Episode 103: The Infernal Affairs Trilogy

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I'm Logan. So. [00:00:23] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [00:00:25] Speaker A: And on our trilogies, we take a trio of films rather tied by cast and crew. True thematic elements are just numerical order and we discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding each entry. And today, in case you can't hear from our, you know, our audio, it might sound a little bit windier because we're on a rooftop today in honor of today's trilogy. If you can also hear that there might be a gun at one of each other's heads, don't worry, that's also on brand for this trilogy because in case you don't know, Martin Scorsese's the Departed, the reason why I'm starting with that, even though it's not a part of this trilogy, is based off of a film out of 2002 called Infernal Affairs. Most people are probably aware of that by this point because the Departed won the Oscar for best adapted screenplay rather than original screenplay. [00:01:16] Speaker B: Well, that's just kind of like a popular little piece of film trivia. The Departed is a remake. Yeah. [00:01:24] Speaker A: I don't know if you could throw a rock in the Kino fan club circle jerk pond and not have at least one person bring that up. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Hilariously enough, even with the Internet and with knowing about Infernal affairs connection to Morris Scorsese's award winning film, most people don't know that Infernal affairs is not a singular film film. It is in fact a trilogy. Yep, that's right. We are talking about the Infernal affairs trilogy, which includes 2002's Infernal affairs and 2003's Infernal Affairs 2 and Infernal Affairs 3. Both I think released in like a six month gap in between or almost. [00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah. October to. No, October to December. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, Never mind. Two month gap. Hey, love it for them. Yeah, yeah. This is one that's been on the list for a hot second. This is one that we, you know, again, you're probably ad nauseam at this point to hear it. But, you know, there were certain trilogies where you think about why this, why we do this show and how much fun we have with it. And a lot of why we love doing this show is having these trilogies that we find out, whether in the process of looking for more episodes or just have in the back of our heads. For years and years. I've always been like, I wonder if these are something that are worth watching. [00:02:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:02:48] Speaker A: And then having the moment to be like, well, damn, I think it's. You know, maybe it's the perfect time to do it because actually, a few years ago you were gifted the Blu Ray set. [00:02:59] Speaker B: That's right, yeah. Yeah. Evan Dawsey, our friend of the pod over at Midwest Film Journal, he gave me the Infernal Affairs Criterion set and Venom. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Enthusiastic. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, that was. He gave me that in between season Steelbooks of the Halo TV show. That's been his, like, Christmas gift to me for a couple years. But, yeah, Infernal affairs has been on, I think, both of our radars for a while. And the Departed is. I fucking love that movie. And I'm probably in some minority by saying it's one of my favorite Scorsese movies. Yeah. [00:03:47] Speaker A: This will be a fun conversation because I've never seen it. [00:03:51] Speaker B: Really. Okay. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Might as well pull off the band aid. The thing about Scorsese. And again, I've seen a decent amount of Scorsese, but the thing about him that I think gets constantly lost in the conversation about him is that the man has a fucking filmography. And I know every director does, but, my God, Scorsese's filmography is the type of filmography where you can go for years thinking that that man hasn't made a film, and then you look at his filmography to go, wait, he did Hugo. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Realize that he's done shit. Every decade. There are just a few films that are just not Goodfellas. They're not Wolf of Wall street, they're not Casino. They're still great films. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:33] Speaker A: That are not gangster epics, but they usually get kind of mixed in the cracks. And hilariously, with the Departed, it just was. I think that was a film that. When that was popular and that film was winning awards, that film was pretty much thrown at me through cultural osmosis, AKA it pretty much was spoiled out the gate. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:56] Speaker A: The biggest moments that hilariously, even though that movie is an hour longer than Infernal affairs, lot of that film's biggest moments, of course, are taken straight from Infernal Affairs. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, pretty much the. The whole general plot. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's just. I think the biggest thing that the directors of all three films, which, again, it's wild to have a trilogy that actually has all three films directed by the same people youe would think that wouldn't be crazy, but it just really depends. But. But. And I apologize for butchering this. Anyone listening out there, Waikang Lao and Alan Mack, they are the directors. And then Alan Mack is one of the writers, I think he writes all three of these films with I think different people that help him write them with each one. Or at least Felix Chong at least helps him write the first film. And I think when they talked to them about the Departed, they had opinions on certain choices. There's a big change in the Departed that isn't, you know, they basically take two characters and turn them. Turn her into one. [00:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, Departed. [00:06:06] Speaker A: And I think they were like, I don't know if we really like that. And also, unsurprisingly, I think they said that too many fucks. Scorsese film. It's a little. It's very. It's much more graphic than this film is and a lot more crude. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:23] Speaker A: And which is actually, I think, good way to transition into the film itself. Because kind of the funniest thing is like, again, even though I haven't seen the Departed and it's been on my list for a while, I am very well aware from every single clip I've seen of that film because it's made by a fucking master, the type of tone and the type of energy that film is going for. And so going into Infernal affairs, it wasn't like I was expecting it to be exactly like, like the Departed. But when Infernal affairs basically reveals to the audience out the gate that it's going to be a lot more melodramatic, a lot more flashy editing wise than I was expecting. It is, hilariously, is a like going for high octane without it being super fast paced. It's pretty solid. It's like pretty perfect pace wise in terms of getting to the end. But like it does have slow moments sprinkled throughout. But like you couldn't tell with some of the editing choices. Some of the editing choices really just snap. You will get whiplash if you are not paying attention. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think like in the Western hemisphere we could kind of liken it to like kind of music videos, especially of that time of like the 2000s. Kind of like crazy motion blurry, you know, whippy edits and things which I haven't seen a ton of like Hong Kong movies, particularly like crime dramas from this era. But this just feels like maybe this was just kind of in vogue at that time in Hong Kong. It just kind of has that energy that like, okay, this is like what to expect from these, this kind of movie. [00:08:16] Speaker A: And to be honest, I love that. Yeah, that's. That is just not saying that the execution couldn't be botched in other interpretations of this approach, but I really like it, does put you into the mindset of what the, the creators are trying to go for in terms of the story, which. Oh my gosh, we're this far into this podcast and you might not know what we're talking about narratively. Well, let's get you into that. Both. I mean, again, so the Departed takes a lot from the Infernal affairs, especially the basic gist. Infernal affairs is basically about a gangster who goes into the police academy undercover to become a high ranking police officer. And then the inverse where a police cadet basically gets kicked out of the academy in order to get. Become a secret informant for the police. For the police. As a gangster. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah. He basically becomes like the deepest version of an undercover cop. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah, A gangster turned cop. And a cop turned gangster. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So parallel plot lines with two very. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Popular Hong Kong stars at this point, with Andy Lau being the gangster who becomes the police officer. And then Tony Long, who we talked about on the show through Wong Kar Wai's love trilogy, who plays the cop pretending to be a gangster. And it is, if anything, the best part about this movie is the fact that like after the initial five to 10 minutes, which is really, you have to like, keep in mind that you're going to see like, hey, you see all these actors you're just seeing right now who are playing these characters, there's going to be a 10 year gap. Yeah, this, these nice young men are now Andy Lau and they're now Tony Long. Just let it happen. And hilariously enough, when we were watching these, we watched these separately. I think one of the only things I sent Andy while I was going through these films is that I really wish I could skip a decade and just look like Tony doing anything. Yes, it is. It's. It's funny how the film really sets up at the very beginning. Like, hey, you know, this is, this is the gist of how these guys are gonna go. How are they gonna meet? You'll find out. But here's Sam. I think it's Sam Hong. [00:10:46] Speaker B: Is that the, the gangster Sam Han? Yeah, Hong. [00:10:50] Speaker A: And then, and then there's a special investigator, Shanghai who is like, like the go. The go through guy for Tony Lung's character. And there's, you know, they'll give you all the, basically all the set dressing, knowing everything you need to know foundationally, and then they'll just go right into the movie and you just, you're just along for the ride. Like. It is a film filled with double triple crosses. A lot of Gunplay. A lot of conversations about where bugs should go in terms of like, you know, conversations. And no, no gangster finds out you have a bug on you. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:33] Speaker A: A lot of Morse code. Was not expecting that with this movie. But that was a fun little change. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Of just using Morse code to, you know, let the police know if something changes. And then of course, having a gangster in the police force, them finding out themselves in this like constant circle of just constantly trying to find out and one up each other. And that, I mean, again, that is the. The plot is basically at one point the gangster turned cop finds out about the cop turned gangster and they are basically trying to find each other before the other one gets outed. And in the process of that, you get more about their, you know, their home life or quote unquote, home life. In terms of just Tony Lung's character there, I don't think you ever really see where he lives. I think you just see his, his gang, his. His crew. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Sam Hong. And just like his relationship with Sam. And also like, you know, I think the most you get out of him is his relationship with this like the chief inspector as well as an ex who has a child now and is now married. And it was like probably the closest person he had is like a. Someone he could have gotten married and had a kid with. But of course he's a gangster. [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:52] Speaker A: And so that just didn't happen. But yeah, going in to this film, it literally starts off and I had to look up the quote because it's like genuinely the most important quote of all three films is a. It opens with a Buddhist classic, I think for Nirvana, Sutraverse 19, where the quote is the worst of the eight hells is called continuous Hell. It has the meaning of continuous suffering, thus the name. And I think, yeah, the film. And in the first film closes with he who is in continuous hell never dies. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:29] Speaker A: And that continuous hell is permeate. Like it just permeates this entire trilogy because the biggest emotional pull of the movies is the fact that you are seeing two men who are being pulled with the idea of what a good or good and evil person is in terms of like, what is good, what is evil? Are they. Is it something so binary, something they could fit in? And it's hilarious because like the answer to that is no, because the, the gangster, the gangster character who's becoming a cop is now just like, he's not a bad cop, but at the same time he is in fact letting gangsters constant know what the cops are doing. So at A certain point. Yeah, he kind of is a bad cop in that regard. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Yeah, he's. I mean, he's very effective when he's doing his police duties. But yeah, obviously he's completely compromised. And it is interesting, the Continuous Hell thing, because I think that is pretty much like Tony Leung's character's experience in a nutshell is just like he's in this constant state of, okay, I don't get to live as myself. I'm in danger all the time. The cops want me dead, Some of these gangsters want me dead. If anything happens, if anything goes sideways, no one will ever know who I am or that I even exist. And it's this really kind of terrifying existence that. Yeah, continuous hell is a good word for. [00:15:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's great too because with. Because I believe his name is. I think Chan is what they constantly call Lung's character. I think that's his last name is Chan or it's like Chan Wing Yang. [00:15:26] Speaker B: They'll sometimes they'll call him Yan Yan and sometimes Chan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:15:32] Speaker A: The characters is. Yeah, Chong Wing. And he's. He is very much like the foreground example of Continuous Hell. Well, as Lao King, Ming, who's Adiela's character is basically, you know, the background, very subtle version of that. Because while Ming's character very much feels like, you know, what would he have to worry about? Like, he, he is, you know, no one suspects him. You know, he's been doing well so far. But it's hilarious when he really, when he realizes Tony Leung's existence, it almost seems like he is slowly self imploding. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Because he starts to realize that, you know, once, like, it's almost like a yin and Yang situation when there's one constant on the other side. And you wonder which side am I on? That is like, am I on the right side of this? [00:16:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:24] Speaker A: And it's very clear watching Ming's perform, like watching Laos performance. Who again, Andy Lau and Tony Long are like, definitely the best parts or like one of the best parts of these films. And it's no doubt, no surprise that like when you look at these three films, two is like this, I think, I believe the smallest has the lowest box office, mainly because they don't have long, which we'll get into later. But with, with them, they're just like. It is, it's interesting because when I think of the Departed. And again, it's great that you have seen it because you could tell me if I'm wrong or not, but like there's Never been a clip I've seen of Daemon or DiCaprio, especially specifically Daemon, where I'm not saying Daemon doesn't do a good job. Of course, everything I've seen of everyone in that film does an incredible job. There's never a part in that where it feels as tragic or as some, like, empathetic to a degree, of his plight as a gangster turned cop, as Ming's kind of version of that in the original film. [00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I think Andy Lau's character is a little bit more. The film is written such that he's a more empathetic character, whereas Damon's take on the character, which is probably more in the script than in Damon's performance, is like, yeah, fuck this guy. This guy's an asshole. Of course, DiCaprio is kind of an asshole, too. But, yeah, that is a distinct difference between this and the Departed is you're not that there is no empathy for the two lead characters in the Departed, but this film, at least I felt. I felt the kind of like, paranoia and desperation of their respective plights. Like, more personally, I guess, or emotively in this. Whereas the Departed is kind of like you're just watching a train wreck and you're like, oh, God damn, this is crazy. Love that movie. But that just seems like this film, Andrew Lau, or Waikung Lau, the director, feels a little bit more focused on, like, the two characters psyches and, like, how they're actually experiencing these events, which is a fun shift and something I didn't really realize about this movie. [00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, again, going into this movie, it is the big plot points, the big pressure moments in the Departed, I think have been thrown at me, even as a YouTube short. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Vanessa, look at it. So, like, it is interesting going into this movie and getting to the finale of Infernal affairs, which is the finale of the depart. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:25] Speaker A: And just feeling like, you know, I remember when I've. When I. The amount of times I've seen the finale of the Departed and thinking about, like, you know, the elevator scene and then watching the original version of it and being like, the feeling that I have is so different when they. It's conflicting. Yeah. It's like this. It's more of a conflict when you realize that Andy Lau's approach to this is that he believes in almost in the sense of, like, if he has so much bad karma in his life because he has lied to people who, like, the. The people who are supposed to, you know, serve and protect. Maybe going forward now that Sam, you know, spoiler Alert is gone. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Because at a certain point, just, you know, maybe he can actually do some good and almost get some good karma back and ultimately become the hero and the good. The good guy he wants to be. And that's also one of those things where I could understand why the creators or the directors and the writers were kind of like, you know, with the Departed turning Tony Lung's love interest and Andy Lau's love interest. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:29] Speaker A: Mixing them together because at least with allows love interest being his wife, who is a writer named Mary. It is. It is interesting. And again, another thing about the Infernal affairs that may put some people off is just how. How much it has its heart on its chest and it's, like, on its sleeve. Also its themes, like what it's trying to, like, marry as a character. I would say both the female characters in this are not bad, but they are here. Like, it does feel they're there to serve the internal plight of the male leads, especially the Therapist. Because, like, all the clips of the Departed I've seen, I will say the benefit of mixing those two together, I think it has a much more interesting dynamic having Vera Farmiga's character, who is, like, dating Daemon's character, like, a thing for DiCaprio. [00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:27] Speaker A: It's an interesting dynamic that I think, you know, in Infernal affairs, there is an implication that, like, maybe there could have been something between Tony Long and the Therapist. There isn't. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:37] Speaker A: Really. He's made an impact on her. But in reality, it's been mainly just like, this weird guy just comes in and sleeps on my couch. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:46] Speaker A: And then he just leaves and he just kind of, like, sad. He's. He's sad. I don't. Okay, I wonder what's up with him. And then I think at one point he says one or two lines that just, like, really stick with her. And then we get to the ending. But at one point, Andy Lau's wife, when it, like, basically is revealed to her that her husband is an informant for gangster for Sam Hong, she asks, like, she basically had the whole plot of the film is writing a. Writing a book about someone with multiple personalities. And she has this whole breakdown scene where she basically goes, I don't think I'll be able to finish the book because I can't answer. Does the protagonist see himself as a good person or are they wrong and are they a bad person? [00:22:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:37] Speaker A: Like, diluted, like. Like delusional. Are they, like, just, like, kind of, like, tricking themselves into thinking they're good? [00:22:43] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:44] Speaker A: And it's like, at that point, it's like, oh, I wonder what that's implying. Geez, I wonder. But, you know, it is something that, like, I. The dynamic is definitely very tight in this. I also like all the. You know, the secondary characters are a lot of fun, I will say. You know, and again, there's. There's only so much you could do now in retrospect, but, like, you know, Sam Hong, you know, that actor Eric. Eric Sang, does a really good job. And then I honestly. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. He's, like, devilish. Yeah. [00:23:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I would personally say I like him more in this next film we talk about. Because I think it's, like, it's hard, again, not to watch this and not think of the fact that, like, yeah, his adaptation. His. His adapted character is played by Jack Nicholson. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:37] Speaker A: And Jack Nicholson's, like, interpretation of that character to an extent in the Departed is just on another level. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, they're entirely different personalities, but, you know, I mean, Sam Hahn in this is like, he's psychotic and menacing, but in a, like, very. I don't know, deceptively childlike way, I guess. Like, he's kind of goofy and not very, like, immediately imposing, but then he'll, you know, he kind of switches on a dime and almost doesn't seem like he's totally there in a way. [00:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Which makes. Yeah. And I think with, like, you know, that character is. Which we'll find out is very much is built in the idea that, like, this is a charismatic person who is basically become the leader of. Of his gang mainly through circumstance as well as, like, very hard choices that have basically turned him into a worse person because. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:24:48] Speaker A: And ultimately lead him to be, like. Yeah. Very jovial with his people until he just, like, snaps on a dime and has scenes like, where he breaks Tony Lung's cast thinking there's, like, a bug in there, or like, when they, like, get arrested and they're in, like, the police interrogation room and there's, like, this whole table of food in this boardroom. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:10] Speaker A: He just, like, pushes it all aside and just makes the biggest mess. And it is. Yeah, I. It's interesting because I feel like the most that we're gonna have to talk about is probably in the sequels because of how the sequels are trying to not even one up this film. That's the most interesting thing, too, is I think 2 and 3 are really trying to one up this film or be like, no, make something even better. It almost feels like they are just, you know, enforcing and trying to add on to all the themes, characters, you know, ideas. Yeah, all these things that, like, you know, I think are perfectly fine and how they're handled in the first film. But, like, could you develop them more in other stuff? [00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But that is the interesting thing about these sequels is that they're not really. Yeah, they're not really like going for, obviously, since the. I mean, the. Well, we'll get into it. But the, the second one being predominantly a prequel and. Well, I guess they both are kind of. Anyway. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Well, yeah, it's. [00:26:25] Speaker B: It's just weird because these, the two sequels are kind of just serving to like, embellish the story we already know and kind of add background details, which is, I suppose, an interesting concept for subsequent stories set with the same characters. But the funny thing is, I feel like the first film, you know, there's nothing really. I was like longing for that. It didn't have that. I was like, oh, I wish I knew more about these characters or why they did that, or yada yada, yada. Like, it's a very self contained, fully functional, highly effective thriller and dissection of these two different people. And so it's funny that the kind of central conceit of these two other movies is, well, what if we just knew more about them? It's like, okay, sure. [00:27:24] Speaker A: And what's so funny about that too is like, in my opinion, which we'll get more with two and with three with one specific character. But like, I feel like the things that I would like to know more about are not really. [00:27:38] Speaker B: Not really addressed. [00:27:40] Speaker A: And then it's like, oh, that's fine. But like, why are they here? [00:27:44] Speaker B: Right? [00:27:46] Speaker A: Like, the thing is, is like a lot of the intentional stuff, it feels like in this first film of not having too. [00:27:53] Speaker B: More. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Lore for Indy Lau and Tony Long is the fact that, like, these are two talented actors. And again, we talked about this a lot with Long and want. The one Car Y trilogy is that you guys, these guys can look off screen in a way that is just. It exudes years of pain and suffering and a backstory that will never get a longing that you're like, God, just see a man who's been through so much. And Andy Loud does the same thing in perfectly. In his own way, which makes it so much fun that like, I think the, the magic trick of this film is that it's not. You get Tony Lung for a while and then there's a lull because there's no Tony Leung. You have two actors who are so goddamn Good at what? They do that every time Tony Long is off screen. Oh, boy. Laos back on. [00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:48] Speaker A: And then every time Laos on and then goes away, Lung pops up and it's like, well, that's perfect. Having them both as protagonists to commit to that. And to be honest, I think Two even has that in a much more surprising way than I expected. And then when Three kind of tries to do that again in a much different way, I think it. It just. It's a bit of a flop. Doesn't fully. It's not a full waste, but it is very much for one specific character in particular, which we'll get to. It is. It is. It feels like you don't really need to be. But I know why you. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I got. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just like Infernal Affairs. It is no surprise that, like, you know, this is. This is absolutely a trilogy where the, you know, the high, like, the critical acclaim of this trilogy is basically a. All Infernal affairs are mostly Infernal affairs that leads this huge shadow against two and three. [00:29:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Just like, very much so. The brainchild of. You have Andrew Lau and Alan Mack, who are basically, like. Once Infernal affairs comes out, I mean, if. I think if you look up the amount of, you know, films or projects or television shows that have basically, like, come out in different countries, like the Departed is not the only adaptation of the story. [00:30:11] Speaker B: No. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Technically, there are multiple others in different countries. And I'm pretty sure in the last 10 to 15 years, there was another one like, this is such a classic story, in a sense, that you could see this being brought back again and again in future decades in different ways. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And it does. It has that kind of quintessentialness to it. Just the basic story of it. [00:30:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Cause it's basically the very bare bones. A good guy who's actually bad and a bad guy who's actually good. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Very high concept, like, easy to visualize. [00:30:48] Speaker A: And really, if it's like, in a Departed sense, where I feel like the Departed handles it from what I've seen in clips in a lot more cynical way, where it's very much just like, you know, DiCaprio's character is constantly having panic attacks. He's very violent. And I would even argue that every time that they say Tony Leung is violent in this film, it is nowhere near the same type of violence as Leonardo DiCaprio in a Scorsese film. [00:31:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:14] Speaker A: Exudes that energy. [00:31:16] Speaker B: Yeah. The funny thing about, like, this movie versus the Departed is. Or the thing that, like, strikes me the most is, you know, if you were to boil down their actions, like, sure, you could probably make an argument that either of these characters, Andy Lau's character or, or Tony Lungs, are bad people or pieces of shit or, you know, like hard, rough, highly flawed individuals. But like, when watching the Departed, I kind of just feel that way the whole time about both characters. I'm like, both these guys, you know, they don't deserve everything that's happening to them, or Maybe at least DiCaprio doesn't. But they're both kind of dickheads. Like. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:58] Speaker B: And it's just such a funny difference in approach that, you know, like you said, is. Speaks to kind of Scorsese's trademark cynicism in a lot of his stories, kind of reflecting the wickedness of people in a lot of his stories. And Infernal affairs is a little bit, a lot, a bit more empathetic about both journeys. And just the fact that it uses that continuous hell quote is like, okay, clearly we are here to observe the suffering of two individuals. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it is, it is. Basically 2 and 3 are like, you like that quote at the beginning of the film, we're gonna really dig, dig a little deeper as to why this film needs that quote. [00:32:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:45] Speaker A: Or why we think the quote is perfect for the film. And just like it has, it is. It is a film that, again, the first like five to ten minutes are basically like talking to the audience about like the wants and needs of our two leads, what the premise of both our leads are, who the bad guys are, who the good guys are, at least the people that are aware of the scenario. Because the big, I would say the biggest, you know, tension, besides who is going to find out who exists first, is the whole fact that Tony Leung's undercover cop Persona is basically only known by two people. And at the very beginning of the film, like when we get into modern day, one of those two people are dead just because. [00:33:33] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:33:34] Speaker A: And so the whole time you're like, well, if that other guy goes like, dies, how the fuck are they anyone gonna realize that he's actually a cop? [00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:46] Speaker A: Not just like a full blown gangster. And I do think the film is trying to make Tony Lung seem a lot more scrupulous or just like very dingy and dirty. I mean, he just looks dirty the whole time, but he's just. [00:34:02] Speaker B: He looks strung out. Yeah, yeah. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Tony Long could look like he'd been rolling the mud for like, I think five hours and he would still look like Tony Long. Like, it don't really change as much. But, like, the big moments, I think, are like, when they get. Is it. It's. It's. They get cocaine from. Is it Taiwan? They get cocaine. They get cocaine through. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:24] Speaker A: Out of the country. And of course, Tony Long snorts just. [00:34:30] Speaker B: And you. There's like, There's. He has the energy of like, I need this. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Yeah. He. He's. He's a man that is constantly. Just in terms of. Compared to Lau, I do feel like Tony Leung's character has a lot told to the audience and to him just like, how much of, like, a scary guy he is. Well, as Andy Lau, you can see why this guy is threatening because he comes off so chill and nice and yet has his secret little ways to get back to the gang. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:03] Speaker A: When shit's going down and leads to, I think the third act being just, you know, even though, like the one specific thing that really kicks off, like the third act, like the reveal in the third act about, you know, Tony Lung figuring out about Andy Lau, while that is basically just. That is telegraphed like 30 minutes prior. [00:35:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:26] Speaker A: In the best way possible. It's still delightful because of the way that Lao and Max shoot it and because the movie shot well, even though it's edited like a music video from the 2000s, I think it's shot well. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:39] Speaker A: There's a lot of rooftops. It's not the only film. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Great. Rooftops. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Basically from the get go, there are secret meetings that happen on rooftops. There are cell phone conversations that happens. There are gunpoint showdown betrayals. [00:35:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:54] Speaker A: There's even graves on what look like rooftops. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:57] Speaker A: So. Yeah. You know what I'm talking. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Like the police, the dearly departed hall of fame or whatever. Feels like they're our most trusted heroes. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Which, in case you don't know how, the Departed or this film. And spoiler alert, when Tony Long's character gets shot. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker A: He. When they. They basically. Andy Lau makes the choice of, you know, revealing to the public who Tony Long was in hopes that revealing that information can bring Andy Lau one step closer to becoming an actual good person. [00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:34] Speaker A: At this point, we're like. And again, hilarious that he thinks that when he, you know, killed one of his gangster buddies, like another. Another underground secret gangster who was a cop that he didn't even know about. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:49] Speaker A: When he kills him and basically pins it all on that guy, still lying and being deceitful, even when he believes it's the right thing to do in order to keep him alive. And. Yeah. I mean, the Movie is great. I think it really does hold up well. Especially Do Me Again. Two decades later, it is still really just like you can. There's no surprise why Criterion has the whole trilogy in a box set because it's like for this film alone and just for like having the Andy Lau and Tony Lung of it all, like it's just a. A great cast that does really well with either what little they're given or what like the amount that they're given. Like in terms of Tony Long, Andy la's case, which is a lot. [00:37:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:31] Speaker A: And you know, Sam Hung and this like the special, the special investigator played by Anthony Chow, Song Wong, he. [00:37:40] Speaker B: Oh right. [00:37:40] Speaker A: He's really good. And I think it's. Did not realize he was the. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Gosh, yeah, we can't believe we went this long without talking about him. Yeah. Anthony Wong, awesome. [00:37:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's because the reason why I feel like we don't have to talk too much about him, you know, after Infernal Affairs 1 comes out and is a huge success in Hong Kong, it just has star power, it's sold well. People are just like, you know, raving about it. It's one of those films that like, even before the whole process of like the Departed becoming a thing, the film is getting picked up by Miramax to get kind of like distributing in the States. Other countries are seeing how popular the film is. It's clear the Lau and Mack that like, holy shit, if we really strike the iron while it's hot, if there are some ideas we really want to dig into, now would be the time to do it. So in the span of a year we get two and three. And you know, going into this trilogy initially with both of us being blind in terms of like what 2 and 3 were about, I personally was curious as to like, how do you churn out two films so fast? [00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Let alone like, you know, because I mean, think about like how most films like nowadays if you have a hit on your hands, it's like, cool. Got three years at least, maybe four. [00:39:08] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:39:09] Speaker A: How are they going to get that out fast? The answer to that in terms of how you get two and three out of the way away in a year is honestly pretty ingenious. Because what basically happens is Part two is a full blown prequel that doesn't include either Tony Leung or Andy Lau. Because the very beginning of Infernal affairs, like I made a joke about earlier, those two characters are played by younger versions in their police academy days as cadets. And so Infernal Affairs 2 is basically following those characters, but through those actors and then at the same time that is being shot. [00:39:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:52] Speaker A: Infernal Affairs 3 is a prequel sequel, a Godfather Part 2 esque way where it basically follows Andy Lau's character during the aftermath of Infernal affairs while following Tony Leung in the past as he. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Takes on his first six months before. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's like, it's like eight or nine months after Infernal Affairs, I believe is when Andy Lau stuff happens and then Tony Lungs is like six months prior. [00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:27] Speaker A: And. And again, I feel like that's a. This is not gonna be the last time we talk about the fact that Infernal Affairs 3's timeline is so all over the place, just all undoubte by the time you get to the end, where even I am confused in a way that I never thought I would be with the series in terms of what is when and how much time is before. Because it is. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Because again, the choice that three makes, and we will get to that later to do a prequel sequel is clear that like, you know, even though the impact of the end of Infernal affairs absolutely is weighed upon the fact that Andy Lau's character makes it and pretty much gets away scot free and Tony Leung pays the price by getting shot in the head in the fucking elevator is like, well, damn, both of these actors rule. We could have. If we get them both, we can't have them both back unless we find this real tricky way to do it. And then of course they're like, oh, prequel, sequel, Godfather 2. And it's like, oh, perfect, cool. But before we get to that, the reason why I don't think I've talked about much about Anthony Wong's character, at least on my side of things, is because in my opinion, the strongest stuff in A Federal Affairs 2 has nothing to do with Tony Long or Andy Lau's young characters. Yeah, it has everything to do with Anthony Wong's character as well as Eric Sang as Sim Hong. Like the. It says a lot when Infernal Affairs 2 opens. And again, insanely ingenious how the First Infernal Affairs 2 opens with a, you know, kind of a monologue from Anthony Wong's character. And there's almost a part of the back of your head where almost thinks that it is going to be a young version of Tony Long's character that he's talking to. And then lo and behold, it isn't. He is talking to Sam Hong because he's trying to get Sam hung in 19, I believe, 1994 or 95. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:27] Speaker A: He's trying to get him to rat out other gangs or other members and in his own gang to basically give him some immunity from the cops. And thus Begins Internal Affairs 2's very weird, but honestly works the best, I think, of any kind of new idea in Two's idea to have the relationship be between the pseudo professional friendship between a gangster and a special investigator. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, that is. Yeah, that is the biggest feather in this film's cap because like I said earlier, there's not a lot that I needed or wanted, like the first one didn't give me or that I would want expanded upon. But, yeah, I think the secret sauce that they found in two to make it worthwhile was. Okay, what if we, like, color Wong's past with some interesting shades of, you know, criminal nuance and things like that? So he definitely gets. Comes out the best in these sequels. Wong does. [00:43:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Because again, it's like what we get, in my opinion. And again, it is something that, like, it could be taken for interpretation a way where I can see this people liking these aspects in additions to it. But anytime we go back to Tony Leung's character Yan, Andy Lau's character Ming, as young men, I think the stuff they add to young Yawn is just, like, wild. The fact that it's like the whole time in the first film is basically implied that Jan's an orphan. [00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:10] Speaker A: And that, you know, that kind of adds to his loneliness is the fact that not only is he a cop pretending to be a gangster and he snorts coke and he's got apparently anger issues, but also he has no family to talk to or anyone to really confide in. Infernal Affairs 2 as this thing that goes. Oh, by the way, during Yan's first few years as a gangster, he finds out he is the illegitimate son of a gang that, like, is. Well, because. Yeah. Because again, In Feral Affairs 2, it also implies that. That Sam Hong. In the 90s. In the 90s, the gang. The gang dynamic was that they were like six different gang lines. Lords that work together, I guess. [00:44:55] Speaker B: Right. There was like, a group. Yeah. [00:44:59] Speaker A: And one. But one of them is clearly the strongest, which is, of course, the family that Jan is from. Illegitimately. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:08] Speaker A: So, like, a lot of Yawn's initial gangster stuff is basically being tied to that family and that family. Basically, it realizing who he is and admitting him to the family and basically be like, I see you as a brother, as a son, and just kind of like, that is not Saying that isn't interesting. It can be interesting. But I do think it does take away. It has. It has the. It has the energy of, like, you know, in a Star wars sense, if you have a character who's really good at something, like, oh, my gosh, they're really good with a lightsaber in the Force. They must be a natural talent. And then you go, oh, by the way, they have a really powerful lineage. Doesn't necessarily take away from, like, all the stuff we've seen them do, but it does belittle kind of like the. The nuance in, like, the underdog, you know, kind of low character. [00:46:04] Speaker B: Yeah. It takes a little easy to root for. Yeah. Root ability away. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Huh. And then you have. On Ming's side of things, I would argue Infernal Affairs 1 ends in this really interesting way where, like, it feels ambiguous to Ming's suffering in the audience sense, where the audience can feel bad for what Ming is doing. Like, Ming is at in his life, but he's willing to change, so therefore, there's some hope there. Or you could look at it with a bit of cynicism and be like, this man is just gonna keep being a rat, right. Until he is caught. And then you get to Infernal Affairs 2 and all the stuff they added. Ming's backstory honestly makes him look like a fucking psychopath. [00:46:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:46:47] Speaker A: It's kind of hilarious how two, I don't think, ruins what one does, but I do think it does put a little bit of a damper on a lot of the decisions made. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:58] Speaker A: And ultimately leads to three where I just. We'll get to that when it comes to Andy, when it comes to Ming. But it ultimately becomes, hilariously, a film where Infernal Affairs 1, I think, works at its best when Tony Leung or Andy Lau are on the screen. Or best if they're both on the screen. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:18] Speaker A: And then infernal. Infernal Affairs 2 is hilariously, anytime those two characters show up on the screen, it's fine. [00:47:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:26] Speaker A: You're like, oh, that's cool. But it really is. The show shines hilariously enough. Infernal Affairs 2 is a film that shines through its secondary characters and the secondary characters that are returning from the first film, because anytime the film basically dedicates time to them, there is so much more engaging dynamics. It's at a point where, after watching the first film, I thought Sam Hong was a cool character, but it's very clear that if you're gonna put him up against Jack Nicholson's Interpretation of that character, to an extent, it's. It's no contest. [00:48:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:04] Speaker A: But then you get to Infernal Affairs 2, and the amount of development this man is given to the point where the. One of the final things he does is genuinely shocking in a way that is like, okay, I'm all in on this, man. This guy is an absolute bastard. And I really dig him. This, Like, I really dig these choices they're making of him. And really adding to, like, his two is, I think, inherently more cynical than one. Yeah, in a lot of ways. And I think it really adds to the benefit of having that. Because one feels so ambiguous at times. [00:48:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:39] Speaker A: With how you're supposed to feel about Ming and Yang. And then by the end of two, it's just like there's this error of, like, yeah, they kind of won, but we know what happens in 2001 or 2002. Like, it really. We can't really pretend like we don't know. [00:48:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. [00:48:58] Speaker A: It's really. It's a fun ride, I would say. It's like a solid. It's a solid three out of five, I would say. And I think it's. It looks as good as one in a lot of ways. It has. You know, again, it's the same team behind this, Alan Mac and Felix Chong, who also wrote all three of these films, but they, of course, the same writing duo throughout all three of these films is read. So again, there's. There's that consistency of it. This doesn't feel like it's a writer brought in being like, what if yon had a Dynasty angle to him? Like, they very much are trying these interesting ideas that I feel like, you know, I can see why they add that to Young, because when the film ends and that dynasty does not exist anymore. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:49:45] Speaker A: It adds to yon's suffering and as to why he's such a sad Tony Long, like, three years. [00:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:53] Speaker A: And and then also as to, like, how Ming is a character who is just so disconnected. He has disconnected the police aspect of himself as well as the triad aspect of himself that he can make such horrible decisions like me, like, psychotic choices, and not be. Especially at that young age. Feel like he's done something wrong. [00:50:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:19] Speaker A: And ultimately gets. And his. The ending of his story is uncomfortable, in my opinion, which is basically when he meets his wife. His future wife. [00:50:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:30] Speaker A: I don't. I don't like the fact of anything I can. I. And I'm not trying to dominate this, Andy. So you can absolutely take over at any point. But I will. I want to say this. At least I'm okay with that in the dynasty aspect of Yan. I'm okay if you want to make Ming as a younger man a little bit more sinister. [00:50:49] Speaker B: Sure. [00:50:50] Speaker A: But when you make Ming's love interest or at least the person that he fonds of a woman, Sam Hong's wife, who is named Mary, and you make it that he just has a thing for women named Mary to a degree. I don't like that. Yeah, that's like the one thing that makes me feel kind of gross in. [00:51:12] Speaker B: A way that it's like, yeah, I. [00:51:14] Speaker A: Know what you're trying to do. I just don't like it. [00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like two looks at his character arc in one is like, he's too sympathetic. We need to like make him kind of a psycho. [00:51:29] Speaker A: Let's show Ming's boy era. Because, like, this is also. Again, it. It hit. It almost hits hilariously in a way that it's not supposed to, where it's like, well, Ming is like getting, you know, a lot of praise for being a good cop and also praise for being a good rat. [00:51:47] Speaker B: For. Yes. [00:51:49] Speaker A: You get a random cut into a scene where Yan realizes that his girlfriend aborted their child because she doesn't want a child with a gangster. And then Young's best friend, who is. He's a character who's in all three of these films in some way, shape or form. I gotta remember his name. I gotta look. Oh, my gosh. Let me see if I could pops in in my head. Well, basically, he's like Sam Hong's other right hand man. Other than. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Is it silly? [00:52:25] Speaker A: It's silly. [00:52:26] Speaker B: Silly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his nickname. Silly. [00:52:29] Speaker A: Yeah. He pops in during this moment where Jan just realizes that his girlfriend. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, just. [00:52:36] Speaker A: And then he goes, it's just an abortion. You can get another. You can have another kid. It's easy to make and I'm not. What a time to. What a. Wow. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:48] Speaker A: Okay, so this is. This is the. This is all I'm getting from. Because I was also kind of like curious about. Oh, with a prequel, maybe we'll actually get to see more of the relationship with that woman who clearly was in love with Jan but didn't want to stay with him because he was a gangster. And then of course, at the end of one, she's at his funeral sobbing with her child because clearly there was still some just right love for him in that aspect. And then I was like, oh, maybe we'll get more of that in this. No, unfortunately, if you are a fan female character in an Infernal affairs film, there's not really much for you to do. I. Mary has. Mary. Sam Hung's Mary has more to do in this than probably any of the other female stars in the rest of these films. But, like, even she kind of feels like, you know what. Where are we going to take this character? Especially since, well, yeah, she's not in one. So clearly, something doesn't go. [00:53:48] Speaker B: Something's gotta happen. [00:53:49] Speaker A: Yeah, something does. And hilariously, the reason why that happens makes you go, well, that's a. That's. I think that's another point towards continuous hell for Ming. You should deserve to go that. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Right? [00:54:00] Speaker A: And then, like, then you get to Sam Hong and, like, his whole. His whole, like, just grieving the whole third act with him basically just wanting to die because it's like, I'm sick of playing. Playing this game. If you wanted to take me out. [00:54:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:17] Speaker A: Taking me out at this point. And then, of course, you know, the. The special investigator. There's this whole thing about the fact where, like, Mary's big thing, because we don't really like. What kicks off this whole film is that in the mid-90s, Ming is tasked with shooting Yan's father. We ultimately find as Jan's father, illegitimate father, his father. And then, of course, Jan's father's oldest. Who is God? His name escapes me. Oh, yeah. Hao. It's like the Hao family. [00:54:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:54:58] Speaker A: Knowing how and who that actor is, incredible, I think, is one of the best parts about this film. I think it's Anthony Chow, Eric Singh, that Francis nun. I believe. If I butchered that, I apologize. But he's great in this movie. Those three are the trifecta where anytime they're on screen, I was like, okay. I'm getting why this has got a criterion version, other than the fact that it's attached to Infernal affairs, because it's fun to see a film that goes, by the way, you know that guy that wore mismatched socks in the first film, and it was kind of silly when he was called out for it and also took a little bit of a fall off a building. What if he was one of the main characters and then he watched two, and you're like, this is actually pretty goddamn good. I like this. [00:55:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:44] Speaker A: And then. But then it's hilariously a film where goes, oh, let's go see what Ming's doing. And it's like, I don't. I don't care. About what Ming's doing. [00:55:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, he's being miserable. Cool. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah. What's Yawn doing? Oh, he's just there with the family. He can't really make any moves like, like, you know, Cuz. Yeah. Yan's biggest moment, I think in the film, in my opinion, is when his oldest, his brother dies, his brother sees that there's a wire attached to him. [00:56:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:13] Speaker A: And like showing that like, you know, the how family is basically going to crumble in his mind because Yan has been a cop the whole time. Informant. And then like, again. And that's not saying anything against Yawn and Ming actors. I think both those actors do a really good job with what they're given. And I actually think I could see the argument that like, this film, like, is worth existing solely to see these actors actually get something to do with this character other than like one walking out of a gate and one longingly looking outside the gate. [00:56:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:56:45] Speaker A: Their whole thing in the first film. But it is unfortunately, it's. It's just. It's kind of. It's a little bit of the inverse of Infernal affairs where it's like anytime they pop up on screen, it's not the excitement like seeing Andy Lau or Tony Lung, it's just like, ah, these guys are going to be really good in these scenes and they're just not going to be given a lot. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:57:08] Speaker A: And that unfortunately just kind of keeps running through especially Yon's character. Yan's actor and Young's character feels like he is given the short end of the stick. [00:57:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:57:18] Speaker A: Development. And unfortunately that does not change in three. In fact, I would argue it's even worse. Yeah, Andy. Because I'm kind of said enough about two before I even want to think about three. I want to hear more of your thoughts that I haven't like. [00:57:37] Speaker B: Well, no, I mean, honestly, the reason you mentioned a minute ago you like didn't want to domineer the conversation, but I was glad you had such a clear memory of everything because I am realizing as I knew before we started this conversation, but I'm realizing as we're talking how fuzzy my memory of both 2 and 3 is. So 3 will be interesting because that movie I could feel myself forgetting as I was watching it. But yeah, two, I don't have a whole lot else to say other than I think you're right that, I mean, as we've said, Wong kind of gets the. He's the most interesting sort of element to this movie. And then beyond him, the other supporting characters who become kind of more prominent characters in this. And. Yeah, it's just. It's just kind of a shame that the movie that's clearly designed to like, embellish our two heroes or our two leads from the first film doesn't have a whole lot of anything interesting to say about them other than Laos Care that Ming is maybe more of a piece of shit than you thought he was. [00:58:58] Speaker A: I will say before I do think it is interesting in feral affairs 2. It's not a big. It's hilariously a very big part of the background, but doesn't become prominent till the end. But it's the fact that the. The time frame of this movie is the transition of the introduction of the People's Republic of China. [00:59:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:19] Speaker A: Or like the transition from British rule, at least. Hong Kong. [00:59:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:23] Speaker A: Going into kind of like a new. Like, Basically Infernal Affairs 2 ends with like the country and the city being in a different spot than it was at the beginning. Almost implying that like, you know, with this new step as a country leads to the step that will ultimately lead into the events of Infernal Affairs. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:41] Speaker A: It's a new step for Yan Newstop for Ming Special. You know, the special investigator as well as Sam Hong. It just like it's now, like now there. It's like the next chapter in their story and chapter that we're aware of. [00:59:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:59:56] Speaker A: And I really appre. I really like that angle of it in terms of just like. Like it being a part of the story but not being like domineering. It's in a lot of like the radio chatter. It's in a lot of like talking about the. The time frame because like. [01:00:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:11] Speaker A: Starts years prior and then I believe it ends in 97. I think it's like 94.95 and then ends in like 97.98. And it is one of those things where I feel like. Yeah, like there's. This is a film that I feel like if you're going through this trilogy like we did for the first time. [01:00:30] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:30] Speaker A: I feel like you will have a lot of fun with this one. But will things get retained in your brain in terms of what happens plot wise? I mean, it depends. Like, I really think if anything, like, I. I don't think it cheapens the first film in any way, shape or form. But I do think it's interesting that it's. That Lao and Max version of a sequel is basically. Well, there were. You found out at the end of Infernal affairs, there was like there was actually more Gangsters turned cops than you thought. [01:01:03] Speaker B: Right. [01:01:03] Speaker A: Guess what? Infernal affairs, yawn. Is not the first gangster, like, cop turned gangster. There are so many fucking informants, cops that are a part of the gangs. And like, because there's this one, like, intimidating dude in two that is just like every time he shows up, you just think he's gonna beat the shadow yawn or beat the shit out of somebody. And ultimately he is actually an undercover cop. [01:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:28] Speaker A: And you just keep finding like, oh, I guess the whole process. Because it's like, I don't think In Infernal Affairs 1 it implies that Yan is the first person to ever be like, put in this position. No, but. But at the same time, it is funny how many people. Like, it seems like it pops up in two. And then in three, there's another one like that where it's just like, oh, by the way, this guy that you've kind of been scared of the whole time has been very mysterious. He's been mysterious because he's actually a cop. [01:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:56] Speaker A: And it just like keeps happening like that. It feels like. And it's. And yeah, it's ultimately a sequel that I think at its best really gives the secondary characters a lot to chew on in a way that I think that. And that actually does kind of reinforce their likability in the first film as well as the kind of their performances in a way that kind of helps retroactively be like, oh, it's worth watching too, in a way. But at the worst case scenario, I would say Infernal Affairs 2 is a sequel. That's it. That's it. That's like. It's like, there's really. It is a prequel that is. Yes. But it's like, very much so. Like, clearly is just trying to build upon the things you've already liked in that first film and can't really do much in terms of big swings because, you know, at least 4, 5, 6, 7, a lot of these characters do come back. [01:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:54] Speaker A: And yeah, it's like, oh, look at all these new people. I'm assuming that something's gonna happen. And well and behold, there it is. So Infernal Affairs 2, like Andy said early in the. Early in the pod came out in October of 2003. And then just two months later, we get Infernal Affairs 3, which, if I can give this movie anything and people can't see what I'm doing right now and Andy can kind of. I am closing my eyes and just trying to process how to really sell this movie, this is a film that is again, a prequel sequel, where the sequel aspects are from Andy Lau's perspective and the, the prequel aspects come from Tony Lungs. And it is basically a prequel sequel that is trying to fill up literally the gaps leading up to one from the end of Two and then just basically having a sequel that is just like watching Andy Lau's character deteriorate. It is a very psychological film in a way that I was not expecting. And in a way the film, I don't even think really expected itself that. To. For the audience to really think about that until it starts getting really weird towards the end. But I will also kind of agree with Andy in terms of talking about these sequels, especially with three. This is the one where I really was starting to just like lose track. And, and it's not. It's. And it's hilarious because again, there is this interesting kind of aspect when you talk about films that are non linear where it almost feels like when you say something like that we're basically saying that we're stupid. And I will tell you right now, that is to be determined. It's always, you know, I, you know, be an eye of the beholder. But I will tell you now that I have. We have both seen some weird for this show. [01:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:58] Speaker A: And for just in our personal and otherwise. Yeah, yeah. I've seen Primer. And I would argue that that makes more sense timeline wise at times than. [01:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:09] Speaker A: Inferil affairs. Because Inferral Affairs 3 basically goes like. It goes 18. It goes like six months, nine months after the events of Infernal affairs and then goes six months before Infernal Affairs. And then it'll go to 11 months after Infernal affairs and then we'll go to five months before Infernal affairs. And then we'll keep going back and forth. And sometimes it'll show a little bit of when they were kids before Infernal Affairs. And it's like this whole back and forth where like, if you put it on a graph, it just kind of has this energy where it's like, if anything, this does not feel like they were making the film and they go, fucking this isn't interesting enough. If you take it chronologically, let's just edit it to be non linear. And then like, maybe it'll feel more engaging to the audience by like this. I feel like it's intentional that it's like this. Clearly with Mac and Chong being back at the script like bead writers again, because it basically the whole reason why it's like this is Like Andy, Andy loves Ming, has been on probation or has been doing a desk job post the Infernal affairs because of the events at the end of the film. And now he's come back into eternal Affairs. It is basically discovered that there is another mole maybe for the gangsters since he's been gone. [01:06:35] Speaker B: Right. [01:06:36] Speaker A: And he must now he is trying to stop it, but also deal with the fact that, oh, you know, he is now he's a gangster turned cop with no gang to go to because everyone's dead from that gang or just in certain sense. So he starts to self implode and in the process of self imploding, he starts to become obsessed with Jan, played by Tony Long, and starts to really try to almost understand and then ultimately want to become him, almost yearn to become Yawn. And in the process of trying to, you know, do all these things at once. We are getting flashbacks back to Yawn's first mission as Sam's like Sam's right hand man, which is hilarious. [01:07:30] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:07:31] Speaker A: That Yon's first mission for Sam after being with him for, I believe four years, is literally six months before the events of Infernal affairs. Because there's an implication in Infernal affairs where it feels like he's been Sam's right hand man for years. [01:07:49] Speaker B: Right. [01:07:50] Speaker A: And yeah, it really is like, weird to be like, oh, by the way, I know you've been with this guy for three and a half years, but now is your first assignment to really prove yourself. [01:07:59] Speaker B: And hilariously enough, what have I been doing all this time? [01:08:02] Speaker A: And hilariously enough to really just with the timeline of things, it almost implies in Infernal Affairs 3 that Sam is aware of Yan being an informant in a way. Yeah. And so it's funny to watch Infernal Affairs 1 now. [01:08:19] Speaker B: Like, oh, Sam knew the whole time. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah. When Sam is genuinely, like trusting of Yawn for the majority of it, the only time he really seems like he's mistrusting Yan is when he has the cast. [01:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it breaks the cast. Yeah. [01:08:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Which ultimately, you know, proves everything's fine because Jan hit the. Hid the bug somewhere else. [01:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:08:41] Speaker A: But it is, it is just like it feels very much. Well, we can't make a trilogy if, you know, Tony Long this fast. If Tony Long and Andy Lauer in both films. And we have to have them back. And to be honest, like, Infernal Affairs 3 made more money than 2, clearly because of. [01:09:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:02] Speaker A: Right now, like, it's no surprise that people came out to three because probably Infernal Affairs 2 got like. Because again, the biggest issue in two with those characters is not with the actors in reality, it's honestly with the writing given. [01:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:17] Speaker A: But then three, you get them back. And really it feels like Tony Long is being hired to sit in a chair and just stare at people. Well, Andy Lau is basically meant to just fuck around until he goes mad. [01:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:33] Speaker A: And pretty much try to be like. And it's. I mean, and it. And it's, I believe, the longest film out of the three of them. [01:09:42] Speaker B: Very. [01:09:42] Speaker A: Maybe. [01:09:42] Speaker B: Well, it's two hours. [01:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me look it. Literally, I think. Yeah. Hilarious. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:48] Speaker A: Hilariously enough, Infernal Affairs 3 is only one minute shorter than 2, but Infernal Affairs 1 is like hundred minutes. [01:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Both those sequels are considerably longer. [01:10:00] Speaker A: And to be honest, I would say Twos length, pacing wise, is felt by a certain. [01:10:05] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. And three drags majorly. [01:10:10] Speaker A: Three. Three is like. I like because I watch these. I'm pretty sure because you watch these in the span of like a decent chunk of time in between all three. [01:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, over the course of a week and a half or something. Yeah. [01:10:24] Speaker A: I watched Infernal affairs one on a Saturday. I watched two on a Sunday, and I watched three on a Monday because I was like, oh, I would like to maybe the freshest mind. [01:10:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:10:35] Speaker A: And by the time I got to fucking three, I am nearly falling asleep. [01:10:41] Speaker B: It burns you out, man. [01:10:43] Speaker A: It does. Because at a certain point, like, if anything, it. Because I am someone who genuinely believes. And again, this is. This is coming up more often than not now, especially in like a Star wars sense because of like, andor being so goddamn good. But like, I'm a firm belief that like, a film like Infernal Affairs 3 doesn't automatically make one worse because of its weird decisions. That it. [01:11:09] Speaker B: Well, no. [01:11:10] Speaker A: And you know, a prequel doesn't necessarily make it. But that also doesn't mean. If Infernal Affairs 3 does like a. Like, does stuff in the past that's really cool, it doesn't automatically make Infernal One better. [01:11:22] Speaker B: Right. [01:11:23] Speaker A: Affairs is Infernal Affairs. [01:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:25] Speaker A: And I brought up a door because it's like. And. Or being good doesn't automatically make Rogue One better. Rogue One is Rogue One. [01:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:32] Speaker A: Kind of sticks to that. And it's very clear with Rogue One that they never had two seasons of a Disney plus show in mind. Mind. [01:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:11:41] Speaker A: Everything out in that one. And there's a lot of franchises that kind of have that conversation where it's like, you know, People will be like, well, retroactively. Now this is worse. Now this is great because it does this. It makes up for this. And it's like, no, it doesn't. [01:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:11:55] Speaker A: It's like the film is the film. And I think Infernal Affairs 3, with that in mind, makes some decisions that I feel like cheapen the cool. Some of the cool. Ambiguity. Ambiguity that is in one pertaining to Ming as a character. [01:12:13] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah. [01:12:14] Speaker A: I think it very much turns Ming into more of a antagonist or an antagonistic force than he even is in the first film. Which again, makes sense because he's losing his mind. [01:12:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:28] Speaker A: But when it is revealed in three that this whole time his brain has just been tricking him to basically his brain starts to believe that he is. Yawn. [01:12:39] Speaker B: Yeah. He kind of buys into his own delusion. [01:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And while this whole time you're thinking, okay, maybe this man is crazy, but, hey, maybe he's right about this guy being a mole. And maybe he'll just, like, he'll. Maybe this will help him go through a divorce and go through this and go through that. [01:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:57] Speaker A: I don't know. This whole time, like, his reveal of like, this tape that. That has this new guy, which. This new guy is like a character that has, like, apparently been around timeline wise since. Yeah. I think it's like an inspector, I think. Chen. Chen, I think, is what his name is. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:16] Speaker A: He has been around since the first film and just hasn't been. Hasn't said anything. [01:13:21] Speaker B: Right. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Apparently is revealed that, like, while he's very mysterious and has very much the same air as Ming did in terms of like, there's something he's clearly hiding. Shen Chen is actually. He is a. He is a mole, but for a different government organization. Like, he's. Yeah, he is, because he's an. [01:13:46] Speaker B: He's an undercover cop from mainland China, I think. [01:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:50] Speaker B: Rather than Hong Kong. [01:13:52] Speaker A: And then there's a guy that looks like he's from the Matrix who you know. You know I'm talking about. [01:13:59] Speaker B: Yes. But he's just like a blur in my brain. [01:14:02] Speaker A: He. He basically is the one that is like his higher up. He's like the special. [01:14:06] Speaker B: Right, right, right. Yeah. [01:14:08] Speaker A: And then like, the whole thing about Yan's whole story is that he basically yawns. Yawn's story is supposed to introduce this Matrix looking guy. And then by the end of Yan's story, you find out literally days before the beginning of Infernal Affairs. [01:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:27] Speaker A: That Jan has discovered that he is not the only informant in his division. Like, he basically finds comrades to an extent, and then that's basically it. Like, he just. He just basically finds people that are like, oh, I thought you were a bad guy the whole time, but actually, you're pretty cool. I like that I gave you a limp and you shot my arm. That's why I have a cast in one. [01:14:53] Speaker B: See, we're even. [01:14:55] Speaker A: See, it's like. It's a cycle. [01:14:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:59] Speaker A: It just comes. It just comes right back. And. And I honestly think, like, of three, the most entertaining stuff is probably the Tony Long stuff. But even that is, like, it's entertaining on a baseline. Like, it's fun to see yon have something to do, I guess. [01:15:18] Speaker B: Sure. [01:15:19] Speaker A: You know, Tony Lung can play this character and not have to worry that he's gonna get shot in an elevator again. [01:15:25] Speaker B: Right. [01:15:25] Speaker A: Like, he has a little bit of plot armor that you can at least see what he's learning through other things and other people. And of course you see him. It's. It's very much the prequel. Like, no one really asked for this, and the people that did ask for this. [01:15:39] Speaker B: Can you please explain why did you ask for this? [01:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, we really need to see Tony Long. Like, really get to know the therapist that he never uses until the very end of the film. [01:15:51] Speaker B: Right. [01:15:52] Speaker A: And then the. And then the movie, it pushes really hard that, like, oh, he kind of has a thing for her. And it's like, wow, I have. I have two eyes movie. They're both very attractive, and they seem like they kind of vibe. Well, emotionally. [01:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:07] Speaker A: I'm not. Call. Call me crazy. I. It makes sense. And it's like Tony Lung. I think it's like Tony Lung's story. The Yan story is so simple in comparison to, like, Ming going down a psychological rabbit hole that leads him to. [01:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:27] Speaker A: Have a dream where he sees himself talking to Yang. They're like. I think it's like one of the most iconic shots of the movie, which is basically two therapist chairs almost back to back kind of diagonal one another. And it's Tony Long on one and la in the other. [01:16:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:42] Speaker A: But it gets to a point where, like, since Mary is apparently separating from him, you can't get any interesting dynamic in terms of, like, him trying to repair his marriage. His marriage is already falling apart, and he doesn't want to fix it. He is constantly not sleeping. So to be honest, it's not really surprising that he is, like, going insane by the end of it. [01:17:01] Speaker B: Right. [01:17:02] Speaker A: And by the time you get to the end of his story, it does have this energy of just like, look, do I think he kind of deserves this a little bit? Yeah. But I feel like it ruins. I. I think it genuinely is something where it's like, this doesn't really make it. I don't. I. [01:17:22] Speaker B: It's not more interesting because he's more wicked or troubled or twisted. It's like it just kind of. It's. In a way, it's kind of just like misery porn, you know, to. I don't want to call it character assassination, but it's just like. It's just doubling down on. On a perspective on the character that doesn't. Doesn't enhance the character at all. It's just it. Yeah. [01:17:51] Speaker A: And also, does he really get any kind of comeuppance or karma come back to him if he doesn't even believe that he is himself? [01:18:03] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [01:18:04] Speaker A: Himself is yawn. So by the end of it, like. [01:18:06] Speaker B: He gets to plead insanity. [01:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, this does meet into the first film's opening, which is a concert. [01:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:18:17] Speaker A: Series of continuous suffering in a continuous hell. [01:18:20] Speaker B: Right. [01:18:20] Speaker A: And I think it perfectly captures, if anything, I think the best part of Three, it sounds silly to say is the ending, mainly because it is. It is interesting how this idea of continuous hell, it is, I think, permeates into the. Into the structure at the very beginning. At the very end. Because the very end of Three is basically the very. Is the beginning of One is after. Because the whole flashback, early, younger parts of Yan and Ming are like the prologue. [01:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:52] Speaker A: But when the film actually starts, the first film starts with a stereo. Like a scene in a stereo shop that's actually really good and really, I think, adds to, like, shows just how much Yang and Ming are charismatic in their own ways and how they basically. In another life, they probably could have been friends. [01:19:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:11] Speaker A: And to, you know, have that in mind as things kind of go the way that they. They do ultimately to get to the end of Infernal Affairs 3, where it ends at that same exact stereo shop scene. And the fact that, again, that they shot this only a year after the first film, so it feels. It doesn't feel outdated how they shoot the stereo. It literally looks like they could have just shot this in mind for the first film and just use that as the ending block. [01:19:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:39] Speaker A: And so it's like, really? That's a cool. Honestly, I will give that movie props. I will give Three this. I love the fact that once Three ends, you can basically go back to one. And it's a cycle of continuous suffering. It is a Continuous hell for these two characters that, you know, while the first one I think is very. Has that ambiguous, like the ambiguity that really adds to the engagement in that first film. By the time you get to three, I don't feel like there's any real. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Engagement to the choices or really any ambiguity. [01:20:11] Speaker A: I feel like if you like, I, I would even argue you could go on the Infernal Affairs 3 wiki and see how they do the plot. And I think it's just as confusing. [01:20:18] Speaker B: Oh yeah. I've been like, trying to read it back as we're talking about it and I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I don't remember this stuff or if it just doesn't sound right in this format. [01:20:29] Speaker A: And again, it's like, it's one of those things where, and I've said it time and time again on this podcast, I'm the type of person person where if you swing for the fences and put your whole heart into it, like as a, as an execution way for, for a piece of media, especially for movies. [01:20:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:20:48] Speaker A: Even if it doesn't fully hit, I will always appreciate that you tried and for anything three, I do appreciate the fact that they tried to do nonlinear psychological drama that is genuinely not a re. It's not a retread of two and it's not a retreader one. It's not a retread of the other films. [01:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah, no, they're. [01:21:10] Speaker A: These films. [01:21:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:11] Speaker A: Are pretty unique in their own ways. [01:21:12] Speaker B: They're all trying to cover new ground with the characters, however fruitful or unfruitful that ground is. [01:21:19] Speaker A: Yeah. We have a, we have a fun. We have a fun. Basically looks like a 2000s alt rock soundtrack album cover for the first. [01:21:27] Speaker B: First film. [01:21:28] Speaker A: We have like a, looks like a species esque poster for the second film and then we have like a Gap ad for the third film. So again, there I. There is again I. I love the fact, if anything, that the creatives of the first film were able to be the creatives for all three of these movies. [01:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:51] Speaker A: That is something that is like not only in the director's chair, but also the writing chair, like as writers. And also the fact that they were able because of such a turnaround and also how popular the first film is. They got lung back, they got loud back. They pretty much any character they wanted to bring back from that first film they could and they did. [01:22:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:22:11] Speaker A: But that also means that like, you know, those characters are so much fun and yet when you add more People into the mix that are like, oh, by the way, this person's been here the entire time. [01:22:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:23] Speaker A: Have a bit on screen. Canonically. Canonically. They just didn't show up. All this is going down because it has to do with mainland stuff. And this is a mainland stuff. [01:22:32] Speaker B: Right. [01:22:34] Speaker A: Okay. Like, whatever. Like, it's. It is very much. I do think three is disappointing. [01:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:42] Speaker A: I don't think it's a horrible film. And I would even argue. No, not that bad of a movie. I just think it's disappointing. But fine. [01:22:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:53] Speaker A: Like, it's worth a watch at this point. If you watch one and two, there's no real reason not to give three a shot. And if you watch three and you're like, us. And you're like, I don't. That movie just ended. And I think I've barely remembered what happened. Well, you can join our club. Like, that's unfortunate. Happens. But there. I have no doubt there are people out there that really enjoy three or really appreciate how bold and different three's approach is to the narrative, especially with the psychological aspect to it. [01:23:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:24] Speaker A: And I wanted to bring this up, and I told Andy before we started recording that I was gonna do this, but as you know, since we're both really cool guys, we have letterboxd accounts and. Do we both keep up it at the same pace? No, Andy definitely keeps up with it more than I do. I usually. This is just a lot of inside baseball. I like to do, like, five to six films in a row. [01:23:47] Speaker B: You'll, like, batch it out. [01:23:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I batch it out, like, two. [01:23:51] Speaker B: Weeks after the fact. [01:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:53] Speaker B: I. [01:23:53] Speaker A: The. The thing that I love about our friend Adam, who has nothing to do with this trilogy, but I must bring it up. [01:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Is that that man can get out of a theater seat, and before he leaves the theater, he's got at least two paragraphs, or he's three sentences. [01:24:08] Speaker B: Instant. Yeah. [01:24:09] Speaker A: And I love that for him, genuinely. There's nothing wrong with that, because I. But I'm just like. There is a part of me where I'm envious because I cannot be that way. [01:24:18] Speaker B: Depending on. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's interesting you say that, Logan, because. Because I feel like maybe not in the written word, but at least in, like, formulating your thoughts and being able to verbalize them. I frequently feel like when we see movies together, you're, like, immediately able to pinpoint where you're at, and I'm like, I gotta think about this for a little while before I can even say. [01:24:44] Speaker A: You know, I very. [01:24:44] Speaker B: That's very. [01:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I think. Yeah. I really think it depends on the movie. Sure. You've had those moments too. I think, honestly, the best times where you both have it seem to be films where we're on different sides of the spectrum. [01:24:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:24:57] Speaker A: Or we're like. We're trying to figure it out. I remember Civil War was one of those movies where we. We were on different sides of, like, how we felt about it. But we both were so passionate about, like. But there's just this thing in the. [01:25:10] Speaker B: Back of my brain, something I gotta talk about. Yeah. [01:25:12] Speaker A: Yeah. It's like. And I'm like. I kind of like it, I think. And you're like, I might hate it. It's like this kind of back and forth on that. But I wanted to bring that up because I rarely. I think I. I rarely get replies to my reviews. How you are, Andy? [01:25:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Pretty infrequent. [01:25:30] Speaker A: Yeah. But. Yeah, for me too. But like, when I put up my Infernal Affairs 3 review on Letterboxd, which I think it's like a two and a half out of five. It's. It's solid, but it's very forgettable and disappointing. I said that. Thank God the Departed doesn't take really anything from this movie. And one guy, a guy that I've never met before for love. The Internet just goes. Agreed, for the most part. But if you look closer, there are actually a few nuggets of ideas here that are somewhat replicated to Marty's remake. Basically saying. I think at one point he said, like, hey, listen, I agree for the majority of it, but I disagree that it has nothing to do with Departed. So I wanted to throw these similarities to you or at least this guy's defense of the symbol. Like what? [01:26:18] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. [01:26:19] Speaker A: Connected to. And see if you agree. The most obvious being the conclusion of the character allow. Which was basically condensed into one scene at the end of the Departed. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Okay. [01:26:30] Speaker A: I guess it depends, but because at least I know how Matt Damon goes out. [01:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. [01:26:37] Speaker A: I don't remember seeing Mark Wahlberg and Scruffs and. [01:26:40] Speaker B: Right, right. [01:26:42] Speaker A: But okay. Mary Lau's wife having a baby, which is similar to Madeline getting knocked up in Marty's film. And even the scenes of Chan beating people up viciously out of nowhere was somewhat imitated the way that Billy does in the remake. Yeah, but that's more, I think, one kind of. In anything. [01:27:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:27:03] Speaker A: Because there's a. There's a bathhouse scene where we see the aftermath in three of Yawn. But like, it's not really brought. It's another thing where it's like, John, you're so crazy, man. So much blood on you. And it's like we didn't see. [01:27:16] Speaker B: See him fight, right? [01:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah, barely. Like, he does beat someone with a cigarette, with an ashtray. [01:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:25] Speaker A: He only does that because he's told to do it through Sam. It's not like his own. [01:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, like, it's. [01:27:31] Speaker A: It's like it's. It's an order rather than just like an impulse. Speaking of John, the whole love scene he has with the Psychologist is definitely something that inspired the remake to have Billy bone marrow version. How do you feel about that? [01:27:46] Speaker B: You know, honestly, I mean, I think of what I'm reading here. I'm reading the comment as you're. You're. Yeah. I feel like the letterboxd account, the. The Psychologist or Therapist Madeline Parallels is probably like the most. The strongest thread that I would say is, like, okay, that's something that, like, you could say they folded from these movies or the sequels into the Departed, but even that, you know, that's a pretty small detail, I guess. And the other things feel, like, kind of incidental, I guess. I don't know. [01:28:28] Speaker A: No, I was just curious. But Peter Pevensey. Peter Pevens, if you listen to the podcast. Thank you. Honestly, thank you for your. [01:28:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:37] Speaker A: Again, it's. It's something that is like. I kind of had a feeling that the Departed might have taken. I would assume the best part about the Departed being this late or, like, a few years after this film is that they could basically take whatever they wanted out of. [01:28:51] Speaker B: All right. [01:28:53] Speaker A: Clearly, it's mostly Infernal Affairs. [01:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting because, like, I went into these movies under the impression that, like, the Departed was kind of like a condensing of all three into, like, one single linear narrative movie, which is really not the case at all. I mean, 95% of what happens in 2 and 3 has no bearing on the story of the Departed, aside from. Yeah, I do think, you know, the Psychologist stuff with Madeline is a pretty good pull, as Peter pointed out. [01:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. But, yeah, that's the Infernal affairs trilogy. [01:29:37] Speaker B: That is the Infernal affairs trilogy. [01:29:41] Speaker A: It is something that I. I think we both are not surprised that, like, when people talk about these movies as a trio, it's usually talking about how much one is good, and then you have to really pry out of people. What do you think of 2 and 3? [01:29:56] Speaker B: If you've seen it. Yeah. [01:29:57] Speaker A: If you've seen 2 and 3. But I do think as a trilogy, it is a trilogy that if anything. Yeah. Again, more that I can give to 2 and 3 is 2 and 3 don't feel like cash grabs. [01:30:10] Speaker B: Oh, definitely. [01:30:11] Speaker A: In a way that it's like. I really enjoy that aspect of it because there is. We are will no doubt in the future, probably cover trilogies that have no doubt cash grabs involved in some way, shape or form. Because it's. It's hard not to. When you have a successful first film, it's hard not to have, you know, this pressure on you that you have to do another one if you. If you want to do something else. [01:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:30:34] Speaker A: Constant stories of how creators didn't really want to get pigeonholed in certain genres or even in a franchise and ultimately end up doing that because it's like, what else? They're like basically being pushed into a corner. What else are they gonna do but just, like, give the studio what they want. [01:30:50] Speaker B: Right. [01:30:51] Speaker A: And I think it's phenomenal that these films just have this energy of. They make Infernal Affairs. Everyone really loves Infernal Affairs. And they go, you know what? We could do another. Or better yet, hear me out. Sit down on this nice, lovely rooftop with chairs on it. [01:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:08] Speaker A: Maybe we make two more and we just do a trilogy. And then ultimately you get three vastly different films. [01:31:14] Speaker B: Yes. [01:31:14] Speaker A: Again, we will probably talk about trilogies in the future where there are probably going to be at least one or two films that feel just like this the other, because. [01:31:24] Speaker B: Right. [01:31:24] Speaker A: If you have a formula that works, chances are studios just want you to do it again. [01:31:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:31:31] Speaker A: But bigger and better. And. Yeah, these were just. This was a fun thing that I'm glad that I think you suggested more than anything, because you've had the box. You've had the box. And we had a bit of a. We had a bit of a spot where, you know, we have ideas of other trilogies and other stuff that we're going to cover in the future that are tied to other episodes as well as just tied to new releases. So I think it's fun to kind of just be like, you know what, let's take this moment. We just talked about Schwarzenegger being pregnant, so at least we could do is pull out a trilogy we've wanted to watch for a while. [01:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I sincerely thank you for carrying this episode with your memory of the plot of each film, particularly 2 and. [01:32:17] Speaker A: 3, which was funny too, because it was like a little inside baseball for everyone listening. I got them. I got the dates Wrong in terms of what we were going to record. [01:32:28] Speaker B: All right. [01:32:28] Speaker A: And so I watched him way before Andy did. So I was worried going into this episode. Hilarious. That I was going to be the one that had to be carried. But yeah. So now that we have Infernal affairs out of the way, and it was a blast to go through Infernal affairs, we actually are going to be doing something a little bit different. We are taking a extended break. This is our first episode in June. And of course, we have another episode planned for June, but we have to have our episode a little bit farther than we kind of want it to be. Mainly because this trilogy is tied to a release. [01:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:33:08] Speaker A: Will not come out until right before we want to record the episode. [01:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah. So this will be our first trilogy of the year tied to a new release. Well, tied directly to a new release. We did the Rise of Hess, which was in time with a new release, but did not include a new release. But this trilogy features a new blockbuster. [01:33:33] Speaker A: And in case people are wondering because again, there's another big film coming out next month that is going to be, you know, technically could we could do a free colon just putting it out of the way. We are not gonna do a free cool on Jurassic World Rebirth. We will probably do a review or talk about it together. Yeah, but that's not gonna be like a. [01:33:54] Speaker B: Might do a quickie or something. [01:33:55] Speaker A: Yeah, probably a quickie. Because to be honest, if Rebirth does well enough, we'll probably be back in like six years doing another fucking Jurassic World. [01:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, but the Rebirth trilogy, Jurassic World, Rebirth 3. [01:34:10] Speaker A: But yeah, we saw about a year or so ago, I think Andy was the one that really brought this to me because for years and years back in the early 2000s, there was a horror film that basically shocked a sub genre in a way that it basically changed how we looked at this monster for decades to come. [01:34:35] Speaker B: Yeah. To a point where started a craze. A whole new craze. [01:34:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Started a craze that ultimately is now, you know, I think kind of been pulled back more because of media that has kind of brought back the traditional sense. But there was a zombie movie in 2002 that basically introduced the idea of rage induced. These horrifying running, scary, growling monsters that would come at you, zombies that would run. Seems so silly how that would be such a genre change. Until you see the film. [01:35:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:35:12] Speaker A: And you understand why. And because of how goddamn good that movie is. And how that movie made was such a success at its chance. Was very pivotal for the change in that Sub genre films. There of course was a sequel made of that film years later. But weirdly enough, for years and years and years, it seemed like they always wanted to make a third film but never was able to. Maybe it was because nothing kind of came in. Or maybe there was an idea that they really thought was worthwhile too far, fully do it. Or maybe a studio didn't want to fund it because to be honest, zombies as a sub genre have kind of just. Yeah, it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the years. But now we live in a post OG I have to say, OG now because there's so many spin off shows post OG Walking Dead, post Train to Busan, basically kind of reviving people's love. [01:36:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:11] Speaker A: Zombie story to an extent, showing like an international version of zombies. [01:36:17] Speaker B: And when we've got the last of us rekindling that popularity. [01:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So zombies are back. And so it almost feels perfect to bring this series back. But not only just bring it back, bring it back with its original director, original cinematographer and its original writer. And that is 28 days later, 28 weeks later. And then the film that we are basically, you know, the reason why we're doing this is 28 years later. [01:36:46] Speaker B: Right. [01:36:47] Speaker A: Weird. We are doing what Andy has coined because I think I wanted to call this the 28 trilogy, but it doesn't really give a lot of. [01:36:56] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it is. [01:36:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I think Andy has a better coin of it, which is the 28 days, weeks and Years trilogy. It is a, a trilogy that follows 2002's 28 Days Later. Is it 2008? [01:37:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. [01:37:15] Speaker A: Let me look up. I'm definitely not on IMDb right now. Give me one second. 2007. [01:37:21] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:37:22] Speaker A: And then of course, this year's 20. 28 years later. And so we're going to be watching a film trilogy that is two plus decades old. We are going to be discussing, you know, the evolution as well as the kind of the timeline aspect of it. Because what's so fascinating is that, you know, there's only a five year gap between days and weeks. [01:37:47] Speaker B: Right. [01:37:48] Speaker A: And then there is a, there's an 18 year gap between weeks and years. And then we'll also kind of talk a little bit about the fact that we might be seeing more of this franchise going. [01:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah, 28 years may be setting up something else. [01:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we might be in the wrong and we might just have a 28 years later trilogy. See, until it happens. But no, I'm really pumped actually. [01:38:15] Speaker B: The trailers for 28 years have been great. [01:38:18] Speaker A: Incredible. And it's the fact that Danny Boyle. [01:38:21] Speaker B: Yeah, he's bad. [01:38:22] Speaker A: Alex Garland, who for, like, after Civil War was basically like, I'm done making movies. [01:38:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:38:28] Speaker A: Basically. Has had one of the biggest film, like one of the. Seems like one of the best films of the year for many people. Warfare. And then is also writing. Returning as writer for 28 years. [01:38:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:41] Speaker A: As have him back. And I also talk about, you know, I would assume, again, we haven't seen years yet, but I'm very. I'm assuming it's going to be very interesting to talk about how the cinematography has evolved. Evolved from. [01:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:38:55] Speaker A: Style of the original. [01:38:56] Speaker B: I mean. Yes. 28 days or. Sorry, go ahead. [01:39:02] Speaker A: No, Gears looks like the crispest. Like the crispiest film. [01:39:06] Speaker B: Yes. [01:39:06] Speaker A: In terms of its cinematography. [01:39:07] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [01:39:08] Speaker A: 28 days probably be the nastiest too. [01:39:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I showed 28 days to my wife Emma a few months ago. And, yeah, it's. I was. I had forgotten how just fucking crusty that movie is because, I mean, it's early digital and it's intended to look that way. It's not like, you know, they just had a shoestring budget. They, you know, they wanted it to look lo fi. And it does. And I had forgotten how absolutely, like. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Realistic in a very 2000, early 2000 way. [01:39:45] Speaker A: I actually just rewatched it last night. [01:39:48] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:39:49] Speaker A: Like, I'm finally back in the rewatch of it all. And it is. Yeah. 28 days later. There are some interesting aspects of that movie, especially with the third act, but that iconic opening first, like 20 to 30 minutes, is something where it's like, no wonder every studio or like, so many creatives were like, I just need to take. I want to do that. [01:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:14] Speaker A: I want to have that energy and really just talk about how interesting it is, how 28 Days basically popularizes and starts fast zombies. 28 Weeks capitalizes on that. And then how much Fast Zombies as a part of the sub genre ebbs and flows throughout the year. And ultimately we're now at a point where they're back with 28 years. But how much different is it now, you know, 20 years after its inception to it. [01:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:40:44] Speaker A: But. Yeah, that'll be the 28th. [01:40:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, June 28th. [01:40:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So tune in on June 28th when we cover the 28 days weeks and Years later trilogy. But as always, I'm Logan, so. [01:41:02] Speaker B: And I'm Andy Carr. [01:41:03] Speaker A: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.