh. But in terms of his, you know, first directing trio, the one that is clearly the biggest vanity project of them all, the one that I would imagine flopped, the worst is, of course, our next film in this trilogy, 1990 Seven's the Postman, a film that asks, does Kevin Costner have great semen? The answer is yes. Yes, he does. And don't worry. Don't worry, don't worry. Tom Petty is there to also make sure, you know that Costner is cool. [00:47:16] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, because the nineties in general for Costner were kind of a lot of highs and lows. I mean, he was sort of all over the place in between dances and postman, because by the time he gets to postman, he'd already done Waterworld, which is, you know, fairly divisive, to say the least. [00:47:38] Speaker A: You imagine if Dennis Hopper was the, like, the lead antagonist in the Postman. I'm getting. William Sadler is not bad in this movie. I think he's fine. [00:47:48] Speaker C: Will. Pat. Will Patton. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:51] Speaker B: He made that mistake. Because I made that mistake while we were watching. [00:47:54] Speaker C: It's all good. [00:47:55] Speaker A: That's good. [00:47:55] Speaker B: I. Will Sadler burned that into his brain. [00:47:57] Speaker A: He's the president in iron man three. Right. Is that who that. [00:48:00] Speaker C: Yeah. William Sadler is Sadler. [00:48:02] Speaker A: He's doing naked yoga and die hard two. That's. That's one. That's the thing. Yes. [00:48:06] Speaker C: That's also him. [00:48:07] Speaker A: But honestly, if Will. I mean, Will Patton is. I think he's so good. And I would say if you had Dennis Hopper in that role, maybe half a star, just because Dennis Hopper wouldn't give half a shit. But that. I mean, then again, he also did Waterworld. Why would you want to do another one of these with Costner? But, yeah, going right into the fact that out of these three films, this is based off of a novel that was pre existing, was it also called the Postman? Was it the same title? [00:48:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the postman. Yeah. [00:48:39] Speaker A: And. And strangely enough, again, like Andy said, his career has led at this point. He, a few years after dances with wolves, basically fights to get a Wyatt Earp film out around the same time. Kurt Russell and company are doing Tombstone there later. But still, nevertheless, he's able to release his three and a half hour Wyatt Earp film in 94. He also did Robin Hood, Prince of thieves with Morgan Freeman and the late, great Alan Rickman. He did tin cup in 96, Waterworld, 95. Again, the thing that's crazy about Costner is just, like, jumping to postman. We. There's no pretending that he was just sleeping until 97. [00:49:22] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah, yeah. You've also got JFK and the bodyguard in there. I mean. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, yeah, the bodyguard. Which, again, yeah, yeah. Huge. And it is. It's clear that, like, Costner, while he has a love for directing, is clearly not his first love, at least in the nineties. And if it's gonna be his first love, it's got to be a project that really grabs on to him, one that really makes him feel like he has a great fluid of some kind. Lo and behold, he found that with the postman, a post apocalyptic epic. [00:49:55] Speaker B: I can't believe Waterworld wasn't the film that taught him. He had the fluids again. [00:50:00] Speaker C: Right? [00:50:00] Speaker A: Does it. Yeah, it just. It's. [00:50:02] Speaker C: Well, that was. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Maybe it did teach him. He had the fluid. [00:50:05] Speaker C: He does distill his urine into perfectly potable water. [00:50:10] Speaker B: There we go. [00:50:11] Speaker C: Waterworld. [00:50:12] Speaker B: You have good urine, John. [00:50:14] Speaker C: Waterworld. Yeah, good urine and now good semen. [00:50:17] Speaker B: Yep. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Yes. John Postman is, of course, the stronger of the two Costner Johns, but it is. Yeah, it is. My lord. I just had a thought. And now the great semen joke is really taken over, because, again, it is just. It is fascinating to think that a man who. Because, again, with dances with wolves, I wouldn't even. It is a western in a sense, but I would also postman say that, like. Or I was saying dance. [00:50:45] Speaker B: Oh, dances. Yeah. [00:50:46] Speaker A: Where it's like, you know, it's not the. It's not the classic type. It takes enough from classic, but it's able to reinvigorate it in the modern age of that time that in my head, I would think, you know, like, I don't know, you could. I mean, you lived through this, Nick. Like, in terms of, like, you would think, like, his big vanity project would just be a big ass western that, you know, not even Wyatt Earp. Just like, I'm gonna do something original, almost like an american saga. But, you know, that's not finished yet. But it is. Trying to. It's fascinating to get to. What I would be is like putting all of his chips in from his dances with wolves cred. Being a post apocalyptic America film. [00:51:25] Speaker C: Sure. [00:51:26] Speaker A: That is just. It is the type of film that I feel like anytime I'm going from this point forward to explain the plot just as basic as possible. See, people go, well, that sounds absolutely insane, but it could be fun if done right. And in my head, the postman is that sentence without the last part. [00:51:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:49] Speaker A: I'm not a fan of this, so I'm just gonna say that outright. [00:51:53] Speaker C: So I remember. So this. This came out at the. The year end of 97, right? So you had. [00:52:00] Speaker B: It was Christmas. It was Christmas. [00:52:01] Speaker C: Yeah. It was a Christmas release. [00:52:02] Speaker A: This was a Christmas release. [00:52:04] Speaker B: Came out on Christmas day. [00:52:05] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:06] Speaker A: Oh, merry Christmas. [00:52:08] Speaker C: No mail delivered on Christmas day. But by God, Warner Brothers will give. [00:52:11] Speaker B: You, by God, the postman. [00:52:13] Speaker A: God. It was a missed opportunity not to send, like, fake important letters to every house in America. [00:52:19] Speaker C: Right? [00:52:20] Speaker A: Go see the postman. [00:52:22] Speaker C: After you unwrap your gifts, unwrap the weirdest movie of the holiday season. So. Okay, so 97, you've got la confidential has come out. Huge critical success. Pretty solid commercial success. Good will Hunting has come out. Huge underdog story. Titanic is coming out at the same time. Now, Titanic at the time, which is really interesting to think about this. Now, some people thought Titanic was damaged goods because it was originally supposed to open in the summer of 97, and it was pushed back to Christmas to finish the visual effects. And people were like, yeah, James Cameron might be over his skis on this one. This movie might not be that good. And now, of course, it's like, okay. [00:53:08] Speaker A: Sure, right, guys, I had to spend three months to make sure that guy hits the propeller really nicely. [00:53:16] Speaker C: So maybe, you know, so maybe there's a little bit of that with Costner, too, thinking, you know, maybe he thought there was a little bit of blood in the water. This big hyped up Titanic movie was not going to do what it did. And, you know, the postman was pretty much out of theaters, you know, two weeks into January. Yeah. This movie was a monumental flop, critically and commercially and whatever. Whatever laughingstock people thought he was after Waterworld, which I have to say, you mentioned Tin cup. Tin cup is great. Tin cup has, for me, one of the greatest climaxes of any movie I've ever seen. I love Tin cup so much. [00:53:57] Speaker B: I'll put it on the list. [00:53:59] Speaker C: So, you know, but Tin cup was a huge movie for him between Waterworld and this. So, I mean, Waterworld did not sink him. Pun intended. But, you know, you know, he came back with this. This was just, you know, with within, you know, a couple years of this even. You know, he's. He's still back, though. He's got, you know, for love of the game. Did okay. You know, message in a bottle was a couple years after that. That did okay. You know, so he wasn't. He wasn't dead. It was just weird that, like you said, he pushed all his chips in on what is kind of like the country music television version of Mad Max. Like, that's kind of what this movie is, I think. [00:54:41] Speaker A: I think. [00:54:41] Speaker B: What was the. There's like a letterbox review, like, mildly upset Max or something. [00:54:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that was all the top comments. It's just. It is just like, going into it. Like, I was looking at the cast and being like, holy shit. Like, you know, Patton Rubisi, fucking Tom Petty, of all people, is gonna show. [00:54:59] Speaker C: Up playing maybe himself. [00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, presumably. [00:55:05] Speaker A: And it just is, you know, hearing post apocalyptic Costner and then. Yeah, on the high of dances with wolves with both of us, like, we went into this being like, well, it's also because we. It was a long day for us because we had seen the bike riders earlier that. [00:55:22] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:55:23] Speaker A: And you were like, it's like, this might not be the best double feature, but watch the postman. And it's like, yeah, sure, let's do it. And, man, I was fucking drained by hour two of that movie. If you had another hour to go, it's. So, again, I think we've talked about it a lot on the pod in just, like, different scenarios. But, like, I am not against a three hour film if it's, you know, it feels like it warrants the pacing. And especially. I mean, again, one of my favorite films from two, three years ago was drive my car, likewise. And that film is a three hour film where, in all honesty, the prologue is 45 minutes. Yeah, basically. [00:56:03] Speaker B: And it's like the entire movie is people just talking. [00:56:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:07] Speaker C: In different languages. Many different languages. [00:56:09] Speaker B: In different languages. [00:56:10] Speaker A: And it's. I mean, even so, it's like. It's also, like, in a bigger blockbuster sense. There's also fucking endgame. And there's also, like, something with, like, it. Chapter two, where I feel like that's a film that, like, sold people on 245. And to be honest, that film has a lot more other issues than, I think, the runtime, I think. So it's like, you can sell that well. And then there's films like the postman where it's like, this is why people hate three hour films. Yeah, this is. Is exhausting just to get to him becoming the postman. [00:56:42] Speaker C: So I was 18 when this movie came out. I did not see this in theaters. I did see. [00:56:50] Speaker B: You didn't wake up Christmas morning and go check it out. [00:56:53] Speaker C: But I do have kind of an amusing anecdote for my attempts to see Titanic, which it took forever. I'm telling you, it was hard to get a ticket to that movie. Oh. So I tried several times. Sold out, you know, first few times we went, and I had. So this was after my first semester in college. And so one of my high school friends was. She, like, called a bunch of us up, and she said, hey, I can get advance tickets. Do you want me to go get advance tickets? This is how she said it. And we were all like, yes, yes. Go get tickets. We get to the movie theater. This is no bullshit, okay? We get to the movie theater. She goes to pick up the tickets. She had gotten us advance tickets to for richer or poorer, which is another Christmas movie with Tim Allen and Kirstie Alley on the run in amish country. Oh, my God. [00:57:44] Speaker A: And we were like, what a Christmas. [00:57:46] Speaker C: We were like, this is the head to head. All of us. We were like, what did you do? Why did you do this? What the fuck? We all thought you were getting titanic tickets. She goes, I thought you wanted to see something fun. We're like, no, we want to see the movie that we've been trying to see for. For two weeks. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:58:02] Speaker A: Again, a simpler time to have a friend. Just be like, you don't want to go see the new hit Tim Allen curse the Alley film. [00:58:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:58:09] Speaker A: A simpler time. [00:58:10] Speaker C: Yes. So if you ever need a guest to talk about, for richer or poorer, I can offer some perspective. [00:58:18] Speaker A: But this shows, like, 87 Tim Allen trilogy. [00:58:22] Speaker C: Yeah. So this shows you that, like, there was a lot of crap out at Christmas time around Titanic, you know, kind of surrounding it, I think you mean. [00:58:31] Speaker B: There was a lot of crap out around postman. [00:58:34] Speaker C: Well, yeah, so. So I will say. I mean, okay, so I watched this on VHS. After it. After it hit VHS, I watched this. I did not like it at all then. Okay. [00:58:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:44] Speaker C: I had not seen it in, you know, 26 years almost, because I'd only seen it the one time. [00:58:52] Speaker B: Oh. Until watch. [00:58:53] Speaker C: Until rewatching it for this. So to Logan's point, if this movie had been 2 hours, I think it would have been fine. That last hour is so poorly paced, inert in terms of what it's trying to say. [00:59:13] Speaker B: Yeah. It just. Oh, my God. Feels like it kind of completely, like, side quests from the emotional ambitions of the first 2 hours. [00:59:24] Speaker C: Yeah. But, you know, I mean, I did appreciate a lot more about the first 2 hours of it this time. I mean, I think that, you know, to me, it's like Costner slowly pouring the entirety of a sugar shaker into a very tall cup of coffee for like 3 hours. Right. So I see here what he's trying to do is, okay, all of his movies, all of the movies he's directed, including Horizon, although we're not talking fully about that today, all the movies he's directed are about the destruction of America. Okay. [00:59:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:59] Speaker C: This is the only one where it's like the literal destruction of America, at least as an institution. Right. [01:00:04] Speaker B: The others are. Yeah. The death of a certain phase of american history. Yeah, sure. [01:00:08] Speaker C: So to me, it was like he. What interested him about this and what I think works about the first couple hours is this is an apocalypse movie that's less about the violent adaptation to survive and more about the stuff that you would miss. Like the everyday stuff you would miss. Yeah. So it's a little more, you know, I don't want to say positive, but it's not as pessimistic as other apocalypse movies. And so, no, that's an interesting approach that, you know, in the wake of God knows how many apocalypse movies that are the same slog over and over again, I thought it was kind of interesting to kind of look at it from that perspective. Now. Does it entirely work? No, but it's a big, goofy swing that I can appreciate. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Conceptually, I kind of love the conceit of it that it's. Yeah, post apocalypse. But what if this post apocalyptic fable just kind of teaches us to appreciate the fact that we're not in an apocalypse? You know, like, it teaches us, oh, yeah, we would probably miss society and want to go back to that and, you know, seek community and that sort of thing. I love that in concept, but execution's not. [01:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:19] Speaker B: In concept being the operative function, I. [01:01:22] Speaker C: Think it would be good. So we didn't really do this with dances with wolves. But if you guys want to give sort of, like, a brief plot summary of this, because, like, nobody remembers this movie. That's not a Kev head like myself. [01:01:33] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:01:34] Speaker C: You know, I think it will also give people a chuckle listening to think this is what this movie is about. [01:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:01:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it's basically. I don't know if they ever actually say the. Like, they describe the inciting events that lead to this kind of apocalyptic state, but it's clear there was some kind of war conflict that resulted in, like, massive deaths and radiation and destruction of infrastructure. [01:02:00] Speaker A: I think it's d. All of the above. Yeah, yeah. [01:02:03] Speaker B: It's all of it. [01:02:03] Speaker C: And poisoning. Poisoning the semen. That's also, to a crucial point, the. [01:02:08] Speaker B: Mass infection with bad mumps. [01:02:10] Speaker C: Right. [01:02:11] Speaker B: But anyway, yeah, we're set in this america, I think, specifically like, the Pacific Northwest for the most part, after society has deteriorated. And we're following this guy who's wandering between settlements, putting on, like, plays, little shows, little bits of entertainment. He does Shakespeare and that sort of thing. And then kind of as a way to sort of, like, I guess, con himself room and board in places, sort of takes up this mantle, pretending to be a delivery man, a us postman for the supposed kind of reconstructed United States government, which he entirely made up and is now telling people is a thing. [01:03:02] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [01:03:02] Speaker A: In between that, because, again, he also. [01:03:05] Speaker B: Becomes a prisoner of war. [01:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:06] Speaker A: He becomes a prisoner of, like, a fascist manosphere regime. [01:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:12] Speaker A: That is. I mean, it's. Again, I agree with Nick. If this was a two hour film, I feel like you would condense the in between of. He does Shakespeare for little towns to. He really just wants to sleep in bigger places. So he pretends to be postman. [01:03:27] Speaker C: Right. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Like, once you. Once it's 3 hours. That's why such a big chunk, at least in the beginning part of the film, is the Patton regime, which leads to us getting two side characters with Costner that you think, oh, he's gonna go on the road with them. [01:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:42] Speaker A: And then ultimately, they both. [01:03:44] Speaker B: They both die as soon as they. [01:03:46] Speaker A: Get out of the prison camp. Yeah. The fact, again, it's a bit of a red flag when the premise finally hits at minute 45. [01:03:54] Speaker C: Yes. [01:03:54] Speaker A: Like, in that kind of. It's like, oh, okay. [01:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Finally says, I'm the post man. Yeah. [01:04:00] Speaker A: But he's like, I'm the postman. He says, like, just, you know, casually. [01:04:04] Speaker C: Right. [01:04:05] Speaker A: And then you get the real side characters when it comes to. Is it, uh. Is it Mercury Ford Lincoln? [01:04:10] Speaker C: Ford Lincoln Mercury Ford Lincoln Ford Lincoln mercury, which is Larryn's tate. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Strange, strange detail that, like, his name, his character's name is Ford Lincoln Mercury. But, like, the sign over the building he lives in where he got his name is actually like, lincoln Ford Mercury. [01:04:26] Speaker A: Yes. [01:04:27] Speaker B: Why. Why'd you swap it around? [01:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And then from the point that point forward, the film becomes him being the postman for a good chunk of time. And again, in a normal film situation, you would think, that's it. Maybe they'll. There's probably going to be a liar revealed maybe at hour two, maybe hour two and a half. And then you can get, like, a climax in the 30 minutes. No. At a certain point, while he's postmanning, he runs into Patton. They get into a little skirmish. He runs away with a woman who he met at the first settlement, who basically sleeps with him because he has great semen. I am not saying that in a silly way. She says it like that in front of her husband. No doubt her husband was also okay with her. [01:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah. In context, it's because. Yeah. So many people were affected by this epidemic called, that they call the bad mumps. That makes, you know, procreation not feasible or maybe not desirable. [01:05:33] Speaker A: But what's so funny about this costume is clean. [01:05:36] Speaker B: Clean. [01:05:36] Speaker A: And the funny thing about the postman is that, again, these ideas by themselves are like, yeah, like, I can. You can kind of build this in a way that, like, maybe this could work. But the funny thing, too, is one, it is not even two decades. If we. If we say that the pen, like, the epidemic happened in the late nineties, we're in, like, 2013. [01:05:58] Speaker C: Yes. [01:05:59] Speaker A: So it's fascinating to have, like, all these establishments be like, oh, we've never read a book before. We don't know what Shakespeare is. Shakespeare. Hold on, guys. This isn't fallout. It's not two later. [01:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah. All these centuries long institutions of civilization are just gone in 20 years. [01:06:18] Speaker A: But when it comes to the love interest of this film, funnily enough, the woman who cucks her husband because Costner has great semen, her husband just so happens, all to make it easier for the film, dies. So she becomes the love interest. What's funny about. The whole thing about he has great semen is one. It's entirely by just looking at him being like, yeah, the dude's got to have some good stuff. Like, right? And then, like, you see her husband. Her husband looks just. He looks fine. Like, it's all like, if we're going entirely on visuals is what the film is giving you. It's just funny to be like, yeah, my husband. And I think you'd be great because of your semen. Look at my husband. And it's not like they do him in a cartoonishly, like he has bumps or he's lost an eye or something. [01:07:06] Speaker C: He's not a hunchback or something. [01:07:07] Speaker A: He's just a dude. It's just funny to be like this. If this wasn't meant to be, like, an ego trip for Costner, that's just a fascinating thing to think about. [01:07:17] Speaker B: Well, and that is kind of that. The whole semen bit. And him, you know, cucking the woman's husband, so to speak, is kind of a microcosm of, I think what ultimately feels so false about this movie is like that. It feels like Costner sort of giving himself all of the pats on the back, all of the opportunities to be the hero, all of the opportunities to, whatever, get the girl, lay some pipe, save America kind of everything. And it maybe wouldn't have felt that way had he cast somebody else in the lead or if he let somebody else direct. But the fact that it's all him all the time. [01:08:02] Speaker C: Or sing the end credits song as a duet with Amy Grant. Yeah. [01:08:07] Speaker A: Oh, God. Again, they don't make them like this anymore, and there's a reason why. But it's. I mean, again, this will tie back around. But, like, I. Have either of you watched Game of Thrones in full? [01:08:20] Speaker B: Almost all of it. I've kind of missed some episodes here and there. [01:08:23] Speaker C: I've seen. I've seen the original run. I have not seen House of the Dragon. [01:08:26] Speaker A: House of the dragon. [01:08:27] Speaker B: I have not seen. [01:08:27] Speaker A: Okay, well, there's. There's a monologue. Again, spoiler alert, we're spoiling all three of these films, so just keep that in mind. In my opinion, open range is the one you should watch the most. Dazes with wolves. You should definitely check out pretend postman doesn't exist. But there's that scene at the very end of Game of Thrones, and I won't say which character says it because Andy hasn't gotten that point, but basically. [01:08:49] Speaker B: You have someone who's like, oh, I've seen the end. [01:08:51] Speaker A: Okay. God, don't we love stories? Don't we love an underdog? Don't we love this? The rise and fall, yada, yada. And it's like the postman at its core feels like 3 hours of just, God, don't you just love this little thing? Don't you just love this little thing? And it's like, in concept, yes. I think they're very nice. Is there anything else you want to add to that little concept? And then the film goes, oh, there's a shootout. And then it just never comes back to that. And it does things where it's like, again, you would think the rest of the film is just him pretending to be postman. Then he'll get caught. No, what happens is he gets put, he goes into hibernation with semen woman, and basically they have a meet cute, like, oh, my God, you lied. Like, kind of situation. Like just a rom.com situation in a cabin for like a winter. And then when they get out, Costner finds out that he has inspired a bunch of children to build the new United States postal service, which is, again, a wild thing that I just said out loud that actually happens in this movie. [01:10:01] Speaker C: Postal posse, if you will. [01:10:03] Speaker A: Postal posse. [01:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. The kind of whole liar revealed thing that is being built up to never really happens because by the time it would happen in the plot. Yeah. If he finds out, oh, I've actually created this whole thing that's actually kind of a net good for society. [01:10:21] Speaker C: Right. [01:10:22] Speaker A: Actually, the lie revealed happens at a point where a bunch of chilled, like, child postmen have died. [01:10:28] Speaker C: Right. [01:10:29] Speaker A: Like a bunch of, by that point, it's like a bunch of post children who are not like five or six, but, like, still are, like, way too young for, like, these scenes. We're just like getting shot off of horses and stuff where it's like that point. That's when Costner's character goes, I think this has gone on for too long. It's like, man, I gotta tell you, we're like 2 hours in. You better just buckle down. You just need to get through this. [01:10:51] Speaker C: Like, like, to that point, I guess what I, what I find also interesting about this movie is that, like, the guy doesn't really have an impetus to being the hero. Like, he. No, he doesn't. No, you know, he doesn't. He's not an inherent do gooder. I mean, you know, he's, as you said, he's just sort of scamming his way from settlement to settlement, you know, to get a place to sleep with his ass named Bill. His animal ass, not his own ass, as you've seen in other Kevin Costner movies. But so, but not enough in his case, apparently. [01:11:31] Speaker A: Apparently he wants to see what's more. [01:11:33] Speaker C: This is, I would say this is probably the dorkiest person that Kevin Costner has ever played in a movie. [01:11:39] Speaker A: Oh, he tries so hard to be funny. Like, there's so many quips he's given to himself. [01:11:44] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's just, he's just a dork. Like, even when he. When he's confronting Will Patton's character, I mean, he's just kind of a doofus. [01:11:52] Speaker A: Like he's, you know, like, yeah, like Costner. You can look at Costner, I think, and just be like, that man in his prime could play a himbo in his slate easily. But the way he plays it in the Postman is just like a kooky side character almost as the lead in some of the line ratings. And it's like, why? [01:12:10] Speaker B: Well, and it feels entirely deliberate that the character is well characterized that way. Like, that feels deliberate in his performance. It feels deliberate in the way he's written. But it does feel odd to make that character, that role in the story be that way and then still kind of get all these kind of, I guess you'd call them, like, self insert moments. [01:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:12:35] Speaker B: Weird. Weird. I mean, dichotomy with that character. [01:12:38] Speaker A: Again, I will give the film credit. And this is the reason why it's more of a one out of five than a zero out of five is like, there's enough little moments of, like, I personally love the moment when John Postman. I can't remember what his name. [01:12:52] Speaker C: I don't think they give him a name, do they? [01:12:53] Speaker A: I don't. They probably don't. [01:12:55] Speaker B: He's just the postman. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah, but when Costner finds out that his postal posse has created itself and that Lincoln has basically done what he has done without knowing that he's done the postman situation where it's like, yeah, I just lied and said the postman was talking to me. I mean, is that okay? You've. Would that be wrong? And then you just have this moment in Coster's face where it's like, holy fuck. All right, okay. All right. I guess I got to keep with this. Like, again, this is a film that has a lot of fun ideas that I think if condensed down a little trim here and there. And, like, there are little moments where it's like the. When he's stuck in Patton's, like, manosphere, like, fascist regime. When, like, the movie they watch every night. [01:13:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:13:41] Speaker C: Sound of music. [01:13:42] Speaker B: Sound of music. [01:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah. The fact that, like, with the one night they don't play it is like a bunch of dudes just screaming at a. [01:13:47] Speaker C: Screaming. Yeah. [01:13:48] Speaker B: What do they try to put on? Is it. [01:13:49] Speaker C: It's universal soldier. [01:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:52] Speaker C: Which I had totally forgotten. And I was like, oh, my God. [01:13:58] Speaker B: I had just watched that movie, first time, like a week prior. [01:14:01] Speaker C: It's like, what a weird reference. Like, I mean, but I love. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just funny that cost in Costner's head. He's like, listen, the films that are gonna stay in the test of time in the post apocalypse are films like Sound of Music, another three hour film. [01:14:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. [01:14:16] Speaker A: And I love that. Yeah. And I think it's like seeing that, moments like that where it's like, yeah, this is a film where it's not. You can clearly tell where Costner is coming from. And I think in another world, there's. This has to at least be a three out of five, I would hope, in another universe, but at least in our life, in our reality, this is a flop for a reason. This is, it is. It is a passion project, vanity project that has, you know, a lot that could go for it, but ultimately, towards the end of it, I will be completely honest with you, Andy, and you could be honest with me, too, if you're in the same boat. I don't know if I remember a lot of anything past 30 minutes, like, at the end of this film, from, like, two and a half to 3 hours. [01:14:59] Speaker B: Oh, the last 30 minutes. [01:15:00] Speaker A: No, I think. I think when the tram is going down from the dam. [01:15:05] Speaker B: You mean like when he's in the. Like the cable car? [01:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah, the cable car. I think my brain. My brain just short circuited. [01:15:12] Speaker C: Goofy. [01:15:12] Speaker A: I think it was tv. It was tv static until I snapped. And they're in the Patton fight. [01:15:18] Speaker C: They're rolling around on the ground. [01:15:19] Speaker A: And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. And then Patton has his. His little buddy on the side where it's like, we cut his dick off. [01:15:26] Speaker C: Right? The last man to challenge will Patton was castrated. Yeah, they make a big point of that. [01:15:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:15:33] Speaker A: It's. It's a film that, like, it drops. There's. There's some slurs that are dropped at the beginning of the film that are just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are we doing here? What's. What's. Where we go with this? And then again, almost similar to dances with wolves, once we get out of the Patton regime and we finally get to the premise, it's like, okay, maybe this will cook. Maybe I'm finally seeing what it's trying to do. The only difference between dance and wolves than this is that I think this is a piece of shit in the end of the day, but it tries at, like, at least it's. I don't think there's any really anything really lazy about this film. Like, genuinely, in terms of a directing standpoint, I don't think Costner, especially with the visuals. [01:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, he's not phoning it in. [01:16:14] Speaker A: No. Like, which, again, I think is great. I think genuinely, even though this is a. This is a shiny gold turd in a way. Like, it's great that he is clearly invested, like, all the way through. And I think it shows in a lot of great moments in terms of the landscaping shots or just the wide stuff. And just, you know, Costner clearly is a. They don't make them like this any, you know, these days. But in a way that, like, puts his money where the mouth is. Where your mouth is. And I'll give him credit for that. But, like, I don't think I ever want to watch this movie again in my lifetime. I do want to watch Wyatt Earp, though, so it's not like I'm not going to watch, like, another three, three and a half hour Costner film. I just. [01:16:56] Speaker C: Wyatt Earp is actually probably the biggest Costner blind spot that I have. [01:17:01] Speaker A: Okay. [01:17:02] Speaker C: I've actually not seen Wyatt Earp, at. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Least according to rotten tomatoes. Cause I just was kind of vaguely looking because I've. We talked about right before we recorded. I. I'm a big tombstone guy. So, like, I was curious about which one was a bigger hit. And at least with critics, it seemed like people like Tombstone a little bit more. [01:17:20] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [01:17:20] Speaker A: Like a. Yeah, that was a production nightmare. It's also a very different type of film. That film is basically the romanticized western. [01:17:28] Speaker C: Right. It's very traditional. Yeah. [01:17:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's just Kurt Russell and then Val Kilmer putting way too much. Way too much into that version of Doc Holliday. And that's why I love. That's why I love Kilmer. And then, like, Wyatt Earp. But, like, the Costner's is like three and a half hours long and is a goddamn epic. Yeah. And again, I will watch it at some point. Again, this is not a film that puts me off of Costner. In fact, I think, at least in a positive sense. I don't know if you feel like this, Andy, about this too, Andy. But, like, the postman made me just want to find more of the. The good Costner. Honestly, it made me excited to kind of maybe wanted to watch waterworld, basically, just to see how much worse, if it is, which. [01:18:09] Speaker C: There's no way it's water better than this water. [01:18:13] Speaker A: Okay. That's all I need to know. But I need to. It's. I just need to. Someday I need to find out. [01:18:17] Speaker B: Well, I think. I mean, obviously speaking with, you know, ample ignorance around me given I have plenty of Kevin Costner blind spots. But I kind of feel like. [01:18:30] Speaker A: Me too. [01:18:30] Speaker B: The postman is like the tangible distillation of all the things that people like to bag on Costner for in the rest of his career in dances with wolves, in his later in Yellowstone with horizon and all that. Just the kind of criticizing him for being sort of egotistical and stuck in his ways, you know, kind of sometimes meaninglessly combative about, you know, certain topics that kind of feels like it's all happening in this movie and where you could say maybe it's happening in other movies. It kind of feels like in, say, dances with wolves, for example, it is a context that's being applied after the fact. Whereas with the postman, it feels like, yeah, this movie actually has all of these problems and all these were actually happening in his conceit of the film. [01:19:29] Speaker A: Because, like, what we talked about, vanity. [01:19:31] Speaker B: Project, it's over long. It's indulgent. It's not saying anything specially meaningful. [01:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah. It's not subtext here. It's just text. [01:19:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because at least when we talked about for the love of the game a few years back we weren't really big fans on it. [01:19:45] Speaker B: But get that extra the out of there, Logan. It's for love of the game. [01:19:49] Speaker A: Is it? Yeah. We really berenstein Berenstain situation on that. But yeah, I mean, I. For that film at least, it is like, that is a film where it's like, Costner, I don't know why you're going so hard if it's just because of baseball. That's fascinating. I think it is like. I mean, it is. It really is like. Again, the fact that, like, the one story he'll tell about this movie is not the actual plot. It's not the actual chemistry. And it is about like, this is how I got Yankee Stadium for this film. As if he directed it when he didn't. And it's like this, okay? That's what he remembers. Well, as with the postman, it's like, well, at least he'll go down with the ship if it's gonna go down like it's. It really is just gonna like, hey, I'll give him this. He swung, he fucking didn't hit really anything. But he really committed to all those tries. [01:20:38] Speaker B: It's my understanding to this day, he's still like, I think that was a pretty good movie. I don't know. I don't know what happened. [01:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's funny. [01:20:46] Speaker A: Just be, like, wiping his hands and looking around. [01:20:49] Speaker B: I don't know why people didn't like it. [01:20:51] Speaker A: Looking around a room of mirrors going like, oh, why did this not work? [01:20:55] Speaker C: I will say I did. I mean, I did enjoy it more this time. I mean, or at least I maybe appreciated more of what he was trying to do. Right. Because, you know, watching something when you're 44 versus when you're 18 is a completely different perspective. So I did enjoy it more. And to your point about the ego, Andy, what I think is really interesting here is that, like, it absolutely is text, because this is a character in the movie who changes Shakespeare lines and Beatles lyrics to suit his goals. Like. Yeah, so, like, think of that as, like, this is Costner playing a guy who is, like, changing Shakespeare and the Beatles. [01:21:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:39] Speaker C: For what he thinks is a better spin on how to say something. And so I think that's. [01:21:44] Speaker B: That's his character. His character is also an actor who becomes the ultimate messenger for society. [01:21:52] Speaker C: Right, right. [01:21:54] Speaker A: An actor who lies so well that he rebuilds the United States in some way, shape or form in people's minds. [01:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:01] Speaker A: So, like, that is. Oh, gosh, that just seems like there's a good version of an Ethan Hawke film version of that. Like, something like that. [01:22:11] Speaker C: I will say that one thing, and this is maybe kind of a segue into the final of the three if you want it to be, is. I will say, I do think there's a little, like, tickle of a theme here that he would explore more effectively in open range, which I think going back to the postal posse. [01:22:32] Speaker A: Right. [01:22:32] Speaker C: Like, he realizes, like, all these people have taken up the mission in his absence. There is sort of that notion. It's like the responsibility you take for drawing somebody into, like, your scheme, your way of life. And I think that that is a key element of what I love about open range. [01:22:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:55] Speaker C: Which was his and third directorial work. [01:23:00] Speaker A: Thank you. I forgot to say ten comedy points to Nick for that Waterworld joke he made, like, 20 minutes ago. [01:23:08] Speaker C: Sunken. [01:23:08] Speaker A: I. Yeah, he was sunken. I just forgot. Put that out. But I. Yeah, going into open range, this was gotta have. [01:23:16] Speaker C: You gotta have dad jokes in a Kevin Costner podcast, right? [01:23:18] Speaker A: Oh, you gotta. You gotta. Absolutely. [01:23:21] Speaker B: But especially one that involves the postman. [01:23:24] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. But, yeah, you would think it makes. No, it makes complete sense that after the postman, basically, I believe, makes, what, 18 million on an $80 million budget, something like that. For the long. For at least a good five years. He's not really doing anything directing wise. [01:23:45] Speaker C: Nope. [01:23:45] Speaker A: He is just working on other acting projects. He is focusing on other things at the moment, clearly for love of the game, just to make sure I say that correctly. But recently in talking about Horizon, he said that when he was thinking about what he wanted his next project to be with directing, it was a version of Horizon that ultimately kind of became a more condensed film, which we now see in 2000. Three's open range, a film that, I can be completely honest, Andy watched this way before I did. I was, I literally, I know we always record live, but, um, I literally watched this yesterday and it was gonna, like, it was just. Life had gotten away from me and I was like, I gotta find the time. I gotta commit to this. Watching open range, finally, I have to say, holy shit. Of all the films that, like, this year, I have taken a long time. Like, there have been a few films this year where it's like, you know what? There's no reason. Like, I'm just, I've been wanting to watch this film for a while. I'm gonna watch it and then I watch it and go, holy fuck, this is like my new obsession. Like, I'm gonna tell people to watch this and there's no reason to watch it in terms of, like, oh, because there's a new release? No, fuck that. This movie just fucking rips. Open range is so fucking good. It's incredible. It's incredible from top to bottom. And it's, again, I think one thing that we kind of been talking about just here and there with the last two films, blessing and the curse of with Costner is the confidence or the kind of the, like, basically the bravado that is, can be, you know, seen as confidence by people from the outside. And then with open range, I think it's just pure confidence and experience in years in the industry coming together for a film that I would never want to follow up because this movie just feels near perfect in my eyes. [01:25:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, if the postman is kind of the exemplar of arrogance, then I think open range is like, I can't remember what it's called. Is it the Dunning Kruger effect? Where it's the postman is where you think you know everything and you actually know nothing. And the more you know, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know, and you become more confident in the fact that you don't know a lot. And open range feels like actual confidence. Like he actually knows what he's doing. And doesn't have to rely on like, self mythologizing. It's just like, let's just make a good fucking genre movie that talks about all the things I like talking about in movies. [01:26:25] Speaker A: And again, like to show just how different in a way that this film is compared to dances and Postman is the fact that this is 2 hours and 15 minutes. It is the most straightforward of all three of these films. [01:26:40] Speaker B: Yes, straight genre flick. [01:26:42] Speaker A: Two cowboys get fucked over by Dumbledore. Michael Gambon plays a rancher who basically built this small town. He's a. He's irish, correct? [01:26:52] Speaker C: Yes. [01:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:53] Speaker A: Like he's an irish rancher who basically hates free grazers. People who work on the open range, hint the title and basically to get them away from his town basically fucks with Kevin Costner and Robert Duvall, which is something you really should never do. And then because of that, it is a revenge story. Basically trying to, I mean, just talk about fucking everything about that erade, but at the same time make it such a very human, very emotional story about two men who have just lived long lives in various different degrees. And is also like, I think out of the three of these films, it's like the first time. Because again, Costner, is he like in his early to mid forties when he does Postman? Or is he. Because I'm trying to think of. Because he's in his seventies now. [01:27:44] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he was born, he'd be in his forties when he did 1955. So he was 442 when he did postman. Yeah. [01:27:51] Speaker A: Okay, so he's nearly pushing 50. [01:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:54] Speaker A: And it just, it's fascinating to think that, like, with Postman, when it comes to, like, the idea of like, inspiring the next generation, it doesn't seem in a way where it's like, oh, I'm the old guard of this compared to open range, where it's like not only does he feel like the old man to a degree to like Diego Luna or Mos rest in Power Kingdom, it's also the fact that, like, he is like almost the next, like the next step of like, being old in this profession is his boss, boss Spearman with Duvall just having two different, like, outlooks in life at two different points. [01:28:32] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, I think a key component of open range is the fact that Costner kind of steps back and lets somebody else sort of take the lead of his movie. Yeah, I mean, he directs it, obviously. But like, really this. I mean, in terms of characters, this is Duvall's movie in terms of performances as well, he gets the kind of the flashier lines, the more hard hitting lines, and kind of a lot of the movie's key beats are framed around his reactions to things. And Costner's character is more kind of just the. He's the actor, the action man, the thing who moves things. But Duvall is the one who is experiencing all of it. And I think that is really a huge part of why this works so well. And it also kind of gives Costner himself as an actor the space to kind of. Here I've got maybe a slightly smaller role I can put more focus into just doing that rather than propping up this whole movie myself. [01:29:36] Speaker C: Sure. [01:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [01:29:38] Speaker A: It's. It's the only film of these three that shows just the strength of Costner in an ensemble. Rather than it being Costner plus the ensemble. This is. Yeah, Costner is in the actual ensemble in this with Duvall leading the pack and God, Costner again showing just his experience and his talent and being like, oh, my God. Like, just. I mean, he just stands there and just looks. And again, it's just like, God, he just knows how to look like. It sounds so silly to say out loud, but it's like, you could just look, he's in the zone the same as Duvall. But Duvall is just. I mean, I was literally texting Andy while I was watching the movie being like, God, Duvall is just spitting gold every fucking line. [01:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like, what other character in a movie has this many incredible lines? [01:30:26] Speaker A: Because it's like Duvall is the. The boss. He's the protagonist. He's the comedic relief at time. He's the flirt. Like, he's the one that kind of flirts with Annette Benny more than Costner. [01:30:36] Speaker C: On Kevin Costner's behalf. [01:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [01:30:39] Speaker A: He is. He is a father figure to Charlie Waite, which is Costner's character. He is a brother to Charlie. Like, he's. Duvall wears all these different hats as boss Spearman. And I think it really. I think, yeah, to Andy, I agree with Andy where it's like, just because Duvall is so good at what he does and he is the. He's holding all these different roles, that Charlie is able to be this, you know, open range, open range cowboy that is just dealing with all these years of past regret and is able just to stew in his own sadness and fear and let Duvall take the lead until he needs to take over a scene. And then when Costner takes over a scene, oh, what a fucking shock. He can take over a scene. Like, it's just everything is going on all. I mean, again, baby, Diego Luna. Talk about, like, I just forgot he was in this too because I looked at the cast a while ago and I was just like, oh, my God. Like, Diego Luna's got to be, like, in hit, like, 2021 at this point, right? Like, it's. He's. He's now in his forties. [01:31:40] Speaker C: Yeah. He had done it to Mama Tambien before this. [01:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that was. [01:31:46] Speaker C: That was kind of his breakout. Yeah, yeah. [01:31:50] Speaker A: And it's. And it's just like, with it shows the contrast from postman to this film is the fact that, like, going into this movie, it's not even 30 minutes in and I'm locked in. Like, we're not even, like, the first 30 minutes. Nothing really happens other than just, you know, the boys being boys. Just like, working, playing cards, cheating cards and pissing off Costner, getting a wagon out of a mud pit. Like, I'm just like, invested in real cowboy shit. It is real cowboy shit. And I love how, like, when Andy was initially, like, when he saw it before I did, he was like, it is doing the shit that most westerns I've watched in, like, the last year tend to not focus on, which is just actual cowboy sh. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Watching this, I was like, fuck, I'd watch 80 of these. I would just watch so much of just cowboys being genuinely just good people doing their own thing, not trying to get in anybody else's way. And then they get in their way. Then it's like, all right, you fucking. You messed with us. Now it's time to pull a John Wick. And they'd fucking do it. And they. It is just, ah. I mean, again, just again, the first 30 minutes is like, all right, we have these characters. We have our best friend Tig. It's an animal in a Kevin Costner directed film. So hopefully they'll be fine. Which we haven't talked about. That was one thing that kind of, like, we glanced over the other ones. But in dances with wolves, the actual wolf that he dances with. [01:33:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:33:17] Speaker A: Is it white socks? Is that what he calls them? Or is it long socks, white boots? [01:33:22] Speaker C: I can't remember. [01:33:23] Speaker A: It's something like, basically like something. [01:33:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:26] Speaker A: With dances with wolves, we were told, Andy and I, the one thing we did know. Cause Andy's wife brought it up was like, oh, the wolf dies. [01:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:34] Speaker A: And it's like, oh, that makes sense. We weren't told that the horse in dances with wolves gets brutally murdered. [01:33:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:33:42] Speaker A: And honestly, worse than the dog does. Worse than the wolf does. And then in the postman, the horse dies off screen and then is fed. [01:33:51] Speaker C: Yes. That is his mule. His mule. [01:33:54] Speaker A: His mule. [01:33:55] Speaker C: His mule, Bill. [01:33:55] Speaker A: And then I think another horse dies, and I'm like, all right, I see what Costner's doing since it's his second film. Two animals have to die. [01:34:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:34:03] Speaker A: And then we get to open range and, like, I. As soon as I saw it's a tig picture, like, they used that name, like, the studio. Like, then we get to see Tig, and I'm like, oh, tig's so cute. Just gets brutally murdered off screen, thankfully. But, like, it's still, like, oh, yeah, I would have. I would definitely kill Michael Gambit and his crew if he did this to me. Like, it's such a straightforward, simple premise that shows the idea that, like, you know, a lot of people think, you know, nowadays, if something really stands the test of time, it has to be complicated or being so unique to the point you've never seen anything like this before, when in reality, if you want to be a banging movie, just take what other people have done, but do it better or do it. You'll just execute it on a level that is like, fuck, I never thought you could do something this straightforward and be this captivating like this in early two thousands as a western. [01:35:03] Speaker B: Yeah, do it well. Yeah. I mean, speaking of that era that, you know, when this comes out, before we kind of get lost in the meat of why this thing sings like it does, I want to know if and if Nick has more story time for us about seeing this since we were, like, eight years old when this fair. [01:35:23] Speaker C: So let me just say, first of all, it warms this older man's heart that you guys took to this the way I did, because I was, you know, I was actually younger than you guys when I saw this the first time, so I would have been 24. So. Yeah. And I loved it then, too. So, I mean. Okay, so this is 2003, right? You've got a lot of flop, major flop westerns in that era. You've got all the pretty horses with Matt Damon, which is an interminable, interminable movie. [01:36:02] Speaker A: Just first time I've ever heard it in my life. [01:36:04] Speaker C: Billy Bob Thornton directed it. Penelope. Penelope Cruz is also in it. It was. It was adapted from very acclaimed book just a complete misfire. Okay, so that's one. You've also got the attempt to sort of rekindle the young guns ish western with there's a movie called American Outlaws that has Colin Farrell in it playing. [01:36:26] Speaker A: Really? [01:36:27] Speaker C: Yeah. I can't. [01:36:29] Speaker B: That one I've never heard of. [01:36:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Pardon me, I don't read. This was like, 2001 was American Outlaws. And then there was another movie with James Vanderbeek also, you know, fronting it called Texas Rangers that, you know, is like. And it's just all of these misbegotten westerns. Like, even later in 2003, you had a movie called the Missing that Ron Howard did with Tommy Lee Jones and Cate Blanchett that was supposed to be a big Oscar contender and was just total win. [01:36:55] Speaker A: Hold on. Is that the film that has, like, a blue poster and has them on it just kind of like looking distrust? I feel like a scene. [01:37:03] Speaker C: The poster, but not the film on that sort of. It's a quasi remake of the Searchers. It's not exactly the searchers, but it's. It's close. I mean, it's similar. It's similar enough, but. [01:37:16] Speaker A: Well, and I mean. Yeah. Another aspect about this era is this is as these westerns are coming out and flopping due to gladiator, the sword and sandals are getting resurgence. [01:37:27] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, so just like I mentioned, all of those other movies that are kind of, you know, lost to time because it's like, those are some major actors, some major filmmakers. [01:37:37] Speaker B: A lot of money behind. [01:37:38] Speaker C: Yeah. All whiffing on these movies. And look at the summer of 2003. Okay, you've got the Matrix reloaded. [01:37:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:46] Speaker C: Oh, shit. Which is at the front end of the summer, you've got pirates of the Caribbean. You've got, you know, turn that won't. [01:37:54] Speaker A: Make money, you know. [01:37:55] Speaker C: Right. You got, you know, terminator three. You've got the italian job. It's like, look at that summer. And it's like, here at the end of the summer is like Grandpa's dusty old stack of paperbacks. Right. And that's what. That's what open range felt like. I mean, even at the time, I was kind of like, really? Yeah. I was like. I was like, who's gonna go to this? Like, this seems like a. This seems like something nobody would want to see. That movie made 70 million almost. [01:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Like triple the buddy. [01:38:24] Speaker C: Yeah. It was almost a major hit relative. I actually didn't know how to do it financially. And, yeah, I just. I loved, loved, love, love this movie. I think it takes the things that interest Kevin Costner most about this nation's history, this nation's problems, sort of its curses, to perpetually destroy itself. And it just distills all that down into a movie that is never heavy handed about it because it puts these beautiful, beautiful words in Robert Duvall's mouth that it's just. It's like you guys said it. It's like every five minutes he has some line that you're just like, God fucking damn it. That is one of the best things that I've ever heard in anything, ever. [01:39:15] Speaker A: Yeah, genuinely, like. And this is just. This has nothing to do with the western, but, like, it just. There's only one other film that, like, has been on my watch list for a while this year that, like, I just watched on a whim and was like, fuck. I can't not stop thinking about this film. This is so good. To the point where it's like, when it comes in this case to open range, it's literally not a perfect film because, like, there's two scenes where it's like, ah, they could have done that better or they could do that better, but it's not the point where it kills the scenes. It's literally like, cinemasins level. Like, barely anything there to, like, I'm nothing. Yeah, I'm nitpicking because, like, maybe the. Maybe tomorrow I'll go, fuck it. It's a ten out of ten and I'd be fine with that. Yeah, like, it's. It just. It just. I hadn't been a long time watch something like this. I mean, if. If chapter two of Horizon even feels like a fraction of this, I'm down for three. Like, that's kind of where I'm at with this. [01:40:09] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and this open range for me was like the worst thing to watch right before. Yes, yes, you did before. It wasn't immediately before, but it was like within a few days or something. Yeah, I was primed off of that. And, you know, maybe. Yeah, like you said, horizon two might give me what open range gave me. We'll see. [01:40:27] Speaker A: But we finally get that stagecoach scene. [01:40:32] Speaker C: Guy that he kicks into the fence. [01:40:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, two shots into the. [01:40:36] Speaker A: Yeah, gosh, more of that. Can't wait for August. [01:40:40] Speaker B: But yeah, I mean, this is. I told Logan this, Nick. And, you know, maybe this is. Maybe this is a young un's reference that may be lost on you, but watching open Ranger Lee made me feel like, because one of my favorite video games of all time is Red Dead redemption two came out a few years back, which is kind of this massive Hail Mary attempt in the video games industry at kind of distilling everything that our culture loves about westerns into a single experience. It's it's a little bit of everything, a little bit of every era of westerns. And, you know, over the last couple years, I've been watching a ton of westerns. Like, because I have so many blind spots in the genre. I'd never seen most of the classics. I played that game and was like, oh, man, I need to, like, expose myself more to westerns, not to the public. [01:41:36] Speaker A: And thank you for that. [01:41:37] Speaker C: Everybody knows you have good semen, Andy. You don't need to. [01:41:41] Speaker B: You don't need movie the bad mumps, I swear. And, you know, so I've been watching all these movies, tons of amazing movies that I've been lucky to uncover in the process. But, you know, all of them were like, pieces of the puzzle that kind of eventually made up this quintessential experience of Red Dead redemption. And then watching open range feels like, okay, this is the movie. Like, this is the movie that if Red Dead was based off a single movie, this is kind of what it would be like. This has all of that, has the hard hitting action, the thrills. It has the romance. It has the dying west core kind of the condemnation of certain aspects of our culture here in America. You know, violence as a currency throughout our history and that sort of thing. And it's just. Yeah, it rips and it kind of succeeds on every level. I mean, like you said, Logan, I can think of one scene that really kind of just doesn't work, but it doesn't really damage the rest of the thing. [01:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. I mean, again, yeah, it's wild to watch a Wild west like a western. Not even just in the era of two thousands, but just watch a western that's so late in the timeline. Yeah, that era. And have it not have eight different characters. And there's nothing wrong with films that do this, but a lot of these films that have, like, the later western era is basically like eight or nine people going, the west is dead. It'll never be like this anymore. It's like, with open range. It doesn't do that in open range. It's just one sigh from Robert Duvall or just a look of longing from Costner is enough to be like, yeah, we've been at this game together for a decade. [01:43:36] Speaker B: Yeah, you can just. [01:43:37] Speaker A: A decade's a long fucking time. [01:43:39] Speaker B: They don't have to talk about it. Cause they're wearing it. Like they are physically burdened by the kind of the era they live in and the cultural mechanisms that surround them. [01:43:51] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [01:43:52] Speaker A: Cause again, too, it's like if Tom Cruise looked like he was born with a. Like a motorcycle keys in his hand. Like, Kevin Costner looks like he was born with, like, a leather baseball bat. Like a baseball glove in his hand or put in that baseball glove. Like, he just has this look of, like, the comfiness of a leather couch in the best way possible. Like, in a western, for sure, where it's like he looks like he wears leather jackets that are a little too, like, just genuine. Like, he just looks like he wears very warm things just as pajamas. [01:44:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:44:26] Speaker A: Like, it's just kind of fascinating to see how well he fits that. I mean, and speaking of just, like, wearing just the western aesthetic so perfectly, I. If there's one person I have, I think, an even bigger blind spot than Costner, I think it's Duvall. Like, it's. Watching this again. Again. I think it was funny. There are certain people, like actors in my lifetime, and probably it's the same actors for you too, Nick, where it's just like, in our, like, where it's just like, you see this actor and it's like, I don't think this actor has ever looked under the age of 45. [01:45:01] Speaker B: I think maybe every Duval movie I've seen besides one, he's been, like, over the hill, you know? [01:45:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think to kill a mockingbird's the only one I freaks. When I saw that film as a yemenite child, actually, no, I think was in high school when I saw that and I knew that was Duvall, it freaked me out. [01:45:20] Speaker C: It is. Yeah. It's like that effect of seeing them, you're like, wait, that in my head, it's. [01:45:25] Speaker A: It's Duvall. Sam Elliot and Tommy Lee Jones have always looked the same in their entire lifetime. And with. I mean, it's like. But watching Duvall in this, it is like. It's like, man, I know it's been 20 plus years since this movie came out, but, like, if I saw Duvall in Horizon, I'd clap. [01:45:41] Speaker C: Like, stand up and salute. [01:45:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it'd be like an MCU reveal. Like in a fucking packed theater where it's like, oh, my God, Duvall's in Horizon. [01:45:52] Speaker B: I'm here to talk to you about the Horizon initiative. [01:45:55] Speaker A: Even if he did, like, a cry macho like old man punch that Eastwood does in that film, I would still be like, ah, Duvall's back. It's just like, watching this, it's. Again, it's like, yeah. The three heavy hitters in this film, per se are Costner, Duvall and Annette Bening, who is just also wonderful in this movie. [01:46:17] Speaker B: Yeah, she is really good. And for a while in this movie, I was kind of worried about her character. It kind of felt like a prime opportunity for Costner to just kind of, like, give a really broad, boring, traditional depiction of, like, a female romantic interest in a western. And I have my qualms with kind of the very end of the movie and her involvement, but I think it's a commanding performance, and I really enjoy how she kind of sticks it back to Costner's character throughout their sort of push and pull relationship. [01:47:02] Speaker A: Again, it has the shows just how good Costner is as a director as well as just the material he picks. Like, when it really clicks, you definitely see him being like, all right, let's be real here. Yes, it is the west. Yes, she is an older woman. She's still a woman during the old west times, but she has lived long enough that she can have opinions. [01:47:24] Speaker B: Yeah, she's. [01:47:25] Speaker A: She's intelligent in her own way. She's passionate and compassionate in her own way. And she doesn't have to be that way because she has a husband. Like, just because they're like, you know, like, she can. She could also have a sense of longing. [01:47:39] Speaker C: Sure. [01:47:39] Speaker A: Just the fact that, like, yo, yo. There's the one scene in this movie that I was like, this might be a little too creepy. I don't know if this is gonna work. And it's when he looks in the mirror and sees her just, like, getting, like, getting dressed. And it's like, one of those scenes where it's like, this might not work, but when she looks back at him, there's a moment of just, like, they're both really looking at each other. This is a good moment. Okay, this is good. This works. Like, again, another kind of dances with wolves situation where it's like we're really tiptoeing between, like, this could really not work, or this works. And this movie is just constantly working. Like, I love the fact that, like, Duvall, at a certain point in this film, is just a stranger in this small town. He is in this. He is in this cafe, and he goes, I just want all of you to know that the lawman is corrupt. It's bullshit. Right here. We have no qualms with any of you, but we're going to kill your sheriff and the man that owns this town. And in the span of a day, all these people are like, you know what? We're here for you on that. [01:48:40] Speaker B: God damn it. [01:48:40] Speaker A: He's right. [01:48:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that guy's a guy's. A dick. This should happen. [01:48:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:44] Speaker A: Is it. Is it. Is it Mike? Michael Jeter. Yes. Who? [01:48:49] Speaker C: Yeah, stable master. [01:48:50] Speaker A: Yeah, stable master. Who doesn't show up in either one of, I think, Costner's other directed films, but has worked with Costner and other stuff. [01:48:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:48:59] Speaker A: And when he shows up, and it's just like, he's. He's a delight. Like, when he starts being involved at the end, I was like, oh, hell, yeah. [01:49:07] Speaker C: That. That moment where you think that, like, maybe he is firing on them, but he's, like, really signaling. Like, he's like, there's two over here. And you're like, yes, yes. [01:49:16] Speaker A: Again, it's like if you're playing Red Dead and, like, you're online and, like, one of your friends joins, and it's like, all right, we're in. Let's get it going. [01:49:24] Speaker B: You immediately get shot at, and it's your friend just telling you. [01:49:27] Speaker C: Right. [01:49:28] Speaker A: And again, another thing that shows just how good this movie is. And I think a lot of people, understandably with the cultural significance of the western in classic cinema, as well as going into, like, the era where the neo western becomes the new way of bringing that. [01:49:45] Speaker B: Yeah, this is kind of right before that era really takes over. And that's all you see. [01:49:51] Speaker A: But it's just the fact that, like, this is a film where, like, when I was watching this, Andy and I is one of our best friends, as well as my roommate Adam, when he was coming back home from work, when I was, like, towards the end of the film, and, like, right before the shootout was gonna happen, and I was like, Adam, this movie fucking rips. I will watch this with you definitely in the future. I bought this movie digitally. Don't usually do that, but I did, and I'm not. I don't regret it. Whenever it gets a 4k blu ray release, don't give a shit. I'll get it. But what the most fascinating part about this, Adam, is that there has been no shootouts, right? This whole bucket film. This whole film has been engaging entirely on performances and drama. And then when the shootout stops, then. [01:50:34] Speaker B: It finally gives it to you. [01:50:36] Speaker A: Oh, it's so visceral. It's so well done. The shootouts so good. [01:50:41] Speaker C: I don't want to. I don't want to spoil it, but, like, the way the shootout begins is, like, when. When that happened in the theater. Like, you could have picked my jaw up off the ground. I was like, oh, my God. Like, we're in it now, I think. [01:50:55] Speaker A: I. I cackled. I cackled. I went, no fucking way. This is how we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what? [01:51:01] Speaker B: I was really so giddy. Yeah. I was really, like, my viewing experience. I watched this movie alone, although I was kind of giving Nick a little bit of play by play. Kind of like, Logan, you were giving me. You know, I was really, like, rooting for this movie. I really wanted to be sucked in by it because I knew Nick really loved it. I wasn't as big on dances with wolves as. As you are. I hated postman. And so watching this movie, I was like, you know, I I think this one's gonna give it to me. I think it is. But my first indication of, like, oh, I know I'm gonna get exactly what I want from this movie is when he's. Costner and Duvall are in the bar, and Costner takes out a shotgun and shoots the sign. [01:51:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And no vagrants or vagrants. [01:51:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Shoots the sign. The camera shakes the whole set. Seems to shake my living room shook from the sound of the shotgun. And I was like, oh, baby, he's got more of this. Yeah, he's got more of this coming. And he sure does. And when the. When the kind of climax hits, it's just like, it's so well done. It's so well paced, and the sound editing is incredible. And there's, like, 15 different distinct, amazing moments. Like, you know, a lot of shootout scenes are just kind of, like, a lot of bullets flying, and, like, you're just kind of like, oh, I hope the character doesn't get hit. But this. There's, like, you know, a dozen little set pieces within the shootout as they're making their way around the town. And I just love that. [01:52:44] Speaker A: I love hearing that. That was kind of the moment for you where it was like, oh, this movie's gonna do something to me because, like, for me, like, genuinely, it is. And I think this happens. Doesn't happen all the time, but I think this really shows just in my head where it's like, oh, this movie's really gonna resonate with me. Well, it's the small moments in the very beginning. [01:53:03] Speaker B: Oh, well, yeah, I'm just talking about in terms of the action. [01:53:07] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. [01:53:07] Speaker B: Like, I was fully on board with this movie prior to that scene, but that scene was when I knew, like, oh, this I get. You know, get to have my cake and eat it, too, because there's, like. [01:53:17] Speaker A: You know, I think the big. The moment that really got me to love the whole crew a bit more is, like, when Charlie kicks button into the water. Cause he's still pissed at him for cheating, right? And then, like, button's like, but I apologized, and boss is like, oh, he didn't. He's still a little mad at you. [01:53:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:53:33] Speaker A: Or, like, when they bring back mose after. Like, at this point, you know, I already was like, well, I don't. I don't think Mose is gonna be the one to make it out of this if anyone does. Yeah, but when they bring back Mose and they're leaving and Moses, like, I bought some sugar when I was in town. And it's like they both get giddy and they run back like children. It's like these little moments where. It's like, these are the little moments that sometimes get lost when, like, a studio exec or someone watches and being like, why is that in here? And to be honest, those moments are in there because it adds the humanity and adds the kind of the. The feeling that you're involved with these characters because you're seeing these vulnerable, fun, silly moments before it gets serious. And it's just like. I mean, even like, the first big laugh that got out of me was, like, very early on, when they're like, I don't think there's been enough rain here since Noah had the flood. And then Moe says, you would know. You were there, boss. [01:54:26] Speaker C: Right? [01:54:27] Speaker A: And then boss just gets up and goes, what did you just say? And then button repeats it as if he didn't hear it. And then boss sock goes. Boss just pauses and goes, well, it still wasn't this bad. As if he's playing along with the joke, and it's like, okay. These guys are way too, you know, hard to paint for one another. I'm really enjoying this to the point when. When it gets to be more serious. Yeah. Like, when that shot happens in the bar again, that's one of the moments where I am just, like, giddy. Like, I'm going, oh, here we go. Oh, my God. Okay. Or, like. Yeah, it just. It is. Yeah. From the small moments to the big moments, it's just. It hits. [01:55:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:55:08] Speaker A: And it, like, the stuff that is wrong with the film, quote unquote, is so minuscule in. In comparison to what it does perfectly, what it succeeds at, where it really is. Honest to God, it is. I am glad that I was the opposite of you, Andy, where I didn't watch this until after we saw chapter one of horizon, because now I couldn't be more just like, all right, now. [01:55:31] Speaker C: We got in it. Yeah. [01:55:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Hopefully we got the slowest chapter out of the way. Let's get to the stuff that could be a lot of fun. Let's go, Costner. I want more open range. [01:55:40] Speaker C: So. So I will say so. There's. There's one thing that bothers me every time about this movie, and I think I mentioned. I mentioned it to Andy in our, in our chat. So I'm with you on the courtship that Costner and Bening have. I think it's incredibly grounded in a way that doesn't feel corny. It doesn't feel. It doesn't diminish either of them because. So this movie is set after the Civil War. Charlie is Kevin Costner's character. Charlie's civil War past actually plays a pretty pivotal role in his approach to this entire conflict that he and Spearman face. He also talks about that with Annette Bening's character. So what I love most about the way they connect is like, you know, that there's been no, no small amount of, you know, brutes and buffoons that have hit on her and tried to get with her. Oh, yeah, here's a guy that's acknowledging I'm kind of a mess. All right. [01:56:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:56:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:56:49] Speaker C: Here are the ways in which I'm a mess. Here are the ways in which I'm trying to atone for that. And there's an emotional honesty to that that I think she just latches onto. And the movie is. Just gives you just enough of that, doesn't really linger on that, but that's enough to be a connection for them across the duration of the movie where. Where the movie drops off a little bit for me. And it bothers me every time because it's just like, if you took this one, if you took this one thing out, it would be absolutely perfect. There's two sequences near the end. [01:57:24] Speaker B: It's like in the epilogue, right? [01:57:26] Speaker C: Yeah. So after the gunfight, there's two sequences near the end where those two characters sort of reconcile the future of where this goes. Right. You know, all their cards are on the table. She's seen him at kind of his essence of a violent person. You know, he's seen her for what she's willing to accept. They have two scenes that are almost exactly the same stacked atop one another to a point where it's like Costner shot two different scenes and liked them too much to get rid of either one. And as you said, andy, you were kind of thrown because it's like, has there been a lot of time passing here? [01:58:07] Speaker B: Like, why? It felt like there was a time jump in between. [01:58:10] Speaker A: No, it did. [01:58:11] Speaker C: Yeah. It's like, why are we having the same scene right on top of each other? [01:58:13] Speaker A: I mean, it shows how much I know exactly what scene you're. Yeah. And this movie, it's like this movie. [01:58:19] Speaker C: Is otherwise just expertly assembled. Like, it's not. [01:58:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:58:23] Speaker C: I mean, the pacing is just right, and that's why it sticks out to me. So that's the only thing that always bothers me. Now to your. To go back to something you said, Logan, you bought this. Did this keep me from buying a region free Blu ray player with the intent to get a Blu ray copy from Germany? No, I've done those things I love because it's not on Blu ray here, which is insane to me. [01:58:49] Speaker A: I'm going to tell you right now on this podcast, if there is one of these podcasters, like, one of the hosts on this show, that is going to shame you for buying Blu rays in some way, shape, or form, it is not going to be good. Good, because I. Andy has outright said, both on the pod and off the podest, Logan, you don't need to buy these movies if we're watching them. And I'm like, andy, I like these movies. I kind of want to own them. [01:59:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:59:15] Speaker A: Like, I will. Definitely. I will be honest, Nick, I did see that there was a Blu ray, and there was a part of my brain that went, maybe. No, let's watch it first again. Because I basically bought a digital because it was on sale. [01:59:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:59:29] Speaker A: It was literally like a dollar more for. I was like, ah, I'm not gonna hate this as much as postman. And then I watched this, and I went, oh, I want a 4k release tomorrow. I want it in steelbook. I want Costner to do a commentary. I want open range content so much more. [01:59:45] Speaker C: It's so funny, too, because the Blu ray that I have, it has, like, a little introduction from Kevin Costner. And literally, here's all he says. This is literally what he says. He's like, welcome to the german special edition of open range. I hope you enjoy it. [02:00:01] Speaker A: That's all. [02:00:01] Speaker C: That's it. And then just the start of the movie. The movie start. [02:00:05] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Chili Duvall. [02:00:07] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [02:00:07] Speaker A: Thank you for watching. [02:00:08] Speaker C: Right. But otherwise, so, I mean, you know, we've talked a lot about, you know, the many great things about this. I mean, as you said, the simple moments just, I think it's when they bring mo's back after he's been beaten, doesn't Tig, like, kind of rest on him? Yeah, that's such, like, it's just like. [02:00:27] Speaker A: Well, that's. Yeah, that's how they know something's wrong is when they come back after they. Sure. The guys in the woods, Tig's not coming to them. [02:00:36] Speaker C: Well, right. Yeah. I mean, but that moment before, like, when they. When they, you know, they. They get mos. Like they, you know, he, like, rests on him. He's like. He knows. The dog knows, like, my friend is in. Is hurting. And just like that, that little momentous. Here's what I feel about this movie, to be perfectly honest with you. Okay? 2003, it was never gonna get nominated for best picture. All right? That was like Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. That was like the year. That was like the year to reward that movie. And I don't fault them at all for that because I think that was the right call. Go back and look at the best actor nominees from that year. [02:01:14] Speaker A: Andy, please do that. You do that now. [02:01:17] Speaker C: I can tell you right now which one can yank the hell out of there and put Robert Duvall in because. [02:01:23] Speaker A: Oh, I mean, Andy. I would say, andy, don't even tell me what the winner is. Just tell me what the nominees are and I'll just say out the gate which ones I would take off. [02:01:33] Speaker B: We got. Okay, the nominees. Yeah, we got Sean Penn for Mystic river. [02:01:40] Speaker A: All right. [02:01:41] Speaker B: Johnny Depp for Pirates of the Caribbean. The first one. Ben Kingsley for house of sand and fog. Jude Law for Cold Mountain, and Bill Murray for lost in translation. [02:01:54] Speaker C: That's. That's a good lineup. That's my point. [02:01:56] Speaker A: That is a really good line. [02:01:57] Speaker C: That's a good lineup. What is Jude law doing in there, man? Come on. Like, Cold Mountain is one of those movies that nobody has thought about in at least a decade. If not, I'm gonna be honest, I. [02:02:11] Speaker A: Got that movie for the. The longest time growing up, mixed up with Mystic River, I knew they were never the same movie, but, like. But I would just like. Oh, yeah, is that. No, that's not the one that Sean Penn. [02:02:20] Speaker C: I mean. [02:02:20] Speaker A: Okay. [02:02:21] Speaker B: I don't think I've even ever heard of Cold Mountain, so. [02:02:24] Speaker C: Well, Minnie Zellweger won an Academy Award for it. She won. She won. I believe she won best supporting actress for that. [02:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah. For cold Mount. She sure did. [02:02:33] Speaker C: So, I mean, that was a movie that was like, you know, really big Oscar, you know, big Oscar campaign. Here's the thing, man. I'm not going to take Johnny Depp out of there for that performance. I'm not going to take Sean Penn out. I'm not going to take Bill Murray out. Ben Kingsley is very good in House of Sand and fog. Like, those are four solid ones. Put Robert Duvall in there, for christ's sake. I mean, like, this is, this is like, the man is 71 years old in this movie. He is the credible action lead of this movie. He broke six. Broke six ribs getting bucked from a horse while I prepping for this movie. And he just. He owns. He owns this entire movie. And it's not just a badass performance. Like, and this kind of takes me back to where what I said about the postman, he's a guy that he looks at what is happening, right? Like some of his, some of his crew have gotten, you know, beaten. They, you know, they eventually are murdered. He's looking and he's like, I have a philosophy. The cows should be meant to graze. We should be meant to take them wherever we want. I have conscripted these guys into that philosophy. They are rolling with me. I have brought them into this. What are the consequences of bringing them into this? You see Duvall wrestle with that without ever really vocalizing it. And one of the things that I love in this movie is that moment when they decide to. So Charlie sort of gives him the confessional. Right? About, like, his, his violent past. [02:04:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:04:04] Speaker C: And I love that. That's also a moment that, like, only after ten years on the trail together could they have had that conversation. Like, you know, this was never anything that was going to come out earlier. I love that his response to that is like, I'm going to buy you a cigar. That's the finest you've ever smoked. I'm going to buy you chocolate that the general store manager can't even afford. Like, he can't. He can't tell you if it's good because he can't afford it, right? Like, if this is gonna be their last day, like, I'm gonna give you, like, simple pleasures of the land. I'm gonna give you tobacco and chocolate, which are crops from the land. And it's like you're probably like, nick, okay? Like, you know, galaxy. Galaxy brings bullshit that you're bringing to this, you know, very pleasant western. But it's like, Duvall brings all of that stuff. [02:04:51] Speaker A: But that's the fucking thing that was about with Costner as an auteur, both as an actor, as a director, just as a creative. I could see Costner thinking that and saying that out loud, even though he didn't write the script for this one. It was, um. But just having him be like this. Like, hearing the exact same thing you said and just having a bunch of crew members be like, oh, fuck. I just thought he was getting chocolate. And, like, I mean, it's just. And I love. I mean, the same scene. That's a great scene that shows just kind of, like, where boss is in that moment in terms of the last moments they have together. Boss is thinking about everyone around him but himself. [02:05:26] Speaker C: Yes. [02:05:27] Speaker A: Like, as soon as he hears that the store clerk has never had that chocolate before. And, I mean, honestly, the. The scene, I think, is capped off perfectly when he basically is coming in like a high loader, just like, being like, give me two things of dark chocolate and three cigars. And the. And, like, the convenience store guy's like, oh, my God, you are buying so much. It's so expensive. He's like, oh, how much is it? How much is it? Yeah, $5. [02:05:51] Speaker C: Right? [02:05:52] Speaker A: And it's like, Duvall's been throwing that, like, easy this whole time. And it's just showing just, like, how Duvall is well off. He's like, he's. He's doing well enough as an open range grazer, as a cowboy, well enough. And just to see in his. Look in his face where, like, he doesn't say anything about him saying dollar five. But you can tell I'm. He just knows what kind of town this is. And then at the same time, you have Kevin Costner basically writing his last will and testament, being, sell all my things for my horse to buy this tea set for this woman I met three days ago. And just being like, it is. It is. I love, again, showing how Costner is as a creative as well as this with his three directed films. At this point, like, the love interests are so vastly different with each film where it's like, with dances with wolves, there is a base level of, like, we are the only two white people in this area, but we have a connection here in terms of, like, you're teaching me the ways of Lakota people, and I'm teaching you kind of more of just being just, you know, a white person in the era of the civil War. It's like talking about life and whatnot and what we like about each other. And also, we're both hot, so no surprise we're gonna get together in postman. It is just like, I think I even looked at Andy at one point. I thought that Peggy Lipton might be his love. [02:07:10] Speaker C: Oh, wow. [02:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah, because it's just like. Yeah, because, like, again, it's, like, hot off the heels of, like, you know, a few years prior was twin Peaks. And, you know, it's. It's just like, oh, my God, Peggy Lipton. And, like, you know, Kevin Costner. Like, they're both. They're both hot. They're close in age. Like, that would be a really cool combination because I like Peggy Lipton. And then when I realized who the real love interest is in the postman, I was like, ahh. There's a missed opportunity. [02:07:32] Speaker C: She just wants his semen. [02:07:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:07:35] Speaker A: And also the fact that he's 25 years older than him, it's real Tom cruise effect there. But, like, the fact that, yeah, an open range, it's like they get together because at a certain point, Costner comes up to her and goes, listen, I smell like shit. I have issues, but I will never not love you. I will cook for you. And I look good, mustache and all, in this outfit. And she goes, here's the thing, is that I've lived in this town long enough. Nearly everyone here is who has been single has tried to fuck me, and it hasn't worked. And that's good, because I've been waiting for someone like you my entire life. [02:08:14] Speaker C: I mean, she. [02:08:15] Speaker A: You know what? Let's go for it. [02:08:16] Speaker C: She even says, they may be little things, but they're enough for a woman who looks what a great. Like. I mean, everybody gets great lines in this. [02:08:24] Speaker A: Everybody. It's just. [02:08:27] Speaker C: And then. And then he says, men are gonna get killed here today, and I'm gonna kill him, sue, you understand that? [02:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, it's. Yeah, he says it in that. He says that in that Costner draw that. It's just like I'm so in the. [02:08:41] Speaker C: It's a pretty day for making things right. What? So good. [02:08:47] Speaker B: Oh, well, you were. You were talking earlier about when I, you know, Duvall kind of confronts him about his past and the moment sort of right before that. I love where Costner is, like, on the edge of a cliff, kneeling down, you know, stressed out, tall, hell. And Duvall just comes up behind him, and it's like, you know, we never asked much about each other. That was okay with me. Figured that was okay with you. Like, I just love that. Like, just ten years of. Just assumption. [02:09:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:09:19] Speaker B: Of, we don't need to get into that stuff. Like, we get it. [02:09:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, again, it's the little moments. The little moments. The fact that the film never stops doing those moments. The fact that right before the shootout happens, again, phenomenal scene is. Tell me your. [02:09:37] Speaker C: Yes, I was just gonna say. [02:09:38] Speaker B: Oh, right. [02:09:38] Speaker C: I don't want to spoil it. But I was just like, it's so good. [02:09:41] Speaker A: I won't even spoil what their real names are because in all honesty, it even comes back in the funny way. [02:09:46] Speaker C: Right? [02:09:47] Speaker A: And again, again, it's so funny. [02:09:48] Speaker B: Also in the name scene, we get the melted chocolate. [02:09:51] Speaker C: Yeah, they don't even. [02:09:52] Speaker A: Chocolate is like, literally a little costner with two fingers just poking the chocolate and just licking it. It's still good regardless. It's like, ah, again, another, another thing that just, like, it just shows just how in the postman, it's clear that Costner's trying to be like, listen, I can be very charismatic and funny on my own. Like, you know, I'm trying really hard to do this and it doesn't really work. And then in open range, he's fucking hilarious. Just when, like, again, in that scene where, like, boss is talking to him, being like, we never really talked about our past in that scene, he just goes, quit standing behind a man, boss. [02:10:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:10:27] Speaker A: That's all he says. And it's just funny just to be like, he's just basically having a hissy fit as a man. Just like, sitting there pondering and like, also, anytime button does anything or just, you know, it just. It just shows how when he is given and he gives enough confidence to himself as well as to production as, like, an actor and a director, as well as just confidence in the work itself, it almost. That's when Costner basically feels like he's effortless on a level that is, like, very hard to, like, maintain. And I think in any film, I think any, especially if you are one of the lead actors and directing at the same time and also producing, there's no way Costner didn't fucking produce this film as well as all the other ones in this list. And just like, to have him just show up and to be, quote unquote, sidekick. But even that is not a good way to describe just how important Charlie is to the story. And just that relationship between boss and Charlie where it's like, God, this is some brotherly love if I've ever seen this shit. Like, this is just. I could watch again, I'm saying this now, and I know I'd eat my own words because we're gonna get three more fucking horizon films. I'd watch 5 hours of just boss and Charlie fucking around. Like, yeah, it just is, like, you find, like, you, the best way to, like, really get someone invested is be like, you have these characters that you could watch until the day you die. You only get them for 2 hours and 15 minutes. And we're gonna make sure you get the best moments with those characters. And open range is a testament to just how you can fucking maximize your time even in the smallest moments. [02:12:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:12:09] Speaker A: And God, it's so good. [02:12:11] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, this is his best movie, his best directorial effort in a walk for me. [02:12:16] Speaker A: I'm saying this. I'm saying this on the pod, Nick, because it hold me to it. I would do a Costner marathon at some point in the future. [02:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:12:25] Speaker A: I don't know what that would look like. We would just do maybe a Costner wheel. We'd have like a real colored wheel and have Costner's face in the middle. [02:12:32] Speaker C: Keep 3000 miles to Graceland off of it. [02:12:35] Speaker B: That's for sure. [02:12:36] Speaker A: Oh, I know about that one. Not seen it, but I know. [02:12:40] Speaker C: So to kind of give like some. Some more like Costner context. Right. So, you know, six years between. Six years between postman and open range. Right. So it's like, what is he doing in between that? Well, that's probably like the saddest time of his career. Cause, like, he did a movie called Dragonfly that is just like. It's like treacly supernatural romantic drama. It's awful. It's just awful. But nothing is worse than 3000 miles to Graceland. And so what's interesting is you brought up Tombstone and Wyatt Earp. So Kurt Russell is in 3000 miles to Graceland also. [02:13:22] Speaker A: That's right. [02:13:22] Speaker C: This is a movie about Elvis impersonators that rob a casino in Vegas. And it spins out into double crosses and betrayals and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's one of the worst, like, Tarantino knockoff vibe things you can imagine. But the guy who directed it is inconsequential because they basically let Costner make a cut and they let Kurt Russell make a cut. And apparently. Apparently Kurt Russell's was kind of lighter and funnier and Costner's was apparently what they put out. I tried to rewatch it for this in good conscience. I bailed after 20 minutes. I was like, this is just unwatchable. I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. And the other apocryphal story is that he sort of took over on Waterworld, which he did. But it was like, for like the last two weeks because Kevin Reynolds, who was the credited director who he worked with on Robin Hood left because he was like, screw this. Like, this is just, you know, I can't take it. You know, he was probably being an intolerable jerk and he just finished it, you know. But yeah, I mean, for open range to be what it was at the time, I was like, that was the other thing. It was like I had seen Dragonfly. I had seen 3000 miles to Graceland. I'm like, is this gonna be like another like Costner thing? That just makes me like sad about what he used to be. And then it was just like, where was this guy? [02:14:46] Speaker B: Like, where have you been, man? [02:14:48] Speaker C: Right. And then after that, he kind of had a little bit of a comeback. He kind of did more like bit parts, you know, supporting roles, character roles. He's really great in a movie called the upside of anger that came out a couple years later. He's in a movie called the Company Menta with Ben Affleck and Tommy Jones. Just a great supporting role in that. He just sort of, you know, I mean, obviously he did the Jack Ryan movie, which is pretty forgettable, but he's otherwise good in it. He's good in man of Steel. He kind of got into that like, you know, the. And Kevin Costner years, like. [02:15:23] Speaker B: Right, right, yeah. [02:15:24] Speaker A: Because he's also. He shows up in Molly's game. [02:15:26] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:15:28] Speaker A: Appearance. [02:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah, he's forgot about that. [02:15:30] Speaker A: Yeah, he's Molly's dad. [02:15:31] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, it's like one scene and it's just. Yeah, perfect. [02:15:35] Speaker A: It's all at this point again, even though it's both still one of Andy and I's blind spots in terms of costume career, the amount that we have at least seen at this point is now at the point where if I retro, like, just go rewatch those films that we have seen with Costner in it and it's not him directing or writing. My head is always gonna go, how did they convince him to do this when he's so like. He seems to be in the creative process so much. Especially with like something like Molly's game. It's like clearly Costner. You're in one scene, it's an important scene, but it's a scene. And you're working with Sorkin, who at this point is never gonna make a flop in his life. He's never gonna make a film that's divisive. You know, he made West Wing and social network. This big guy, you know, just work with this guy or like, with something with like man of Steel or Batman v Superman. Cuz he's in that too where it's just like. Yeah, you're in smaller scenes and all. Honestly, I think John Kent. I think Paul Kent is like genuinely one of the most interesting parts of those films and could be actually good if they tweaked it a little here and there. But that's besides the point. It just, like, Costner does a really good job giving humanity to those roles. To that role. And, yeah, it's just like, now it's at a point where, like, in my brain I'm like, is there even a point where, like, Costner could play more of an antagonist? Like, be like a really charismatic or like, even just. [02:16:56] Speaker C: He does in 3000 miles to Graceland, but you just don't want to watch it? [02:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing. It's just like, now you're just saying. Now you're just trying to tease me with one of the worst Costner films and say, like, all the thing you want is there. [02:17:08] Speaker B: It's just absolutely baiting you, Logan. [02:17:10] Speaker A: Yeah, he is. And you know what, Andy? You've seen my morbid curiosity. We both have the same. [02:17:16] Speaker C: He also plays an antagonist in a movie that, that my wife to this day brings up as a miserable experience that she had at the movies was a movie called Mister Brooks. [02:17:29] Speaker A: Oh, my God. I've seen Mister Brooks. It's actually one of the ones I have. [02:17:33] Speaker C: He plays a serial killer and William hurt plays his alter ego with whom he has long conversations before he kills people. And Demi Moore is the cop chasing him. That movie is a complete mess. But it is. He's better as a. [02:17:48] Speaker A: What do you mean? I mean, Dane Cook's in it. How could he be a mess? [02:17:50] Speaker C: I know, right? Costume's at least interesting in that. Like, as far as, like an antagonist role, a villain role, he's at least doing something more interesting in that than in 3000 miles to grace. [02:18:01] Speaker A: Well, I'm like, I genuinely think, like, the easiest, like, again, I think the easiest double hit you could give Costner now is like, if they did, like another hitman's bodyguard, like Reynolds Jackson film, you make him like an antagonist or you met, you put him in there and it's like, listen, I never saw the second one, but if Costner's in the third one, like, I'd give it a shot. I'd catch up and probably be like, wow, this was made. [02:18:25] Speaker C: I saw that. [02:18:25] Speaker A: But I would give it a shot. [02:18:26] Speaker C: I saw the second one. He would be an improvement over anything. [02:18:30] Speaker A: I mean, I would believe it. Like, it's like he just, he has, he still has a bit of, even though he's, you know, had ebbs and flows in his career for decades, he's still definitely now post, like, you know, I'm gonna make my stance and end Yellowstone and my journey with Yellowstone here. Like, he now has a bit of a, like, he didn't fall off in that show. Like, he. No one will talk about him. Like, oh, you know, Costner was never good in this season. Like, now people are talking about like, Yellowstone's as if Yellowstone's not an ensemble cast or always been an ensemble cast. Now he's gone. [02:19:03] Speaker C: Sure. [02:19:03] Speaker A: So it's. Yeah, it's just, again, watching something like open range being like, I get it. It is not realistic, even in an acting sense, to keep having open ranges throughout your career. But if Horizon does give me that again, I. Then I got scared when I thought of that. Cause I was like, I might watch all three other films if that's like. If that's a chance. If that's even like a good chance of that. [02:19:30] Speaker C: Open range came out in August. Horizon chapter two is coming out in August. August is a good month. [02:19:36] Speaker A: The signs. Signs are there. [02:19:38] Speaker B: Poetry at Ryan Nick saying it now. [02:19:41] Speaker A: The Costner comeback starts. What if he, like, what if when chapter two goes around and he's doing interviews, he goes, by the way, I've shot the other two already. They're gonna come out by the end of the year. Could you imagine? [02:19:54] Speaker B: Well, he did kind of. He did kind of reveal the four part plan sort of off the cuff. [02:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is. It was like he was talking. He's like having a cup of Joe with just a random interviewer being like, oh, buddy. [02:20:05] Speaker B: Well, we're actually doing four take, right? [02:20:09] Speaker A: Yeah. I think with just going into these three, not only are they just exceptionally odd in their own ways, all three of them, but just seeing the potential from the beginning with dances of wolves and just seeing how well it hit so hard in 90 to the probably hopefully is the lowest he'll go as a director with postman to just basically coming back with the sleeper hit in zero three. It's just like. It's the kind of story that I like to see compared to, like, other trilogies where it's like. And the third one fucking sucks. [02:20:43] Speaker C: Right. [02:20:44] Speaker A: Sorry about that, guys. Well, rough. We gotta end on a sad note. [02:20:49] Speaker B: Well, it's kind of a perfect trilogy or like, up until Horizon, a perfect filmography in a way, because it's kind of like you get to see like, everything great and everything maybe kind of shitty about who Costner is as an artist. Like what he wants to communicate with his art. And you kind of get to see the full spectrum of what can come from that line that Costner is always riding yeah. Like, just about everything he does or at least everything that he gets to put his creative stamp on the, like. [02:21:26] Speaker A: I mean, it is fascinating to think that, like, there is, again, an alternate reality where it's. There's, like, a Costner that has a grand trino esque, like, has another film in the late two thousands that does pretty well, hopefully would age better than Gran Torino does. But ultimately, like, keeps him going as a director longer than he probably should be doing it. When in reality, I mean, it's. It. There is kind of a niceness, the fact that he is just like, listen, I am Kevin Costner. And as much as I like directing, I am Kevin Costner the actor. I'm not going to do it unless I can really go full ham into it. [02:22:02] Speaker B: I am what I am. [02:22:02] Speaker A: Again. He is what he is. [02:22:04] Speaker C: He's just Kev. [02:22:06] Speaker A: He's just Kev. He wants to do westerns. He wants to show more cock. He's got great semen. And he has one hell of a career that I think we'll definitely talk about again at some point. But, like, yeah, that's his first three directing films. And hopefully, if chapter two is good enough of Horizon, we'll get another batch that hopefully keeps the trend of this open range high that I'm now on, that I can't, you know, replicate with another Costner film because I have seen the other direct. I've now seen all of Costner's directed films as of right now. But, uh, yeah. And going from this point, our next trilogy will not have any westerns in it. It won't even have any postmen in it. In fact, it's a completely different genre. We are going back to. We're having another trilogy in line of a new release coming out. Andy, take it away. [02:23:02] Speaker B: Um, I'm blanking, actually. [02:23:08] Speaker C: You got Kev on the brain now. [02:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Kev'd out. [02:23:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So with July, we were focusing mainly on talking about Nichols and Shannon in honor of the bike riders, as well as talking about these three films in honor of Horizon, chapter one. And we'll definitely talk about chapter two in a quickie when August rolls around. We will. We are now fully committed to the costner directed journey. [02:23:33] Speaker B: Yes. [02:23:33] Speaker A: Whatever that leads to at this point. But in August, we are starting off with another big release that is coming out. One that, like, I am very excited for. As someone who has seen all the films in this franchise, all of them to the point where I am a bit cautiously optimistic. But I am very excited to see if this new sequel reinterpretation of this world can, like, jolt this franchise back to life. Andy, what are we talking about in August? [02:24:06] Speaker B: We are talking about. Well, I think. I think we may have just. We both just had a little brain fart there, because. [02:24:13] Speaker A: Fuck, yes, I love this. [02:24:15] Speaker B: Because we are talking about what you're describing, which would be the alien franchise. [02:24:21] Speaker A: Fuck, yes. However, that's late August. [02:24:24] Speaker B: However, before that, we're talking about the Deadpool trilogy. [02:24:28] Speaker A: That's right. [02:24:29] Speaker B: Because at the end of July here, we've got Deadpool and Wolverine coming. [02:24:34] Speaker A: See, in my brain. Yeah, the brain. The brain fart said, we must be doing Deadpool at the end of August because it comes out in August. No, you're right. [02:24:42] Speaker B: Yeah. But, yes, to your. To your point, we are basically indulging ourselves with pretty much the entire. Well, yeah, new releases and also pretty much the entirety of the alien franchise. [02:24:55] Speaker C: Hey. Hey, guys. Do you know what comes out on the same weekend as the new alien movie? [02:25:00] Speaker B: What's that? [02:25:00] Speaker C: Horizon in american saga, chapter two. [02:25:02] Speaker A: I bet it did. I knew as soon as you asked, my brain. Wait, Nick's gonna tell me that it's the same weekend? [02:25:09] Speaker B: Wow. [02:25:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [02:25:10] Speaker A: So, I mean, I'm fine with spoiling what we're going through in August, because, in all honesty, I've been. We're excited where we're catching back up. We're excited. [02:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah. We're kind of getting back in the groove again. [02:25:21] Speaker A: And to be honest, you know, Deadpool is also gonna be so fascinating to talk about, because, again, that is a franchise that at one point was never gonna be a franchise until someone supposedly leaked footage accidentally. [02:25:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:25:36] Speaker A: And is now at a point where people are talking about Deadpool as if they're going to, quote, unquote, save the MCU. What a weird. What a weird place we're at now, especially with superhero films. But, yeah. So, because of that, our first trilogy in August is going to be the Deadpool trilogy, which includes Deadpool, Deadpool two, and as well as Deadpool and Wolverine, the new release that, um. Huh, I hope is good. Yeah, yeah. [02:26:04] Speaker B: Fingers crossed. [02:26:05] Speaker A: Fingers crossed. [02:26:05] Speaker C: Cue. [02:26:06] Speaker B: Jack is back. [02:26:07] Speaker A: Jack is back. And do you think. Do you think it'll be the last time he does this? Do you think it'll be the last time he, Lee, comes back for this? [02:26:16] Speaker B: Man, I don't know how far to take, you know, the. The kind of jokes and gags about, um, you know, what Deadpool is going to do to the MCU and things like that. So we'll just have to wait and see. [02:26:29] Speaker A: I don't know. I just know that whatever the MCU Wolverine looks like, you better be five foot three short, King. I swear to God, he better be a little. A little monster. Because that's what he should be. [02:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [02:26:41] Speaker A: But. Yeah. So before we finish off the episode, Nick, thank you for joining us. [02:26:46] Speaker C: Thank you for having me. [02:26:48] Speaker A: And I will tell you, if we do another Kevin Costner trilogy, we know who to call immediately. [02:26:53] Speaker C: Well, I will be happy to come back. I was looking, actually, before I jumped on to record. I've seen 45 Kevin Costner movies, so I think. I think I can get to the 50 mark pretty easily, so. [02:27:06] Speaker A: And there's 182. Right. [02:27:08] Speaker C: There's quite a bit. [02:27:09] Speaker A: Not even. Yeah, I was gonna say he's got some. I mean, there's some that he's like, he's been around long enough. I don't think all of his films, especially in the eighties, are readily available. [02:27:17] Speaker C: Yeah, he did one where he's the voice or the internal monologue. I think of a dog that I'm gonna skip, but so what I think I could get. [02:27:27] Speaker B: So. Okay. Fair weather fan over here. [02:27:29] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's not live action, kev, so it's just. Just vocal kev, so. But no. Again, thanks, guys, for having me on. This was a blast. I'm so glad that that especially open range worked for you guys. Because I preach the gospel about that movie to pretty much everybody I know. So I'm glad. I'm glad it stuck. [02:27:52] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, we love having guests that are on that. I absolutely love the people we're talking about. Especially if they're ready to defend them. As if we were gonna trash. [02:28:02] Speaker C: No, and that's right. What this was. This was. This was. Yeah. Just a yemenite, you know, good discussion of, like, that guy's highs and lows. Because, I mean, he's. He's made some God awful movies, and there's no way around it. [02:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and, you know, Nick, it's also just genuinely great to engage with the senior community. So thank you for giving us that opportunity. [02:28:26] Speaker C: I walked right into that one. I set that one up for you nicely. Over the course of these last couple hours. [02:28:35] Speaker A: Yes. Andy's about to turn 38, and I'm 39. [02:28:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm going to. You know, my AARP membership will renew right before I go to Horizon, an american saga, chapter two. So I'll get my senior discount. [02:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah, but you can only fully get your discount is if you finish this quiz about Graceland. You have to watch the film. You have to watch both cuts? [02:28:55] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, I don't think the Kurt Russell cut exists in. I mean, look up. Look up the company that produced that movie. That's a fun story in and of itself. [02:29:05] Speaker A: As far as released the curtain. Yeah. [02:29:08] Speaker C: Hollywood. As far as Hollywood money moving goes. Look up franchise pictures. It's a laugh. [02:29:14] Speaker A: Okay. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Well, tune in on August 10. Did I get that right, Andy? [02:29:20] Speaker B: Yes. [02:29:21] Speaker A: For the Deadpool trilogy. But until then, I'm Logan Sowash. [02:29:25] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [02:29:26] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.